Racehorses Dying

[goldberry]

Is this normal??  This seems really disturbing.

 

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2016/05/21/preakness-accidents/

2 Horses Die In First 4 Races On Preakness Day Undercard

[creekland]

No, it's not normal.  Horses occasionally break a leg during a race (as the one did), but the one who died after winning a race is very unusual.  Note that he was 9 years old - very old for a racehorse, but pretty normal for an otherwise competitive equine (dressage or hunters).  That might have had something to do with it.

 

It's a sad day for Pimlico.

 

Next will come all the folks talking about how horrible horse racing is (sigh).

 

 

[Rachel]

No this is not normal. I live in horse racing country and can't remember ever hearing of a horse collapsing with heart problems. You do occasionally hear of a horse breaking its leg and having to be put down. Horse owners don't want to put their horses down though.

[Rachel]

No, it's not normal. Horses occasionally break a leg during a race (as the one did), but the one who died after winning a race is very unusual. Note that he was 9 years old - very old for a racehorse, but pretty normal for an otherwise competitive equine (dressage or hunters). That might have had something to do with it.

 

It's a sad day for Pimlico.

 

Next will come all the folks talking about how horrible horse racing is (sigh).

I read the article to my husband, he was shocked the 9 year old was still racing. It ran in the 2009 Derby so it must have been a good horse at one time.

[goldberry]

Okay, that adds a little perspective, thanks.

[poppy]

No, it's not normal. Horses occasionally break a leg during a race (as the one did), but the one who died after winning a race is very unusual. Note that he was 9 years old - very old for a racehorse, but pretty normal for an otherwise competitive equine (dressage or hunters). That might have had something to do with it.

 

It's a sad day for Pimlico.

 

 

Next will come all the folks talking about how horrible horse racing is (sigh).

.

 

Does anyone think horseracing is good for horses?

Serious question - it never occurred to me that anyone thought it was.

Edited May 21, 2016 by poppy

[Guest]

.

 

Does anyone think horseracing is good for horses?

Serious question - it never occurred to me that anyone thought it was.

They're bred for it. Some of them love it. We owned QH race horses all through my childhood. Those horses are largely treated better than many people treat their children. As in anything, there are always exceptions but when you invest tens of thousands (or in some cases millions) of dollars in something you tend to take very good care of it. That was at least our experience. Most people in the sport do it because they love it, not because they're trying to get rich.

[MercyA]

"On average, 24 horses die each week at racetracks across America."

 

"Since 2009, records show, trainers at United States tracks have been caught illegally drugging horses 3,800 times, a figure that vastly understates the problem because only a small percentage of horses are actually tested."

 

"A state-by-state survey by The Times shows that about 3,600 horses died racing or training at state-regulated tracks over the last three years."

 

"The Times obtained hundreds of necropsy reports on racehorses that died racing in Pennsylvania and found problems that included 'severe degenerative joint disease,' 'severe chronic osteoarthritis' and pneumonia with 'severe, extensive' lung inflammation. One horse had 50 stomach ulcers."

 

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/us/death-and-disarray-at-americas-racetracks.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

It's absolutely shameful that horses are drugged, injured, and killed for the sake of entertainment. I do think it's terrible. (And just for the record, my father has owned horses for over 20 years, so I know something about how they should be treated.)

[MercyA]

They're bred for it. Some of them love it. We owned QH race horses all through my childhood. Those horses are largely treated better than many people treat their children. As in anything, there are always exceptions but when you invest tens of thousands (or in some cases millions) of dollars in something you tend to take very good care of it. That was at least our experience. Most people in the sport do it because they love it, not because they're trying to get rich.

 

But what usually happens to the horses when they retire from racing?

 

According to the Washington Post, "Approximately two out of every three thoroughbreds that come off the track -- even those that are sound and healthy -- are euthanized, abandoned on public land or in empty fields, or slaughtered -- their meat exported to Europe and Japan for human consumption....The USDA estimates that more than 90,000 horses were exported to Canada and Mexico last year for slaughter. The Livestock Marketing Association, which advocates the resumption of horse slaughter in this country, puts the number at more than 120,000."

 

"The Humane Society asserts that the conditions under which the horses are transported to the slaughterhouses don't address the unique needs of the animals, which are crammed into low-ceilinged trailers designed for cattle, sheep and pigs that don't allow horses to hold their heads at a natural height. USDA regulations permit horses to be transported for 24 hours straight without food or water. Once at the slaughterhouse, horses are exposed to the loud noise of the plant, slippery floors and the odor of blood, all of which terrify the animals and trigger their flight response."

 

Not a happy fate. 

[Guest]

But what usually happens to the horses when they retire from racing?

 

According to the Washington Post, "Approximately two out of every three thoroughbreds that come off the track -- even those that are sound and healthy -- are euthanized, abandoned on public land or in empty fields, or slaughtered -- their meat exported to Europe and Japan for human consumption....The USDA estimates that more than 90,000 horses were exported to Canada and Mexico last year for slaughter. The Livestock Marketing Association, which advocates the resumption of horse slaughter in this country, puts the number at more than 120,000."

 

"The Humane Society asserts that the conditions under which the horses are transported to the slaughterhouses don't address the unique needs of the animals, which are crammed into low-ceilinged trailers designed for cattle, sheep and pigs that don't allow horses to hold their heads at a natural height. USDA regulations permit horses to be transported for 24 hours straight without food or water. Once at the slaughterhouse, horses are exposed to the loud noise of the plant, slippery floors and the odor of blood, all of which terrify the animals and trigger their flight response."

 

Not a happy fate.

I can only say this is something we never witnessed. Winning horses go on to breeding careers. People at our pleasure barn even now lined up to turn retired racers into hunter jumpers. It takes a bit of training but they have excellent prospects. I don't know where WP got their stats. They're intermixing general horse slaughter numbers with racing stats for one. But if you think logically about it, WHY would I spend 50k on a horse, then another $150k on training over three years not to mention veterinary, board, and feed and then just ship the horse off to slaughter? I could sell it to a 4H kid for more than I could per pound to Mexico or Europe. Do you think something rings a little hollow on those numbers? I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, I'm rather saying this picture is not an accurate portrayal of the vast majority of horse owners. It's like taking a picture of euthanized dogs at pounds and trying to apply it to dog owners in general.

[poppy]

 

 

It's like taking a picture of euthanized dogs at pounds and trying to apply it to dog owners in general.

 

Or, like trying to apply it to greyhounds are treated after racing.... which is generally not good, right?

[obsidian]

I've got mixed emotions about horse racing. It can be done well, and the horses do generally like racing. Unfortunately, it's not often done well, as evidenced by Mercy's statistics. :( It's horribly sad what happens to many horses after they race. And many of those that meet awful fates could have had happy second careers. I work at a barn that retrains racehorses, and we get in tons of sound horses that go on to live happy lives eventing, doing dressage, trail riding, etc. We get in some not so sound ones too (one that had EPM, one found in a killpen with a broken hip, and so on), and they've all found good homes as well.

[obsidian]

Well...you can't sell it for more to a 4H kid than a kill buyer if the horse is lame or extremely hot or whatever.

[JoJosMom]

I can only say this is something we never witnessed. Winning horses go on to breeding careers. People at our pleasure barn even now lined up to turn retired racers into hunter jumpers. It takes a bit of training but they have excellent prospects. I don't know where WP got their stats. They're intermixing general horse slaughter numbers with racing stats for one. But if you think logically about it, WHY would I spend 50k on a horse, then another $150k on training over three years not to mention veterinary, board, and feed and then just ship the horse off to slaughter? I could sell it to a 4H kid for more than I could per pound to Mexico or Europe. Do you think something rings a little hollow on those numbers? I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, I'm rather saying this picture is not an accurate portrayal of the vast majority of horse owners. It's like taking a picture of euthanized dogs at pounds and trying to apply it to dog owners in general.

 

The 1986 Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand wound up being slaughtered in Japan.

 

I am not totally against racing -you are right that the horses are bred to run and love it.  The problem is the numbers.  For every horse that makes it to the track and wins there are many who never get that far.  They can't all be placed. Many do wind up being slaughtered.  It's sad.

[creekland]

I've got mixed emotions about horse racing. It can be done well, and the horses do generally like racing. Unfortunately, it's not often done well, as evidenced by Mercy's statistics. :( It's horribly sad what happens to many horses after they race. And many of those that meet awful fates could have had happy second careers. I work at a barn that retrains racehorses, and we get in tons of sound horses that go on to live happy lives eventing, doing dressage, trail riding, etc. We get in some not so sound ones too (one that had EPM, one found in a killpen with a broken hip, and so on), and they've all found good homes as well.

 

Ditto.  I love dog racing too, but wish certain participants in it would leave the sport.

 

Most of these animals love what they do - it shows.  Those that don't never really make it to the track and in my youth I worked at a barn that gave many of those decent careers showing.  We took a couple off the track (flat or chasers) too.

 

Sports can be hard on bodies - human or animal.  That's part of life.  It doesn't mean those who love what they are doing need to stop or that people ought to quit watching sports.

 

I've never, ever been against horse slaughter.  It's a good way to put to use the bodies of equines without homes - far better than euthanizing them and letting others get raised for food instead.  It's not like we're going to stop folks (or critters) from eating horses.  They're a prey animal that many opt to eat, not unlike beef.

[Guest]

Or, like trying to apply it to greyhounds are treated after racing.... which is generally not good, right?

I don't know anything about greyhound racing except what is covered in the press which I'm assuming is not necessarily the complete picture, but I don't know, maybe it is. Horses are a huge investments- racing or otherwise. I'm guessing dogs are not- I wouldn't really compare the owners of one to another necessarily. Im guessing you're looking at a bit of a socioeconomic difference between the types of owners too when it comes to racing. That's a guess though as again- I don't know anything about greyhounds. I do however know about racehorses, and having owned a couple and spent more time than I can count at the barns and the tracks, I feel as if I have some qualification to speak here. However if you've owned some and your experience is different, not dismissing your experience.

 

I'm going to also point out that horses are a target of mistreatment in general because unprepared people go in without a full picture of the cost. My gut is that the WP blended stats of overall horse slaughter numbers with some racing stats- it would be interesting to see the sources for all of these, as I don't really remember ever filing with anyone exactly what I did with any of my horses besides my insurance company. But anyway, In this area of Texas horses are abandoned in fields and roadsides or left starving in pastures. Regular old horses of all breeds and sizes. People underestimate the cost of horse care and in some areas here and in some cultures owership of a horse is a social status thing. People get in over their heads. There are a ton of mistreated horses in general. I'm sure it does happen to some race horses but that doesn't mean race horses have a corner on the a use market. I have not seen it to be true in any racing barn I have been around, but I'm sure it happens somewhere. But to say everywhere is a huge leap.

 

Maybe in some barns for the cheaper races and the cheaper horses I could maybe see it.....but I'm not believing for a minute that any of the horses running at Pimloco today are at risk of getting sent to the slaughter house for pennies on the pound. Again- no one in their right mind spends that kind of money to just flush it away.

[creekland]

They can't all be placed. Many do wind up being slaughtered.  It's sad.

 

Why is it sad?  There are people who breed horses just for slaughter just as they do cows, pigs, etc.  Is it somehow better that more are bred just for slaughter than to use those that are unwanted and already alive having been bred for another purpose?

 

If we just euthanize those who were racers and didn't make the cut for showing or similar, then two horses had to die to fill the slot on plates or in animal feed.  It's far better IMO if only one dies.

[poppy]

Race cars are extremely expense and yet also kind of disposable - like they go through several pairs of tires in one race. The investment is in the speed / ability to compete not the vehicle and it's components which are disposable .

[Guest]

The 1986 Kentucky Derby winner Ferdinand wound up being slaughtered in Japan.

 

I am not totally against racing -you are right that the horses are bred to run and love it. The problem is the numbers. For every horse that makes it to the track and wins there are many who never get that far. They can't all be placed. Many do wind up being slaughtered. It's sad.

I remember hearing that story- but that is a risk you take when selling ANY horse. That's why we keep our horses. But it is a risk when you own something that lives for 30+ years, that you won't have a say so where it ends up once you sell it. Slaughter is a possible outcome in my view for any horse, whether you believe it's right or wrong- and that's an entirely different discussion.

[Guest]

Race cars are extremely expense and yet also kind of disposable - like they go through several pairs of tires in one race. The investment is in the speed / ability to compete not the vehicle and it's components which are disposable .

Depends on the kind of racing....some people race collectibles. But I personally would never compare a vehicle race to a horse race. I think the emotional investment for many of us who had racehorses is something that can't be understood unless you've experienced it. That probably doesn't ring true for investors and absentee owners though, but that wasn't my situation. They have a way of taking over your life (and your income) which is why my family doesn't participate in racing anymore- but it's an experience I wouldn't trade for anything, and I wouldn't try to ever dissuade a dedicated person from pursuing it. But for me that time has passed- now I'm content with my pasture ornaments staring through my window. :)

[Tsuga]

.

 

Does anyone think horseracing is good for horses?

Serious question - it never occurred to me that anyone thought it was.

 

I never liked the drugs or anything but they are domesticated animals and I think that they do enjoy racing. It's outdoors, most of their lives are spent outdoors, etc.

 

I'd have to take a pretty hard stand against domesticated animals, period, to take a stand against racing. I mean does anyone think dogs like being crated or chickens eaten or sheep sheared?

 

With the exception of vegans I think many people will have a hard time taking a principled stand on this issue in particular.

 

That said I think the doping issue is seriously awful, and I think it's bad for people as well. Some people think that human racing should go the way of horse racing--I think the opposite.

[MercyA]

texasmom33, thank you for sharing your experiences. You know I have a lot of respect for you, and I trust your experiences were as you've described them. From what I understand, though, most horses bred for racing don't actually end up racing, and if they do, they finish their racing career very early in life. I understand that some (many? most?) expensively maintained, winning horses go on to be bred or on to other careers. On the other hand, I imagine that many people are unwilling to pay the high cost of caring for a horse for 20+ years if the horse didn't do well or is finished making money.

 

The comparison to euthanized pets is an interesting one. I'd like to think most pet owners treat their animals like I do. However, with 2.5 million cats and dogs euthanized in shelters every year, maybe the average pet owner actually isn't like me, after all.  :(

 

If you read the Washington Post article, you'll see that some former owners of racehorses just aren't aware of their horses' final fates. From the article: "Of 136 horses there [at a popular auction] that day, Russek [a horse trainer, breeder, and rescuer] estimated at least 20 were thoroughbreds. She was able to positively identify six as ex-racehorses by their tattoos -- found on the underside of every thoroughbred racehorse's lip. Of those, Russek was able to contact the owners of three who then bought their horses back. One horse was Lord Calverton, a bay gelding. His former owner, Robert Leaf, had given him to a woman who had said she would retrain him to be a show horse. Less than three weeks later, he was at New Holland, where he would sell for $375. When Leaf found out, he called the woman and demanded that she buy him back. She did, and Lord Calverton now lives with a family in Virginia." Most no doubt aren't so lucky.

[MercyA]

I remember hearing that story- but that is a risk you take when selling ANY horse. That's why we keep our horses. 

 

I really respect that. My dad does the same.

[JoJosMom]

Why is it sad?  There are people who breed horses just for slaughter just as they do cows, pigs, etc.  Is it somehow better that more are bred just for slaughter than to use those that are unwanted and already alive having been bred for another purpose?

 

If we just euthanize those who were racers and didn't make the cut for showing or similar, then two horses had to die to fill the slot on plates or in animal feed.  It's far better IMO if only one dies.

 

Yes, there is a difference between animals raised for meat and those which have been pampered and treated well by humans and then wind up dumped at a slaughter yard.  Going to a slaughter yard can be a very interesting experience.

[JoJosMom]

I remember hearing that story- but that is a risk you take when selling ANY horse. That's why we keep our horses. But it is a risk when you own something that lives for 30+ years, that you won't have a say so where it ends up once you sell it. Slaughter is a possible outcome in my view for any horse, whether you believe it's right or wrong- and that's an entirely different discussion.

 

 I have three, two of which would be in danger if anything happened to us.  One is a lame old gelding, the other a spoiled pony mare who was allowed to develop some very bad habits.  Owning horses is a huge responsibility, and one which continues for a very long time.  I wish more people would think about that before they purchase them or breed them.

[fairfarmhand]

It's not just racehorses though.

 

Horses are hugely expensive animals to own. As my horse friend told me when we bought our 2 from her "The cheapest thing you'll ever do with a horse if buy it. After that it's the feeding, vetting, foot trimming, and on and on."

 

Many people don't get that. Horses are picky about their food, eat way more than anyone would think, and won't eat just anything green.

 

But, I dont think its just race horses. I mean, look at the problems in the Tennessee Walking industry that keep getting brought up each year. I wonder if the same things occur when other animals are bred for show. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just as common in dog showing, etc.

[Tsuga]

In our own town there were some absolutely insane treatments of horses. Some people are just plain stupid and mean, is what it comes down to. They simply don't think beyond that five-year-old logic of "I wanna horse, wouldn't that be cool?"

 

But that's not racing in particular. People do that with all kinds of animals especially large ones and exotic ones. It's really depressing.

[creekland]

Yes, there is a difference between animals raised for meat and those which have been pampered and treated well by humans and then wind up dumped at a slaughter yard.  Going to a slaughter yard can be a very interesting experience.

 

It's not any better for those raised wild and then getting to experience it.  Horses used to humans tend to at least be used to trailers and new situations in general.

 

However, humans are omnivores.  Some animals that eat horses are carnivores.  Meat gets eaten.

 

Slaughterhouses tend to be better than being in the wild and getting caught by a pack of wolves or a mountain lion (the final destination of many wild and free equines). 

[creekland]

In our own town there were some absolutely insane treatments of horses. Some people are just plain stupid and mean, is what it comes down to. They simply don't think beyond that five-year-old logic of "I wanna horse, wouldn't that be cool?"

 

But that's not racing in particular. People do that with all kinds of animals especially large ones and exotic ones. It's really depressing.

 

This is why we won't sell ponies to just anyone and never to those who call and ask if we have any "Spirit colored" ones.  (relating to the Disney film)

[JoJosMom]

It's not just racehorses though.

 

Horses are hugely expensive animals to own. As my horse friend told me when we bought our 2 from her "The cheapest thing you'll ever do with a horse if buy it. After that it's the feeding, vetting, foot trimming, and on and on."

 

Many people don't get that. Horses are picky about their food, eat way more than anyone would think, and won't eat just anything green.

 

But, I dont think its just race horses. I mean, look at the problems in the Tennessee Walking industry that keep getting brought up each year. I wonder if the same things occur when other animals are bred for show. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just as common in dog showing, etc.

 

 

I totally agree.  It's more a problem of over-breeding and under-thinking.

 

And your post reminded me of an old cowboy saying:  Ain't nothing so expensive a free horse.  (The old gelding was a gift; he was my daughter's old lesson horse.  Last year we built a new barn mostly because the old guy needed more shelter and less competition for food during the winter. I may never be able to afford replacing my old Sequoia.  :huh: )

[dirty ethel rackham]

Horse racing isn't all glamor and roses.  We see those beautiful horses on TV with those high profile races.  And we might remember a winning horse every few years.  But that race includes a lot of horses.  Not all those horses will be sought after ($$) for breeding.  The winners, yeah.  The last few placers, not really.  But there is a whole other side ... there are hundreds of racing venues across the US.  Gambling on horse racing is a huge business, both legit and illegal.  And these venues are plagued with problems relating to mistreatment, health,etc. We've been hearing about problems at Arlington and Balmoral for years.   There were 33 horse deaths at racing venues in IL alone last year. 

[creekland]

From the article: "Of 136 horses there [at a popular auction] that day, Russek [a horse trainer, breeder, and rescuer] estimated at least 20 were thoroughbreds. She was able to positively identify six as ex-racehorses by their tattoos -- found on the underside of every thoroughbred racehorse's lip. 

 

I think this pretty much proves that it's definitely not just racing if less than one sixth at this auction were even thoroughbreds, considering many at this auction head to slaughter.  

 

But it also shows that eliminating slaughter doesn't "end" the problem (as our country found out when it tried to do so).  If just 50 of these horses were to go to slaughter that week, then where are they to go without slaughter?  There already aren't homes for them, so do we turn them loose?  If so, where?  Do we invest in money just to put them down?  That means another 50 fill the quota these were "saved" from and these 50 died anyway.  There's no reason to think these 50 were more worthy than those others.  Odds would put them less worthy since buyers have passed them up already.

 

And of course, it's awfully presumptuous of us to try to dictate the eating habits of the world - or even to insist that our own carnivores (cats, etc) should be eating beef or chicken (or corn!) instead of horses.

 

But then to blame racing for the problem when racing appears to have provided 6 of 136 to this auction?

[creekland]

ps  In my younger days I've been at that auction - and others - buying some who showed promise and giving them better lives.  Heading to an auction is not necessarily a death sentence for an equine.  I wasn't the only one bidding on those I brought home and only a handful of times did I outbid the kill buyer.  Horse folks look for bargains too and auctions are good places to find them IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT.  They're a good place to end up with an equine that can hurt you or cost you a ton in vet bills if you don't.

[MercyA]

But then to blame racing for the problem when racing appears to have provided 6 of 136 to this auction?

 

I never said or meant to imply that all the horses being sold for slaughter were former racehorses. I am concerned about the fact that according to the Post article, 2/3 of racehorses coming off the track are euthanized, abandoned, or slaughtered. It seems like a terrible fate for horses who spent their lives entertaining people, with many being drugged, abused, and injured in the process.

[Tsuga]

I never said or meant to imply that all the horses being sold for slaughter were former racehorses. I am concerned about the fact that according to the Post article, 2/3 of racehorses coming off the track are euthanized, abandoned, or slaughtered. It seems like a terrible fate for horses who spent their lives entertaining people, with many being drugged, abused, and injured in the process.

 

Certainly there need to be radical changes in the laws about how animals are bought and sold and raised.

 

We eat animals in our family and we own pets. So I'm not going to get on a high horse (no pun intended) and judge people for their utilitarian enjoyment of animals.

 

Nonetheless more rules and regulations about pet and animal ownership, as a substitute for the longstanding traditional laws and community oversight that no longer exists, would be in my opinion very welcome.

 

However some people will see that as an encroachment on their "freedom".

[KungFuPanda]

Elephants leaving the circus. Animals leaving the racetracks. We seem to be on a slow but steady path.

[Paula in MS]

Even more disturbing is the number of eventers that have been killed in the past few months.  It's even more tragic when it's the riders who are dying.  It is senseless.

[Tsuga]

Actually, sheep don't mind being sheared. The gathering and having their lambs pulled off for a few hours is stressful, but they go into a sort of zen-like state when flopped on their fannies. It's funny to watch them shake their heads when we released. "Wait. What just happened? Where am I? WHO am I?" And they trot off, get their lambs, and dinner. 

 

Yes, that was my point. They don't love it but it's not awful. Horses love to run and if the owner or breeder is a kind person, the horse may enjoy many parts of a racing life. 

 

I was trying to give examples that were mildly stressful and/or uncomfortable but acceptable--to me, at least. Crating is not super fun for most dogs, but for breeds that already exist, that are tiny, it's the safest way to transport them in a car. Just as an example.

 

I mean there are parts of my life I don't enjoy either, LOL.

[Bluegoat]

Ditto.  I love dog racing too, but wish certain participants in it would leave the sport.

 

Most of these animals love what they do - it shows.  Those that don't never really make it to the track and in my youth I worked at a barn that gave many of those decent careers showing.  We took a couple off the track (flat or chasers) too.

 

Sports can be hard on bodies - human or animal.  That's part of life.  It doesn't mean those who love what they are doing need to stop or that people ought to quit watching sports.

 

I've never, ever been against horse slaughter.  It's a good way to put to use the bodies of equines without homes - far better than euthanizing them and letting others get raised for food instead.  It's not like we're going to stop folks (or critters) from eating horses.  They're a prey animal that many opt to eat, not unlike beef.

 

If some idiot athelete wants to ruin his joints, screw up his systems with drugs, or rattle his brain, I can't get worked up over it, though I don't think it is "sport" it is ruining his body for money, entertainment of others or praise. 

 

If someone does it because they feel pressured into it by the culture and demand of a sport they have spent years in, I might feel rather sorry for them, but again there is a choice and level of awareness involved unless they are kids.  It still isn't about sport though.

 

Animals may well love to run, or compete in some way, and work with humans.  But events that predictably ruin their bodies through stress, use of performance drugs, and regular injuries, aren't about either sport or the enjoyment of the animal or its natural function.  It is about entertainment and making money for people, or feeding their egos.  It's abuse just like it would be if we were talking about some underage gymnast.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Bluegoat]

Certainly there need to be radical changes in the laws about how animals are bought and sold and raised.

 

We eat animals in our family and we own pets. So I'm not going to get on a high horse (no pun intended) and judge people for their utilitarian enjoyment of animals.

 

Nonetheless more rules and regulations about pet and animal ownership, as a substitute for the longstanding traditional laws and community oversight that no longer exists, would be in my opinion very welcome.

 

However some people will see that as an encroachment on their "freedom".

 

I have no problem with eating meat.  I have some significant issues with factory farming practices.  I think meat eating is something where we need to treat the animals involved well and be very concious of what we are doing - killing for our sustenance.  In fact, that's why I don't particularly support ethical vegetarianism - I think we need to realize that our lives depend on us participating in an ecosystem that includes death.

 

I think that is really different than treating animals as if they are disposable for our entertainment, or abusing them to make that entertainment more exciting.  Whenever animal entertainment starts to get into big money, culling the imperfect becomes a factor. 

 

I don't think the laws against horse slaughter in the US have done horses any favours, and I don't actually have a problem with eating horses.  But that isn't really what this is about IMO.

[hornblower]

I think it's horrible.

I'm with the ethical vegans though so it's probably not surprising....

[Guest]

 

Animals may well love to run, or compete in some way, and work with humans.  But events that predictably ruin their bodies through stress, use of performance drugs, and regular injuries, aren't about either sport or the enjoyment of the animal or its natural function.  It is about entertainment and making money for people, or feeding their egos.  It's abuse just like it would be if we were talking about some underage gymnast.

 

I can only speak for myself here- but horse racing for my family was never about money. That is basically the joke of all of it. We never made any off of it. We LOST money I'm sure if I was to go back and call my dad. The free horse comment up thread was very true. I'm not sure it was about ego or entertainment for us either. It was something we LOVED.  I was born loving horses, but my Dad really nurtured that love into something more. He taught me how to care for them, how to watch the personalities, how to gauge how a horse was going to run that day simply by its attitude in the morning. He taught me how to pick a horse at auction, how to give shots, how to deal with colic, all sorts of things. We took care of our animals. We cherished our animals. It was quite simply, a love affair with the sport. He still loves it- but as with anything there is a lot of other things beyond the horses within it and after a while you get tired. That doesn't take away the love of it though. 

 

I think if you strip the humanity out of anything it's easy to take a clinical look at it and decry it all as evil. But it's not. It's not that black and white. Watching something you pick out at an auction and nurture and train and spend day after day with, dealing with trainers, dealing with jockeys and barns and everything else, then run its heart out and win (or even finish well), is a feeling I can't quite capture here in words. It would sound too cheesy. And no, you definitely don't always have winners, and that is part of the risk. But horse racing, for true lovers of the horses, it's not easily summed up like that- anymore than any other sport involving people or animals. Everything that seems to involve people, at some point has a seedy side. And yes, things to help protect the parties involved are sometimes necessary. But I really hate to see an entire sport pushed aside because there are some immoral people involved. Name a sport that isn't, whether it involves people or animals? I don't really see how it's any different than a breeder of show dogs, or sport dogs or anything else. Does that mean we shouldn't own dogs anymore, because someone will do something bad? 

[hornblower]

 Does that mean we shouldn't own dogs anymore, because someone will do something bad? 

just fwiw, some people do argue that. Sometimes people aren't aware that there is a pretty respected group of people in ethics, philosophy & law which does come to that conclusion. (see for eg. Peter Singer, current bioethics professor at Princeton; also Gary Francione, professor of law at Rutgers.) 

 

I'm not quite there but I'm also increasingly uncomfortable with 'ownership' of animals. Companionship, caretaking, yes;  but ownership seems increasingly not right to me. 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by hornblower

[obsidian]

Even more disturbing is the number of eventers that have been killed in the past few months.  It's even more tragic when it's the riders who are dying.  It is senseless.

 

While also horrible, this is a different issue, I think. The riders can choose to compete or not; horses don't have the same choice.

[Guest]

just fwiw, some people do argue that. Sometimes people aren't aware that there is a pretty respected group of people in ethics, philosophy & law which does come to that conclusion. (see for eg. Peter Singer, current bioethics professor at Princeton; also Gary Francione, professor of law at Rutgers.) 

 

I'm not quite there but I'm also increasingly uncomfortable with 'ownership' of animals. Companionship, caretaking, yes;  but ownership seems increasingly not right to me. 

 

 

I have honestly only read a very small amount on the thinking behind this. But what I have seen is truly just not something I can wrap my head around. I believe that animals should be well cared for, treated with respect, etc., but when a society hits a point where more people can get behind the rights of animals than the rights of mistreated children, or humans in general, I have to wonder where the priorities are. I remember the outcry when BlackFish came out and how it truly dominated news cycles on and off. People were outraged, boycotted SeaWorld, I mean it was definitely an impressive about face. They demanded change and change has come rather quickly in light of the laws surrounding it. The business model had to yield. But when it comes out that the UN Peacekeepers were over in Africa raping children in exchange for food, it barely got any coverage and there certainly weren't people standing around in various states boycotting anything, much less protesting. Where were the outraged stage acts then? To me the difference in priorities simply don't make sense. I love animals, and I don't want to see them harmed, but we aren't even at a point where we can ensure human rights. I know just because we are working on one doesn't mean we can't work on the other, but I would love to see people get as up in arms about mistreated and abused children as they do about the animal outcry of the week. 

[hornblower]

 I know just because we are working on one doesn't mean we can't work on the other, but I would love to see people get as up in arms about mistreated and abused children as they do about the animal outcry of the week. 

I don't really know many people in animal rights who aren't also deeply involved in human rights. Like you point out, it's not an either / or.  

 

I think the problem you're identifying is a NEITHER. There is a disturbing group of people who care about nothing & nobody other than themselves & their profits & their comfort.  

 

Certain causes get more press at any given time. That's just how it is. Advocate for the causes you believe in is pretty much the most important thing one can do.

 

The thing you're talking about has a name, btw. It's called "whataboutism"

[Guest]

I don't really know many people in animal rights who aren't also deeply involved in human rights. Like you point out, it's not an either / or.  

 

I think the problem you're identifying is a NEITHER. There is a disturbing group of people who care about nothing & nobody other than themselves & their profits & their comfort.  

 

Certain causes get more press at any given time. That's just how it is. Advocate for the causes you believe in is pretty much the most important thing one can do.

 

The thing you're talking about has a name, btw. It's called "whataboutism"

 

Maybe it's because it's easier to do something, in theory, about animal abuse. You can boycott a venue, you can change your eating habits to not support CAFO's, not attend races or circuses or whatever.....it's a more basic, easily doable change. Human rights require a bit more on the action front because you're not influencing a corporation (which seem to fall quite easily to public pressure with the advent of social media), you're trying to influence some level of governmental body which is always a bit trickier. 

[Guest]

BTW-  my husband just walked by and asked me what I was '"Hiving" about tonight. When I told him he said "ya'll really do talk about everything, don't you?" :) 

[hornblower]

There is considerable overlap in some of the issues. Many vegan & animal rights activists are also involved for example in promoting farm worker's rights, & campaigns such as child-labour free chocolate, plus battling the scarcity of healthy food choices for marginalized groups which leads to detrimental health effects for these groups.  

[Tsuga]

If some idiot athelete wants to ruin his joints, screw up his systems with drugs, or rattle his brain, I can't get worked up over it, though I don't think it is "sport" it is ruining his body for money, entertainment of others or praise. 

 

 

In my opinion, you grossly underestimate the amount of coercion, dishonestly and manipulation that can occur in pro sports and competitive sports, in which trainers and other people that handle athletes are paid to make those athletes perform--and athletes are under contract and cannot easily get out of them. Some of those athletes have no other means to support themselves.

 

I would not say that people are in the same position as horses, but I do think that what is going on in the NFL with concussions is a perfect example of how people with power can abuse others for sport, while at the same time claiming to do a lot for the athletes.

 

Another example is the East German government's treatment of its women swimmers. I saw a documentary--it was heartbreaking. To this DAY some of those women are in denial, but 100% of them said, "We were told it was vitamins. We were told it was Soviet and German engineering and science improving nutrition, and to us at the time, it seemed plausible. We knew our bodies were changing but we were told it was our scientifically designed routines."

 

So sad. :(

 

I'm not saying that all or even most athletes don't know, but I do think that what I have heard is that human doping is not like "some idiot athlete wants to ruin his joints" or "screw up his systems with drugs".

 

I find it concerning that you can't get worked up about it. I know many people whose calling in life is athletics. They are living in a world in which performing without drugs is increasingly difficult. It's not a simple choice for them. They can't just say, 'No prob, I'll just do accounting. I'm also good at that!' Like this is THEIR THING. They aren't nearly as good at anything else, and one guy I know just barely made it through high school. True, he could have used more support but the point is he was never going to be a teacher, or an accountant. But he is a fantastic athlete. National level.