Have you ever (or do you ever) boil your own live lobster?

[eternalsummer]

 

However, in Re: eating meat. I'm not sensitized to it. It is true there are certain practices that bother me, such as animal feed lots and egg factory farming. I keep my own chickens because this is one place where I can make a tiny difference for five or six chickens. I get delicious, nutritious, fresh eggs and my chickens get a clean, dry coop, feed, and all the bugs and seeds they can scratch up. But even so, there is some level of animal cruelty just in my tiny flock. I have only hens, no cocks; I bought them this way. Somewhere, male chickens were killed because I, and most other keepers don't want roosters. Even where people do want roos, they rarely want more than one.

 

 

 

 

It is not just that male chickens were killed; they were ground up alive.

 

and the hens that laid those eggs - the ones you relied on to create your flock (and presumably replenish it when necessary as you don't have roosters) - they live in the same tiny cages as the battery hens that make the eggs you don't want to buy at the store.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Mercy, I understand your wish to be consistent. It is an important psychological need that all people (unless they are sociopaths) feel. People will actually do some very elaborate lying to themselves to relieve cognitive dissonance.

 

 

Oh goodness yeah.  It's like my mind changes every other day on some issues.  It's difficult.  I think a lot of things we believe isn't quite how we think it is.  We try to make sense of stuff that maybe has no sense. 

[MercyA]

We do not eat factory farmed food, in any form, ever.  Paying someone else to commit a sin for you is not any better than committing the sin, imo.

 

I greatly admire that. I agree with you that paying someone else to abuse animals for me does not lessen my complicity or culpability in the abuse. I need to make some changes.

 

As far as abortion goes, I think collateral damage in warfare (meaning the killing of civilians, I assume) is different than abortion in a few key moral ways, while similar in others. 

 

Sure. I was thinking in the most general of terms--being opposed to the taking of innocent human life. Pro-lifers using potentially abortifacient birth control might be a better example, but I didn't want to open that can of worms here.  ;)

But at any rate, I agree that it is important to be morally consistent, whatever your stance is on an issue, and I have not met anyone (except for strict vegans - and the ones I know of are all pro-choice!) who makes much of an effort at consistency.

 

I am fortunate to have a husband and parents who value consistency, but it does seem of little importance to many people, at least in my circles. 

 

The years in which I was a strict ovo-vegetarian were also the years in which I was most involved in pro-life activism. I will always remember when an activist friend and I were approached on the street, as often happened, by someone who wanted to argue with us. She demanded, "So, are you vegetarians, too?" We were happy to tell her that, yes, we both were.

 

It is good to be morally consistent. Thank you for the encouragement, ananemone. "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[MEmama]

It is not just that male chickens were killed; they were ground up alive.

 

and the hens that laid those eggs - the ones you relied on to create your flock (and presumably replenish it when necessary as you don't have roosters) - they live in the same tiny cages as the battery hens that make the eggs you don't want to buy at the store.

But Quill is acknowledging the imperfectness of the system, as are many of us.

 

What is your solution? Even vegan diets are incredibly hard on the environment, and many of the meat alternatives are simply factory produced fillers. I'm not knocking that choice, but it's full of inconsistencies too. I think the best any of us can do is educate ourselves, make intentional choices, and recognize that there is no one perfect way.

[Guest]

It is not just that male chickens were killed; they were ground up alive.

 

and the hens that laid those eggs - the ones you relied on to create your flock (and presumably replenish it when necessary as you don't have roosters) - they live in the same tiny cages as the battery hens that make the eggs you don't want to buy at the store.

I'm sure they may be. I don't think it is always done in this fashion, though, not that that makes any big difference. Once, the field behind our house had big piles of fertilizer that was obviously from chicken farming. It stunk to high heaven. My kids walked over to investigate it and reported back that there were thousands of tiny bird skeletons in it. There's no way to know for certain, but I postulated that they were the skeletons of male chicks. Who knows, though. Maybe a virus killed a thousand chicks.

 

And yes - I buy my poulets from a local farm store and the farmers that bring the poulets for distribution don't appear to have any tender feelings for the hens as they hold them inverted and stuff them into my crate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

But at any rate, I agree that it is important to be morally consistent, whatever your stance is on an issue, and I have not met anyone (except for strict vegans - and the ones I know of are all pro-choice!) who makes much of an effort at consistency.

 

It is, but then again I don't believe in being so rigid in thinking that you won't consider other possibilities.  Over time we may learn more or come to understand something differently.  And if someone cannot be consistent no matter how honestly they try, maybe there is something wrong with the idea we are attempting to adhere to.  Following something no matter what to me is not necessarily a sign of high intelligence or admirable moral thinking.  It could be a sign of the inability to consider other possibilities or an unwillingness to learn.

 

I tend to be rigid in thinking.  For example religion is a big one for me.  As a young kid I followed it closely, and I insisted on it.  Following these rules was a sort of comfort to me.  But then I noticed nobody around me followed most of the rules.  They preached a lot about the rules, but they didn't follow them.  So I started to wonder about the rules.  As I was able to think about those details the whole thing fell apart.  And eventually I just didn't believe any of it.  The evidence is not there and requires too much of a stretch in thinking for me.  So then for some years after I felt the need to challenge other people's beliefs.  Surely they just weren't thinking about it the right way.  But then after I finished with that "phase" I started to change my mind.  I do believe religion is important to a lot of people and it's not right of me to convince them they are wrong.  So now I just accept that for whatever reason I don't see things the same way, but that's not good or bad.  It just is.  And i could be completely wrong.  I'm ok with that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm sure they may be. I don't think it is always done in this fashion, though, not that that makes any big difference. Once, the field behind our house had big piles of fertilizer that was obviously from chicken farming. It stunk to high heaven. My kids walked over to investigate it and reported back that there were thousands of tiny bird skeletons in it. There's no way to know for certain, but I postulated that they were the skeletons of male chicks. Who knows, though. Maybe a virus killed a thousand chicks.

 

And yes - I buy my poulets from a local farm store and the farmers that bring the poulets for distribution don't appear to have any tender feelings for the hens as they hold them inverted and stuff them into my crate.

 

I had a friend some years ago who raised her own chickens (and other animals).  I once asked her if she gets attached to the animals.  She said oh gawd no...chickens are dumb...really really dumb.  You feel like it's a mercy killing they are so dumb.  LOL

 

And she was an animal lover!  She even named most of her animals.  But yeah...that's probably why it all worked out for her.

[barnwife]

And yes - I buy my poulets from a local farm store and the farmers that bring the poulets for distribution don't appear to have any tender feelings for the hens as they hold them inverted and stuff them into my crate.

I have nothing to add but an anecdote.

 

We have chickens. The first time I saw DH carrying them upside-down I was horrified. I mean, I wouldn't want to be carried that way. However I have come to realize that it is an efficient way to carry multiple birds without harming them.

 

Once you have a hold of the feet and flip them, they flap a few times from the surprise. Then are are quite still until set down with no harm done.

 

Anyway, now I am not horrified by this any longer. 

[Guest]

I have nothing to add but an anecdote.

 

We have chickens. The first time I saw DH carrying them upside-down I was horrified. I mean, I wouldn't want to be carried that way. However I have come to realize that it is an efficient way to carry multiple birds without harming them.

 

Once you have a hold of the feet and flip them, they flap a few times from the surprise. Then are are quite still until set down with no harm done.

 

Anyway, now I am not horrified by this any longer.

One of my very gentle, loving mom friends took her small children with her the first time she went to buy poulets. She was envisioning this beautiful, gentle exchange of the birds, but obviously, it was extremely different from this idyllic picture. She siad her children were crying because the men were so...umm, no-nonsense in handling the birds.

[MercyA]

It is, but then again I don't believe in being so rigid in thinking that you won't consider other possibilities.  Over time we may learn more or come to understand something differently.  And if someone cannot be consistent no matter how honestly they try, maybe there is something wrong with the idea we are attempting to adhere to.  Following something no matter what to me is not necessarily a sign of high intelligence or admirable moral thinking.  It could be a sign of the inability to consider other possibilities or an unwillingness to learn.

 

I agree that there is usually no particular value in an unthinking kind of consistency. And, of course, there is never any value in being consistently wrong! I always try be open to the possibility that I might be lacking in understanding or knowledge of a given issue. However, just because something is hard to do (or not do) consistently doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.  

[hornblower]

I had a friend some years ago who raised her own chickens (and other animals).  I once asked her if she gets attached to the animals.  She said oh gawd no...chickens are dumb...really really dumb.  You feel like it's a mercy killing they are so dumb.  LOL

 

And she was an animal lover!  She even named most of her animals.  But yeah...that's probably why it all worked out for her.

 

Chickens are SO NOT DUMB. 

 

You can clicker train chickens to discriminate shapes, colors, to pull things, to walk an agility obstacle course.  They're not dumb at all. 

 

https://youtu.be/lUahZswnbZE?t=47s

 

https://youtu.be/HPrJLkzymhM?t=38s

 

 

[Guest]

 

Chickens are SO NOT DUMB.

 

You can clicker train chickens to discriminate shapes, colors, to pull things, to walk an agility obstacle course. They're not dumb at all.

 

 

 

 

Well, chickens habituate very easily, but I don't think that equals smart. When my dog was still alive, I had to keep the chickens on the outside of the fence to the dog yard. He was very prey-driven and would (and did) kill a chicken immediately given the chance. But after my dog died, I wanted the chickens to go into the yard and get all the yummy bugs in there. Man, I could not make them stay in that yard come hell nor high water. They would scurry under the fence to get back to the habitual outside of the yard. They don't think they "belong" in the yard, so they don't want to stay there.

[hornblower]

The clicker trained chickens are not habituated. They've learned a new complicated behavior / have chained a series of behaviors together. 


The issue of how we define intelligence is not that simple. There are PhD programs in cognition and ethology exploring this & it's an extremely complicated field. 

A new book on this subject by primatologist Frans de Waal : Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

 

Here's a brief write up of the book by another ethologist https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201604/are-we-smart-enough-know-how-smart-animals-are

 

"People often assume a cognitive ladder, from lower to higher forms, with our own intelligence at the top. But what if it is more like a bush, with cognition taking different forms that are often incomparable to ours? Would you presume yourself dumber than a squirrel because you’re less adept at recalling the locations of hundreds of buried acorns? Or would you judge your perception of your surroundings as more sophisticated than that of a echolocating bat? "

Edited June 7, 2016 by hornblower

[eternalsummer]

It is, but then again I don't believe in being so rigid in thinking that you won't consider other possibilities.  Over time we may learn more or come to understand something differently.  And if someone cannot be consistent no matter how honestly they try, maybe there is something wrong with the idea we are attempting to adhere to.  Following something no matter what to me is not necessarily a sign of high intelligence or admirable moral thinking.  It could be a sign of the inability to consider other possibilities or an unwillingness to learn.

 

 

Oh, I totally believe in changing your mind about things when it's warranted!  And while I am not religious I can see the value in religion and I can accept that for some people, a particular religion is the vehicle through which they understand the world and the framework of their moral conception.  I don't think that's inconsistent on my part - it's kind of like saying, I love my kids and value the love of one's kids, but I understand that other people's love of kids comes from their love of their *own* kids, not necessarily mine.

 

Or, like for Hindus, I read the Bhagavad-Gita (spelling probably wrong) and it references spirituality and human responsibilities and etc. in terms of often local landforms (the Himalayas, and the Ganges, and etc.).  That doesn't make the conclusions incorrect - it's just the filter through which people (generally of that region) draw those conclusions, if that makes sense.

 

In that way, changing your mind when you have new evidence, or when you've thought through something again, isn't inconsistent - it's vital!  

 

But doing the right thing as you see it no matter what - even if you have changed the way you see the right thing for whatever reason - is also vital.

 

 

So for me, moral consistency means not always having the same idea forever, but also not saying, well, I know this is the right thing, but I just can't do it for (this lousy excuse, mostly money or convenience).  I know factory farming is wrong, but I'm just so hungry right now and I really like cheeseburgers, or whatever.

[eternalsummer]

But Quill is acknowledging the imperfectness of the system, as are many of us.

 

What is your solution? Even vegan diets are incredibly hard on the environment, and many of the meat alternatives are simply factory produced fillers. I'm not knocking that choice, but it's full of inconsistencies too. I think the best any of us can do is educate ourselves, make intentional choices, and recognize that there is no one perfect way.

 

I don't eat meat alternatives, and I am not a vegan.

 

I don't eat factory farmed animal products, ever.  It is possible.  I did it when we were super poor, and I do it now.

 

With respect to eggs, I found a farmer who doesn't kill the male chicks  - what she does is use a dual-purpose breed, where the hens lay fewer eggs and (I assume) the male chickens (roosters?  right?) are stringier and don't grow as big as if you were trying to raise meat chickens for the meat.

 

Then she charges a bunch for the eggs, and doesn't have them all the time.  She doesn't sell them in any stores.  I have not found a store brand (even those $8/dozen Vital farms) who don't buy sexed pullets, though the Vital farms people told me they would love to hatch their own chicks eventually and not have to buy sexed pullets.

 

It's just not economically viable, which makes sense to me.

 

 

Before we found this lady I hadn't eaten an egg in years.  I would be fine not eating an egg in years again if necessary.  It's a pain to make things like cookies and muffins but that flax egg substitute thing works okay.

 

If I wanted to raise chickens and eggs (which I don't as the neighbors have some and they are *loud*), I would do one of two things: I'd rescue hens maybe (get ones people were tired of and didn't want to care for anymore), or buy unsexed eggs and raise the roosters too and eat them eventually, and hatch my own eggs.

 

I don't think our city allows roosters so I'd have to move out to the country to do this, and I imagine it would cost an arm and a leg, but if I really wanted to eat eggs that's how I'd do it.

 

 

 

I am not a vegan.  I eat wild-caught anything (I think killing something to eat it is natural and morally acceptable, although I accept the alternate proposition and find vegans morally consistent, largely speaking), and for red meat I eat pastured, killed in the field (no slaughterhouse) bison.  

 

 

I don't drink milk or eat dairy at all.  I haven't found anyone who can do it without separating mother and calf/kid/etc.  I guess I could do that myself too if I kept a cow or something but it would be a massive pain.

 

I have heard of a local farm that keeps mother and calf together and just takes milk on the side; they charge $12/gallon for milk and you have to buy a share of the cow to get it (it's like $50/month for one gallon a week).  I have avoided it thus far because we're okay without milk and $12/gallon is just a lot of money!  Also I am not 100% sure I trust the process.

[MEmama]

I don't eat meat alternatives, and I am not a vegan.

 

I don't eat factory farmed animal products, ever. It is possible. I did it when we were super poor, and I do it now.

 

With respect to eggs, I found a farmer who doesn't kill the male chicks - what she does is use a dual-purpose breed, where the hens lay fewer eggs and (I assume) the male chickens (roosters? right?) are stringier and don't grow as big as if you were trying to raise meat chickens for the meat.

 

Then she charges a bunch for the eggs, and doesn't have them all the time. She doesn't sell them in any stores. I have not found a store brand (even those $8/dozen Vital farms) who don't buy sexed pullets, though the Vital farms people told me they would love to hatch their own chicks eventually and not have to buy sexed pullets.

 

It's just not economically viable, which makes sense to me.

 

 

Before we found this lady I hadn't eaten an egg in years. I would be fine not eating an egg in years again if necessary. It's a pain to make things like cookies and muffins but that flax egg substitute thing works okay.

 

If I wanted to raise chickens and eggs (which I don't as the neighbors have some and they are *loud*), I would do one of two things: I'd rescue hens maybe (get ones people were tired of and didn't want to care for anymore), or buy unsexed eggs and raise the roosters too and eat them eventually, and hatch my own eggs.

 

I don't think our city allows roosters so I'd have to move out to the country to do this, and I imagine it would cost an arm and a leg, but if I really wanted to eat eggs that's how I'd do it.

 

 

 

I am not a vegan. I eat wild-caught anything (I think killing something to eat it is natural and morally acceptable, although I accept the alternate proposition and find vegans morally consistent, largely speaking), and for red meat I eat pastured, killed in the field (no slaughterhouse) bison.

 

 

I don't drink milk or eat dairy at all. I haven't found anyone who can do it without separating mother and calf/kid/etc. I guess I could do that myself too if I kept a cow or something but it would be a massive pain.

 

I have heard of a local farm that keeps mother and calf together and just takes milk on the side; they charge $12/gallon for milk and you have to buy a share of the cow to get it (it's like $50/month for one gallon a week). I have avoided it thus far because we're okay without milk and $12/gallon is just a lot of money! Also I am not 100% sure I trust the process.

Um, okay?

 

Glad you've found your way. Thankfully there are lots of them. :)

[eternalsummer]

I do have a couple of questions that are semi-relevant to the OP:

 

Does anyone know how they kill the cooked crab you get at the supermarket?  Do they just boil these things en masse?  Or do they kill them some other way?  I can't find it googling (spent an hour!) but my google skills might not be the absolute best.

 

Also, do any of the vegans here eat fast food like french fries that is cooked in a communal fryer with meat or dairy products?  Do you have any insider info on this kind of thing?  I used to eat Wendy's fries but DH pointed out that I was eating factory farmed milk thereby (b/c of the fryers) so I am afraid I might be limited to Chic Fil A fries (which have a separate fryer), which would severely limit my french-fry eating.  That might be a good thing, though.

 

 

[eternalsummer]

 

It is good to be morally consistent. Thank you for the encouragement, ananemone. "Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

 

It is very hard to maintain moral consistency, or even moral behavior, in a society that directly challenges it in many ways.  I often think of how easy it would be to live in a society with one religion, one set of morals, one standard, and where the government is religious as well.  You wouldn't have to go against the grain, or think much for yourself, or constantly question what you are told.

 

On the other hand, a diverse and free society, like we have, has led to amazing technological progress and discovery.  I am sure there is a balance (even American society used to have many more universal standards and a lot more homogeneity, which made things easier, I guess).

 

Having lived somewhere else for a while, I am glad to be American.  But it is hard.  I don't know if people are designed to think independently, honestly.  I think possibly society hums along smoothest when most people don't have to think independently, but instead go with the flow - as long as the flow is sustainable and correct :)

 

 

The way DH and I think of it is that the vast majority of people are doing the best they can.  The fact that they don't question question everything and push push to do the right thing in every situation drives me *insane* - even people who know better, in our personal lives, continue to eat factory farmed food.  Drives me crazy!

 

But I remember that people are not designed to act independently of social norms.  I can hold them individually responsible - like I can say, yes, you are doing the wrong thing in this way or that way (larger than just eating of course - lots of social norms in this society seem off to me), but you are probably doing the best you can, and ultimately it is society that is failing, not every individual, if that makes sense.

 

 

 

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, Quill!  It is a good jumping-off point for the contradictions in what we feel is wrong (boiling lobsters alive) or just personally difficult (boiling lobsters alive) but will accept if others will just do it on our behalf.

[eternalsummer]

Also have you seen those videos of eating frogs and etc. alive in Japan?  It's a certain type of sushi or something.  I saw it accidentally on 4chan/pol once.

 

Super creepy, but I don't know that it is worse than a lot of the ways we treat animals in the US, just more obvious, if that makes sense.

[hornblower]

 

 

Also, do any of the vegans here eat fast food like french fries that is cooked in a communal fryer with meat or dairy products?  

I occasionally eat fast food fries. 

 

I would not eat fries from a place that I knew fried communally.  IME what happens in these restaurants  - even in the big chains - really varies from location to location & definitely it's different in US & Canada, so I just ask. I ask pretty much each time because policies/recipes change. 

 

[eternalsummer]

Ah, I hate asking.  DH doesn't mind but it makes me feel obnoxious.  

 

I do call ahead sometimes (and then hope they don't recognize my voice when I come in) to ask about certain menu items and dairy/eggs.

 

 

Now I really want fries but it is hailing outside and I can't go to Wendy's anyway :(.

[hornblower]

There are other animals eaten alive in parts of the world.  Monkey brains. 

The dog meat festival got lots of press because several groups were organizing transports to rescue the dogs. Dogs skinned alive is not really something most of us would be ok with, would we? 

So how are we drawing the lines on what is ok & what isn't? 

[Guest]

I do have a couple of questions that are semi-relevant to the OP:

 

Does anyone know how they kill the cooked crab you get at the supermarket? Do they just boil these things en masse? Or do they kill them some other way? I can't find it googling (spent an hour!) but my google skills might not be the absolute best.

 

Also, do any of the vegans here eat fast food like french fries that is cooked in a communal fryer with meat or dairy products? Do you have any insider info on this kind of thing? I used to eat Wendy's fries but DH pointed out that I was eating factory farmed milk thereby (b/c of the fryers) so I am afraid I might be limited to Chic Fil A fries (which have a separate fryer), which would severely limit my french-fry eating. That might be a good thing, though.

I cannot say with certainty, but I would bet a dollar supermarket crab meat is steamed en masse. I saw a documentary once about te women who live on Tangier Island in the Chesapeake and work in crab packing. The crabs are hand-picked (at least, there they are), but the workers are super-fast crab pickers. Seeing how efficiency is of the essence, I highly doubt anyone is "humanely" stabbing a thousand crabs a day.

 

Also, as a generalization, people who have grown up with waterman culture are pretty unlikely to stare at a crab (or oyster, or mussle, or whatever) one day and think this is a cruel way for them to die and they should be killed more humanely. Could it happen? It could. But it's not that likely.

[MercyA]

Um, okay?

 

You did ask her.  :) I appreciated the post about your diet, ananemone. I know you don't consume any factory-farmed animals or products but still eat meat, and I've been curious to know how you manage it.

 

The issue of how we define intelligence is not that simple. There are PhD programs in cognition and ethology exploring this & it's an extremely complicated field. 

 

A new book on this subject by primatologist Frans de Waal : Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are?

 

Here's a brief write up of the book by another ethologist https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201604/are-we-smart-enough-know-how-smart-animals-are

 

"People often assume a cognitive ladder, from lower to higher forms, with our own intelligence at the top. But what if it is more like a bush, with cognition taking different forms that are often incomparable to ours? Would you presume yourself dumber than a squirrel because you’re less adept at recalling the locations of hundreds of buried acorns? Or would you judge your perception of your surroundings as more sophisticated than that of a echolocating bat? "

 

This reminded me of a passage from a book I'm currently reading, Eating Animals (thanks for the recommendation on another thread, ananemone!):

 

"Intelligence used to be narrowly defined as intellectual ability (book smarts); we now consider multiple intelligences, such as visual-spatial, interpersonal, emotional, and musical. A cheetah is not intelligent because it can run fast. But its uncanny ability to map space--to find the hypotenuse, to anticipate and counter the movements of prey--is a kind of mental work that matters. To write this off as instinct makes about as much sense as equating the kick that results from a physician's mallet tapping your knee to your being able to successfully take a penalty kick in a soccer game."

 

Also have you seen those videos of eating frogs and etc. alive in Japan?  It's a certain type of sushi or something.  I saw it accidentally on 4chan/pol once.

 

Super creepy, but I don't know that it is worse than a lot of the ways we treat animals in the US, just more obvious, if that makes sense.

 

When my husband's colleague was in Japan, a live snake was brought to the dinner table and slit open. The blood of the still living snake was sprayed over the food. :(  

 

Slightly off-topic, but when my husband was in China, restaurant employees often attempted to reassure Americans about their food, stating, "It's beef, it's beef." This in spite of the fact that the dishes in question were often full of identifiable, non-bovine body parts, like tiny eyeballs. 

 

So how are we drawing the lines on what is ok & what isn't? 

 

 

That's a very good question. I think most of the time we're not thinking about it at all, and our culture makes it easy for us to look away from uncomfortable truths.

[kiwik]

It is actually an offence under the animal welfare act in New Zealand.  A lot of people don't realise this and there was a big stink when a cooking show contestant did it on live TV.  The approved way involves chilling to sort of suspended animation then piercing the brain.  I don't eat seafood but we had to kill some large crabs for part of a marine toxin experiment (for which we had ethics approval).