julikins Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 My 11 year old son, who is finishing 5th grade, has not had a great Math experience in life. His sister has done well using MUS from the very beginning. But when I did it with him, he just looked at me perplexed over and over again for months. He just didn't get it in kindergarten, we tried again in First grade and got through most of Alpha. But then he hit another road block. I took him out and did general things--teaching the clock, money, basic geometry, using the Math Mammoth Blue series topics. But there was too much on a page and it overwhelmed him. I tried to go back to MUS but the same thing happened. So in 3rd grade I moved him to CLE Math, but he placed in 2nd grade. He did really well, except he couldn't seem to get caught up. The volume of work for one lesson was all he could do in a day and he was behind a whole grade. Then before too long, in 4th grade (doing 3rd grade work), the volume of work completely overwhelmed him. We skipped problems, he'd fail the test. We'd give him longer to do the lesson, breaking it up into a couple days, and he'd get totally lost in what he was doing. We skipped problems (do the odds) and do it in one day. That's when the ADD symptoms seemed to really kick in. I believe in not moving on until he gets it but it was taking forever and the tears were becoming a constant, daily occurrence. We weren't making any progress. So last year, the beginning of his fifth grade year, we switched to Teaching Textbooks. He placed halfway into their 4th grade year and about three weeks ago he finished it. He still doesn't have his multiplication tables memorized, even though we reviewed them daily. We would play games online, he has one of those handheld machines. FLASHCARDS! We have our standardized testing next week and I've been doing some reviews with him, and he had no idea how to carry in a multiplication problem. What is going on? Is it Teaching Textbooks? Is he just not able to pay attention to it, like it's not sinking in? He finished every problem and gets a 100% on it. But he isn't retaining anything? Or is it him? He's been tested ADD and the psychologist didn't recommend medication because his is so slight. He didn't qualify for any services in the school system because it's not that bad, they said. He tested off the charts in visual/spatial, they recommended we point him toward engineering. How do I do that if he can't do math! To add to the conundrum, we live overseas. So the only resources we have are what we bring down with us or I can download from the internet. I have the next TT5 set. I have the complete Math Mammoth set. I have all the DVD's from MUS through Algebra. I'm willing to sit down with him and help him through it, to make sure he's getting it. Was I too lax and assumed that he was understanding it all because he completed the assignments and got good grades? I'm scared to see what the SAT is going to tell me. I do have a 4 yr. and a 1 yr. and perhaps I was too distracted to notice? I feel like perhaps I need to find out where he really is comprehension-wise and go back to that with some curriculum and plod along with him until he gets it. Any recommendations? (How do I do that?) Any advice on what resources to use and how you would do it? We are going to the States for the month of September for my parents' 50th, so we can buy something that I don't have if necessary. I'm willing to work hard with him. (By the way, I'm not the math whiz in our family, my husband can help a bit, but he's super busy. School is my thing.) Thanks in advance. ETA: I posted this on the K-8 board and they recommended I put it over here. One lady suggested perhaps a late-bloomer. Another suggested that it could be need for vision therapy. He did see a COVD optometrist last time we were in the U.S. and did well with the therapy. I'm going to have his eyes checked when we go again in September, even though he isn't complaining of the headaches or squinting like he was before. 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 (edited) Well make sure the eye doc is testing his visual memory. Did they do that before when they did the VT? On the multiplication facts, you could get Ronit Bird's ebook on multiplication and work through it. As he gets the facts, put them into an app and begin drilling them. Did the psych consider SLDs? Personally, if there are not SLDs and he's having THAT SIGNIFICANT an issue with completing his math, I'd put him on the ADHD meds. The psych was totally wet when he said they didn't matter. Also, have you worked on working memory? The short term working memory is sort of the scratch pad of the brain, allowing things to go over to long-term memory. So you can do something like heathermomster's metronome homework, adding in digit spans, and get that working memory up. There are lots of ways to work on it (kinesthetic, auditory, etc.) and I would do that. He also sounds like a VSL picture/story sort of way of learning the facts would work for him. (Times Tales, etc.) Have you already tried that? It's true, my dd with ADHD who got VT at 11 didn't get her facts solid for a LONG time. I really don't buy the late bloomer thing, not a fan of it at all as an excuse for not intervening, but reality is with my dd's mix they came in later. Ironically, my ds has SLD math (dyscalculia) with no vision problems and has had lots of therapy for working memory, etc. etc., and he has NO issue with math facts. Once he actually understands the math, he has it. Thank Ronit Bird for that. So he has ADHD as part of his mix and no issue learning the facts once he learns them. I'm not sure I can say dd's ADHD is more severe, since ds is QUITE impulsive, mercy. I really think the visual memory problems resulting from the convergence issues set her back. How is his processing speed? So if you went back and did MUS with him, how would he do? It sounds like it might be more practical for you to do a mix of things, doing MUS with him for conceptual and then doing TT to follow it up and get faster. That could be a really strong mix for him! And that could get done. If you went back to all MUS, would it get done? Yes, working on working memory and sequencing with supports (cards to show steps, etc.) might help with the multiplication. That's hard stuff! Fwiw, Ronit Bird is my math program of choice these days, but it's not independent. I'm pairing it with some daily math workbooks from Teacher Created Resources. Yes, you can buy them as ebooks and print or use on an ipad. I really like them actually. With dd I've used TT, BJU, RS, MUS, etc. etc. Ronit Bird is amazing, but it's so not practical for your situation. If you got *just* the multiplication ebook, you could work through that and see if you could get those facts solid. Really though, there was this odd point in our RightStart work where dd could do the games with cards/words and NOT know it when it came to written! I think it was the visual processing problems. You can be VSL and still have visual processing problems. That's why I was asking if the eye doc followed the therapy with testing to make sure he was age-appropriate for visual processing. Edited May 30, 2016 by OhElizabeth 2 Quote
SarahW Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 I can't say anything really concrete. But just commiserating. My kiddo is likely ADHD, VSL, and does not have his multiplication table down cold. Or even his addition facts, really. He still cautiously calculates anything that goes over a ten, like 22+9. I never did CLE, but I did try MM for a bit in 2nd and it made him cry. I've backed way off on the math facts and focused on number sense and competition style math. So BA, old Primary Math Challenge practice tests, logic puzzles, those sorts of things. It's nerve wracking to just keep going if they don't have the facts down, but figuring out the area of a circle also practices arithmetic, and after doing it over and over in different contexts, the facts do start to sink in. My son loves GNs, so the BA guide books are a huge hit with him. I've also handed him other "living" math books, but he was pretty meh on all of them except G is for Googol, the Number Devil, and a few of the Murderous Maths books. We also watch some math documentaries (The Story of 1 is a fun one to start with) and read aloud some math books. But my son likes math, so he finds these things fun. I have noticed with my son that he needs to see the "whole" and understand the theory and concepts to see how the individual daily lesson fits into it. I've given up on finding the perfect curriculum. BA has worked the best so far, but he's getting antsy about that now, too. Have you signed him up for Prodigy? My son likes it okay, and it's better than other "math games" things I've seen. It helps practice facts. My suggestion is to find a whole-parts curriculum, do conceptual math, and back up the facts with something like Prodigy. If he hates Prodigy something like a quick run through Khan is fine too, some kids prefer virtual badges over virtual wizard battles, they're the same idea. But that's what works for my kid. ymmv. 2 Quote
Alessandra Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 Math can be tough! One thing I am getting from your post is a concern about grade level, about getting your son 'caught up.' My suggestion would be to move away from thinking about grade levels and focus on building a firm foundation in math skills -- besides math facts, that would include number sense and logical thinking. Rather than trying to get through a program -- you mentioned doing odd numbered problems, for example -- you could do the program in depth for greater understanding and fluency. At our house, we add games, fun workbooks, manipulatives of every sort. If we have to stay at a level for a while, so be it. My dd hears lots of affirming talk from me about how important it is to build a good foundation and not rush through a program only to forget it. I can't advise on specific programs, but I might suggest that you get some good manipulatives and games while you are here, as I am thinking they would be more expensive to ship than books. Quote
Heathermomster Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 Overcoming Difficulties with Number by Ronit Bird discusses all the pre-skills neccesary for learning multiplication facts. The book also provides alternatives for traditional math algorithms using fewer steps. When DS was your son's age, I started applying RB methods to our existing math curriculum. From my perspective, math curriculum serves as a source of problem sets. DS finally learned his times tables by late 5th grade, and then required periodic fact review using the MUS online drill generator. DS is a rising 11th grader and will start geometry in the fall. I cannot rush him, and it would be pointless to try. I hope to have Algebra II covered by graduation. Your DS sounds like he has a maths disability. My eldest sibling was blind but could make change mentally and understood the concept of time. I doubt vision issues are affecting the conceptual math problems that you are describing. Maybe consider getting a full np eval when you return to the states. DS mastered the clock by about 8th grade and can handle making change as a teenager. For the clock, he wore an analog/digital watch combo for a couple of years and now only wears analog watches. If your child has working memory and processings speed deficits, you will need to accommodate those deficits by slowing down and reducing the number of problems during one setting. We have used manipulatives over the years. Mainly, DS needs to learn and master one concept at a time with plenty of review. We take a top down approach, and he understands the more difficult math concepts while struggling with simple ones. It is the craziest thing that I have ever seen. Good luck! 1 Quote
summerreading Posted May 30, 2016 Posted May 30, 2016 I don't have answers, but just stopping by to say I really sympathize with you! This sounds so much like my older son. He has always wanted to be an engineer, so I'm stressing on the STEM kid not great at math thing too. He does like to supplement with Khan though. Likes the badges and points. His brothers do Prodigy but he isn't interested. Quote
PeterPan Posted May 31, 2016 Posted May 31, 2016 volume of work too much on page overwhelmed needing breaks I think it's right to review and ask about the SLD math, but I don't see her saying anything about not understanding the concepts or having issues with number sense (the underlying issue of dyscalculia). Everything she's listing there is ADHD inattentive. My ds has SLD math and learns facts easily once he actually "gets" the concept. No trouble memorizing. My dd with ADHD inattentive and no SLD math had a wretched time learning math facts. It was the low working memory and poor visualization. I also think the op is misunderstanding her ps evals. ADHD in the school system can be handled with an IEP or a 504. A 504 gets you accommodations (something they would have done readily), but an IEP actually means you need specialized education. It's really a different thing, a higher bar. LOTS of kids with LOTS of labels have a diagnosis but DON'T get an IEP. The bar is "does it affect his ability to access his education"... So if your ds was able to be in the room, have appropriate behavior, and work, then he's able to access his education. The mere fact that he's overwhelmed or needing breaks is no biggee. They'd just put in the 504 to give him breaks, done. My ds has ADHD as part of his mix, and the school puts nothing for it in his IEP. He has a 23 page IEP and there's NOTHING for the ADHD in there. Seriously. Because it doesn't affect his ability to access his education. The ps doesn't care if your kid gets good grades or is able to perform the way you want. Just can he access his education. Your ds CAN access his education, so their responsibility is done. But YOUR call as the parent is to ask whether the ADHD (or visual processing or...) is hindering what he COULD do and leaving him less successful than he COULD be. Clearly SOMETHING is. Look back at the achievement testing they did. How were his math test scores? There should be conceptual and computation scores. You can see where the problem lies. If his conceptual scores are fine and his computation are poor, that's probably the ADHD. And then your options are meds, getting his vision checked to make sure he's visualizing and using his visual memory well, working on working memory, etc. All those can make a BIG DIFFERENCE!! So to equate the ps "oh he's not bad enough to need an IEP" with "he doesn't need ADHD meds" just is NOT accurate. It really is not. The ps was not eval'ing to decide whether he needs ADHD meds. They were evaling to see if his ADHD causes such extreme situations that he can't even access his education. It's a pretty high bar, because there's lots of money involved. They CANNOT legally tell you to put him on meds. They CAN'T. The ps has to work without whatever he comes in as, even if meds would totally eliminate the problem. And if he can access his education, they'll let him be a C student, whatever, and it's not their problem. I would also note he's relatively on grade level. He's in danger of slipping and you need to get this shaped up. Personally, I'd give him a multiplication table, go through some RB, working on working memory *aggressively*, pursue meds, and get his eyes checked. It's really not the end of the world if the math facts are slow to come, because you can move forward with the conceptual stuff and use a math table or even (shudder) a calculator. My dd's math computation scores IMPROVED the year we handed her a calculator. I kid you not! But they improved because she had to look at each problem and decide if it was faster for her to do the math in her head or with the calculator. I also didn't allow her to put in the WHOLE thing. It was more entering in just the math for the single step in the division problem, that kind of thing. It was a concession to her very low processing speed. She'd get tired in our sessions and you could just see her brain fritz out. Meds would help that. Calculators help. Quote
julikins Posted June 1, 2016 Author Posted June 1, 2016 Wow, ladies, thank you so much for your input. I'm reading through it, trying to process it all. I have to admit that I'm needing some education in this area of testing and difficulties. I'm not sure what most of the abbreviations mean. SLD, GN, VSL. I can guess and have tried to search for their meanings but haven't been able to figure them out. Sorry. I've copied your replies into Word and am highlighting all the recommendations and will probably come back with questions. But thank you. I do want to do what is best for him. He's such a sweet boy who doesn't understand why he struggles so much, why he gets so easily distracted, why he can't seem to remember things. So I appreciate your helping this mama help her sweet boy. Quote
julikins Posted June 1, 2016 Author Posted June 1, 2016 I have not tried Times Tales but have looked at it. I actually think it's in my Rainbow Resources wish list. And I have been considering something like Beast Academy. He is very visual. He can put together the most complicated Lego sets all by himself. He can concentrate on that. That's why it's so confusing. Quote
julikins Posted June 1, 2016 Author Posted June 1, 2016 I pulled out several things each of you said and tried to bring it all together. Well make sure the eye doc is testing his visual memory. On the multiplication facts, you could get Ronit Bird's ebook on multiplication and work through it. As he gets the facts, put them into an app and begin drilling them. The short term working memory is sort of the scratch pad of the brain, allowing things to go over to long-term memory. So you can do something like heathermomster's metronome homework, adding in digit spans, and get that working memory up. There are lots of ways to work on it (kinesthetic, auditory, etc.) and I would do that. VSL picture/story sort of way of learning the facts So if you went back and did MUS with him, how would he do? It sounds like it might be more practical for you to do a mix of things, doing MUS with him for conceptual and then doing TT to follow it up and get faster. That could be a really strong mix for him! And that could get done. So BA, old Primary Math Challenge practice tests, logic puzzles, those sorts of things. Have you signed him up for Prodigy? My suggestion is to find a whole-parts curriculum, do conceptual math, and back up the facts with something like Prodigy. If he hates Prodigy something like a quick run through Khan My suggestion would be to move away from thinking about grade levels and focus on building a firm foundation in math skills -- besides math facts, that would include number sense and logical thinking I can't advise on specific programs, but I might suggest that you get some good manipulatives and games while you are here Maybe consider getting a full np eval when you return to the states. $2000!! If your child has working memory and processings speed deficits, you will need to accommodate those deficits by slowing down and reducing the number of problems during one setting. We have used manipulatives over the years. Mainly, DS needs to learn and master one concept at a time with plenty of review. But YOUR call as the parent is to ask whether the ADHD (or visual processing or...) is hindering what he COULD do and leaving him less successful than he COULD be. Clearly SOMETHING is. Look back at the achievement testing they did. How were his math test scores? There should be conceptual and computation scores. You can see where the problem lies. If his conceptual scores are fine and his computation are poor, that's probably the ADHD. And then your options are meds, getting his vision checked to make sure he's visualizing and using his visual memory well, working on working memory, etc. All those can make a BIG DIFFERENCE!! Personally, I'd give him a multiplication table, go through some RB, working on working memory *aggressively*, pursue meds, and get his eyes checked ​I absolutely agree that it is my responsibility to do this. I may have overestimated the public school evaluation because before it I did suspect working memory as an issue. (I'll have to educate myself on that.) And I don't want to be stuck to a curriculum. I want him to learn and to have that foundation I always talk with them about. I've got to make him more a priority now that the little ones are a little bigger (4 and 1). Here are a couple other pieces to the puzzle. He has horrible handwriting, never on the line, badly unreadable. He grips things strangely with his whole hand instead of his finger tips. He doesn't seem to struggle with any of his other school work, except perhaps in his composition. He loves grammar, science, etc, but composition is a struggle too, when I think about it. I just sit there and make him rewrite things I can't read, flesh out short sentences, that kind of thing. He's a natural speller. And to add to that are the constant struggles of losing everything, never being able to find a pencil or his assignment book, or the sheet of paper that was just in his hand. That takes up a lot of time in the day. We are traveling this week, so don't have access to the file the PS gave me on my ds. So I'll have to do that when I get home the end of the week. They're doing their national testing this week. Thanks, ladies. If you have any other thoughts I'm all ears. Quote
Heathermomster Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 SLD means specific learning difficulty. BTW, it is very common for handwriting and maths disability to be co-morbid. Issues with composition will effect sequencing and organization of output alongside legibility and handwriting speed. My DS has 3 SLDs, dyscalculia/dysgraphia/dyslexia, and his inability to self organize gives me fits. Some people believe that maths disability may be divided into sub-groups. It is entirely possible to understand math concepts but be unable to complete arithmetic. Basically, a full neuropsychological evaluation can tease the issues apart. 1 Quote
PeterPan Posted June 1, 2016 Posted June 1, 2016 Has he had an OT eval? The working memory score should be in the IQ testing. Quote
sbgrace Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 I do think it sounds like there could be underlying learning disability issues that need investigated. I have known kids (irl) who were making 100's on TT but not learning. He/you aren't alone in that. I'm mostly responding because math is the one academic area where ADHD medicine has most helped here. It's night and day when his medicine kicks in, and math is always the first thing we do when it does kick in. He does half a CLE lesson (his choice of problems). I then sit with him and do the other half. We do math year round. Quote
texasmama Posted June 2, 2016 Posted June 2, 2016 (edited) Since CLE worked well for him (and is a solid program), I would return to it while investigating the other avenues/issues mentioned by previous posters. I have one child who is in CLE but "behind", as well. The child will do math year-round until being caught up. My kid is roughly the age/stage of your kid (but with no SLD's or ADHD) and can manage two CLE lessons per day. We have worked our way up to that, though. I'm kind of in love with CLE math, and my CLE kid no longer has crying math meltdowns and really understands math. CLE helps this kid feel competent in math. (We switched from Singapore, btw.) So forget the grade level on the front cover, use CLE because it works and is solid, consider breaking math lessons into several different parts over the day, and do math year-round. ETA: My CLE kid worked in many different ways over a span of about three years to memorize multiplication facts and finally now has most of them memorized. I did not "make a thing" over it - I just provided a multiplication chart while adding some extra practice sheets and using different programs. I offered as much of this as was tolerated without causing frustration. We have had a very successful math year this year. :) Edited June 2, 2016 by texasmama Quote
julikins Posted June 4, 2016 Author Posted June 4, 2016 I'm not sure if there was an occupational therapist amongst the staff that did his evaluations at the school. I'll look into it. I bought the book, the Mislabeled Child. Are there any other books that you recommend for these issues? Smart but Scattered is another one I have. Quote
Julie of KY Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 I agree with the others about testing to see what might be going on. I want to say it's OKAY to be behind in math for whatever reason. I think it is much more important to teach the concepts well rather than rush to try to catch up. If you are rushing, then the foundation is not understood well, which will haunt you later in math. I'd much rather see a child take their time and learn the math along the way rather than just be frustrated later that they don't understand anything. You do have the potential to "catch up" some as many people do prealgebra skills over a number of years. Teach at a pace comfortable to your student - with my gal who was behind, we did little bits of multiple areas (a little multiplication alongside some clock work and maybe some geometry). She could handle the volume in different areas, but not in one area. Understanding is better than rushing. This doesn't mean you have to master it before moving on though. It is fine to set aside a topic that is frustrating and come back to it later - just don't set aside it at a 4th grade level and come back to it at a 5th grade level - keep working at the level your student is at. Take lots of breaks. Does he need you to sit with him and do it? - I know this is hard with little ones. Seek out an understanding of what is going on (learning disabilities, ADHD, vision, etc) Another free resource is MEP though "I" like their materials much better starting with level 7 where it is not so integrated and you can pick and choose what you want to work on. Quote
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