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Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...

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I think those would be reasonable, maybe, to discuss in some other thread, but not in relation to a woman who was assaulted while unconscious behind a dumpster. To attach the conversation about women just regretting sex to that conversation is to conflate the two. 

I almost agree with you, except that we are 4 long pages into this convo, and everyone who has asked about that other topic has explicitedly disavowed relating it to this case.  So I'm on the fence about that.

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Read this long, but very powerful letter written by the victim of a frat party sexual assault, to her convicted rapist. (who only got *6 months* jail time because the judge thought more than that would be "too harsh"  :cursing: )

 

 

 

The rapist deserved and should have received a harsh sentence.

 

And the victim was victimized twice, first by her own stupidity and then by the monster who raped her.  

 

My daughter was reading about this case in the newspaper this morning and was very upset.  She started reading the article to me, so I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to discuss it.  The part about the young woman drinking 4 shot glasses of whiskey before going to the frat party and then drinking vodka while she was at the party...I said "What an idiot!"  and I told my daughter that this is what can happen when a woman gets drunk like that...some monster could attack her and hurt her.  

 

She was a victim alright...and not just of the "rape culture" but also the alcohol culture.   But if something bad was going to happen, I'm thankful that she was the only victim of her drunkenness.   Thank goodness she didn't drive drunk and kill/injure others. 

 

My daughter is 19 and has autism.  She likes to read the newspaper, but she also still watches tv shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.  I'd much rather let her think everyone is a good neighbor, like on the tv show.  But I know that she's more vulnerable to being attacked without even taking one drink.  There's no sugarcoating it.   This is the harsh reality that we live with 24/7.  And I just wish more young women would realize before it's too late that drinking heavily is like making themselves temporarily disabled.  Rape is not a new crime,  but modern practices have taken the place of things like chaperones that were obviously meant to try to protect women.    Most modern women don't want to be viewed as being weaker or needing protection.    And here we are... 

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Yeah, no one was ever raped in the (rich people only, btw) "age of chaperones." and calling a rape victim an idiot is super helpful.

----------------------------

This whole conversation is very unsettling. Every single poster knows FOR SURE that helpless children are raped....knows that bed-ridden elderly women are raped....knows that burka-clad, never even SEEN alcohol in their lives women are raped....knows that boys as well as girls are raped...

 

and yet!

 

So many people want to play the pretend game that if you do the right things you won't get raped. I increasingly feel like this is not necessarily a lack of compassion, but maybe a lack of humility.

 

All evidence points to the fact that rapists will rape.  Conversations about reasonable safety measures are asides (which we have covered thrice over from every angle in this thread already). 

 

Women are crying out for the PROTECTION of a society that full-stop, no exceptions decries rape for the evil that it is.

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The rapist deserved and should have received a harsh sentence.

 

And the victim was victimized twice, first by her own stupidity and then by the monster who raped her.  

 

My daughter was reading about this case in the newspaper this morning and was very upset.  She started reading the article to me, so I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to discuss it.  The part about the young woman drinking 4 shot glasses of whiskey before going to the frat party and then drinking vodka while she was at the party...I said "What an idiot!"  and I told my daughter that this is what can happen when a woman gets drunk like that...some monster could attack her and hurt her.

 

She was a victim alright...and not just of the "rape culture" but also the alcohol culture.   But if something bad was going to happen, I'm thankful that she was the only victim of her drunkenness.   Thank goodness she didn't drive drunk and kill/injure others. 

 

My daughter is 19 and has autism.  She likes to read the newspaper, but she also still watches tv shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.  I'd much rather let her think everyone is a good neighbor, like on the tv show.  But I know that she's more vulnerable to being attacked without even taking one drink.  There's no sugarcoating it.   This is the harsh reality that we live with 24/7.  And I just wish more young women would realize before it's too late that drinking heavily is like making themselves temporarily disabled.  Rape is not a new crime,  but modern practices have taken the place of things like chaperones that were obviously meant to try to protect women.    Most modern women don't want to be viewed as being weaker or needing protection.    And here we are... 

 

 

That's what can happen when she's not drunk like that because monsters are monsters. 

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And when it happened when I was older, well, obviously I should have known better. No way was I going to get dragged into a big trial as a single mom, living with my parents, etc etc. Even my own friends thought I must have been into the guy. I'd recently broken up with my boy friend (whom I am now married to, it was a brief breakup and I was devastated). Everyone thought I was just on the rebound. Except I found the guy creepy and gross. And he hurt me, physically. But even then, all those "well what did you drink, are you sure you didn't lead him one, etc etc) questions went through my mind. Had I actually DONE anything about it, that would have been so much worse. Because when a woman gets raped, that's what people talk about. Even here, in a group of women that should know better. No rape victim wants people dissecting her life like that. So it's easier not to do anything. And then the guy goes and does it again, to someone else. 

 

Every time we talk about what the victim's responsibility was, we make it harder for victims to speak up. Which means more rapists keep raping. 

Yes. Women silence other women by pecking them apart. I think that is because they convince themselves that "so long as I don't make the same decisions Sheeeee did (insert finger pointing) then I won't be raped." The myth perpetuated not because there is even an ounce of truth to it, but because it creates a false sense of mental security. The unintended consequence then is that victims don't report because of how they are treated, and the rapist gets away with his crimes which emboldens him to do it again. It isn't that there is this huge plethora of rapists out there. On the contrary, most guys, most people, do not rape. Its that this little minority of scums get away it again and again. They tend to have a lot of victims over the course of their raping conquest.

 

Which goes back to the much needed understanding of rape itself. It isn't about the sex act itself because consenting partners can be found. That part isn't all that difficult. It goes back to wanting to take from the victim something that wasn't offered, to harm her or him, to exercise power and dominion, to get high off the rush of causing pain. Its sick. Sick and twisted. There may be a few rapists that get caught and learn their lesson the first time, do not repeat. But when that happens it is the getting caught part, the punishment part, the being put in a sexual offenders class, dealing with psychiatrists and therapists, and parole officers, and .....that is probably the thing that turns them around. Most rapists don't have this occur because they aren't reported much less prosecuted. And believe me, the way that defense attorneys are allowed to behave in court towards victims is cruel and unusual. The constitution guarantees no cruel and unusual punishment to the offender, but anything goes for the victim and that is another reason that between being crucified in the court of public opinion followed by the torture known as our criminal court system, the vast majority of rape victims remain silent.

 

So we at least as women can do this one thing, this one really important thing to ease the pain within our sisterhood. We can stop the pecking. We can stop perpetuating the myth that rapists can be stopped simply by changing specific behaviors within our gender. Not happening. We can find ways to teach our sons to NOT RAPE and to keep themselves safe, and we can find ways to teach safety and self defense to our daughters (and really, given the sheer number of female teachers in recent years seducing students we also need to teach DON'T RAPE to our girls too) and safety as well without putting in the context of a false sense of security or framing it in any way that would make it appear that victims have responsibility for the rape. We can and should frame these discussions in ways that make sure we are safe people for a hurting person to come and say, "This happened to me." 

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The rapist deserved and should have received a harsh sentence.

 

And the victim was victimized twice, first by her own stupidity and then by the monster who raped her.  

 

My daughter was reading about this case in the newspaper this morning and was very upset.  She started reading the article to me, so I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to discuss it.  The part about the young woman drinking 4 shot glasses of whiskey before going to the frat party and then drinking vodka while she was at the party...I said "What an idiot!"  and I told my daughter that this is what can happen when a woman gets drunk like that...some monster could attack her and hurt her.  

 

She was a victim alright...and not just of the "rape culture" but also the alcohol culture.   But if something bad was going to happen, I'm thankful that she was the only victim of her drunkenness.   Thank goodness she didn't drive drunk and kill/injure others. 

 

My daughter is 19 and has autism.  She likes to read the newspaper, but she also still watches tv shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.  I'd much rather let her think everyone is a good neighbor, like on the tv show.  But I know that she's more vulnerable to being attacked without even taking one drink.  There's no sugarcoating it.   This is the harsh reality that we live with 24/7.  And I just wish more young women would realize before it's too late that drinking heavily is like making themselves temporarily disabled.  Rape is not a new crime,  but modern practices have taken the place of things like chaperones that were obviously meant to try to protect women.    Most modern women don't want to be viewed as being weaker or needing protection.    And here we are... 

 

No matter how much she drinks, if there isn't a rapist present then she doesn't get raped.

 

If we need protection simply to be in the presence of males, then there is something terribly wrong with the world.  Instead of berating women who drink, perhaps you should direct your scorn towards the actual rapists?

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1) Why we're having this discussion here is because this is where the conversation turned.

 

2) Don't put words in people's mouths; a discussion is impossible at that point.

 

3) I have been very clear on my position about the case in the OP.  That was clearly rape IMO.  Other cases are not always so clear.

 

4) I get frustrated when these conversations always turn to "you must be OK with rape then."  Not to put words in your mouth or anything.

 

The conversation turned here because ..... why?  Why do you think the conversation turned this way? In a case of forcible rape of an unconscious person  that led to a six month sentence, why are we debated whether drunk girls at parties ....  (what)?  I don't even know what we're talking about really.

 

It appears to me that it's because while there is "clearly rape" and "not so clear",  somehow it is very , very important to point out that the woman was drinking, that women drinking leads to rape, that not all things some women label "rape" are actually "rape".  I wish I knew why this was so very important. I don't. But it's entirely predictable that it did.

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So we at least as women can do this one thing, this one really important thing to ease the pain within our sisterhood. We can stop the pecking. We can stop perpetuating the myth that rapists can be stopped simply by changing specific behaviors within our gender. Not happening. We can find ways to teach our sons to NOT RAPE and to keep themselves safe, and we can find ways to teach safety and self defense to our daughters (and really, given the sheer number of female teachers in recent years seducing students we also need to teach DON'T RAPE to our girls too) and safety as well without putting in the context of a false sense of security or framing it in any way that would make it appear that victims have responsibility for the rape. We can and should frame these discussions in ways that make sure we are safe people for a hurting person to come and say, "This happened to me." 

 

 

My mother taught me that smart people learn from other people's mistakes so that they don't have to make those mistakes themselves.  

 

I'd rather try to prevent the pain from happening in the first place.    It's too late for the woman in this case, but maybe someone else will learn from her mistakes.  And I believe she was not acting in her own best interest by drinking to excess.  

 

As for finding ways to teach sons not to rape....Well, at my son's UNIVERSITY campus (not a preschool)  they think having young men play racing games while riding inflatable ponies is going to help.  I don't, and I told him not to let anyone make him act like a fool.  But college campuses are getting ridiculous with the ways they are infantilizing young adults rather than making them grow up and take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Laurie

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Here is an article about the methodology. And it is hardly a movement telling women who regret sex to claim rape.

 

http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

 

The question, according to this article, was:

 

"Since you began college, has someone had sexual contact with you when you were unable to provide consent or stop what was happening because you were passed out, drugged, drunk, incapacitated, or asleep?"

 

 

 

I've been in the situation of "waking up" from a drunken stupor in the middle of sex. Since it was with my then-boyfriend, now-DH, it was a situation where there was not a need for "affirmative consent" for any specific act. The researchers may count that as "rape" but that definition defies common sense.

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The question, according to this article, was:

 

 

I've been in the situation of "waking up" from a drunken stupor in the middle of sex. Since it was with my then-boyfriend, now-DH, it was a situation where there was not a need for "affirmative consent" for any specific act. The researchers may count that as "rape" but that definition defies common sense.

 

Again, SKL said there was a movement telling women that if they regretted having sex to claim it was rape. Nothing you have said here shows that such a movement exists.

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My mother taught me that smart people learn from other people's mistakes so that they don't have to make those mistakes themselves.  

 

.

 

It is telling that you think it's not a mistake to call a woman who got raped an idiot because she got raped. 

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The question, according to this article, was:

 

 

I've been in the situation of "waking up" from a drunken stupor in the middle of sex. Since it was with my then-boyfriend, now-DH, it was a situation where there was not a need for "affirmative consent" for any specific act. The researchers may count that as "rape" but that definition defies common sense.

 

Right, and you wouldn't report it as rape, so why people insist on talking about it makes no sense to me. Is there a rash of women reporting sex with their husbands/boyfriends to the police?  Are men being convicted for this? I don't think so. 

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Nm, again.   Time for me to do focus on something else today!

Edited by marbel

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Right, and you wouldn't report it as rape, so why people insist on talking about it makes no sense to me. Is there a rash of women reporting sex with their husbands/boyfriends to the police? Are men being convicted for this? I don't think so.

They are not. This is just an idea that has grown out of the "she said yes but changed her mind" defense that is often trotted out.

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It is telling that you think it's not a mistake to call a woman who got raped an idiot because she got raped.

But she should have known better for drinking because men can't be trusted!

 

Yet nothing is ever said about the males.

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The crime was interrupted and I suspect it would be hard to prove rape vs. attempted rape since he didn't get the chance to finish what he was doing IYKWIM.

Not hard at all. If he didn't get to finish what he planned, attempted rape is the correct charge. Had it not been for the men on the bicycles, he may well have raped her.

 

It's the same for murder. People are charged with murder only if the victim is dead. An unsuccessful murder is charged as 'attempted murder.'

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No matter how much she drinks, if there isn't a rapist present then she doesn't get raped.

 

If we need protection simply to be in the presence of males, then there is something terribly wrong with the world. Instead of berating women who drink, perhaps you should direct your scorn towards the actual rapists?

Being in denial of reality is not going to stop rapists either.

 

I have no scorn for a woman raped.

 

And yet I'm not going to live in denial of reality either.

 

Yes. We need protection. We just do. We shouldn't. But we do. The same as children, the elderly and many other situations where anyone who has a clue about reality knows someone is upping their risk of being a victim of a crime, be it rape or some other. Recognizing the risk is not the same as victim blaming. Reducing our risk is also not the same as victim blaming. And it has no baring at all on how much punishment should be meted out to the criminal.

 

Personally, it is my belief that a woman should be able to walk about buck naked and still expect men to control themselves. It is even my belief that most men would. Being all optimistic for humanity.

 

But as much as I hope for the best, I can't deny it is foolish to refuse to plan for the worst. We know for a fact the worst of humanity does exist and we know for a fact avoiding the worst of humanity or reducing their ability to act against the good is to our own benefit.

 

So yes, I tell ALL my kids that they should take steps to reduce their risk of being a victim or of being accused.

 

No means no in any form that is not a coherent yes.

 

Avoid being alone with people of the opposite gender to avoid any question of "he said vs she said". (Bc like it or not, most sex crimes do boil down to he said vs she said and no, I don't think anyone should have their life and reputation ruined based on that alone. In most rape cases, there's just not enough evidence.)

 

Never risk mental stability in a social/public situation by doing drugs or drinking and always pour for yourself and keep your drink covered and in your hand.

 

Try to always have a good friend or two where everyone is mutual chaperones, there is more safety in numbers.

 

This might not prevent rape. But there's no question that it helps reduce rape opportunity.

If someone doesn't do some or any of this and is raped, it does not mean they deserved what happened.

 

I don't deserve to have my car robbed if I forget to lock it. But locking it does reduce the opportunity. If my car is robbed, whether it was locked or not usually doesn't give the criminal some kind of pass in court either. But yet, most of us the locking our cars is just the smart thing to do regardless of whether we can all agree that none of should have to lock our cars. We shouldn't have to. But we just do.

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Never risk mental stability in a social/public situation by doing drugs or drinking and always pour for yourself and keep your drink covered and in your hand.

 

Are you allowing them to drive? That's far, far more dangerous than not keeping your hand over your non-alcoholic beverage. 

 

I mean, I am all for teaching common sense, but I will not teach my kids to live in constant fear of potentially being raped by some stranger.  That seems like a really outsized response compared to the risk. 

Edited by poppy
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It's pretty common advice these days to tell people not to leave their drinks unattended. Keeping an eye on one's beverage (or having a lid on it, or holding it in a way that makes our inaccessible) in a social situation with strangers isn't exactly living in fear. Neither is locking your car door. It's pretty common sense, even if it shouldn't have to be.

Edited by JodiSue
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I just want to say that I appreciate the honesty of ktgrok and others sharing their experiences.

 

 I am still definitely teaching my daughter about safety, especially about the dangers of alcohol use in certain situations.  I am not doing it in the context of a rape story, or using rape stories as cautionary tales.  Nor do I take those stories as an opportunity to critique the woman, which is what seems to happen every time in the media and in society. If you are doing it to these "other" women, why would the women in your life think you would do otherwise with them? "Oh sure honey, I called her an idiot, but if YOU were raped I would never think that about YOU!" :glare:  It sends the wrong message and I don't want to be part of it.

 

I will use other opportunities to teach my daughter the things she needs to learn.

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Are you allowing them to drive? That's far, far more dangerous than not keeping your hand over your non-alcoholic beverage.

 

I mean, I am all for teaching common sense, but I will not teach my kids to live in constant fear of potentially being raped by some stranger. That seems like a really outsized response compared to the risk.

Are 25% of women likely to suffer a life altering wreck while driving? No.

 

Are 25% of women likely to suffer some form of sexual assault, up to and including rape? Yes.

 

And for that matter, yes, when I see the likelihood of a teen car wreck is very high, I decided to wait. The chances of a major wreck at 16 goes down a LOT at 18, so most of my kids get their license closer to 17 or 18. And I have lots of stipulations and cautions I give them about doing so safely, not just about what they do, but being aware that not all the other drivers on the road are going to be doing as they should.

 

Oddly enough, none of my kids seem to have a constant fear you speak of. If anything, I worry they are very naive. They aren't fearful. If anything they are ridiculously over-trusting.

Edited by Murphy101

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It's pretty common advice these days to tell people not to leave their drinks unattended. Keeping an eye on one's beverage (or having a lid on it, or holding it in a way that makes our inaccessible) in a social situation with strangers isn't exactly living in fear. Neither is locking your car door. It's pretty common sense, even if it shouldn't have to be.

 

FYI, it's as often as not the people you know drugging you, not the strangers. I had met the guy that did it to me several other times. He was the friend of a friend. 

 

And this was recently made public: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/3-women-stop-an-attempted-date-rape-7952176.php

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This thread makes me so sad, we wonder why women don't report rape.

 

 

nm

Edited by soror
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I just want to say that I appreciate the honesty of ktgrok and others sharing their experiences.

 

 I am still definitely teaching my daughter about safety, especially about the dangers of alcohol use in certain situations.  I am not doing it in the context of a rape story, or using rape stories as cautionary tales.  Nor do I take those stories as an opportunity to critique the woman, which is what seems to happen every time in the media and in society. If you are doing it to these "other" women, why would the women in your life think you would do otherwise with them? "Oh sure honey, I called her an idiot, but if YOU were raped I would never think that about YOU!" :glare:  It sends the wrong message and I don't want to be part of it.

 

I will use other opportunities to teach my daughter the things she needs to learn.

 

Exactly. Thank you. 

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FYI, it's as often as not the people you know drugging you, not the strangers. I had met the guy that did it to me several other times. He was the friend of a friend.

 

And this was recently made public: http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/3-women-stop-an-attempted-date-rape-7952176.php

I agree. That's why I don't mention strangers in my post. The goal is to just make it a habit, regardless of the company. And none of that makes it her fault. It's all his fault for being a sicko.

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I just read an article last week maybe about the pervasiveness of slut shaming in college(although it doesn't stop there just changes). Sadly the big problem was other women, not men. For some reason women can't support other women. It is like we are all in some stupid contest or something. It would sure be nice if we could build a community of support instead of looking for ways to blame the women.

Edited by soror
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Again, SKL said there was a movement telling women that if they regretted having sex to claim it was rape. Nothing you have said here shows that such a movement exists.

 

I'm saying that there has been a push to redefine "rape" away from the commonsense definition of using physical force or drugs, etc. to make an unwilling person have sex. Just because someone may be too intoxicated to legally consent does not make that person unwilling and the act "rape". Context matters, and that's the problem with "affirmative consent".

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Not hard at all. If he didn't get to finish what he planned, attempted rape is the correct charge. Had it not been for the men on the bicycles, he may well have raped her.

 

I would personally draw the line between "rape" and "attempted rape" by penetration rather than completion of the act. Once he has violated the sanctity of her body, he's a rapist regardless of whether or not he gets the chance to finish the rape. 

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I'm saying that there has been a push to redefine "rape" away from the commonsense definition of using physical force or drugs, etc. to make an unwilling person have sex. Just because someone may be too intoxicated to legally consent does not make that person unwilling and the act "rape". Context matters, and that's the problem with "affirmative consent".

Which is totally different from saying if you regret it the next morning, call it rape.

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I'm saying that there has been a push to redefine "rape" away from the commonsense definition of using physical force or drugs, etc. to make an unwilling person have sex. Just because someone may be too intoxicated to legally consent does not make that person unwilling and the act "rape". Context matters, and that's the problem with "affirmative consent".

 

Yes, but when is that an issue? Women are not sending their boyfriends to jail for fun, because they were drunk when they had sex. Me and my husband having sex drunk might technically meet the definition, maybe, but I'd have to press charges and go to trial for that to matter. Is there evidence that women are doing this, pressing charges against their lovers just because that is the definition? I don't think there is. 

Edited by ktgrok
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Right, and you wouldn't report it as rape, so why people insist on talking about it makes no sense to me. Is there a rash of women reporting sex with their husbands/boyfriends to the police?  Are men being convicted for this? I don't think so. 

 

Activists are using statistics that lump drunk-but-willing sex in with rape as a way of making rape seem far more prevalent than it actually is in order to further their political agenda. Even a single rape is a horrible tragedy, but using scare tactics to do things like changing the culpability standard from "beyond a reasonable doubt" to "preponderance of evidence" is wrong.

 

As the parent of both daughters and a son, I am concerned with how to protect women on campus from predators while at the same time protecting the male students from accusations stemming out of "morning after" re-evaluation of seemingly willing acts.

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Yes, but when is that an issue? Women are not sending their boyfriends to jail for fun, because they were drunk when they had sex. Me and my husband having sex drunk might technically meet the definition, maybe, but I'd have to press charges and go to trial for that to matter. Is there evidence that women are doing this, pressing charges against their lovers just because that is the definition? I don't think there is.

Emma Sulkowisz (sp?) and "Jackie" from the Rolling Stone case come to mind. Further back, the entire Duke Lacrosse team. Then there was Lena Dunham retroactively accusing someone she slept with of rape in her book. Why would they do that? Who knows? In the first two cases it seemed to be activism of some kind.

 

ETA: only the lacrosse team thing resulted in criminal charges, but the other cases resulted in a lot of other consequences for individuals and frats and such.

Edited by JodiSue
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According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the incidence of rape against females aged 18 to 24 enrolled in college is 6.1 per 1,000. That's probably an underestimate but even if the true incidence is quintuple, that's nowhere remotely close to the "1 in 5" claim.

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I think there are two issues here:

one is that for this case, given that (as I understand it) she was actually unconscious during the rape, the entire fault for the crime belongs with the rapist.  Getting passed out drunk is stupid and will probably lead to bad things, but that doesn't have anything to do with the culpability of the rapist - he is just as guilty of rape as he would be of murder if he found a drunk person passed out and shot them.

 

The second issue is that this is an exceptional case.  In many situations, (I would say the majority but I haven't looked up the statistics), the victim is not wholly incapacitated, as in this case.

 

If you have two people, and both are similarly drunk, who is responsible for sex that one or the other of them regrets later, or that one or the other of them realizes they didn't actually want (as a sober person)?  Is it always the man?  Why?  Surely you could charge a woman with rape in that scenario (given that both parties are drunk and neither is passed out, etc.)  But no one does...

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Activists are using statistics that lump drunk-but-willing sex in with rape as a way of making rape seem far more prevalent than it actually is in order to further their political agenda.

 

I'd say nearly half the women I know have been raped, maybe more. That seems pretty prevalent. 

 

Not sure what political agenda you are referring to.

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According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the incidence of rape against females aged 18 to 24 enrolled in college is 6.1 per 1,000. That's probably an underestimate but even if the true incidence is quintuple, that's nowhere remotely close to the "1 in 5" claim.

 

It is explained in the article.  

 

 

"The NISVS and CSA collect data on incidents of unwanted sexual contact that may not rise to a level of criminal behavior, and respondents may not report incidents to the NCVS that they do not consider to be criminal."

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Not in this present case, but in past cases there has been a movement toward basically telling female students that if they regret sex in hindsight, they should accuse the man of rape.

 

I have been very clear about my opinion regarding this present case.

I don't know why you think that this is the case? What is this 'movement' you speak of? Links?

All the studies I have seen show that a) rape and sexual assault is under reported - by a lot, b) the rate of false accusations is less than 2% - about the same rate as any other crime, c) the rate of charges or convictions for rapists is teeeeeny tiny. Even in this case the guy got the rape charges dropped! And d) who exactly made you the arbiter of when it was 'really' a rape?

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Another metaphor occurred to me while I was walking this evening.  A man goes for a walk along the coast.  He knows that there are tidal risks, but he gets caught up in the beauty of his walk and the excitement of the exercise.  He is trapped by the sea and is so panicked that he does not see that there is a way out of the cove.  The local farmer, who enjoys the feeling of power she experiences through violence, pushes him into the sea, believing that no one will ever know of the crime.

 

The walker was not wise, but that is a completely separate issue from the crime perpetrated by the farmer.  The farmer could have pushed anyone into the sea - someone who was looking through binoculars and didn't see her approach, or someone who was dozing in the sunshine.

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And now I'm unspeakably angry. There are victims in this thread Laurie. You are literally kicking them when they're down. Wanna throw rocks at my friend with PTSD from her assaults? Her life is super easy...

 

1 in 4 women. Seriously. Look around at your group of friends, at your daughter's group of friends, at your mother's, and realize that statistically at least a couple are victims. Not just the drunk ones, not just the promiscuous/slutty/pretty/dumb ones.

 

Stop othering victims! They are not a special class of stupid. They are us! Stop looking to share the blame, rapists rape. The end. We can maybe sometimes dress up as a less easy target, but ONE OF US will be the target.

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The conversation turned here because ..... why? Why do you think the conversation turned this way? In a case of forcible rape of an unconscious person that led to a six month sentence, why are we debated whether drunk girls at parties .... (what)? I don't even know what we're talking about really.

 

It appears to me that it's because while there is "clearly rape" and "not so clear", somehow it is very , very important to point out that the woman was drinking, that women drinking leads to rape, that not all things some women label "rape" are actually "rape". I wish I knew why this was so very important. I don't. But it's entirely predictable that it did.

The conversation didn't even "turn here".

 

The title of the thread is: "well they were both drunk, so..."

 

So yeah, it seems sensible to consider that if at least the woman had not been drunk, she might have greatly reduced his opportunity for raping her.

 

It has nothing to do with her deserving anything. No one deserves to be raped.

 

We know there are rapists out there.

Reducing rape is a double edged sword.

One side is - when there is enough evidence to convict, which is difficult even in a solid case, the sentencing should be just.

The other side is reducing opportunity for rapists. Because we know that just telling them they shouldn't do it is not going to prevent all rape.

 

And interestingly enough, when I suggested in a thread a few weeks ago that all the talk of making sure men understand what consent means and making sure women understand how to say no in a way that men will understand is just another way of saying that the reason women are raped is because they just don't know how to communicate with men - I was roundly called out for being foolish and not understanding sex or rape education. But here we have exactly that. A drunk man claiming he just didn't understand she wouldn't be okay with it. (I think he is full of crap btw.). Few men are that stupid. Rape happens bc they don't care about the woman. A man knows damned good and well whether a woman is into it and willing or not. And the general principle of when in doubt, keep it in your pants, is not a new concept.

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I'd say nearly half the women I know have been raped, maybe more. That seems pretty prevalent.

 

Not sure what political agenda you are referring to.

But who you know is not necessarily representative of the population in general.

 

Most of the people I am close to are Catholics. But the population of my state has less than 6% Catholics.

 

That said, I think the 20-30% estimate of all woman who are victims of a sexual crime, from an attempt of some sort to rape, is probably accurate. Just because a woman might live in an area where the numbers are lower doesn't mean the numbers overall are wrong.

 

I do think false accusations happen. When proven, I think the person who committed the false allegation should serve mandatory prison time. Both bc it ruins an innocent man's life and bc it does harm to the belief of valid accusations.

 

Which has nothing to do with how to prevent genuine rape and how to give just sentencing for it.

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Yeah, no one was ever raped in the (rich people only, btw) "age of chaperones." and calling a rape victim an idiot is super helpful.

----------------------------

This whole conversation is very unsettling. Every single poster knows FOR SURE that helpless children are raped....knows that bed-ridden elderly women are raped....knows that burka-clad, never even SEEN alcohol in their lives women are raped....knows that boys as well as girls are raped...

 

and yet!

 

So many people want to play the pretend game that if you do the right things you won't get raped. I increasingly feel like this is not necessarily a lack of compassion, but maybe a lack of humility.

 

All evidence points to the fact that rapists will rape.  Conversations about reasonable safety measures are asides (which we have covered thrice over from every angle in this thread already). 

 

Women are crying out for the PROTECTION of a society that full-stop, no exceptions decries rape for the evil that it is.

 

I disagree.  A pretty high % of rapes involve alcohol as a factor.  It's the big fat elephant in the room.

 

Just because some kids die in car accidents regardless of car seat use, does that mean that encouraging the use of car seats is wrong and victim-shaming?  Is it better to live with known increased risks than to possibly hurt feelings?

 

And also, is there any realistic hope that rapists will be removed from the streets in our lifetime, so our daughters can go do whatever they want and feel safe?  If so, I'd love to hear the practical proposals to make this happen.  Few things would make me happier than a rapist-free society.  Give me a workable plan, and I'm all in.  In the mean time, I have to do what I feel is best for my kids.

 

I actually think there should be a public campaign driving home the link between alcohol and unwanted sexual contact.  Like they used to have those ones about "your brain on drugs" and stuff.  I don't think our society does a good enough job of telling girls (and boys!) the facts so they can make an informed decision.

Edited by SKL
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Not hard at all. If he didn't get to finish what he planned, attempted rape is the correct charge. Had it not been for the men on the bicycles, he may well have raped her.

 

It's the same for murder. People are charged with murder only if the victim is dead. An unsuccessful murder is charged as 'attempted murder.'

 

I thought he was tried and convicted for attempted rape.

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Hardly the elephant in the room. It seems to be many people's main focus.

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I actually think there should be a public campaign driving home the link between alcohol and unwanted sexual contact.  Like they used to have those ones about "your brain on drugs" and stuff.  I don't think our society does a good enough job of telling girls the facts so they can make an informed decision.

I agree with the need for a public campaign.  I don't think it should focus on the girls.

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Yes, but when is that an issue? Women are not sending their boyfriends to jail for fun, because they were drunk when they had sex. Me and my husband having sex drunk might technically meet the definition, maybe, but I'd have to press charges and go to trial for that to matter. Is there evidence that women are doing this, pressing charges against their lovers just because that is the definition? I don't think there is. 

 

There have been documented cases on college campuses of women having sex with an acquaintance and then later, when she told someone, she was encouraged to file a rape accusation, and the person she had sex with was expelled etc., despite evidence that there was apparent consent (e.g., she willingly went to his room on her own volition, texted her friend that she was going to do xyz, etc.)  There is documentation that some universities have adopted policies of finding men guilty of rape based on later regret of the woman.  (I guess the theory is that if she regretted it in sober hindsight, she must not have wanted it in the heat of the moment, and he should have known that.)  There has been a thread or two on WTM covering that topic before.  There is concern that this is the trend.  Maybe after it got some negative attention in the news, it stopped gaining momentum.

 

I think it's wise to encourage both boys and girls to be careful, and in a way maybe this trend will discourage casual sex, which would be a good thing IMO; but I don't think it's right to criminalize casual sex, especially not just for one gender.  In some countries it's women who are prosecuted for casual sex, which we all agree is horrible, so I'm not sure why some people are OK with it when the genders are reversed.  I just don't think some policymakers have thought this through well enough, and it can have serious repercussions.

 

I understand nobody here is advocating the regretted casual sex = rape position, but it does exist out there.

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I agree with the need for a public campaign.  I don't think it should focus on the girls.

 

I should have said boys and girls - alcohol makes everyone stupid and creates risks on both sides.

 

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What trend? What are you talking about? The statistics do not support you SKL. Unless you are privy to some secret underground movement - which would have an awful long way to go to come close to the current, pervasive rapist movement - then you are perpetuating incorrect and damaging myths.

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