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Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...

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I did not say rapes just happen. It's not like rainy days. People are raped because someone decides they want to rape and takes an opportunity to do that.

 

Not a single poster has said rape is or should be socially acceptable. Every poster has said we should have stricter laws and sentences for proven convictions. It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

 

I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

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Well yes. I could go work for a car manufacturer and design a safer car. You could, too. You would have to learn some things first.

No I don't think I could. so where does that end? There is always a project or a cause that someone thinks is the answer. I have chosen to focus on what is realistically within my control.....my own actions, and raising my children and being the best wife and mother and friend I can be. Part of which includes being as safe as I can be to avoid bad situations and people.

 

I don't know why that is so offensive.

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This is very presumptive of you. It presumes that all victims must feel and react and want the same thing to feel they are getting justice and that simply is not true.

 

For all you or I know Scarlet could be a person who would instead seek some other way to cope or find healing that doesn't focus on drunks but instead focuses her grief elsewhere.

 

I wasn't implying that Scarlet would follow one and only one particular course of action, but she has always struck me as a strong woman and I visualize her as someone would find a way to make a positive difference in the outcome - however she does it.

 

Does that make sense? 

 

When I hear someone say that they could never homeschool, I believe some of them, but then I also know that ten years ago, I was one of them.  If something is important to us, many of us do seek to make changes.

 

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I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

Rape is very difficult to prove under the judicial system we live under. I think that is why safety measures are discussed so quickly. Because we DO know it can happen to us. We DO know it would be difficult to prove and we could be drug through the mud.

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I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

Marital rape wasn't a crime in all 50 states until 1993, and many of the laws are still ridiculous.

 

Crime labs are woefully underfunded. Rape test kits often go unprocessed or have years-long backlogs. Some politicians have suggested making victims pay for the processing.

 

Slut shaming and victim blaming are really only part of the warped view of rape in our society.

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I wasn't implying that Scarlet would follow one and only one particular course of action, but she has always struck me as a strong woman and I visualize her as someone would find a way to make a positive difference in the outcome - however she does it.

 

Does that make sense?

 

When I hear someone say that they could never homeschool, I believe some of them, but then I also know that ten years ago, I was one of them. If something is important to us, many of us do seek to make changes.

 

I probably wasn't clear that I am politically neutral. So yes I might feel compelled to DO something but it would not be to get involved in politics.

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This is what it comes down to, really. If rapes just happen, then it a woman's responsibility to avoid them.

Except rapes don't just happen. It's not "anyone who can does". A whole lot of countries have a whole lot more rape than in US. Obviously we are doing something they aren't to prevent that. There are armies that routinely use rape as a weapon of war; the US is most definitely not one of those countries.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, the armed forces have a dismal record of rape/sexual assault and harassment of female military. It's a disgrace.
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It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

 

Yes. This. Maybe the discussion of how to reduce opportunity would have been better as a separate thread. But it is frustrating to see people talking past each other.

 

As a parent of sons, I'm trying to prep my soon-to-be college freshman for what he will encounter in college culture. One of the things we've discussed is the overabundance of alcohol in campus settings and the variety of risky situations it creates for both men and women. We've talked about the need for him to stay sober for safety reasons. We've also talked about the need for him to be the "good guy"... to watch out for classmates who drink too much... and to take action to help and protect female classmates who may be vulnerable due to inebriation.

 

That's part of reducing the chance for someone to be assaulted and it needs to be discussed.

 

If my soon-to-be-freshman were a girl, she'd get the same "stay sober" advice. Because we live in the real world, failing to have either discussion would be negligent on my part. Will my kids still make mistakes? Yep. I only pray they won't be serious ones. Do they "deserve" to be victimized because of those mistakes? Absolutely not. Does teaching them to do everything "right" guarantee their safety? No, of course not. But I'm still going to try.

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No I don't think I could. so where does that end? There is always a project or a cause that someone thinks is the answer. I have chosen to focus on what is realistically within my control.....my own actions, and raising my children and being the best wife and mother and friend I can be. Part of which includes being as safe as I can be to avoid bad situations and people.

 

I don't know why that is so offensive.

 

Maybe when there is a thread on a particular rape case, it's time to throw up a spin off that lists all of the things you can do to be as safe as you can be in case anyone doesn't know them, maybe like a PSA. 

 

I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that doesn't know all the safety precautions and practice a significant proportion of them.  I also doubt that there is a single poster on this thread who hasn't told their children those precautions at an age appropriate time. 

 

No one has said that you can't do the same for your children.

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

The other posters on the thread aren't children who need instruction on how to avoid being raped.  It's been drilled into us all from an early age.

 

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Rape is very difficult to prove under the judicial system we live under. I think that is why safety measures are discussed so quickly. Because we DO know it can happen to us. We DO know it would be difficult to prove and we could be drug through the mud.

 

Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that it is worth trying to change the current system.

 

I have to believe we can change it. I recently found out that a young woman very dear to me was assaulted and that the bastard will walk because she is unwilling and unable to navigate the system.  That is wrong on so many levels.

 

How many rapes are acceptable before we get off our hands?

 

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Please read this study about rape from the UN.

 

(sorry if it's already been posted, long thread)

 

Obviously most of us don't live in these countries, but some posters are saying hey rape is a human trait, and I don't necessarily disagree, so that should not be pertinent.

 

According TO 70+% of RAPISTS, they themselves said they raped because of a sense of entitlement to women's bodies. <<<<------- so no need to wonder about rape culture any more. Straight from the donkey's mouth.

 

Rape perpetration committed by men is quite frequent in the general population in the countries studied, as it is in other countries where similar research has been undertaken, such as South Africa. Prevention of rape is essential, and interventions must focus on childhood and adolescence, and address culturally rooted male gender socialisation and power relations, abuse in childhood, and poverty.

 

 

Edited by OKBud
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Maybe when there is a thread on a particular rape case, it's time to throw up a spin off that lists all of the things you can do to be as safe as you can be in case anyone doesn't know them, maybe like a PSA.

 

I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that doesn't know all the safety precautions and practice a significant proportion of them. I also doubt that there is a single poster on this thread who hasn't told their children those precautions at an age appropriate time.

 

No one has said that you can't do the same for your children.

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

The other posters on the thread aren't children who need instruction on how to avoid being raped. It's been drilled into us all from an early age.

 

My first post on this thread was 442.

I don't think a woman's actions as a rape victim are more important than a rapist. I do however belive that is the variable that she can control. It isn't perfect of course.....but she can control herself....not a rapist.

 

If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

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This is what it comes down to, really.   If rapes just happen, then it a woman's responsibility to avoid them.

Except rapes don't just happen.  It's not "anyone who can does".  A whole lot of countries have a whole lot more rape than in US.  Obviously we are doing something they aren't to prevent that.   There are armies that routinely use rape as a weapon of war; the US is most definitely  not one of those countries.  No, we can't stop all crime, but it's not something completely out of our control either.

 

There are many recent stories of US [and other Western] military members doing such things - the US literally has people around the world protesting to get stations out of their countries with a major reason being sexual assaults rates and those rapists going un/under punished  - and there are many recent reports of high ranking military officers telling women in the US's military services that being raped by their colleagues is simply a 'work hazard' that they have to accept even when most statistics give strong evidence that it far more likely that a woman in military service is more likely to be raped by her colleagues [most recent figures have it around 20%]  than to be killed by enemy fire. Just because it isn't official like with ISIS doesn't mean it isn't happening and being supported by a system and culture that views rape as an acceptable use of power.

 

Until it is out of our cultures, it will be in our military and pointing how it is worse with others doesn't help especially when looking at the most vulnerable who face very high chances of being raped [1 in 3 for American Indigenous women, for disabled people in the US and UK it is well over half] and do not differ as much from other places where we might look in concern. 

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I have a question: Is there a culture anywhere on earth where rape is extremely rare and not remotely tolerated?

 

Of course.

 

 

 

Posting that partisan site because I can't see the study they reference and don't know if others also can not.

 

She looked at 95 band and tribal cultures and found that 47% were rape-free; 33% had rape present but with frequency unknown but not atypical; and 17% were “rape-prone.† A summary of Sanday’s findings can be found here. The differences between the rape-prone cultures and those in which rape did not occur were clear and statistically significant.

 

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Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that it is worth trying to change the current system.

 

I have to believe we can change it. I recently found out that a young woman very dear to me was assaulted and that the bastard will walk because she is unwilling and unable to navigate the system. That is wrong on so many levels.

 

How many rapes are acceptable before we get off our hands?

 

Isn't it sad how some will give it their all to supposedly keep females safe from transgendered males assaulting them in restrooms but we still have a tough time believing women when they actually are raped? Edited by Dotwithaperiod
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Isn't it sad how some will give it their all to supposedly keep females safe from transgendered males assaulting them in restrooms but we still have a tough time believing women when they actually are raped?

I don't know anyone like that at all. No one I know is worried about transgendered assaulting women In restrooms.....and no one I know disbelieved a rape victim. Believing a rape victim and proving her rapist guilty under the law are two very different things.

Edited by Scarlett
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Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that it is worth trying to change the current system.

 

I have to believe we can change it. I recently found out that a young woman very dear to me was assaulted and that the bastard will walk because she is unwilling and unable to navigate the system. That is wrong on so many levels.

 

How many rapes are acceptable before we get off our hands?

 

We'd have to believe that they 'count' as rape first. Then we'd have to believe that the perpetrator wasn't just confused/tricked/carried away...

 

I need more than a hand to count the number of sexual assault attackers, that I personally know about, who walked free.

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My mom was raped at age 13. That would have been 1958. She told no one until she was 21. She beat into my head that I must always tell if I am ever harmed.....because her rapist told her he would tell everyone she wanted him to do it. She had good parents. They would have believed her. She was a prepubescent girl who had been babysitting this mans children and he gave her a ride home....he stopped on a country isolated road and raped her and her shoe fell out of the truck and he had to,go,back and find it. Sick. I mean what the heck.

 

So I was always super careful with my kid.....and I never had my husband drive the sitter anywhere.....that is how my family dealt with the aftermath of rape. Protect ourselves and our children. Still and yet when I was 37 years old and almost raped in my own bed...stopped by my Xh.....he did not react properly. It was a nightmare. If my brother had not been there my own sanity might have failed me and made me believe I did cause it or ask for it.

 

What he still says to this day is that if I had really almost been raped I would have called the police. Ha. He also threatened to 'tell' everyone what I had done. For years I was controlled by this crap. As a grown adult, with ALOT of experience in life and this kind of stuff. So I KNOW this happens. I am not operating without knowledge or experience.

 

However when a divorce was happening....and he continued to think he would control me with my big secret....I just started telling everyone. The support I received was OVERWHELMING.. The ANGER was toward the almost rapist and my Xh...not me. So that is how I operate. I have no judgement toward women almost raped or raped. I have compassion., I have righteous indignation. And I also have practical suggestions for the future.

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We'd have to believe that they 'count' as rape first. Then we'd have to believe that the perpetrator wasn't just confused/tricked/carried away...

 

I need more than a hand to count the number of sexual assault attackers, that I personally know about, who walked free.

Yes. Because "feeling/believing it is true" or an accusation alone is not usually considered evidence of any crime, rape or otherwise. At best, it starts an investigation that *might* dredge up evidence that can be used in court. Many or most walk free not bc of lack of belief - but because providing legal evidence proving sex wasn't wanted is difficult even if they can prove the sex acts happened, which is also often difficult to prove. Because the not wanting is the only aspect that makes the sex a crime.

 

This is the hazard of a system that presumes innocent until proven guilty.

 

It is frustrating I completely agree, but I'm not sure how we can fix that without tossing due process out the window and I'm unwilling to do that.

 

I would be willing to have mandatory minimum sentencing for sex crimes and for all sex crimes to be treated as violent offender crimes.

 

For example, while everyone is pissy about mentioning she drank, I'm pissy about everyone mentioning how she was behind a dumpster. As though it matters at all where the raped happened? Would it have somehow been a nicer rape (talk about oxymoron) if he had done it in his dorm or car? The ACT itself shows no regard for her person, it's not like rapists who are being considerate by doing it somewhere else. All they care about is opportunity to do what they want to do.

 

I whole heartedly agree there are not enough state crime labs or state coroners. The pay and the job suck, so most aren't eager for it, but better pay and more facilities would be a fine start. It's another area where working for the govt is not the cushy job many people seem to always think it is.

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My first post on this thread was 442.

I don't think a woman's actions as a rape victim are more important than a rapist. I do however belive that is the variable that she can control. It isn't perfect of course.....but she can control herself....not a rapist.

 

If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

 

A significant number of rapes occur in settings where the victim trusts the rapist.  She may have known him for a while. He may be a friend.

 

Have you never had a glass of wine with a male friend?

 

Have you never been drunk with a male that you trust?

 

Maybe you haven't.

 

So no drinking with a male ever? Because you have  to control yourself to be safe.

 

When I was in college, I worked a graveyard shift and had to walk two blocks from where I parked to my apartment over a grocery store at 2 am.  By the standards here, I was an idiot.  I did what I did because I had to.  It's not the same as drinking to excess, but I sure as heck wasn't following the safety protocol.

 

Stop rapists?  Well, maybe we could begin by not elevating athletes to god status and giving them free passes for bad behavior.  Maybe we can boycott the hell out of companies that make ads that promote getting your good friend drunk so you can get some action.  Maybe country singer Luke Bryan shouldn't make all his songs about getting drunk and getting laid. 

 

Maybe we should continue to teach our daughters that sleeping with a guy is not the way to get him to love you.  That's still a fairly prevalent attitude in spite of the hook-up culture.

 

I am willing to bet you there are a whole lot of guys who think if they take a girl to the prom, their entitled to "some."  Can we work on that?

 

I don't know, Scarlett, but I am willing to try and do more than be safe.  I have both a daughter and two sons.  I'd like it to go well for all of them.

 

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I've been thinking a lot about guy attitudes and guy friendship codes ever since I read that case about the football player who called in his buddies to assault his girlfriend. You know, the one where they dumped her partially clothed (or naked, can't remember) body in the hallway and other guys in the dorm walked on past her.  The guy code is strong and it is part of the issue.

 

 

Okay, I'm just going to post this - this is the thing that guy wrote on FB,.  I think it does a great job explaining why "he was drunk" is never an excuse, and also some ideas how to not raise boys who will not follow that path:

 

Matt Lang

I've been drunk many times, even in the presence of promiscuous women who were also drunk, and I managed not to rape them, so I don't think drinking and promiscuity are the problems.

This here is the problem: some guys are entitled pricks, and they're entitled pricks because their fathers and coaches and friends taught them to be entitled pricks. Because they are entitled pricks, they think they can have whatever they want, and that their worth is defined by what they have and what they take.

Alcohol has this capacity to unlock what, deep down, we've always wanted to do. For me, that means, occasionally, running naked in places I probably shouldn't, like through libraries or deserts (remember for next time: deserts=cactuses). But even at my most intoxicated, I've never lost sight of the fact that rape is wrong, because I was raised to know it's wrong. No amount of alcohol can depress that value.

Brock Turner and his ilk were never taught that. They were taught that they can have what they want, when they want, including women. And that's called being a man. Brock Turner thought he was entitled to a little "action" any way he could get it, and he thought that long before he got drunk. The alcohol didn't introduce that thought, it unlocked it. That thought: "I can take whatever I want, including her", was planted and watered by a whole, rotten village.

It is right that we shame him, and his father, and the friend that came to his defense, and the judge, and every other entitled prick we meet.

Just as importantly, we need to love our boys, and teach them the dignity of the body, and how to live through disappointment and confusion, and how to navigate confusing feelings, and how to separate feelings from action, and how to communicate and listen. We need to redefine for them what it is to be a man, that their worth doesn't come from that which they have and take.

 

 

And while I'm at it, this is another post talking about the two guys who did not follow the 'guy code' but stopped this jerk instead:

 

Liz de Belcaire

Like everyone else, I've been bombarded by the story of the Stanford Rapist and Judge RichWhitePeopleGetOffEasy and Big Daddy RapeApologist.

I'd like to offer a few words about two of the men in this story. But not the two men who are getting all the airtime.

I want to say something about the two nameless Swedish guys who interrupted the rape. Now THERE are two guys I'd like to meet. And I'd like to know their parents too.

Because these two young men, upon seeing a motionless mostly naked woman being thrust upon by a guy behind a dumpster, did NOT shrug and keep on biking, willing to let it go as "not their business" or "oh she must have consented 'cause she went to a party."

They apparently didn't feel kinship with the blonde, pale-skinned guy. They didn't worry about their own safety in that moment. (Granted, there were two of them and one rapist.)

Instead of ignoring the situation, they broke it up. And when the rapist ran away, they ran him down, held him, and called the cops.

For all my friends who are parents of sons out there--this story doesn't just have villains. It has heroes. Examples you can hold up to show them who they could grow up to become. Brave, compassionate, willing to put themselves out to help a total stranger. Understanding enough to realize that a motionless woman on the ground behind a dumpster probably didn't "want it" and in fact needed help.

Good men do exist. They even existed in this story. In the midst of sorrow and rage and heartache, I have hope.

ED: I've made this post public--share away.

 

Edited by Matryoshka
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I don't know anyone like that at all. No one I know is worried about transgendered assaulting women In restrooms.....and no one I know disbelieved a rape victim. Believing a rape victim and proving her rapist guilty under the law are two very different things.

 

Michelle Duggar, who has a very high profile among conservative Christians.

 

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A significant number of rapes occur in settings where the victim trusts the rapist. She may have known him for a while. He may be a friend.

 

Have you never had a glass of wine with a male friend?

 

Have you never been drunk with a male that you trust?

 

Maybe you haven't.

 

So no drinking with a male ever? Because you have to control yourself to be safe.

 

When I was in college, I worked a graveyard shift and had to walk two blocks from where I parked to my apartment over a grocery store at 2 am. By the standards here, I was an idiot. I did what I did because I had to. It's not the same as drinking to excess, but I sure as heck wasn't following the safety protocol.

 

Stop rapists? Well, maybe we could begin by not elevating athletes to god status and giving them free passes for bad behavior. Maybe we can boycott the hell out of companies that make ads that promote getting your good friend drunk so you can get some action. Maybe country singer Luke Bryan shouldn't make all his songs about getting drunk and getting laid.

 

Maybe we should continue to teach our daughters that sleeping with a guy is not the way to get him to love you. That's still a fairly prevalent attitude in spite of the hook-up culture.

 

I am willing to bet you there are a whole lot of guys who think if they take a girl to the prom, their entitled to "some." Can we work on that?

 

I don't know, Scarlett, but I am willing to try and do more than be safe. I have both a daughter and two sons. I'd like it to go well for all of them.

 

Oh well yes I have had a glass of wine with a male friend. In my home with my husband there and my 2 year old sleeping in his crib. In fact I probably had several glasses of wine. No one was crazy or out of control. I went to bed around midnight..,..I know shocking for a mom of a 2 year old.......and my then husband and his friend and the friends 21 yo son that I had known since he was 4...and my brother and his wife....they all were on the patio still drinking and talking. The 21 yo came in to ' go to the bathroom', it was my brother who noticed he had been gone a while and sent my Xh in to check on him. He found him naked in bed with me.

 

So yeah, I know. I don't know what to do to stop such crap except to be on constant watch. My Xh did not handle it right at all. And I don't judge myself based upon his version of that night.

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Michelle Duggar, who has a very high profile among conservative Christians.

 

I don't know her. And apparently our beliefs are quite different.

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If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

 

 

There is some hope on that front, actually:  http://www.upworthy.com/kenyas-unique-approach-to-rape-prevention-should-have-the-rest-of-the-world-taking-note?c=ufb3

 

And here's the abstract for the study:  http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/06/03/0886260515586367.abstract

 

Perhaps there are other programs like this out there.  I sincerely hope so.  This is the only one I've personally heard of.

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It is not taboo. Sometimes on this board, there is a lot of backlash because the discussion around particular rape cases always dissolves into the "if she hadn't drank that, wore that, went there, it wouldn't have happened." Every blinking discussion. It's usually the same group of posters and they are usually conservative.

Without Carly Simoning this post, it would be helpful if when this happens, people would quote the post directly and respond to it as it's written instead of making these types of general assertions. I saw nothing but acknowledgement on this thread that the rapist was the one resposible for the rape and it was not the victim's fault in any way. In fact, that is one of the few things agreed upon by everyone that I could see.

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Michelle Duggar, who has a very high profile among conservative Christians.

 

Michelle Duggar has been leading attacks on gays and transgender people but believes her own son is entitled to "mistakes". Evidently Michelle Duggar believes that sin is only for gays and transgender people. Real conservative Christians know Michelle Duggar doesn't deserve the time of day. She is a fraud and a kook. She is high profile because she isn't ashamed to show off for the media, not because she speaks for good people. She doesn't.

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Conservative or not has nothing to do with anything about rape.

 

Last I knew, rape is not a political party affiliated problem.

 

So let's not bring politics into it.

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Without Carly Simoning this post, it would be helpful if when this happens, people would quote the post directly and respond to it as it's written instead of making these types of general assertions. I saw nothing but acknowledgement on this thread that the rapist was the one resposible for the rape and it was not the victim's fault in any way. In fact, that is one of the few things agreed upon by everyone that I could see.

 

Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.  

etc.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.

etc.

Yes. And the idiot comment, too.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.  

etc.

 

Maybe because the title of the thread is generalizing based on THIS case, but incorrectly....

 

So yes, if they are both drunk, and esp. both more or less equally drunk, it is an important discussion.  If the only reason you can't legally consent to sex in a particular case is because you are x amount drunk and both the man and the woman are x amount drunk, I don't know how you would know who to charge with rape.

 

In THIS case, that is not the case, so it is not what people are talking about when they say, "well, they were both drunk."

 

I would doubt that many people think someone who is literally unconscious when raped by another person is the same as two people who are drunk having sex, then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.

etc.

I am pretty sure I didn't say I wasn't talking about this case. I did say I wouldn't immediately tell a rape victim what she might have done differently.

 

Not getting drunk near people they don't know?

Don't be vulnerable? I assume with strangers...

Be careful if you go to certain types of parties

 

Are these unreasonable precautions in the world we live in?

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I also wanted to add that it's really helpful not to assume people's backgrounds based on what they post in a thread like this. The person you are lecturing about how they should speak to or about rape/assault victims or cases or circumstances could be a victim themselves or have things in their past you know nothing about. This is a very, very, VERY public forum* and not everyone talks openly about their private lives. So you (general) may well be lecturing a victim to tell them how victims feel or what they do or what they perceive or what they hear or what is best for them. Which would be...condescending at best. Just a thought.

 

*even before I joined or read here I remember finding out about this forum before I even researched homeschooling, because I googled something way unrelated to homeschooling and got search results to this place.

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Maybe because the title of the thread is generalizing based on THIS case, but incorrectly....

 

So yes, if they are both drunk, and esp. both more or less equally drunk, it is an important discussion.  If the only reason you can't legally consent to sex in a particular case is because you are x amount drunk and both the man and the woman are x amount drunk, I don't know how you would know who to charge with rape.

 

In THIS case, that is not the case, so it is not what people are talking about when they say, "well, they were both drunk."

 

I would doubt that many people think someone who is literally unconscious when raped by another person is the same as two people who are drunk having sex, then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent.

 

Two guys riding bikes  just happened to catch Brock Turner in the act of assaulting a woman.   If they hadn't caught him, he could have very easily  claimed it was a case of "two people who are drunk having sex, then one then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent." How could she possibly prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy, with no criminal record and great athletic and academic record, was  a rapist?  It would be like most rape cases: never brought to prosecution.

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Two guys riding bikes just happened to catch Brock Turner in the act of assaulting a woman. If they hadn't caught him, he could have very easily claimed it was a case of "two people who are drunk having sex, then one then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent." How could she possibly prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy, with no criminal record and great athletic and academic record, was a rapist? It would be like most rape cases: never brought to prosecution.

So what is your point here? It sounds like my point which is that rape is a crime very difficult to prove. And a situation that would be BESt to avoid if at all possible.

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So what is your point here? It sounds like my point which is that rape is a crime very difficult to prove. And a situation that would be BESt to avoid if at all possible.

 

Wow, OK.  

 

Well, I'll agree with you, it's better to not get raped.   Or beaten, robbed or murdered either.  

 

My point. I was replying to someone who said, this case is very different than cases where the guy says "it's not rape, we were just both drunk".    It's not really different at all. That's exactly what Brock Turner says happened. And he would likely be believed, if he hadn't been stopped, then tackled by a random passer-by.   Reading this thread one might believe there is some huge rush of women running to make fake claims of rape.   Looking at the statistics, plus reading the letter writer's rather horrifying description of the rape kit procedure, contradicts that idea.

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Okay, I can understand that. (And just for the record, I am not anti-drinking. I don't think drunkenness is wise.)

 

 

I think it would be inappropriate to focus on it in front of the victim or berate her for it. It shouldn't affect the sentencing of the rapist. It doesn't lessen the rapist's responsibility.

 

I don't agree that a discussion of locked vs. unlocked windows should be totally off the table, though. Locked windows do, in fact, help keep us safe.

What is gained by keeping such talk on the table? What grace and love does it show the survivor?

 

In your view, I must assume I would be responsible to some degree for my rapes (yes plural, same perp) because I walked in to go to the bathroom despite knowing he was a creep and also because I was too afraid to speak up and stop it from happening again.

 

Sorry Mercy, that's just.not.ok. It is neither loving, kind or merciful.

 

If the perp breaks a window should we shame the victim for not living in a concrete panic room? No? Why not? How is that any different really than considering if the window was locked or not?

 

I have lived the victim shaming full stop even though I fall into a category of victim that is generally least blamed (children). Anyone who doesn't repudiate this cultural norm (what did she do?) is perpetuating a deeply hurtful cultural environment that almost continuously makes life harder for survivors.

 

ETA- I had a dicey experience when I was backpacking with a female friend when we were both older teens. I can't tell you the number of times I heard "why would you ever hike alone (obviously without a man, we two women were "alone", I guess). Anyways. I hike alone for the same reason I sleep with my window open on hot nights. Because it makes me happy and more comfortable. Because I want to. Because I refuse to live my life in fear despite knowing all too well the conceivable risks. Because I like fresh air.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Wow, OK.

 

Well, I'll agree with you, it's better to not get raped. Or beaten, robbed or murdered either.

 

My point. I was replying to someone who said, this case is very different than cases where the guy says "it's not rape, we were just both drunk". It's not really different at all. That's exactly what Brock Turner says happened. And he would likely be believed, if he hadn't been stopped, then tackled by a random passer-by. Reading this thread one might believe there is some huge rush of women running to make fake claims of rape. Looking at the statistics, plus reading the letter writer's rather horrifying description of the rape kit procedure, contradicts that idea.

It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

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I also wanted to add that it's really helpful not to assume people's backgrounds based on what they post in a thread like this. The person you are lecturing about how they should speak to or about rape/assault victims or cases or circumstances could be a victim themselves or have things in their past you know nothing about. This is a very, very, VERY public forum* and not everyone talks openly about their private lives. So you (general) may well be lecturing a victim to tell them how victims feel or what they do or what they perceive or what they hear or what is best for them. Which would be...condescending at best. Just a thought.

 

*even before I joined or read here I remember finding out about this forum before I even researched homeschooling, because I googled something way unrelated to homeschooling and got search results to this place.

Wow. Really.

 

I would think that people might be more worried about the actual victims in this very thread who have told you in their own words that it is offensive and incorrect to harp on about the imperfect actions of victims...

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So what do we do then, Murphy?

 

At least we could give the ones we can prove decent sentences for a start!

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Why are we not talking about our sons?

Why are we so focused on teaching young women to be safe while fully ignoring the social and cultural systems that we are raising our boys in.

 

It starts when we send little girls home to change so they don't distract the boys.

 

It continues with rape being a common plot point for character building in books, TV, and movies.

It starts when we tell girls that the boy hit her because he likes her.

 

It continues when we repeatedly frame the worth of women as Daughters, Mothers, and Wives rather than valuing them as a full human independent of their family role.

This was recently seen with the death of Michelle McNamara, she was a highly talented author, but every headline framed her as the wife of Patton Oswald.

 

It continues when we call the rape of underage children innapropriate relationships. Or prosecute underage victims as prostitues rather than rape victims.

 

Or that we use images of women as objects, often disembodied, to sell products or services.

 

PETA is notoriously bad about this.

This article has good discussion about the need to reframe the narrative

 

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/03/2564011/opinion-pieces-rape-apologists/

Edited by jeninok
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It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

The problem is that the police sometimes don't bother collecting evidence, or testing the evidence that has been collected. If the victim doesn't act the "right" way or have the "right" kind of story, her allegations don't get taken seriously by the people who swore to protect and serve her, so a proper investigation never happens. I think what poppy was saying was that if it weren't for the two eyewitnesses, the police might have brushed her off, never bothered to find out if there was real evidence. This story is long, but it is well worth reading: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

 

The backlog of untested rape kits (hundreds of thousands of them!) is such a serious issue that it has finally gotten national attention. http://www.endthebacklog.org

 

Lack of existing evidence is no doubt a problem in some cases. But lack of collecting and processing available evidence is a huge problem.

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It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

No. I'm merely saying that handwringing about the possibility of false rape reports is misplaced. It does matter . If that conversation about rape is focused on the victims behavior, if the presence of alcohol makes the situation automatically ambiguous, if we talk as much about false reports (which are very rare) more than rapes left unreported or not prosecuted (very common).... all that adds up to normalizing rape as a standard part of social life. Instead of a crime which should be talked about with disgust for the perpetrators. It's funny , in another thread, someone posted about smoking and there is a united consensus on that thread: smoking is unacceptable, it's terrible, we despise it. Smoking is not ok. It's taboo. We're as rape is.... well there are a whole lot of debate points. Imagine if smoking was the same way. "There are always going to be smokers, so I tell my kids to avoid doorways. "

Edited by poppy
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Wow, Brock is surrounded by people who think he's a very special snowflake. These references are appalling. I feel sorry for Brock that he is surrounded by people who wish to collude in the delusion that he hasn't done anything wrong. It isn't good for his chances of rehabilitation. He will remain stunted in character so long as he surrounds himself with these voices. 

 

Basically, alcohol made him do it, and PC culture has gone mad/the assault survivor is a liar. 

 

One friend argues for probation because 'his social capital is in shambles'. 

 

And another friend says: where do we draw the line and stop worrying about being politically correct every second of the day and see that rape on campuses isn’t always because people are rapists.

 

Un-freaking-believable. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by StellaM
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