If you know both French and Latin passably well...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I am trying to get a feel for the level of Latin on two exams that my kids will have the option of taking.  You can think of the tests as being similar to SAT subject tests.  The instructions for the exam are in French.  What I want to know is what level, approximately, the Latin corresponds to if I were to decide to teach them Latin at some point.  What English-language curriculum would they need to complete to be able to do the exams?  TBH, the first exam at least looks quite easy.  The second one a bit less so.  Here they are:

 

8th Grade Exam and solutions

9th Grade Exam and solutions

 

On both exams, the student can use a Latin-French dictionary and an etymological glossary of some kind, it looks like it's something provided during the exam.  

[8filltheheart]

Dd looked through only the first one. She said the test does not reflect the progression in which she learned Latin. She said parts of it were incredibly low level (the reading, for example, she said was very easy). However, a student reading at that level would not have learned the ablative absolute or passive tense for the questions further down. She said it was hard for her to make any sort of comparison.

 

Fwiw, my kids say the Latin subject test is the hardest subject test they have taken.

 

There are National Latin Exam sample tests online for every level (way easier than the subject test) and CB has sample questions for the subject test. You could try to compare to those. FWIW, Dd took the subject test after 3 yrs of high school grammar.

Edited June 3, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thanks!  I will have to try to find out what the local kids use for Latin... I may have to teach Latin in French after all.  Blah...  Of course, maybe it's easier to learn Latin from French than Latin from English...  

[8filltheheart]

Monica, I meant to add that she spent her first 2 yrs of Latin with Galore Park books, so they were British books. She switched to Wheelocks and covered the entire book for yr 3.

[Kathy in Richmond]

I looked over the two exams (fun!) I'm good at Latin and rusty at French, but I could follow along well enough.

 

The reading portions at the beginning of each exam were quite easy, especially given that most of the vocabulary was glossed below the passages. I'd guess Intro Latin level reading for the gr8 exam & Latin 1 level for the gr9 exam. I'm comparing here to NLE levels.

 

I saw only indicative mood for verbs, no subjunctive mood. Subjunctive is introduced & taught extensively in Latin 2 in most curricula. The gr9 exam tested on all the indicative active verb tenses. Passive voice was used, but I only saw it in the present tense. Gr9 tested on some common pronouns (relative pronouns, ille, hic). Those would all be covered in a good Latin 1 course.

 

Both tests had questions on recognizing and translating ablative absolute phrases and indirect statements. Those topics could be introduced at the end of Latin 1 or the beginning of Latin 2, though more commonly in level 2 these days.  If you were using one of the typical curricula here (Wheelocks, Henle, etc), you'd need to complete the Latin 1 portion and add in those two additional topics, which might involve some skipping ahead. For example, Wheelocks covers them in Chapters 24 & 25 (out of 40 chapters, which gets you through Latin 2)

 

Both of these tests are well below the Latin SAT Subject test in difficulty. As 8Fill said, that's one difficult test. Most kids complete at least 3 years of Latin before attempting it, though many wait till year 4 or AP level.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Monica, I meant to add that she spent her first 2 yrs of Latin with Galore Park books, so they were British books. She switched to Wheelocks and covered the entire book for yr 3.

 

 

I looked over the two exams (fun!) I'm good at Latin and rusty at French, but I could follow along well enough.

 

The reading portions at the beginning of each exam were quite easy, especially given that most of the vocabulary was glossed below the passages. I'd guess Intro Latin level reading for the gr8 exam & Latin 1 level for the gr9 exam. I'm comparing here to NLE levels.

 

I saw only indicative mood for verbs, no subjunctive mood. Subjunctive is introduced & taught extensively in Latin 2 in most curricula. The gr9 exam tested on all the indicative active verb tenses. Passive voice was used, but I only saw it in the present tense. Gr9 tested on some common pronouns (relative pronouns, ille, hic). Those would all be covered in a good Latin 1 course.

 

Both tests had questions on recognizing and translating ablative absolute phrases and indirect statements. Those topics could be introduced at the end of Latin 1 or the beginning of Latin 2, though more commonly in level 2 these days.  If you were using one of the typical curricula here (Wheelocks, Henle, etc), you'd need to complete the Latin 1 portion and add in those two additional topics, which might involve some skipping ahead. For example, Wheelocks covers them in Chapters 24 & 25 (out of 40 chapters, which gets you through Latin 2)

 

Both of these tests are well below the Latin SAT Subject test in difficulty. As 8Fill said, that's one difficult test. Most kids complete at least 3 years of Latin before attempting it, though many wait till year 4 or AP level.

 

 

Thank you so much for the replies.  And thank you Kathy, for an approximate topics list.  I am wondering if maybe the initial passage is so easy because the student is expected to both read AND translate it within an hour (IIRC)?  

 

I am currently looking at GSWL followed by the Linney's Latin Course by the same author that goes through "The First Year of Latin," a vintage text.   He estimates the text as covering years 1-2 of a typical high school Latin.   Then again, it may be better to move into a better known text like Wheelocks or Henle.   Then again again, if dc do Latin, it will have to be a self-taught course.  So I'll have to see what's available.  

 

Thanks for all the help!  Working on my long-term planning!  

[Kathy in Richmond]

Thank you so much for the replies.  And thank you Kathy, for an approximate topics list.  I am wondering if maybe the initial passage is so easy because the student is expected to both read AND translate it within an hour (IIRC)?  

 

I am currently looking at GSWL followed by the Linney's Latin Course by the same author that goes through "The First Year of Latin," a vintage text.   He estimates the text as covering years 1-2 of a typical high school Latin.   Then again, it may be better to move into a better known text like Wheelocks or Henle.   Then again again, if dc do Latin, it will have to be a self-taught course.  So I'll have to see what's available.  

 

Thanks for all the help!  Working on my long-term planning!  

 

Yes, I did notice that your exams had lots more written output than the NLE or SAT Subject tests, which are multiple choice response. That could very well account for the levels, as writing out translations takes more time. The only exam we have here that requires written responses is the AP Latin, which isn't taken till the 4th or 5th year.

 

I'm not familiar with the early levels of GSWL or with Linney, but I would guess that a vintage text covers more than the modern ones in the first year.

 

Good luck to you!

What a fascinating question!

 

In addition to what others have said, (and my French isn't as strong as my Latin...), it seem like 24 out of 40 points is "passing" on the exams?  I assume this is an entrance exam of some sort?  So, it seems like even if you haven't covered things like the ablative absolute, the student could still pass this exam, depending on how strictly is is graded.

 

I was also surprised to see a cultural section on the exam.  Typically, in the United States, we wouldn't see those on our standardized tests.

 

In the etymology section, it was fun to see the French words of Latin origin, which are also at home in English: regicide, pedicure, capitale, virile

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

What a fascinating question!

 

In addition to what others have said, (and my French isn't as strong as my Latin...), it seem like 24 out of 40 points is "passing" on the exams?  I assume this is an entrance exam of some sort?  So, it seems like even if you haven't covered things like the ablative absolute, the student could still pass this exam, depending on how strictly is is graded.

 

I was also surprised to see a cultural section on the exam.  Typically, in the United States, we wouldn't see those on our standardized tests.

 

In the etymology section, it was fun to see the French words of Latin origin, which are also at home in English: regicide, pedicure, capitale, virile

 

It is fascinating, isn't it?  

 

Yes, it is an entrance exam to pass into "gymnase".  The exam corresponds to the end of the last year of obligatory schooling, which here is the equivalent of US 9th grade.  From there, students may immediately join the workforce, train for various work certificates (secretarial, front office, etc type work), go on to trade schools of various types (skilled manual, nursing, etc) or go on to gymnase, which is a pre-university and business track.  So instead of the last three years of US high school, gymnase would fall somewhere between high school and junior college I suppose.  

 

Anyway, I'm trying to decide if we'll place the kids back in at that point, and if so, what sorts of exams they would need to pass to enter into the gymnase (pre-university track).  The students wishing to enter gymnase after attending a private school or homeschool must pass a French, math, German, and English exam, as well as at least one subject test from Latin, Italian, Physics and applied math, Chemistry and applied math, Biology, and Economics and Law.  

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

And yes, the pass level is 24 points, which means the student could completely fail the grammar and still pass in theory...

[Loesje22000]

I will ask dd as soon as she is awake :)

[Laura Corin]

Yes, I did notice that your exams had lots more written output than the NLE or SAT Subject tests, which are multiple choice response. That could very well account for the levels, as writing out translations takes more time. The only exam we have here that requires written responses is the AP Latin, which isn't taken till the 4th or 5th year.

 

 

This was a difference too when I compared SAT subject test French with IGCSE French.  The passages used for comprehension and translation in the SAT were higher level, but the IGCSE required writing, rather than just multi-choice.  Especially with language exams, active output requires a high level of attention to detail which, for example, my son Hobbes finds tricky.

 

Certainly in the UK, there isn't much of a tradition of multi-choice - it's not seen as a proper exam.  These days, high school exams might have some multi-choice in warm-up sections of the exam paper, but the higher level marks will only be attainable by active production of knowledge.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Because some of you are enjoying comparing exams, I wanted to come back in and clear up a mistake I made earlier in the description:

 

These exams are actually to ENTER that grade level, rather than an exit exam.  So, the 8th grade exam would be for a student coming form a non-public education background to enter public 8th grade, and the 9th for a student wishing to enter 9th (both in the pre-gymnase track).  Sorry I got that wrong earlier!  A student wishing to enter the general track does not need to take any exams.  Obviously entering the pre-gym track keeps more doors open to a student.  

 

And if you go to this page and look at the column on the right, you can see all the entrance exams for joining the pre-gymnase track (years 9-11 in Swiss grade system.  Subtract 2 to get the US grade equivalent).  I find the math exams to be wonderful, personally.  As in, well-designed, interesting questions that are quite challenging really.  Certain exams are required, then a subject exam of choice as I described earlier.

 

You can also test directly into the gymnase (years 12-14 Swiss grades, 10-12th US grades), but there doesn't appear to be any online samples of those exams.  

 

Here is the schematic of the Swiss school system, which I think is a model worth considering for any country, especially the US.  It valorizes paths other than the four-year-degree path, and I think this is really important for protecting the trades, skilled labor, etc, and allowing people to take pride in their education and work, even if they are not "university track".  

[Loesje22000]

I am trying to get a feel for the level of Latin on two exams that my kids will have the option of taking. You can think of the tests as being similar to SAT subject tests. The instructions for the exam are in French. What I want to know is what level, approximately, the Latin corresponds to if I were to decide to teach them Latin at some point. What English-language curriculum would they need to complete to be able to do the exams? TBH, the first exam at least looks quite easy. The second one a bit less so. Here they are:

 

8th Grade Exam and solutions

9th Grade Exam and solutions

 

On both exams, the student can use a Latin-French dictionary and an etymological glossary of some kind, it looks like it's something provided during the exam.

We use a Flemish textbook serie for Latin,

And book 4 of the serie compares with AP Latin.

 

Looking to vocab & grammar:

According to dd your 'grade 8 exam' could be done after book 1 of our serie and 'grade 9' after book 2.

Our culture topics are arranged differently so for grade 8 exam you would need book 2, and book 1 for grade 9.

 

Book 1 of our serie is written to start in grade 7,

Book 2 is written for grade 8 so it seems 'typical' and 'standard' exams.

Dd considered these examsamples pretty easy compared to the exams of our textbook serie (these tend to be hard)

AP Latin compares to our grade 10 exams, but to get a diploma (which is pretty important in Europe) dd has to pass grade 12 exit exams.

 

'Gymnasium' is pretty widely recognized in Europe.

 

HTH!

 

ETA: Tress uses / used this serie too, and is more well known with American Latin series,

So she might be able to compare MP / Henle with our textbook serie

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

We use a Flemish textbook serie for Latin,

And book 4 of the serie compares with AP Latin.

 

Looking to vocab & grammar:

According to dd your 'grade 8 exam' could be done after book 1 of our serie and 'grade 9' after book 2.

Our culture topics are arranged differently so for grade 8 exam you would need book 2, and book 1 for grade 9.

 

Book 1 of our serie is written to start in grade 7,

Book 2 is written for grade 8 so it seems 'typical' and 'standard' exams.

Dd considered these examsamples pretty easy compared to the exams of our textbook serie (these tend to be hard)

AP Latin compares to our grade 10 exams, but to get a diploma (which is pretty important in Europe) dd has to pass grade 12 exit exams.

 

'Gymnasium' is pretty widely recognized in Europe.

 

HTH!

 

ETA: Tress uses / used this serie too, and is more well known with American Latin series,

So she might be able to compare MP / Henle with our textbook serie

 

I'll bet your text is Flemish --> Latin and not English --> Latin, right?  Too bad, it sounds good!  Let me know if it is English-Latin by any chance!

[Loesje22000]

I'll bet your text is Flemish --> Latin and not English --> Latin, right? Too bad, it sounds good! Let me know if it is English-Latin by any chance!

I'm sorry, it is a Flemish -> Latin Text.

Would Cambridge Latin fit the bill?

I'm sorry to say but for foreign languages we rely mostly on European textbooks.

 

Dd used Minimus 1+2 in elementary school, but it is no help for your exams.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm sorry, it is a Flemish -> Latin Text.

Would Cambridge Latin fit the bill?

I'm sorry to say but for foreign languages we rely mostly on European textbooks.

 

Dd used Minimus 1+2 in elementary school, but it is no help for your exams.

 

Thanks anyway!  

 

We are using a German textbook for German, and I like it because it seems much more "serious" than lower level US German texts.  That is, it has an expected proficiency level printed on the book (A1, A2, etc.), so I feel it's probably a pretty solid program if they aren't making vague claims about "exposure" and "comfort" the way US kids language books tend to do.  

 

It looks like the Swiss book for Latin is called Latin Forum, but I can't find anywhere to buy it...  I'll have to hunt around and ask at the bookstore.  It may be better for me to just use US texts and plan to cover more than necessary in order to accommodate the different scope and sequences...

[Loesje22000]

Third try,

It comes in several small posts now.

 

Hatier had latin and sells through Amazon:

http://www.editions-hatier.fr/collection/latin-college

5me is grade 7 right?

[Loesje22000]

Joan told me once www.deboeck.com also sells in la Suisse.

It has a serie for Latin too:

http://secondaire.deboeck.com/titres/133018_1_0/9782804193041-prosper.html

Year one = grade 7 we start to count over again in secondary school

[Loesje22000]

This one is not complete:

http://www.vanin.be/fr/enseignement-secondaire/latin/argo/liste-des-materiaux

But has the first 2 years.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I've learned and taught Latin from French books and English books (both American and UK)

The two approaches are apples and oranges. Since French has many of the same notions as Latin (gender, adjective-noun agreement, extensive verb conjugation....) the order in which notions are seen are totally different. And as France is a country that was/is heavily influenced by Roman culture, that aspect is in all years of Latin. 

One example is that the first year of Latin I did with a long distance school from Belgium had us translating The Gaelic Wars. First year. This was aimed at adults though, but the whole year was spent on that book. Knowledge of the tribes and geography was assumed (as if that helped me with the translations.. ah!)

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I've learned and taught Latin from French books and English books (both American and UK)

The two approaches are apples and oranges. Since French has many of the same notions as Latin (gender, adjective-noun agreement, extensive verb conjugation....) the order in which notions are seen are totally different. And as France is a country that was/is heavily influenced by Roman culture, that aspect is in all years of Latin. 

One example is that the first year of Latin I did with a long distance school from Belgium had us translating The Gaelic Wars. First year. This was aimed at adults though, but the whole year was spent on that book. Knowledge of the tribes and geography was assumed (as if that helped me with the translations.. ah!)

 

It certainly seems to make more sense to use a French text so that all the language parallels are used to advantage.  I think we will end up going that route...

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I've learned and taught Latin from French books and English books (both American and UK)

The two approaches are apples and oranges. Since French has many of the same notions as Latin (gender, adjective-noun agreement, extensive verb conjugation....) the order in which notions are seen are totally different. And as France is a country that was/is heavily influenced by Roman culture, that aspect is in all years of Latin. 

One example is that the first year of Latin I did with a long distance school from Belgium had us translating The Gaelic Wars. First year. This was aimed at adults though, but the whole year was spent on that book. Knowledge of the tribes and geography was assumed (as if that helped me with the translations.. ah!)

 

Do you happen to know a Latin text in French that is either self-teaching or doesn't require prior Latin knowledge from the teacher?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Nope. Which is why we switched to English. 

Although I do have Liber Primus and Secundus (and teacher material) here. Otherwise we took the CNED latin classes but there's only 2 years being offered.