Different priorities and trade-offs

[luuknam]

Obviously, different kids and different backgrounds would lead to different preferences, but *in general*, which do you think is preferable?

Edited June 13, 2016 by luuknam

[wintermom]

I think that there are a lot of variables to factor into the decision. Finishing an undergrad while still pretty young (around 18), knowing you'd probably head directly into graduate studies or another degree (vet/MD/law) might make good sense for certain students. Finishing high school at around 18 and finishing an undergraduate degree at around 22 has a lot of benefits, too. 

 

In economic terms, the sooner you can start working full-time in a career, the more years you have to earn money. The issue might be whether you can get that full-time job of your dreams at age 18.

 

I'm not sure how to address the good vs super selective university options, or how these directly relate to age of student. Is there something I'm missing?

Edited June 13, 2016 by wintermom

[regentrude]

Too many variables, and other options besides these.

I do not think for most students finishing a four year degree at 18 will get them the benefit they could have from that education if they were slightly older. It is not a race.Also, maturity plays a role; just because a student can manage academically does not mean he is mature enough to attend college, possibly away from home, full time.

 

We did best of two worlds:

My DD finished high school with a strong transcript that included 32 credits from a 4 year university at age 17, and attends a highly selective top tier university where she will graduate at age 21 with two majors (none of the credits from high school were transferred or used for this)

 

Students' personalities and goals differ. For my DS, who is as intelligent as his sister, her college would be a horrible fit.

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I'm not sure how to address the good vs super selective university options, or how these directly relate to age of student. Is there something I'm missing?

 

It directly relates to the student's age because for a highly selective school, the transcript of a very young student will be too weak to be admitted - the kids who are accepted have all done college level work in high school. Chances of a 14 year old being admitted to a school with a 90+% rejection rate are tiny; there is no bonus for being a prodigy. At the same time, it is easy to be admitted to a solid public university with a  decent ACT score and run of the mill high school classwork, which gifted students could have completed by age 14.

 

[wapiti]

If the question is basically about early college, there are a number of older threads detailing pros and cons and experiences.  I'll see if I can find some...

 

Early College - Accelerated Learner Board - The Well-Trained Mind ...

Pros or cons to early college - High School and Self-Education ...

Early college - and what AFTER college? - Accelerated Learner ...

How can a child go to college early? - Accelerated Learner Board ...

Logisitcs of Early College? - Accelerated Learner Board - The Well ...

 

As for mediocre college at a young age vs selective college at the normal age, so much will depend on the individual situation.  The financial picture may play a significant role at any age, possibly leading to seeking scholarships at the normal age but at schools that are less-competitive than otherwise might be within reach.

 

I'd also note that college ranking is a continuum between mediocre and good and selective and super-selective rather than a dichotomy.  (FWIW, as a point of reference, when I think "good" college, I do not think of a college where any of my kids would be eligible for acceptance earlier than the normal age by more than a year.)

 

Without regard for individual factors, if I had to choose for my kids, I would tend to prefer selective schools at (or near) the normal age.  Selectivity aside, the mere necessity of choosing a major at a young age is a daunting prospect fraught with consequence.

Edited June 13, 2016 by wapiti

[TerriM]

Unless the kid is home with you taking classes at a local university, I would *not* recommend going to college at age 15, especially away from home.   It can be very stressful, and I have seen kids go a bit wild.    I don't mind a kid at a local university, but keep tabs on the social life--ask questions, but give some freedom to make wise decisions themselves.    It can be really awkward and bit weird.  BTDT.  Being 15 and hanging out with 35 year olds is a bit awkward....   Very different life expectations.

Edited June 13, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[TKDmom]

In general, I'd lean towards having them go off to college closer to the normal age. At a minimum, I want my kids to be able to drive before they leave home. I would be exploring as many options as possible to let them continue to advance academically at home if I had a child that was advanced enough to consider University-level work at 14. I'm not particularly concerned about whether or not my kids go to a selective school--I just want them to find a place that's a good fit. And there is more to them than just academics. I know I've seen posters here whose kids were wilting at home and  needed to go to college quite early, but I really feel that it's the exception, even among gifted kids.

Edited June 13, 2016 by TKDmom

[luuknam]

N/m.

Edited June 14, 2016 by luuknam

[wapiti]

I'm basically talking about the risks involved in waiting until a kid is 18 before starting college - the odds of a kid dropping out seem higher after they're 18yo than before they're 18yo, though I do not have any actual statistics on that (would there even *be* statistics on that?).

....

And yes, I'm biased. My wife and I are both HG+, graduated high school at about the normal time, and neither of us have finished a college degree, and we've been through hell because of it. 

 

It depends on what you mean by "starting college."  Perhaps what you are looking for are ways to keep the challenge going during the later high school years.  That's far less of an issue for homeschoolers (and even kids attending some schools - it depends) with many different options for dual enrollment, online courses, etc. prior to actually graduating high school.  In other words, taking college courses while living at home does not have to mean officially graduating high school and foreclosing application to selective schools.  Indeed, that type of coursework is good and potentially necessary for admission to selective schools.

[regentrude]

I'm basically talking about the risks involved in waiting until a kid is 18 before starting college - the odds of a kid dropping out seem higher after they're 18yo than before they're 18yo, though I do not have any actual statistics on that (would there even *be* statistics on that?).

 

But this is a false dichotomy between starting college and not starting college. Many gifted students ease into college by beginning to take college classes at age 13 while still in high school and living at home.

So, I do not see this as an either-or. The student who started taking college classes early has plenty of time to choose whether to up the classes and graduate at this college far before age 22, or whether to graduate high school (early or not) and attend a top school.

 

Therefore, the potential trade-off... graduate early and be more likely to finish a college degree, but at a good rather than stellar school (graduating early in order to go to a mediocre or plainly bad school doesn't seem like a good idea, period, but if someone wants to play devil's advocate or truly believes that's a good idea, knock yourself out), or graduate at the normal time and be more likely to get into a highly selective school, but at an increased risk of dropping out before graduation.

 

But why would there be an increased drop out risk? Sure, if the student is forced to march at the beat of the slowest drummer in a regular high school and be bored out of his skull for years, I could see that. But for a gifted student who is homeschooled and allowed to learn according to his abilities and at his pace, why would there be a reason to drop out?

 

 

I'm not even sure what all the hype is about wrt highly selective schools. Sure, Harvard or MIT or w/e might be nice, but people simply going to their state flagship or similar seem to get by just fine too.

 

I teach at a public engineering university that gets high ratings and has a good reputation. My DD is attending the number 4 ranked private university of the country. So, I have first hand comparison - and the difference is mind boggling.

Our graduate students are unable to solve the homework problems from DD's honors freshman physics course (this is not hyperbole, but actually the case). Our English professors cannot even dream of assigning reading of the depth and complexity as she has in her classes.

The difference is not in reputation or hype. Yes, a good public U gives a solid education, enables graduates to earn a good living, and is in most cases a good choice for a good student. But the education from a top school can be of an outstanding caliber that simply does not compare, and can be* the better choice for an outstanding student with extraordinary academic abilities and ambition (if we discount other factors like finances or geography that may make the state U the more viable choice even for such a  student).

*I specifically said "can be", because even at a top school not all students avail themselves of the opportunities.

Edited June 13, 2016 by regentrude

[slackermom]

I expect we will aim for a compromise of those two extremes. DD11 will most likely begin dual enrollment no later than age 16, giving her increased academic challenge, with the option to eventually graduate from college as early as 20, maybe 21. It is definitely not with the specific goal of increasing her odds of graduating, rather, it is to keep her academically engaged and to keep her options open. 

[luuknam]

N/m.

Edited June 14, 2016 by luuknam

[luuknam]

N/m.

Edited June 14, 2016 by luuknam

[slackermom]

I do get what you are saying, but I hope you can let go of that particular fear. If you focus on what is best for your kids at each stage as they age, those issues are probably less likely to erupt in during the college years.

 

Rather than trying to control for that particular outcome (college degree earned while under your direct oversight), I think maybe helping your children to learn to make wise decisions along the way will be more beneficial to them in the long run.

 

 

edited for privacy, now that OP has had a chance to read the post.

Edited June 14, 2016 by slackermom

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, my DD started auditing college classes at age 8, and will likely start actually taking classes for credit within the next year (she could have as early as last Spring, but right now she's nervous about the prospect, so we're waiting and continuing to audit/piggy back on college courses for now). She has no desire to start college full-time particularly early, mostly due to having spent so much time with college and grad students that she knows of the downsides. We've had a lot of discussions because of comments she's overheard on campus (I was SOOOO drunk!!!).

 

For her, right now it's all about the content without having to go early.

 

Having said that, at 11 she also dearly longs to go to a school where she's "normal" and can do "normal stuff"-but still have the academic level she wants. There is one school 3/4 of the way across the USA that appeals to her, and we may visit some EEPs as well, because it seems likely that she may have to go to college early in order to feed that social and emotional need.

 

The other thing is that "selective, competitive school" depends on program. DD wants to do research. Not as a grad student, now. And the "best schools" in her major that are the most selective (Cornell, Berkeley) do not have undergrads doing independent research and presenting at conferences. At best, you get to wash glassware and catch frogs on someone else's project. The schools that DO have students presenting tend to be less competitive and to have smaller graduate programs, or none at all, but have faculty who are committed to research. The result is that most of the schools that are front runners on her list are ones where her SAT at age 10 with no preparation makes her competitive, often Satellite campuses of state universities where the school just happens to be located near a research station or reserve, and a reputation in the field that is far better than that of the school as a whole.

 

Unfortunately, we live in an urban area. DD can start at our local state U as a non-degree student any time she wants-but it would be a poor fit for her to actually get a degree from. So, right now, we're trying to balance getting her the content she needs (things like piggybacking on a 4000 level entomology course), with trying to plan general Ed classes that will check boxes if she does go to one of these secondary schools that are liberal about transfer credit, while also building up her transcript if she decides to apply to Cornell.

 

FWIW, one of her mentors is in favor of the "small, research school where you can get your hands dirty from day 1". The other thinks that DD would be better off emotionally and socially at a more competitive, selective school with higher performing kids, even if she doesn't get as much hands on before grad school.

[TerriM]

I would worry more about suicide than dropping out if you send a young kid to a non-local college (as opposed to having them home at a local college--I have no problem with that).

 

It can be very lonely to be the youngest and smartest one by a couple of years especially if you're talking a college with a very homogeneous age population (ie, colleges where everyone is 18 coming in).  And if your kid is bright enough to get into college at 15, but not into a highly academic one, double whammy:  people who don't understand or are jealous of the intellect of your gifted child and an age group your gifted child may not understand.    Can't vote, can't go to concerts at clubs with their friends.   Some kids aren't going to mind, but it's isolating for others.

Edited June 14, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[wapiti]

Luuknam, maybe the conversation you'd like to have involves how to set up the kids in the best way possible so as to not drop out of college?  That sounds like a pretty complicated question, involving numerous factors.  With regard to the original thread question, a more selective school may involve more interesting, more challenging coursework, as regentrude mentioned above.  Of course there are kids who drop out of selective schools for all kinds of reasons but the college culture may be less likely to involve students coming and going.  The vast, vast majority who start will finish.  High-achieving peers who are more like your students (e.g. HG) might make a world of difference, a chance for them to finally "find their people."

[JenneinCA]

In theory the best option is to wait and produce the best student for the selective school when they can get in. In theory.

 

I had an almost 15 year old start at the local community college this past year. It is not selective. It is not suitable peers. It is not ideal. But life isn't ideal. I have to parent the child I have with the resources I have at the time. That means right now he is going to the local community college and being under challenged there. Still it is the best I can with the resources I have.

 

Perfect doesn't live in my house. Neither does ideal.

[regentrude]

And yes, I know there are DE options and all that - I just wanted to leave this a little more black and white for the sake of argument. Also, if you do DE and then go to a highly selective university, it's unlikely that those college credits will transfer, as far as I know - so, you would in effect start over.

 

Yes, they usually do not transfer - as I mentioned when I wrote about DD's experience. But I do not understand what this has anything to do with it.

 

I'm not talking about dropping out of high school. I'm talking about dropping out of college. As a minor, you've pretty much got to do what your parents tell you to do ..... As an adult, there are many more things you could do to potentially drop out of anything, including college, than as a minor.

 

And you still did not answer: WHY do you think it would be likely for a gifted student to drop out of college???

The high school experience I wrote about is definitely relevant, because an interesting high school time that keeps the spark for learning alive and sets the student up for success will benefit the student once he gets to college. I am scratching my head where the drop out fear is coming from; I have not seen any actual data that would substantiate the claim that gifted students tend to drop out of college if they attend as young adults as opposed to being forced to do college as minors without agency.

 

ETA: And even dropping out of college is not the end of the world; they can always return later when they are more motivated. I see my share of non-traditional students who did a stint in the military or worked and then return to college at age 30 or 40; they are motivated and mature, and that makes up for being out of school for a long time.

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by regentrude

[TerriM]

Once you've finished high school, I don't think you have any obligation to continue in college even if you're under 18.    Yes, you as a parent can put pressure on, but I almost think it'd be easier to do at 18 where you can give the kid a choice: college or they have to move out and work and pay their own rent.  Under 18, I suspect you're still on the hook for taking care of them even if they finished high school.  What's to stop them from playing video games for 3 years?

Edited June 14, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[Have kids -- will travel]

This was sparked by the overparenting comments on the burnout thread, btw. I usually will count myself as highly educated (despite not having a college degree), but I don't overparent because I need something to do with my drive and talent or w/e. I overparent out of fear. Because things were so bad for several years that I was having flashbacks and panic attacks for a long time after things improved. I don't have a crystal ball. I just want my kids to be prepared for whatever the big bad world throws at them when they're grown-ups. I know that that's impossible, that I can't plan for everything that might happen, but having a degree tends to beat not having a degree - it seriously reduces the risk of unemployment and increases the odds of making a living wage.

 

I need to get away from the "worst case scenario" outlook on life. I just don't know how to do that. I don't even know if I want to, because it's scary to not prepare for the worst. I'm still scared things may fall apart again tomorrow. So the more I can do (figurative) today, the better.

 

Look into selective liberal arts schools. My alma mater had tremendous scaffolding for undergraduates, including free tutoring, incredibly accessible professors, free mental health care (anonymous as well), mentoring, and more, all designed to get every single entering freshman to graduate within four years. Small (expensive, private) schools can and do work with all kids to make everyone successful. Given your concerns, I think it would help to look into the graduation percentages. Those schools with high numbers work hard to keep students successful. 

 

Selective schools are better for the very intelligent, IMO, because the peers are so much more similar. Everyone works hard, everyone has a very high capacity. You get to be really stretched, not artificially stretched (wow, impressive for someone so young, for example). The content is just a higher level than a run-of-the-mill school. No competition. High school age kids wouldn't have nearly a strong enough background to do upper level sciences, for example. You need a strong calculus background to understand 300 level chemistry for example. You need organic chemistry (not AP chemistry) to have any chance understanding 200 level genetics in biology.

 

Science is what I know, and particularly there, without a high enough level, you don't get the real understanding. Regular students don't have strong enough math for a professor to give molecular orbital theory justice. Yes, you can teach it, but it isn't at the same level if you can't write out the Hamiltonian and expect students to make proper calculations on probability.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Have kids -- will travel

[Arcadia]

One of my aunts has four kids. Two were academic scholars, full ride for college. One is slower all his life but graduated with 2nd class Upper (UK style of honours classification).

 

One is playful and just barely pass his GCE 'A' levels exams. He went into his favourite occupation of Sales, did very well and went to college for fun in his late 20s. He was also the most street smart among his siblings.

 

As parents we can only plan so much and coax so much. I watches my nephews and nieces grew up with the same upbringing and different outcomes (none bad) that I'm not going to lose sleep over what might have been or what could be.

 

My kids have their lives to chart just as hubby and I charted our own. Hubby and I will guide and support to our best abilities and the rest is up to them. At the moment both of mine are thinking of commuter colleges because they don't fancy dorms. We are thinking of relocating if we can find an equivalent job elsewhere.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Arcadia

[luuknam]

N/m.

Edited June 14, 2016 by luuknam

[luuknam]

N/m.

Edited June 14, 2016 by luuknam

[Arcadia]

For my brother, getting an associates degree in engineering by going to the equivalent of community college after 10th grade works. He just survived community college with average grades despite working hard and would not have survived the high school to college track.

 

He did his bachelors degree on a part time basis over a few years so it was a feasible load to him.

 

There is nothing wrong with going the community college or commuter state U first if that is the best fit for the child.

 

Going to a good U at 17/18 is a valid option too but not in your polling choices.

[slackermom]

 

Obviously I want them to learn to make wise decisions. But, between ASD, bipolar, generalized anxiety disorder, major depression, and some other stuff, they have their genetics firmly stacked against them - you can't just teach those things away.

 

Well, having a college degree, at any age, won't make those things go away either.

[luuknam]

Well, having a college degree, at any age, won't make those things go away either.

 

True. That said, having a degree increases the odds of having a stable job that pays a living wage, which reduces stress (compared to being broke/poor), as well as makes mental health care/meds easier to afford. But, you're right. This might be a no-win situation.

[TerriM]

luuknam, on 13 Jun 2016 - 7:51 PM, said:

 

Obviously I want them to learn to make wise decisions. But, between ASD, bipolar, generalized anxiety disorder, major depression, and some other stuff, they have their genetics firmly stacked against them - you can't just teach those things away.

 

 

Woah!  Sounds like addressing those things is the first step.  Have you guys looked into mold exposure?  What you just described sounds a lot like what is being described here:  http://paradigmchange.me/wp/fire/

 

Also, Vitamin D can help with depression and may help with some of the others.  If you're in NY, you're probably not getting as much sun exposure.  When I moved from Boston to California, I had a noticable reduction in my depression, especially when I'd go outside during the day.

Edited June 14, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[raptor_dad]

In my experience gifted kids drop out of college because it seems pointless to their goals. If this is a concern for you, picking a school known for its co-ops like Virginia Tech or Waterloo might be a good middle ground, with rigorous academics and real world grounding in one package.