"They were both drunk". Spin off

[Ann.without.an.e]

That is a very impacting letter - like it truly makes you open your eyes. Would you share that letter with your older DC? I'm thinking absolutely yes to my dd who is a rising senior, but what about my 15yo ds? Appropriate or not? I'm conflicted.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Attolia

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, appropriate.

 

 

[Catalytic]

Share it, absolutely.  15 yr olds are getting sexual feelings, it's totally appropriate!

[SKL]

I was also wondering how soon to start talking to my girls about this.  One of mine is a bit ahead of the curve socially, interested in boys and looking grown-up.  I think 15 is not too early.  Maybe even younger.

[FaithManor]

To be honest, we have a pretty open house and started talking about sexual issues well before 15 so I'd consider it for a 12 year old. I think 15 is appropriate for certain.

[Farrar]

I think it's at least as important to share it with sons as daughters. I think we talk to girls about rape a good bit in this country and don't talk to boys about it anywhere near enough.

[Caroline]

My husband, 21 year old and 15 year old sons and I discussed this letter yesterday. I am not discussing it with my 11 year old daughter, yet. 

[reign]

Totally share with teenagers.

[goldberry]

I would say yes.  I am debating about my DD17 because she had a bad experience and gets very emotional and sensitive talking about this subject.  But otherwise I wouldn't hesitate.

Edited June 6, 2016 by goldberry

[Soror]

15 for sure yes. I don't think it is quite the time for my particular 11(almost 12 yo) yet but I can see it in the near future.

[Guest]

With a high schooler? Unless they were extremely sensitive or anxious I'd definitely do so. But not with a middle schooler.

[Heatherwith4]

High schoolers of both genders need to see it, IMHO.

[lmrich]

Will you post the letter here as well. I think it is important, but I do not want to hijack your thread. 

 

and yes - show it to your sons and daughters!

[elegantlion]

I would have had no problem having my son read that letter at 15. I plan on asking him to read it now. 

 

[LMD]

Yes. I'm saving it for when my kids are older.

[Pen]

I have a 14 yo ds and am not planning to share the letter itself which seems too long for him, but to talk about the subject with him and refer to the letter. If he says he wants to read it, I will certainly let him. I am thinking through how I may pose it. OTOH, I may decide to send him a link, but I think he will tend to ignore that. He has already had OWL, but I don't know if they talked about alcohol in regard to consent much. Maybe I'll ask.

[Pen]

PS I didn't mean my above post to sound like I took the rapist's side and am saying it is all about being drunk, but as I am thinking about it, I think I plan to tell my ds that drinking and sex should not be mixed just like drinking and driving should not be mixed. He should not drive after having been drinking, nor accept a ride with someone who has been drinking. Likewise, he should not enter into sex when he has been drinking, nor have sex with someone who has been drinking.

[EndOfOrdinary]

If you cannot enter into a legal contract or get a tattoo when drunk, sex should definitely be off the table as well! Unfortunately, far too many individuals learn that the hard way.

 

I am going to discuss the concept of too much alcohol in the context of this letter as well. Girls should never have to worry about being "too drunk", but it is a reality. If he can be an advocate at some point in his life and make sure anyone vulnerable gets home safe, I want to encourage it. That goes for male or female. In college it appears to be a much larger issue with women. :(

 

A bit over a year ago I began working in a coffee shop. This meant getting up to open at 3:45am. Dh is a night owl. When he was upset we were not being intimate enough, I commented we just needed to figure out a new situation since I had to go to bed so much earlier. It was not okay for him to wake me up. His response was, "You are my wife. I should be able to have sex with you whenever I want." Needless to say, this did not go over well. I informed him that is rape, it is not okay, and regardless of our relationship consent was necessary. I was allowed to say no since I was a person, not property. Ds overheard the conversation (or at least bits of it) so we discussed rape - a new word for him. I might have him read this next year (age12) so the conversation can continue. As spoken of upthread, we do not seem to discuss this with our sons. Only seems to be telling girls how not to get raped and putting the onus on them.

[Tsuga]

Yes. At the age of 11.

 

I don't have the right to have this talk with my stepson, or I would.

 

To me this is an extension of the good touch / bad touch, you have a right to your body talk we have had since they were like, two. Since the first time I sent them to pre-school, for sure. We didn't have that talk like, the day of school, but it was definitely something I mentioned in an age-appropriate, situation appropriate way. "No matter what another grownup or person says, you can tell me. We don't have secrets."

 

This is just the extension of that.

 

You are a person. Your body is yours. Getting hit on the head, taking drugs, having a mental illness or physical illness that incapacitates you: none of that means your body belongs to someone else.

 

My understanding of rape and sex were incomplete in middle and high school, but I knew enough to be cautious. Not to treat flirting like a joke, like fun. Unfortunately nobody told me about marital rape. I wish they would have. I might have seen it coming. I might have heard his words differently. I am pro-information, and anti-denial.

[kewb]

I had both if my teens read it and we have been discussing. My son was having a difficult time understanding why his lawyer was able to perform character assassination on the victim.

We also discussed the father's 20 minutes of fun comment. Clearly, that apple did not fall far from the tree.

[SKL]

I don't have sons, but my parents always discussed these things with my brothers.  I remember discussing it with my much-younger kid brother.  (I'm not talking about alcohol, but about respecting one's intimate partners and all other women - in general and in specifics.)  So I would have assumed it was part of most boys' upbringing.  Apparently it doesn't stick with some people.  :/

[FO4UR]

I haven't had my kids read her exact words, but I have given the kids a general idea of what happened and what the victim said.  They will hear about this story in the near future.  It's better if they hear about it from me first.

 

Cutesy talk about this sort of thing is dangerous, imho. I think I will print off the victim's entire statement to save in my binder for future talks. She worded everything so vividly, and she hit all of the important points. My kids will read it all, but just not right now.

 

Honestly, at the ages of mine (13/11/10), we focused on the fact that Brock had no right whatsoever to harm her in any way. We focused on the ideas expressed by the judge when he gave him 6mo in jail for such a violent act. And then I talked a lot about the 2 men on their bikes who saved her.  If you see or hear something that seems wrong, something is probably wrong.  Grab a friend to go with you and do what good you can do.

 

I went through several real scenarios in their lives that could be potentially dangerous, and what they could do to avoid danger, and what to do in case of danger. Friends don't let friends get eaten by the Big Bad Wolf...most of their friends are not likely having this sort of talk with their parents. Don't let a buddy go off alone with someone you get the creeper vibe from.

 

Don't partake in even a joke that treats women like trash! That is not a joke.  That is your sister, your mother...

 

I talked to my 13yo about getting older and how he can be respectful to others (not just females) by not invading personal space or speaking about intrusive topics. Kids get away with stuff that teenage boys and young men cannot.  He needs to start being aware that a female might have a real fear of being isolated.  He needs to learn to recognize rape-mentality within his peer group, and shut it down when he can...and be a genuine friend to those who might be vulnerable as he can. 

 

I have shared with them before of a few near-misses of my own. It's important that they realize that these news stories are real people, not fiction. That girl is someone's daughter, someone's sister, and she is really real and she's struggling to move on.  The rapist is a real person too. He didn't look like a rapist before that night, I'm sure.  But he probably made comments and jokes, and had a disrespectful attitude towards women that could have served as a warning to those who knew him...but the victim did not know him. It was not her responsibility to check to see who is a rapist and who is not before attending a party. It was his responsibility to not be a rapist.

 

As they get older, we will talk more about the other aspects of partying too...and other situations where these things happen with more frequency.

[MeghansMom]

Yes. My daughter will be 13 in October and I shared the article with her and she has read subsequent articles on the matter. We talked about keeping herself safe, being proactive, not that she is at fault if anything happens regardless of the circumstances. She read every bit of the victim's impact statement. It was powerful.