Great high school sending kids to mediocre colleges?

[angela in ohio]

I would be concerned that:

 

1.) The guidance counselors are terrible

2.) The colleges are seeing something lacking in former students.

3.) The colleges are seeing something lacking that those ranking high schools didn't see.

4.) Test scores for students are low in a specific area (a local private school, for example, lacks depth in math and science while being highly rated overall.)

5.) The students are passive and not well-rounded enough or don't have enough outside interests to interest better colleges.

 

Some of the crummiest PSs around here manage to get 2-3 (or more) kids into the competitive state school here each year. I would be concerned about a school that couldn't do more than that. 

Edited July 4, 2016 by angela in ohio

[snowbeltmom]

There may be many reasons to choose a college that does not do research, but I wanted to comment on the bolded. Professors just researching and not teaching has not been my experience - neither at the public research university where I teach, nor at the top ranked university my DD attends.

 

:iagree:

My son just completed his freshman year.  Every single class he took this year was taught by a professor, many of whom were world-renowned for their research.

[FaithManor]

:iagree:

My son just completed his freshman year.  Every single class he took this year was taught by a professor, many of whom were world-renowned for their research.

Yes, this.

 

My son attends U of MI. I know there are lots of stories that abound of research professors letting TA's do everything, bu in our experience with one U of MI alum and one current student, every class, every single one, has been taught by professors, and professors have had ample office hours directly helping students. The TA's have done small group learning type things like labs, or administrated study groups, and some tutoring. They have not by any means ever been in charge of teaching.

 

It probably happens. Somewhere out there. I have personally been a TA at an LAC that ended up having freshman music theory, and the gen ed fine arts appreciation courses entirely dumped on me while professors went off and did their own thing, literally not giving an ounce of time or effort to those classes. I've been the "TA Professor", but still, it seems like it was a total anomaly as most of my friends that went to grad school never had it happen to them.

[bettyandbob]

 

 

It probably happens. Somewhere out there. I have personally been a TA at an LAC that ended up having freshman music theory, and the gen ed fine arts appreciation courses entirely dumped on me while professors went off and did their own thing, literally not giving an ounce of time or effort to those classes. I've been the "TA Professor", but still, it seems like it was a total anomaly as most of my friends that went to grad school never had it happen to them.

It's hard to know whether a professor is teaching and how actively he teaches. I'm sure what brother experienced years ago still goes on today. My brother was taking Chem E at a large nationally recognized research university. He had a chem E course taught in a lecture hall. Well over 200 students enrolled. The professor simply came in and lectured . He did not post office hours and made it clear he was not available. One day he came in and before lecture and "I know some of you are having trouble with the problem sets. I'd like you to work them out amongst yourselves. I'm doing research. Do not approach my teaching assistants either--they work for me. " So, the course was taught by a professor, not a lot of effort in teaching was made by him. This is something you wont know just by researching whether professor's teach.

[hornblower]

Interesting to read about your US exp with profs & TAs. Have to wonder if there's any data being collected about who's actually teaching in your universities? 

It is definitely an issue in Canada. "it’s estimated that more than half of all undergraduates are taught by contract faculty."  

Academia's Dirty Little Secret & another cbc story on same topic. Mind you, our experience has sometimes been that the contract faculty are superior teachers - &  because their positions are precarious, they frequently are creative, flexible, and helpful, or they get fired. Gifted academics and researchers are not always gifted educators. 
 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

My kids have never had a class not taught by a professor. The only time TAs have been part of the course is in recitation sections.  

[Gwen in VA]

Dd went to a top-ranked LAC for undergrad and a top-ranked research university for grad school. She is SO thankful she went to a LAC for undergrad -- one where teaching and helping undergrads do research was the primary focus of the profs.

 

As an undergrad, dd had fabulous internships and wonderful research opportunities. She didn't get anything published, but she had enough research experience that she received an NSF grant during her first year of grad school (which paid her stipend and research expenses for grad school -- and her monthly pay was significantly higher than the others in her department who depended on standard research grants for funding.....)

 

As a grad student, she did some TA'ing. She was dumbfounded by how little interaction the students had with the profs. She loved both her undergrad and grad school experience, but she is very thankful that she spent her undergraduate days at a school where the focus was truly on the undergrads.

 

YMMV

[8filltheheart]

As another data point, my kids have attended public universities ranging in size from 8000 UGs to 30,000+ UGs.  They have had no problem forming relationships with their professors.  Ds's professors at Bama have been great mentors.  They also had no issues with being very active in UG research.  

 

My kids have never felt that UGs were not the focus.

 

But....we also actively investigate depts.  We have encountered a few depts where the schools were eliminated from the list quickly.  One was a top research university where ds was informed he had more research experience as a high school student than their UGs b/c their focus was on the grad students.  (Research was a high priority for ds, so that school was immediately removed from his list.) Another was immediately removed from the list when no answer could be given as to what recent grads were doing.  If a UG advisor or dept head cannot tell you what recent grads are doing, they are not engaged with their UGs.

[creekland]

As another data point, my kids have attended public universities ranging in size from 8000 UGs to 30,000+ UGs.  They have had no problem forming relationships with their professors.  Ds's professors at Bama have been great mentors.  They also had no issues with being very active in UG research.  

 

My kids have never felt that UGs were not the focus.

 

But....we also actively investigate depts.  We have encountered a few depts where the schools were eliminated from the list quickly.  One was a top research university where ds was informed he had more research experience as a high school student than their UGs b/c their focus was on the grad students.  (Research was a high priority for ds, so that school was immediately removed from his list.) Another was immediately removed from the list when no answer could be given as to what recent grads were doing.  If a UG advisor or dept head cannot tell you what recent grads are doing, they are not engaged with their UGs.

 

My research U boy has never had problems forming relationships with professors or others.  Today he's shadowing one of his favorite mentors in neurosurgery.  It's not their first time together.  Many at the hospital are surprised he's not a med school student or resident with as often as they are together.

 

When we were at school for graduation there were oodles and oodles of professors/researchers (and staff) who came up to us letting us know they enjoy our son with specific details as to why.

 

The key lies with the student.  How much effort do they put forth to form these relationships?  How much are they interacting?  All three of mine (two at LACs and one at the research U) are willing to take those first steps and build upon them - genuinely.  We've found that professors truly enjoy assisting students who are eager to learn and willing to help out.

 

I agree with your last paragraph too though.  Investigate what options are available at any particular school.  My research boy picked a school where roughly 80% of undergrads are involved in research.  His school thrives on it.

[FaithManor]

Along the lines of the original discussion, ds was telling us that one of best buds at U of MI was accepted to Princeton. Finances were very tight so he opted for UM where he would only have a small student loan - not even the full stafford. Thankfully, he seems to be very happy with his choice. The high school this student hailed from was one of the best in Michigan so I would imagine that his choice hurts that school's statistics.

[daijobu]

I want to point out that TAs aren't necessarily worse teachers than their professors.  Stanford has one of the best CS departments in the world.  Their introductory programming classes are taught by professors but the section leaders are undergraduates.