how much improvement should I expect?

[caedmyn]

This is for my 10 year old who I believe has stealth dyslexia.  She reads fast and fluently overall but had a great deal of trouble with unfamiliar multi-syllable words and nonsense words, as well as a number of other dyslexia signs.  We did a level of Abecedarian at the end of the school year, and now are halfway through Rewards Secondary.  She's improved quite a bit but there are still times when she leaves out sounds in the middle of a word, or can't put a word back together after sounding out each syllable (typically 2-5 words per Rewards lesson, and each lesson has roughly 35 long words to work on).  She also has slow recall on the sound(s) for each vowel blend, and still tends to hesitate some on nonsense words, even one-syllable ones.  I don't know what my expectations should be for how well she should be able to read since I've read that reading will always be harder for those with dyslexia.  Should I be aiming for her to read as fluently as a 4th grader without dyslexia?

[OneStepAtATime]

This will absolutely depend on the child, the type/length of instruction and any comorbid issues.  With targeted, OG based, one on one instruction she maybe end up reading way above grade level (although possibly still somewhat slowly out loud).  Just depends on the comorbid issues and what type of and level of and length of targeted instruction she gets.  Right now I wouldn't be expecting anything but whatever she is doing.  And working with her starting at wherever she is at.

 

I realize that isn't terribly helpful but that is reality.  If she is still stumbling over certain things, then she is stumbling over certain things.  She may continue to need additional, targeted, one on one work, preferably with an OG based system, and she may need it for quite some time.  

 

If you are wondering how much independent reading you should be expecting from her and at what level, if she is doing well with comprehension while silent reading then let her do silent reading for assignments at whatever level she is successful and she can work with you separately on her trouble areas.

[Heathermomster]

This is for my 10 year old who I believe has stealth dyslexia.  She reads fast and fluently overall but had a great deal of trouble with unfamiliar multi-syllable words and nonsense words, as well as a number of other dyslexia signs.  We did a level of Abecedarian at the end of the school year, and now are halfway through Rewards Secondary.  She's improved quite a bit but there are still times when she leaves out sounds in the middle of a word, or can't put a word back together after sounding out each syllable (typically 2-5 words per Rewards lesson, and each lesson has roughly 35 long words to work on).  She also has slow recall on the sound(s) for each vowel blend, and still tends to hesitate some on nonsense words, even one-syllable ones.  I don't know what my expectations should be for how well she should be able to read since I've read that reading will always be harder for those with dyslexia.  Should I be aiming for her to read as fluently as a 4th grader without dyslexia?

I don't consider someone that has a great deal of trouble with unfamiliar multi-syllable words and nonsense words to be reading fast and fluently overall.

 

My DS reads fluently aloud, and you cannot tell that he is dyslexic.  He reads slowly over time as the page numbers start to climb and uses immersion reading to improve the reading pace.

 

Slow down and work at the pace that she needs.  The aim should be to help your DD become a reader that doesn't skip words in sentences and can unflinchingly read multisyllable words.  In the meantime, you keep up with grade level content across other subjects by using audio books and increasing hands-on learning oppurtunities.  With direct, systematic, and multisensory instruction, dyslexics will make a leap in reading and jump several grade levels at once.  My DS did that by mid-year of 5th grade after working with a Wilson tutor for three and a half years.  He still went on to receive tutoring with reading, a roots study, and vocabulary review.  

Edited June 8, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Heathermomster]

I just struck me that you might benefit from an O-G instructor course.  

 

When DS was learning to read, he was periodically tested and had to correctly read a specific percentage of words and phrases correctly before he could move on to the next lesson.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Lecka]

I read that as good progress.

 

For my older son, he was also slow to recall sounds sometimes. But it got slowly better even after it had seemed to plateau. Like -- over 2-3 years, it still would seem to get better.

 

We got testing done for him about a year ago, and he scored 90 on the section that had to do with sounding out words. But he scored almost 20 points higher on comprehension.

 

But I would say, for him, yes, I can see it. Sometimes he stumbles on a word, or has to try a few times to sound out a word that it seems like he should know.

 

But it does happen less and less, it is just over a longer time.

 

I think it just takes a lot of time for exposure and practice to build up.

 

I think also, what is the temptation to skip over a word vs. pause to try to sound it out or ask for help.

 

When he started wanting to read a little harder book, he did want to make more effort, especially if it might be a plot point.

 

At the same time, as he read more, he knew more words, and I think he had more times when he might only need to really work on a word here and there, and so it would not be too much trouble.

 

I have had a chance to compare it to myself, sometimes I can read something harder for me and not know a word, and I have a choice between skimming over it or sounding it out. I realized how many words I skimmed when I started reading on a Kindle and being able to just tap the word for a dictionary definition.

 

So I think, he made progress when his interest level and his independent reading level were a good fit, with him liking what he was reading, and having motivation, and having few enough harder words that he would be more likely to take time on them than to skim over them.

 

On the vowel blends, I did turn out backtracking and spending time on only one sound for a blend, and taking more time on that, before adding a second sound, and going between different sounds for the same vowel blend. All of those steps took a long time.

 

I used Abecedarian Level B with him, and I really liked how it practiced the different sounds, and the word sorts. It was good for him. It clicked with him, but he needed a lot of practice. We were spending quite a bit of time per lesson, and looking for more words with the blend we were looking for, and comparing them.

 

We were doing that level before he was at all ready for multi-syllable words, too, so your child sounds impressive :)

 

If you see mistakes, then I think see if there is a pattern. If there is not a pattern, then sometimes there are just mistakes, especially when there is no context clue to make you go "hey, I should re-read, that didn't make sense."

 

If there is a pattern, then you may need to work on certain sounds or going back and forth between certain sounds. There are lists you can use that target this, just going between two sounds that are often confused. I don't think it should be like a tongue twister, but it can be better (targeted) practice than just coming across it here and there.

 

I think these can be called fluency sheets, and I think (iirc) there are samples at Oxton House. I just glanced and they are under reading, fluency, speed drills.

 

Well, that is just one way to practice. But if you know there are patterns where she is weak, I would say, try to target them and try ways that are least boring for her. And, possibly plan to have to try different ways of practice. Different ways can be better than just one way. I think for my son, bc he tunes out if he practices one way for too long. Then it also risks him disliking a way of practicing, that maybe he wouldn't have minded if it was changed up more often.

 

I also don't know if you work on fluency. It helped my son. Fluency is not a focus of Abecedarian! If you read in the introduction or whatever, it says it expects you to do other things for fluency.

 

I don't think this is bad at all, bc it is very easy to use interesting materials instead of canned materials. And fluency is not hard to do.

 

It does just take doing it.

 

It is like -- repeated reading of short passages, reading them out loud. You can google it and see suggestions.

 

But it is normal to work on decoding and then also to work on fluency, if it is seen to be needed. I think if there is not a pattern you are seeing, in errors, then it is good to do.

 

If you look on "teacher pay teachers" you can kind-of see ----- there must be a lot of kids who need this kind of thing, bc there are a lot of pre-made materials, that appear to be supplementary to other reading programs, so it seems like ----- it is not like my son is the only one!

 

Edit: overall, though, I am going to point out that you are using two programs focused more on decoding. Maybe you can look at fluency as a separate area, maybe you can target it in a different way than you have been. It did help my son.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Lecka

[FairProspects]

I don't consider someone that has a great deal of trouble with unfamiliar multi-syllable words and nonsense words to be reading fast and fluently overall.

 

My DS reads fluently aloud, and you cannot tell that he is dyslexic.  He reads slowly over time as the page numbers start to climb and uses immersion reading to improve the reading pace.

 

Slow down and work at the pace that she needs.  The aim should be to help your DD become a reader that doesn't skip words in sentences and can unflinchingly read multisyllable words.  In the meantime, you keep up with grade level content across other subjects by using audio books and increasing hands-on learning oppurtunities.  With direct, systematic, and multisensory instruction, dyslexics will make a leap in reading and jump several grade levels at once.  My DS did that by mid-year of 5th grade after working with a Wilson tutor for three and a half years.  He still went on to receive tutoring with reading, a roots study, and vocabulary review.  

 

 

I just struck me that you might benefit from an O-G instructor course.  

 

When DS was learning to read, he was periodically tested and had to correctly read a specific percentage of words and phrases correctly before he could move on to the next lesson.

 

I agree. Those phonemic issues are red flags that need to be corrected for her to be a fluent reader. If she is struggling with vowel blends and nonsense words she is not accurately decoding and needs to work on explicit phonics, such as through OG materials or instruction. The fluency can only come after those issues have been corrected. Fwiw, my dyslexic 9 y.o.would be nowhere near the fluency level  for the middle of Rewards Secondary and he tests in the 86% or so with no accommodations on grade level standardized reading tests. He is not a fast reader and not performing at potential yet, but his accuracy for what he does read is high. Prioritize accurate decoding over fluency and speed. The fluency will come with practice but those small errors and deletions become major barriers to comprehension as the material level increases.

Edited June 8, 2016 by FairProspects

[Lecka]

I do agree, decoding and phonemic awareness come before fluency.

 

I think I read it like there were fairly few mistakes.

 

If there are more mistakes, I think it is worth it to go back.

 

She would keep everything she already knows, of she shores up her foundation.

 

My son had done a lot of explicit phonics and a lot of phonemic awareness before we started Abecedaeian Level B.

 

So I guess I think it depends on how many errors and what kind.

 

For my son, he was very accurate with basic phonics (the basic/primary letter sounds) and with blending.

 

But he has also never struggled with vowel sounds. He struggled with consonants.

 

His issues in Level B might be more like "which sound for ea should I use?" Or "ou," is it like in use, house, or would.

 

I do think, she should be extremely accurate with the Level A material, and not making mistakes with nonsense words like that.

 

I would not want to see guessing or inaccurate blending with nonsense words using material from Level A.

 

If you are looking at testing for this child, I think you would want to get advice about how to know what to target!!!!!!!!!

 

This is when professional advice can be so worthwhile!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Edit: also, by not using an OG program (like Barton or others) that is a "complete program," you are going piecemeal. I went piecemeal for some reasons, too.

 

When you go piecemeal you have to worry about holes in another way.

 

Barton has almost every student start in Level 1, so you know there are not holes that way.

 

If you go piecemeal, you have to investigate and make sure there are not holes there.

 

And on the other side, I have not used it, but Barton and other OG programs (from my understanding) say they include fluency, and when you use a decoding-focused program, you do not have built-in fluency.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I am just going to add, for a little overview of the whole "phonemic awareness, decoding, fluency," thing, you can look at: reading rockets target the problem.

[caedmyn]

She reads tons on her own, and she did all her school reading herself this year and I don't foresee any problems with doing that again next year.  Her comprehension seems good with what we've been using, regardless of what she might be skipping.  I think she has slow processing speed overall so it is a little difficult for me to assess how well she is doing because she's not going to say the sounds, sound out words, etc as quickly as I would, since she doesn't move that fast anyway.  I think her automatic is going to be slower than my automatic, but sometimes it's difficult to figure out what is automatic and what is still needs to think, if that makes sense. 

 

I guess I do not know where to go from here if she still needs more practice after Rewards is done.  I think it might be enough to just keep working on multi-syllable words using the Rewards strategies, and we could do that with whatever she's currently reading, or one school subject a day.  And then find some nonsense words somewhere and work on those, and maybe work on fluency reading aloud. 

 

Abecedarian does work on fluency, at least in level B that DS7 is doing.  It also tells you what they should be able to do at the end of each unit, and how well they should be able to do it, and there's extra practice sheets for fluency building to download from their website.  The short level B that DD did didn't have that, though they do have some fluency building worksheets to go along with it/after it.  We haven't done those because we started on Rewards after she was done.  Maybe we should do them once Rewards is done.

[Lecka]

I kept working on multi-syllabic words that way.

 

For fluency -- some kids do not need all of this, but my son had a time when he was doing well with fluency for single words. Those lists are for single words.

 

But then he did need fluency separately for passages. That is what I meant about Abecedarian, to clarify. It didn't have enough of the paragraph or half-a-page kind of fluency practice, and my son needed that level also.

 

And for thinking about the level -- right now I would expect him to be able to pick up a Henry and Mudge book, cold, and be able to read it out loud, and sound really good.

 

Past that I would expect it to be pretty accurate, but not to sound as good as when I read.

 

But if he had a minute to pre-read, and then could sound pretty good ----- that is reality for a lot of reading out loud.... If you know your turn is coming, you skim over your passage.

 

I don't think there is much cold reading out loud other than reading to children, where there is not a chance to skim ahead and pre-read your section.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Lecka

[caedmyn]

This is what I mean by her reading fast and fluently other than certain words: there was a passage to read in the lesson of Rewards Secondary she did on Tuesday.  They're supposed to be timed for one minute and see how many words they read in that minute and how many errors.  I don't know what grade level this particular passage was aimed for, but I'd guess at least 6th grade (Rewards Secondary is for 4th to 12th graders; she was in 4th this year).  She read 135 words with 2 errors (adding a "the", mispronouncing perspiration).  I googled and 135 words/minute is about the expected reading speed for a 4th grader.  She finished the passage, 420 words total, with a total of 5 errors (another mispronouncing of perspiration, mispronouncing strenuous, and leaving out a "the").  This was kind of a technical passage on liquid-gas phase changes, and she knew most of even the longer words already, so this is why I said she reads fast and fluently.  Other than not being able to figure out those words, she reads pretty smoothly outloud.

 

So does she really need any work on fluency?  I'm thinking we should just work some more on getting vowel combination sound recall to be automatic and do some more work on nonsense words and multi-syllable words.

[Lecka]

That seems good to me.

 

I would wonder if she has a harder time with reading fiction and having to pay attention to more punctuation and maybe a harder kind of phrasing. But if it is about the same, it seems good.

 

I think you might be able to look up and see error rates or something along with "oral fluency rates." It has been a while since I have looked at them.

 

But it seems good to me, and I do look at the rates on those charts, so that does seem good to me.

 

But I will see what other people say! I don't really know.