JAWM- Grumping About My Library

[shinyhappypeople]

This is a rant (mostly).  At our library, the children's events  are open to ALL ages (except certain events are only for pre-schoolers or babies), which means that every.single.event is over-run with pre-schoolers and toddlers -- even when the information is clearly geared toward older kids.  (Really?  You think your 3 year old is going to benefit from a "build your own miniature solar panel" day?  <--- hypothetical example)  I should note these aren't "tag-alongs" of their older siblings.  I'm far more patient with tag-along littles, because their parents tend to be more motivated to keep Little One behaved so Bigger One can enjoy the event.  

 

It's to the point that older kids rarely want to go to library events because they almost invariably, turn into a poorly run daycare with parents tuning out the chatter and wandering of their littles, leaving the handful of stalwart older kids struggling to hear the presentation.  (Today the librarian actually had to interrupt the presentation to remind parents of the Under 5's to help their children be quiet and follow directions.  ONE parent got up to help her kid.  The rest just kept sitting there and let their kids wander, chatter, stand up next to the presenter (blocking an exhibit), etc.  I felt so sorry for the librarian.  She's a good person and she tries, but the parents.....

 

Anyway, I have got to figure out a way to communicate my desire for "big kid only" events to the librarian without sounding like a total curmudgeon.   

 

 

 

 

[Catalytic]

I'd just be a curmudgeon.

[happi duck]

That would bug me too!

[Grover]

Hi LIbrarian

 

After today's debacle, I was thinking it might be a good idea to give an age indication for these activities.  Maybe something like "best suited for age 8 and up, children under this age will need a caregiver at their side to ensure the presentation is not disrupted.  Caregivers of chidren interrupting the presentation will be requested to remove them promptly."   or a simple "we regret we cannot accommodate preschoolers (or under whaever age) at this event."

 

 

[kewb]

I have run into that issue at our library. They now have teen events,elementary events, babies/preschool events, and open to all events.

[MeghansMom]

This is a major pet peeve of mine. So much so that I stopped going to library events. Last one I went to was years ago and the parents with their mostly young children where so incredibly rude, talking so loudly, no one could hear the presenters. I just wanted to stand up and yell SHUT THE HELL UP OR LEAVE YOU RUDE THOUGHTLESS PEOPLE. The librarians kept asking for the attendees to be respectful and were ignored while the attendee's children ran wild and they sat around gossiping and oblivious to anyone.

 

I would have called the police and had them all removed. I get that steamed at those situations. :cursing:

 

The library should make it clear about showing respect to presenters and if people can't follow rules they need to keep them out. :glare:  :glare:

[marbel]

I'm with you. We stopped bothering with library programs because they were overrun with little kids going wild. 

 

But even teen events can be wrecked because people will bring their 10-year-old, who may have read the book and understood the words, but isn't ready to discuss it at the high-school level. 

 

It's too bad because I love the library and want to support it.  But parents can be idiots about their kids.

[AnnE-girl]

That stinks. Our library is pretty strict about the age/grade level guidelines for programs. My only issue is that there aren't quite as many programs for the later elementary grades as there are for the younger kids and junior high kids. I did send my nine-year-old to an adult presentation about D-Day, but that was only after checking with the librarians in charge. My in-laws took him because DH had a late meeting and I didn't want to bring the baby and DD, who would have been bored and complaining.

[kewb]

I'm with you. We stopped bothering with library programs because they were overrun with little kids going wild. 

 

But even teen events can be wrecked because people will bring their 10-year-old, who may have read the book and understood the words, but isn't ready to discuss it at the high-school level. 

 

It's too bad because I love the library and want to support it.  But parents can be idiots about their kids.

 

Yes, this. 

 

I will admit to secretly being a little pleased that it is not just homeschooling parents who think their special snowflake doesn't have to observe the age appropriate guidelines.

[marbel]

Yes, this. 

 

I will admit to secretly being a little pleased that it is not just homeschooling parents who think their special snowflake doesn't have to observe the age appropriate guidelines.

 

LOL, yes indeed. 

 

It's universal. 

[athomeontheprairie]

This is why I have a limit on the programs I run at my library. And every summer I turn down parents that want their special snowflakes to be allowed to attend.

Im not even generous with tag alongs-they must be 4 with a school aged sibling to attend. 6th graders don't want to hand out with toddlers.

[happypamama]

That would be so annoying!  Ours has age guidelines, which I very much appreciate.  I have occasionally asked if my 10-11yo can attend something with his older sister, and that has not been a problem, but I also would understand if they declined that request.

[marbel]

That would be so annoying!  Ours has age guidelines, which I very much appreciate.  I have occasionally asked if my 10-11yo can attend something with his older sister, and that has not been a problem, but I also would understand if they declined that request.

 

I'm think this might sound like I'm picking on you, and I'm sorry if it does because I don't mean to.  It's really the general principle I'm talking about, since I don't know you, your kids, or your library.  But in my experience....

 

A particular 10-year-old may be fine in an event designed for older kids, and the librarians may know that.   But, once they let one kid who is younger than the age guidelines in, they have to let them all in if asked, whether they know the kid can behave properly in the event or not.  Then it starts creeping younger and younger, until it's useless for the older kids. 

 

That's been my experience, anyway.  I'm sure there are exceptions to this though I have never seen any.

[SparklyUnicorn]

We've tried events for older kids and hardly anyone shows up.  Maybe they are just hoping SOMEONE shows up? 

[Julie Smith]

I like our library. A year or two ago my boys started enjoying / were willing to try some of the events. 

 

But soon I'll be asking them to bend the age guidelines... Because they only offer programs for grade 6 and under, and I'll have a grade 7 student. 

[Mergath]

The library here used to leave events open for all ages, but people would bring their toddlers and preschoolers to completely inappropriate events and DROP THEM OFF. They wouldn't even stay and pretend to watch them. It was ridiculous. Now all the events specify age restrictions.

 

I can't even wrap my head around it. "Yes, I'll bring my darling two-year-old to an engineering event geared toward middle schoolers and drop him off for an hour and a half so I can go have coffee. He'll be fine." Sadly, I think there really are people who think their precious snowflake is so advanced that he'll be fine at an event ten grade levels above him. I fully support my librarian being tyrannical about the age restrictions for events because like someone else said, if you give any leeway people will take advantage of you and use you for free babysitting.

[Mergath]

I like our library. A year or two ago my boys started enjoying / were willing to try some of the events. 

 

But soon I'll be asking them to bend the age guidelines... Because they only offer programs for grade 6 and under, and I'll have a grade 7 student. 

 

I don't think most people have a problem with a slightly older kid attending something if that's all that's available. It's the kids who are too young that generally cause all the problems.

[SKL]

Our library is pretty strict about age limits.  It does help to keep things on track.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The library here used to leave events open for all ages, but people would bring their toddlers and preschoolers to completely inappropriate events and DROP THEM OFF. They wouldn't even stay and pretend to watch them. It was ridiculous. Now all the events specify age restrictions.

 

I can't even wrap my head around it. "Yes, I'll bring my darling two-year-old to an engineering event geared toward middle schoolers and drop him off for an hour and a half so I can go have coffee. He'll be fine." Sadly, I think there really are people who think their precious snowflake is so advanced that he'll be fine at an event ten grade levels above him. I fully support my librarian being tyrannical about the age restrictions for events because like someone else said, if you give any leeway people will take advantage of you and use you for free babysitting.

 

whoa..so weird

 

I wouldn't dream of doing something like that even if they told me I could!

[shinyhappypeople]

OK, you bunch of curmudgeons (that's my new favorite word) here's what I wrote on the event's facebook page.  It's pending approval so we'll see if it actually gets posted.

 

Note: this is a series of very cool science/tech events. The information was clearly geared towards school-age kids.  Most of the information flew right over the pre-schoolers' cute heads.

 

Thank you to the presenters at the main branch yesterday for all your hard work. You guys are troopers! :) I think it might be a good idea to give an age suggestion for these events, even if they're technically open to all ages. Maybe something like "best suited for age ___ and up." What do you think?

[closed]

I can't believe they didn't have age limits already . . . although I also can't imagine what people are thinking bringing little kids to something like that. I go to the library during preschool story hour just to cover up how much noise I can't seem to stop my 2 & 4yo from making and I still feel really obnoxious bringing them.

[shinyhappypeople]

I think its uncool to bar an interested preschooler because other preschoolers arent interested but were in attendance. I would suggest the library provide a place for non participants to congregate, and redirect those who arent actively engaged to that area. As a program provider, I have no problem with a younger participant, but only if the child can successfully function in a group setting. I would encourage you to not post, but to go meet with the library staff person in charhe of childrens programing.

 

If they had been behaving, this wouldn't have been an issue.  

 

I already submitted the post.  No regrets.

 

ETA: I think it's uncool to suggest that older kids need to suck it up and deal with every event being centered around 3 year olds (whether that was the original intent or not).  Think about it.  You're an older kid, so you know the rules: always let the little one go first, just try to ignore the wiggles and chatter of the little ones, if you end up not getting a turn at the demonstration because they ran out of time (because the little ones took to long or because the little one broke it) just roll with it, etc.  The preschoolers ruined the event for the older kids and, honestly, made life really hard for the presenters, too.  I'm not mad at the little ones.  I mean, it's not like they drove themselves to the event. But the fact remains that the event could have been awesome.  The half a dozen school age kids that did show up would have been able to learn a ton and have a great time.  But the presence of a dozen or more Stillwell Angels messed it up for everyone.

Edited June 10, 2016 by shinyhappypeople

[Bluegoat]

The library here used to leave events open for all ages, but people would bring their toddlers and preschoolers to completely inappropriate events and DROP THEM OFF. They wouldn't even stay and pretend to watch them. It was ridiculous. Now all the events specify age restrictions.

 

I can't even wrap my head around it. "Yes, I'll bring my darling two-year-old to an engineering event geared toward middle schoolers and drop him off for an hour and a half so I can go have coffee. He'll be fine." Sadly, I think there really are people who think their precious snowflake is so advanced that he'll be fine at an event ten grade levels above him. I fully support my librarian being tyrannical about the age restrictions for events because like someone else said, if you give any leeway people will take advantage of you and use you for free babysitting.

 

THat's interesting.  We have age designations here so that isn't an issue, but as far as parents dropping off toddlers, they won't.  years ago when I volunteered in the children's programs, the libaraians usually made it pretty clear that the activities went best without the parents, for anything above actual baby groups.  Now, that is never asked, and parents just do not leave their kids - even if it is acceptable to the librarians, it just isn't done.  It doesn't seem to make the groups run any better, either - rather the opposite.

[knoxinsox]

I totally agree with you.  We are past the toddler/preschool phase, and my kids would end up disgusted if it was disrupted like that.  

 

We've just moved and are participating in our new library's summer reading program.  Its the best organized program I have seen. They have 12 "shows" for K-6 scheduled for the summer on Tuesday and Thursday (2 shows per day) with a Wednesday show for the littles (which we don't go to).  

 

In order to attend the shows, they have to have a library card of their own, and be signed up for the reading program. (You can't get a library card till you are 5.) The kids get stamped, and wait in line to get into the show and are color coded per height and they have taped off the colors on the floor and they are to sit on their pockets with legs criss-crossed, shortest kids in the front.  There is room for parents to sit in the back is they want, but the littles are not allowed out on the floor with the big kids---they have to sit with the parents in the back, and are not allowed to disrupt.  Or the parents can take them out to the kids part of the library.  They have monitors to insure that everyone is following the rules.  

 

All that to say, I love preschoolers.  But this is not for them and no one is allowed to pretend that it is.   My kids feel respected and are excited about reading their 720 minutes, getting prizes, attending the shows, and getting an invitation to a waterslide party with their peers.  There were 200 kids on the floor yesterday and 99 parents/babies yesterday and its so organized that it didn't feel like that many kids.

 

[happypamama]

I think suggesting that they put "this activity is suggested for X age" is a good way to go.  That gives parents a heads-up ahead of time that it might not be of interest to their child, while not excluding those who genuinely ARE interested and who will get a lot out of an event, but it also allows the staff to have an easy out if they want to ask parents to remove their children who are not behaving.

[Paige]

You don't understand. Those 3yr olds are really geniuses! They are totally into solar power and especially like Shakespeare. They may not seem like they are into it, but they are totally getting it on the inside.  ;) Playing with trains, dogs, and play doh are for babies.

 

ETA: I'm not really a jerk. I love seeing little preschoolers get excited about science and new stuff, and when they see it on their level it is great. I feel sorry for the kids who want to have fun (of all ages) and are forced to sit through things that aren't at an appropriate level. I've seen it both ways: little kids being dragged to an older kid activity and being disruptive and it's not their fault because they are normal kids, and older kids being dragged to things for little kids and having to pretend they are into it.

 

Our library enforces guidelines for ages and it works well. Fortunately, we are funded well and they can offer more targeted events instead of trying to please everyone all the time. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by Paige

[Mergath]

Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of reading my post in its entirety. As I stated, I have no issue with preschoolers who know how to behave in a group. Banning them is uncool, because you are preventing them from learning.

 

Your post against those who wiggle also indicates an attitude of less than full inclusion. Might as well get all your hate against active boys out and ban them too. They dont stop wiggling just because they get older.

 

Very understandable now why you are posting on a fb page instead of addressing the issue with the library staff. I have been a provider, I wouldnt accept a ban of over half the participants because one has a special need of a certain sensory environment. What we would do is offer a program for those who have special needs but cant be in the inclusive environment.

It's not uncool to not want preschoolers at a middle grade event. I wouldn't have brought dd, when she was little, to a three hour poetry reading. Or a college class. Or a high end, romantic reataurant on Valentine's Day. I have enough respect for other people to know better. Not everyone thinks a little kid running around yelling and getting into stuff is cute. Sorry.

 

There are places it's inappropriate to bring a preschooler. That's life. The attitude that "my kid should be allowed to go everywhere without exception and anyone who disagrees is a horrible person" is the entire reason the phrase "special snowflake" was coined.

[marbel]

It's not uncool to not want preschoolers at a middle grade event. I wouldn't have brought dd, when she was little, to a three hour poetry reading. Or a college class. Or a high end, romantic reataurant on Valentine's Day. I have enough respect for other people to know better. Not everyone thinks a little kid running around yelling and getting into stuff is cute. Sorry.

 

There are places it's inappropriate to bring a preschooler. That's life. The attitude that "my kid should be allowed to go everywhere without exception and anyone who disagrees is a horrible person" is the entire reason the phrase "special snowflake" was coined.

 

I agree.  But also... even if the younger kids can behave and be engaged, why can't some things just be closed to them?  Why can't upper elementary (and older) kids have some things that are for them and don't include their younger siblings?    I don't buy the argument that barring little kids is preventing them from learning.   They don't have to learn everything, right now, today.   And if the population of users of a certain library has a high number of advanced preschoolers, those parents can work with the librarian to secure programming just for them. 

[brett_ashley]

Idk why but the use of the word "uncool" in this context is cracking me up.

[fraidycat]

Some times you get to do cool things because you're older.

 

When itty bitty special snowflake gets older, there'll be cool things for them to do, too.

 

It's completely uncool for snowflakes to ruin the event for the olders. Even if they are interested. It's a library - check out a book or video on the subject. Let the older kids be kids and enjoy an event geared toward them without having to be "the responsible" ones.

[EmilyGF]

I'm think this might sound like I'm picking on you, and I'm sorry if it does because I don't mean to.  It's really the general principle I'm talking about, since I don't know you, your kids, or your library.  But in my experience....

 

A particular 10-year-old may be fine in an event designed for older kids, and the librarians may know that.   But, once they let one kid who is younger than the age guidelines in, they have to let them all in if asked, whether they know the kid can behave properly in the event or not.  Then it starts creeping younger and younger, until it's useless for the older kids. 

 

That's been my experience, anyway.  I'm sure there are exceptions to this though I have never seen any.

Many younger children who are advanced academically aren't in other ways. 

 

Maybe older kids don't come to library events (Shiny? can't remember who talked about this?) because they think the events are lame due to the younger kids.

 

I've been reading about starting a math circle and a portion is dedicated to how including younger kids can kill your math circle: because you have younger kids, you try to include something in your time they can access, the older kids start viewing the math circle as a "little kid" thing, and pretty soon you have a middle school math circle, not a high school math circle.

 

Emily

[Xahm]

I have a very bright almost 4 year old, and I remind myself frequently that she is little. Since she's my oldest she seems amazingly mature to me, and she really does do well socially with kids 2 years older. I know why parents want to bring their little ones. It is hard to balance wanting what's best for your kid with not ruining things for bigger kids. That's why I'm really glad our library does list ages and specifies whether siblings are welcome. (And I follow those guidelines)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of reading my post in its entirety. As I stated, I have no issue with preschoolers who know how to behave in a group. Banning them is uncool, because you are preventing them from learning.

 

Your post against those who wiggle also indicates an attitude of less than full inclusion. Might as well get all your hate against active boys out and ban them too. They dont stop wiggling just because they get older.

 

Very understandable now why you are posting on a fb page instead of addressing the issue with the library staff. I have been a provider, I wouldnt accept a ban of over half the participants because one has a special need of a certain sensory environment. What we would do is offer a program for those who have special needs but cant be in the inclusive environment.

 

Being an active, curious preschooler who is wiggly while still wanting to touch everything and participate in everything is...normal. It's not a special needs situation that makes people bigoted and against full inclusion if they don't throw open the door.

 

I say this as a mother of four very active and wiggly boys (two are now grown up and the other two are 2/3 of the way there) who never took them to activities for older kids even though their intellect, and prior knowledge, probably exceeded the average of the group in many cases.

[brehon]

Perhaps you could do me the courtesy of reading my post in its entirety. As I stated, I have no issue with preschoolers who know how to behave in a group. Banning them is uncool, because you are preventing them from learning.

 

Your post against those who wiggle also indicates an attitude of less than full inclusion. Might as well get all your hate against active boys out and ban them too. They dont stop wiggling just because they get older.

 

Very understandable now why you are posting on a fb page instead of addressing the issue with the library staff. I have been a provider, I wouldnt accept a ban of over half the participants because one has a special need of a certain sensory environment. What we would do is offer a program for those who have special needs but cant be in the inclusive environment.

Nope. Sorry. Little kids don't have some implicit right to attend every event out there. It's not negatively discriminatory to restrict any event to certain ages. Maybe where you live there are so many events for older kids and teens that this isn't an issue. I have a hard enough time finding things for my older kids to do without having to worry that some parent thinks their wunderkind is entitled to participate in everything. Having lots of littles at an event ostensibly for older kids (by subject matter if not by age) just kills the fun for the older kids.

[fraidycat]

Oh, and rather than prevent the preschooler from learning, they are learning a very important lesson:

 

The world does not revolve around you and your desires. There is a time and a place - this is not your time, not your place.

Edited June 12, 2016 by fraidycat

[rocassie]

The coolest thing our library does, although only during Summer reading time, is that on the same day and time, they have a program designed for preschool age and lower, one for lower elementary (K-5th), one for upper elementary through middle school (4th-8th), and then a high school program.  The theme is generally the same, but the content is age appropriate.  Preschool age and lower must be accompanied by an adult, lower elementary - an adult must be on the premises , upper elementary - parents can drop off if their child is 12yo or older otherwise they must remain on the premises, and high schoolers can come by themselves as long as the library has a valid phone number to contact the parent.  Programs take place at the same time in different locations through out the library (thankfully ours has a large enough facility) so it is great for families with multiple aged children.  

 

Hopefully your library can figure something out so everyone can enjoy the wonderful programs.

[sewingmama]

Our library runs awesome school holiday programs...so much so that every event is completely booked out within ten minutes of being listed online. There are age guidelines and they are strictly followed because there are too many kids of the right age on the waiting list to allow spaces to be taken by younger kids.

 

That being said..its a public library and the librarians encourage people to bring all their children. The activities are set up near the childrens section so the little ones can play or read in there. They also set up large tables of Lego and games for smaller siblings. The librarians there also very much encourage education for everyone...so if you did happen to have an extremely bright preschooler you could probably ask for special consideration... but there are no drop offs ever...even the older children must always have a parent with them or at least somewhere in the library. I've seen a few younger siblings become interested in the classes and wander over from the Lego table and so long as they are not disrupting and sitting beside their parent they are are allowed to join in... if the older child is making something the younger one can 'help' them. They don' t turn interested little ones away.

 

I tend to have the opposite problem...I book my 6 yo into things but once he sees the Lego table he disappears lol...luckily its right near the classes so he usually just listens in while playing with the Lego...which quite a few of the prschoolers do too.

 

We must have very conscientious parents in our area because I've never seen one sit and chat during a program...they go out the back to do that..but most of them come knowing they are supposed to stay with their child and help when needed and they do.

 

I recently took my DD to a learn to crochet class. My boys were so NOT interested lol but they came along and entertained themselves fine in the areas allowed as did other siblings. I sat with my DD and both she and I needed a lot of help lol...but parents are expected to be involved because the instructor cant get around to all the kids and all the parents I've seen have always supported it.

 

I dont know..maybe its because its so difficult to even get into the popular classes parents make sure the littles behave so as not to ruin it for the older kids. No drop offs helps too.