Calling experienced homeschoolers...writing and history questions!

[Lfwfv]

Hi all,

 

I have read TWTM and loved it, and am so excited about starting my little ones in homeschool soon. That's right, I have little ones...PreK in fact :) I am here on the high school board because I need help from experienced moms who have been-there-and-done-that. I am trying desperately to map out a "possible" plan for K-12. I know, i know, it will likely change, but I am the type that needs to understand how it might be possible for me to flesh out the ideas in TWTM to work for me. I loved the grammar school recommendations, and it all seemed very doable, but middle school seemed a little scary, and high school was just waaaaay to vague for me to feel comfortable with.

 

I am hoping to follow the history cycle laid out in TWTM, and was thinking of using MOH1 (we are conservative Christians and I have a few problems with SOTW1) using only the text and maybe some notebook pages, followed by SOTW 2,3, and 4 for the grammar years, and possibly dialectic stage too. Supplemented with extra reading, of course. And then, follow MOH 1-4 through the high school years. Does this seem reasonable? What do people use for government/economics, and does that become a summer project, or do you do that on top of TWTM history stuff?

 

For writing...oh goodness....I am so confused!!! I chose Rod and Staff English and love the look of it. I love the simplicity and rigor. But, I read everywhere that it's not sufficient for composition. Is this true? I looked at IEW and hate it! I don't like the parent-intensive aspect of it, and I honestly value structure and building skills from the ground up over style. I don't really like their key-word-outline and prefer a more "traditional" outline approach. I work part-time, we are thinking of having another baby, and know I would really love something that is more clearly laid out for me (and that is less parent-intensive).

 

I love the look of WWE/WWS and was thinking of using that to supplement Rod and Staff. Would that work well? If the boys were to complete WWS3, what skills would they have? Would they be able to write essays? Would they be able to analyze literature at all?

 

The big confusion I'm having is this: how do I get my kids ready to write essays (all different types), and to analyze literature by eighth grade? For K-8, I think I am ok with the idea of reading great a lot of great literature, discussing it, and doing some notebook pages (narration, and then outlines), but for high school, I want something more formal. I love the look of Excellence in Literature for grades 8-12, but I don't want to use IEW, WttW (unless you can do this without having done IEW first), or Teaching the Classics. I know people swear by them, but I'm being honest with myself that they just don't look right for us. Can I expect my boys to be ready to write essays for Excellence in Literature (and IEW course) in 8th grade having completed only R&S grade 7 or 8 at that point, and WWE/WWS (maybe only level 2 at that point, depending on their ability?), or will I need a writing supplement? What about lit analysis skills? Does R&S and WWE/WWS cover that, or will I need to supplement? Can anybody suggest a non-IEW path that would enable my boys to write well-constructed essays by 8th grade?

 

Thank you all so much for putting up with my anxiety-induced ramblings, and for any and all experience/advice you can pass on to this excited-but-overwhelmed homeschool mama!

Tanya

 

 

[Garga]

I can't really help you with your specific questions, but I did want to address how high school seems vague. It does! There are just so many different aspects to it. But by the time you get there, in 9 or 10 years, you'll be an old pro at picking out curric that works for you. Just some encouragement! Don't worry too, too much about high school.

 

I understand your need to map things out. It's good to know where you're going and have some sort of general framework in place. Know that there's a 100% chance that something you pick now will not work for you. I don't know a single homeschooler who hasn't had to ditch something that seemed promising, but wasn't. So, don't worry if your plans get revamped a few times.

 

I wish I could give feedback on the currics you asked about. I'm mostly responding just to say: Welcome to the boards!

Edited May 20, 2016 by Garga

[yvonne]

My oldest are only just finishing their second year of high school, so I can't speak to the best path in high school. Still feeling our way through it. 

 

I do think that doing Rod & Staff English and WWE/WWS is a really solid route. We used R&S 2-7 and I couldn't have found a better foundation for grammar. It was one of the best curriculum choices we made.  We also did most of the writing in R&S, but I wasn't sure it was enough. We did parts of WWE, a lot of WWS 1-2, and some of WWS 3. (WWS came out a little too late for us.)  If I had younger children coming up, I would absolutely do R&S 3-7 or 8 plus WWS 1-3, maybe some WWE. I know myself and I would burn out trying to do WWE 1-4 AND then WWS 1-3. I think maybe R&S's writing through 5th grade and then WWS for 6-8th might be enough.

 

 

Good luck with your planning!  I am totally with you on wanting a long term plan, even though I knew it would change. It does make the whole thing seem more doable and, at least for me, if I don't know where I'm aiming long term, I end up wasting time going in random circles. I looked at my plan at the end of every year and modified as needed. Just don't get bogged down looking for the one, perfect curriculum. It doesn't exist. There are multiple, equally good paths. It's the doing that matters most, not the planning.

 

Have fun!  Home schooling is such a wonderful adventure!

 

Yvonne

Edited May 20, 2016 by yvonne

[mom2att]

I know you want to map out a plan for K - 12 now, but there are so many intangibles and unknowns involved when it comes to planning for 10 years in the future, I advise you to just have general goals and an idea of how to get there rather than a specific curriculum plan.

 

For one thing, I can guarantee that what is available curriculum-wise when your children reach high school will be very different than what is available today. Sure, a lot of the same stuff will be out there, but with the number of homeschool families growing every day, new curricula is always being introduced. Any of us who have been at this awhile have seen trends come and go, have seen people hop on and off bandwagons based on what's new and exciting, and have witnessed the development of new curricula that we wish we could go back in time an have access to. New stuff comes out all the time--what is available as your children move through their homeschooling years may be vastly different than what is available today. Who knows--maybe you'll even develop something of your own! There's been more than one poster on these forums over the years who has done just that.

 

Second, you have to teach the kids you have, and it's really difficult impossible to determine what that will look like when they are teens based on what it looks like now when they are preschoolers. Plus, each of them will likely present differently as learners. I learned this lesson early on, when the Singapore Math books which were such a great fit for my oldest were a total bomb for my second child. In fact, I saved and kept all of the books my oldest had used, thinking I would follow the same plan for my middle child. It worked so well for her, why wouldn't it work for him?--because he's a different kid. His homeschooling has taken a very different path than hers, from kindergarten - high school. It's one of the beauties of homeschooling--tailoring instruction to each learner rather than being stuck with a certain curricula or plan just because it's what everyone else uses.

 

So in short, keep researching, keep learning, keep forging a path, and keep an open mind when the path doesn't lead where you thought it would. Focus on the big picture and don't worry about the details of the future.

 

And for your further research, read the articles posted here. SWB's knowledge and advice goes well beyond what is published in TWTM, and her articles in the link give more of a slice of life picture, a view of the practical application of the overarching goals presented in her book.

 

Best of luck in your homeschool journey. I started at the beginning like you, and I am so grateful for where homeschooling has taken our family.

 

ETA: In regard to writing, do not miss SWB's lectures titled "A Plan for Teaching Writing" found here. So worth the download price.

Edited May 20, 2016 by mom2att

[Carrie12345]

No specific advice other than to report that I, too, am a planner, and my dd's 9th grade year has pretty much NOTHING that I planned for back when she was in K, 1st, 4th, and even 8th grades.  Well, she'll have Saxon Math, but not the level I thought she would.

 

On WWS vs. IEW, without a doubt, WWS is much more parent intensive than IEW w/DVDs.

[freesia]

 

No specific advice other than to report that I, too, am a planner, and my dd's 9th grade year has pretty much NOTHING that I planned for back when she was in K, 1st, 4th, and even 8th grades. Well, she'll have Saxon Math, but not the level I thought she would.

 

On WWS vs. IEW, without a doubt, WWS is much more parent intensive than IEW w/DVDs.[/quote

]

I, too, spent lovely hours planning my firstborn child's high school when he was 4 and had it turn out very differently. Honestly, tenth grade looks different than I imagined in eighth grade. Enjoy it but don't let it stress you out even a little. There will be new curriculum to consider and who your child is will be more clear ( I thought Ds would be super motivated and driven and a STEM oriented extrovert-- turns out he's super laid back and much more humanities/communication oriented and an introvert).

 

But, for the record, you don't need IEW to do WttW or Excellence in Lit. But keep an open mind about IEW. It would suit your personality--building up piece by piece. Also, it has been immeasurably helpful for some who have children who struggle with writing.

 

Rod and Staff is excellent. You could teach the comp and then write another essay in the same style. That would be enough. The longer I've been at this, the more I realize that essays are a breeze if a child really knows how to write a strong paragraph and to think.

 

Enjoy this journey.

[G5052]

Nothing wrong with being a planner.

 

Just be REALLY, REALLY flexible. 

 

You really don't know until you get there, although it's fine to be thinking ahead.

 

I had a spreadsheet with basic plans for both of mine for years. Not details, just subjects and several choices for possible curriculum. I didn't spend a lot of time on it, just notes really. 

 

A lot of your planning will need to be done as you go though. Different learning preferences and your ways of teaching will be a major factor versus the content. Circumstances may also change. I was a straight WTM mom early on and had to go to more scripted materials as we went because I had to work more. We also ended up outsourcing more in high school than I expected.

 

I'm a big fan of IEW and actually make my living teaching with it (among other things). It worked very well with both of mine -- one was an eager writer who needed structure and the other had no ideas. Go figure. 

 

BOTTOM LINE -- Jot down some plans, but get them literate and doing basic math first. For me at least, that was really difficult. You'll learn a lot about yourself and your students.

 

I was glad that I had worked out multiple options as we went because it made it easier to redirect. As an example, I had a provider in mind for high school math should we need it. And indeed, last summer it became apparent that outsourcing math was needed. So I was able to quickly line that up.

[Lfwfv]

Wow, thank you all so much for the encouragement, advice, and experience you shared! I appreciate it very much :)

 

Kinsa, can I ask if you also followed the WTM narrative/notebook suggestions for history and science with your kids? Did you follow a specific lit curriculum for high school, or study the Great Books on your own with your kids as WTM suggests?

 

I am definitely not locking down a path at this point, but I want to have some options in my mind, and to know how the different pieces could/might fit together. Originally, I thought we would go with Veritas, but the more I look at it, the more I don't feel at peace with their path. I really like the simplicity and straight-forward path of the WTM overall...the focus on real books, and ani incremental approach to developing writing skills and analysis skills (rather than a lot of comprehension guides and text books)....something about it rings true to me. I am a professional violinist and teach violin as well (after Suzuki pedagogy training), and I get the incremental approach, the benefit of learning things step by step, learning grammar before focusing on expression etc.. Right now, I feel like I'm in the grammar stage of homeschooling: trying to find out as much information as possible, so I can get to the point where I can start organizing and forming opinions. I am just trying to get the vision of what Classical education would look like in our family, and envisioning different curriculum paths is part of that for me.

 

For those that are huge IEW proponents, do you really start it at K-2 level as they suggest? That seems far more parent-intensive than WWE/WWS to me...I could see how it's less intensive if you use it around the 5-7th grade level for the first time though...

 

thanks again!

Tanya

 

 

[freesia]

Originally it wasn't recommended until the end of second grade. You certainly don't need to start earlier. My oldest started at fifth grade with no problem. The others I started/ will start doing the early units at the end of second. It is actually based on the Suzuki method as Pudewa was a Suzuki instructor.

All writing instruction is going to be teacher intensive. The best progress is made when you are there to support when needed and then sit with your child to give feedback and revisions. IEW has been no more or less teacher intensive than anything I've used.(. At various times, various children have used WWS, Write Source, Lost Tools of Writing, tapestry 's Writing Aids) the only time I was hands off was a 6 week writing class.lol

[KeriJ]

We are only in WWS 1, but I have not found it to be very parent-intensive. We did wait until age 12 to start, so I am sure that is part of the reason.

[KeriJ]

I understand about not planning too early, but we are 1 year away from high school, and I would love to hear some more answers to some of these specific questions since I have wondered some of the same things. 😊

[Pistachio mom]

Hi Friend. I have used TWTM plan since the beginning. I now have a 9th grader, 4th grader, and 1st grader so we own so many books.  Each child is so different. There really are so many choices available with curriculum. Some of the things I am learning for long term plans:

 

Keep a big picture in mind. Frequently refer to your list of goals for growth for your children. It is good to remind one's self of these, it keeps the focus.

 

Learn how to teach. Ruth Beechick's books -  among others have been a huge help to me in the beginnine. The All About Reading and Spelling website is also great for tips and ideas.

 

I like the trivium. It is great to have a planned cycle. I have had to start my younger children in the middle of whatever cycle we were already on and things have worked out fine. I used TWTM lists of topics in the beginning with lots of library books. Later switched to Story of the World, Memoria History, Notgrass America the Beautiful combined with Beautiful Feet, and Veritas.

 

With math, teach for understanding using 3D objects. Invest in a base 10 set, unifix cubes, and/or attribute blocks. I use felt numbers combined with a base 10 set to teach place value. Comprehension more than performance of place value is huge for higher level math. Choose a curriculum that teaches more than one strategy for problem solving. (I like BJ Press for Math). There are lots of solid options.

 

You specifically mentioned writing.

 

For English, too many workbooks and fill in the blank pages make it hard to have time for real writing. Teach the writing process, not just writing by imitation and dictation. Many children need a mixed approach. Teach them how to organize their thoughts.  So, whether Rod and Staff, First Language Lessons, the Critical Thinking Company, Analytical Grammar...  supplement with a writing approach you can understand and implement. Books written for homeschooling specifically will give clear teaching procedures; while academic books from a national publisher will assume the teacher already has background. I choose homeschool publishers specifically for my harder subjects (science). Dianne Craft has some good writing materials on her website for teaching right brain learners. I also like the small Evan Moore books for teaching writing sentences, stories, paragraph, grammar work, etc. They are inexpensive and easy to implement with any program. This next year, I am trying out some materials from Sharon Watson's "Jump In" and "The Power in Your Hands." 

 

Take time to just learn and read to find out what you like. As you get to know your child in your teaching situation, you will learn what kinds of activities will work for him/her. I like to check out library books about teaching language arts to learn these things. It has been a huge help to me in learning to teach . The Word of God reminds us that there are ways to get wisdom: pray and ask for it, search and dig for it, and experience will help you learn from the past.

 

If you teach the primary grades to the best of your ability. You will be ready for the upper grades when you and your child get there. Be encouraged. God can give you strength and knowledge to do this. :)

 

 

[laughing lioness]

I'm not sure why SOTW would not be a good fit. We are conservative Christians and love SOTW, HOTW and Hx of Science. I say that only to ask you to re-consider. SOTW is a sweeping overview of world hisotry that will give your kids an amazing scope of understanding. Throw in memorizing a timeline and you are set. 

Also, Roman Roads Media Old Western Culture is terrific! 

For Government, I would recommend TeenPact, as well as Richard Mayberry books (Whatever Happened to Penny Candy, et al.). They also have an econ book= Classical Conversations Challenge I does an excellent job of government/econ. MUS And Notgrass both have Econ now, too. Dave Ramsey has a good personal finance for youth. 

 

You will find as you homeschool resources, books, curriculum that are simply amazing (and probably not yet published)!  

 

If you are going to use WWE / WWS- check out First Language Lessons. Much more "vibrant" than R & S (though I love their grammar, too). 

Check out Lost Tools of Writing by Circe Institue. LOVE it!!! BEST writing program- super straightforward. 

For LIt analysis begin by reading outloud and narrating and discussing. Simple, effective and inexpensive. 

[EKS]

Instead of planning, for your own mental health, if I were you I'd consider what you're doing right now to be research.  If there is one thing I've learned in 13 years of homeschooling, it's that my plans rarely play out the way I think they will.  All of my research, however, has been extremely valuable.

 

That said, I highly recommend focusing on reading first.  The sooner your kids read well the smoother things will be.  Of course, not all kids read well early (my older son did not), so you need to take that in stride.  Next in priority would be basic number stuff followed closely by handwriting and basic spelling. 

 

Once reading is going well and your student is reading fluently on maybe a second grade level, you will probably want to add in a gentle grammar program.  I found Grammar Island (and associated materials) to be perfect for this as it focuses on the basics and kids like the story aspect.  At the same time, you could have your student start to write sentences.  If that seems too easy, keep in mind that many adults have trouble writing a coherent sentence!

 

For history, what worked here was a good spine with lots of engaging supplemental reading.  I never once made my kids memorize anything or gave them a test.  Just reading, talking, and some writing.  I would say that how we did history was my biggest success as a homeschooler.

 

So research and tentative planning is great, but you need to be flexible enough to abandon your plans and regroup.  The thing is that all that research makes changing direction much, much easier.

 

 

 

[Garga]

I use OneNote to keep track of "Future Curriculum". I started it about 2 years ago when my oldest was in 6th grade. If you know how OneNote works, I have tabs across the top for each grade, then within the tab for each grade I have tabs down the side for each subject. So, if I hear about a good Chemistry program, I go to the "10th grade" tab on the top and the "Chemistry" tab on the side and put in information about that program. The information is usually links from here, or emails from a 'homeschool to college' yahoo group I belong to.

 

It's been very helpful as I've been planning 9th grade this year. Instead of trying to come up with a biology program, for example, out of the blue I was able to read through all the links I'd been saving for the past two years and then narrow it down to one choice.

 

I'll tell you, even with all the planning, it took me a solid 8 hours of work to narrow down biology-- It took another 7 hours to plan English. And 7 for history. For comparison, my rising 6th grader, I made all his plans for 6 subjects in 6 hours for everything. High school is a challenge to plan and I'm entering my 10th year of homeschooling. Without having all the notes I'd collected, it would have taken even longer to find everything I needed. (Am I the only one who takes that long to plan??)

 

My point is, that something like OneNote or whatever planning system you like, would be very helpful to you. You're a planner and you might as well gather any information you get starting now. It really helps in the future.

 

As others have said, there have been a number of times in this 10 year journey that I was so sure I knew where we'd be going, and it turned out not to work for my kids that way At All. I am a reader. It's a defining characteristic of me. And my kids aren't. My oldest is just starting to lightly enjoy reading (going into 9th now), and my youngest still insists he hates reading (going into 6th). I honestly imagined us sitting around reading books silently together and discussing them. But...didn't happen. Probably never will. Le sigh.

 

Anyway...have fun with your planning! Take lots of notes for the future. Be ready to ditch your plans. Which is why you need notes. So that when Plan A doesn't work, you have already gathered info that can be turned into Plan B.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Garga

[Pistachio mom]

Hi again Tanya, this is a fascinating threat. I realize I missed something about your original question. Specifically about teaching the classics. If you are wondering if the great books path to teaching literature is realistic, it really is. Everyone will have their own way to personalize the approach. Obviously, teach phonics and reading first, but to add in read alouds of abridged versions of the great books that correlate with your history era. Picture book style library books from the fairy tale / folk tale section of the library were our start. When my children were reading about 2nd to 3rd grade level, we read lots of abridged classics and Shakespeare. then easier classics. Robin Hood, King Authur, Arabian Nights.... Famous Men of Greece/Rome/Middle Ages/Modern Age also good - mixed in with age appropriate historical fiction of the same era. By the time my oldest daughter is in 9th grade, now she is excited to read unabridged translations of Gilgamesh, Homer, Herodotus, Plutarch, etc.  She is already familiar with the plot and story, now just the language and details of the originals. This is the first year we have done Veritas for history/literature. We like it, but I do make adaptions for my younger daughter as it tends to be accelerated in reading levels. I needed my highschool student to have a teacher with lectures and instruction to keep her on track while I am teaching long division to one sibling, and phonics to the other one. Another thing about studying from the great books approach, is that you start to see certain patterns repeated in the literature of various world cultures such as stories of creation, giants/monsters, flood, a religion with a twist of a woman, man, and a baby that is the reincarnation of his father. Studying with a great books list has been such a blessing to my family! Christine Miller's book All Through the Ages is a History through Literature Guide with 300+ pages of lists of titles that relate to specific eras of history arranged to reading levels.

 

In the past, I used catalogs from conventions to help me build my reading list: My Father's World, Sonlight, Veritas, Memoria, and the Tapestry of Grace website. Reading lists from qualified educators abound on the internet. The lists in the Well Trained Mind were my main spine. The book Invitation to the Classics was a big help to me in creating a middle school literature curriculum based on age appropriate adaptions and select unabridged sections of the great books. The Cathy Duffy website with reviews is also a source of information, as well as Home School Buyer's Coop in checking about affordable options. Lee Binz' Homescholar website has multiple articles on building quality courses of study on whatever budget a family has at the time.

 

Like how Suzuki approach includes more than just technique for beginners - but a love for real music. Your early years in homeschooling are years for laying a foundation of a love and excitement of learning, and good academic skills to build on in future years. Good luck in your research!

Edited May 20, 2016 by Pistachio mom

[HS Mom in NC]

I get why some people plan it out before they start knowing they'll make changes along the way.  It's a personality thing. I also recommend people do it a year or two after they start homeschooling because sometimes people are caught off guard when  "do the next thing" and "work at your own pace" has their child far enough behind in one subject or another and they're unprepared for SAT, ACT type testing in high school.  That's not always the case, but better to be on top of it before hand than scrambling at the last minute cramming in writing and math skills that will be covered on the test.

I'm really surprised to hear a conservative Christian would take issue with SOTW 1.  What exactly is the issue?  A lot of conservative  Christians like me have no issue at all with SOTW 1. We've just finished SOTW 4 with my youngest, so it's been a while, but I'm racking my brain for how it could be a problem.  Do tell.

We only did WWS 1 with my older two because the others weren't published it.  How is it teacher intensive?  It's written directly to the student and if a student is stuck the teacher guide has an entire list of pre-done questions for each assignment to ask the student to get them through the thought process. Then there's a rubric for checking the finished assignment.  So again, I have no idea what people mean by it being teacher intensive.  I went to the IEW local training for a weekend and watched those awful videos with Padewa and I would say WWS is far less teacher intensive. It also teaches very specific types of academic writing in a very systematic, detailed way.

[Colleen in NS]

You sound just like I was back when I was getting started homeschooling!!  I loved reading your post and seeing your enthusiasm.

 

Hi all,

 

I have read TWTM and loved it, and am so excited about starting my little ones in homeschool soon. That's right, I have little ones...PreK in fact :) I am here on the high school board because I need help from experienced moms who have been-there-and-done-that. I am trying desperately to map out a "possible" plan for K-12. I know, i know, it will likely change, but I am the type that needs to understand how it might be possible for me to flesh out the ideas in TWTM to work for me. I loved the grammar school recommendations, and it all seemed very doable, but middle school seemed a little scary, and high school was just waaaaay to vague for me to feel comfortable with.  I think most of us are like this at the beginning!  You can't see through the unknown.  But it all becomes clear when you reach each stage because you are growing as an educator and as a parent while your kids are growing.  You'll be fine.

 

I am hoping to follow the history cycle laid out in TWTM, and was thinking of using MOH1 (we are conservative Christians and I have a few problems with SOTW1) using only the text and maybe some notebook pages, followed by SOTW 2,3, and 4 for the grammar years, and possibly dialectic stage too. Supplemented with extra reading, of course. And then, follow MOH 1-4 through the high school years. Does this seem reasonable? What do people use for government/economics, and does that become a summer project, or do you do that on top of TWTM history stuff?

 

For writing...oh goodness....I am so confused!!! I chose Rod and Staff English and love the look of it. I love the simplicity and rigor. But, I read everywhere that it's not sufficient for composition. Is this true?   In my opinion, yes.  We used R&S for grammar lessons only.  We used it all the way to level 10 (we combined 9 and 10 into a year, because only half of each of those two books were grammar.)  The composition lessons in R&S are fine, but they are sporadic. I liked the step-by-step and day-by-day detailedness of WWE and WWS MUCH better.  They also helped me better understand how to plan writing assignements that weren't in the writing curriculum books.  I looked at IEW and hate it! I don't like the parent-intensive aspect of it, and I honestly value structure and building skills from the ground up over style. I don't really like their key-word-outline and prefer a more "traditional" outline approach. I work part-time, we are thinking of having another baby, and know I would really love something that is more clearly laid out for me (and that is less parent-intensive).  WWE and WWS are parent-intensive in one way, but in a way that lets your students be more independent and therefore, you, too.  I don't know how to explain this better.  :D

 

I love the look of WWE/WWS and was thinking of using that to supplement Rod and Staff. Would that work well? If the boys were to complete WWS3, what skills would they have? Would they be able to write essays? Would they be able to analyze literature at all?  Yes, and yes.  Also, check out the WWS product descriptions at Peace Hill Press (now the Well-Trained Mind Press, apparently) - you'll find many of the skills listed.

 

The big confusion I'm having is this: how do I get my kids ready to write essays (all different types), and to analyze literature by eighth grade? For K-8, I think I am ok with the idea of reading great a lot of great literature, discussing it, and doing some notebook pages (narration, and then outlines), but for high school, I want something more formal. I love the look of Excellence in Literature for grades 8-12, but I don't want to use IEW, WttW (unless you can do this without having done IEW first), or Teaching the Classics. I know people swear by them, but I'm being honest with myself that they just don't look right for us. Can I expect my boys to be ready to write essays for Excellence in Literature (and IEW course) in 8th grade having completed only R&S grade 7 or 8 at that point, and WWE/WWS (maybe only level 2 at that point, depending on their ability?), or will I need a writing supplement? I would finish at least R&S level 8 grammar and WWS 3 before embarking on a higher-level writing course.  WWS will prepare them very well for rhetoric courses.  What about lit analysis skills? Does R&S and WWE/WWS cover that, or will I need to supplement? Can anybody suggest a non-IEW path that would enable my boys to write well-constructed essays by 8th grade?   R&S through level 8, WWE, and WWS 3 will do this.  WWS also gives students plenty of practice in coming up with their own topics and using the skills taught throughout the levels.  They will be prepared to write well-constructed essays.  They will be prepared to learn rhetoric skills and be able to use those rhetoric skills within the composition construction skills they learned in WWS.

 

Thank you all so much for putting up with my anxiety-induced ramblings, and for any and all experience/advice you can pass on to this excited-but-overwhelmed homeschool mama!

Tanya

 

 

Edited May 20, 2016 by Colleen in NS

[Guest]

First I want to say welcome! Then I would like to add two things. One- I too was an IEW skeptic. I had heard it was too forumulaic and to be honest the DVD teacher series intimidated me. I enrolled my dd in a writing course with our homeschool group this past year because I was struggling with how to guide her writing at an age appropriate standard- I tended to have too high of expectations and I realized that. The class used IEW and it was a huge success. I went ahead and ordered TWSS and SWI and I am now about the biggest IEW convert there has ever been, along with a huge fan of Andrew Pudewa in general. I am even now checking out the Suzuki system for my kids' music lessons because all of this makes SENSE. The system just works. So, I would give it a fair look before you say never. Maybe listen to some of his talks or the IEW podcast. That being said- you have time. (But their PAL reading system is also wonderful ;) )

 

Lastly, I would highly encourage you to read Story of the World yourself. The book isn't expensive and I am not sure why anyone would list it as offensive. I know some controlling conference people had a bone to pick with Susan a while back and started on a baseless smear campaign. I hope nothing like that is influencing you. I credit SOTW with turning both my daughter and myself into history lovers. I will honestly say I got more from SOTW than I did in my high school or college history classes simply because it was interesting and did not make my eyes glaze over. I actually retained it and went on to read Susan's other history books and haven't stopped there. My daughter went from despising "social studies" to inhaling history from the first SOTW book to now starting high school and going back to the cycle again with Ancient history (by her request). I credit SOTW and living books with that 180. Just read one before you dismiss it. They're truly well done.

[Lfwfv]

Wow again, awesome info here! thank you!!

 

I just started listening to SWB's mp3 lectures on Writing with ease and I am sold. The comments about IEW and "dress-ups" not being developmentally appropriate put into words my exact unease with the program. I did know Pudewa was a Suzuki teacher, but different teachers emphasize different things, and I know for me, it is not the right fit. In my heart, I know I am not sold on the methodology. I am not against parent-involvement...I just want a clear path laid out for me. And it needs to make sense to me. I want my kids to write clearly and concisely and correctly, not "fancily". I care more about content and organization than "style" and I agree with SWB that style can come later (and that "good" style is being clear and concise). I know IEW works for some, but I know it wouldn't fit with my style. Thank you to those who helped me understand what WWE and WWS would cover. I am really sold and excited to try it.

My 3.5 year old is 3/4 of the way through Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons, and we are working through Bob Books and Phonics Pathways after this. We read a ton, and we are starting on easy K math concepts (as described in TWTM), so I know those are definitely the priorities. I have R&S lined up to try for grammar and spelling at this point, so I will start there and make course adjustments if/when needed.

 

Love the ideas about history, and I have ordered the SOTW 1 to look at, because I hate the narration style of MOH and would love if SOTW would fit our beliefs. The reason I was leaning away from it was because I have heard that it was confusing that SWB describes the Bible stories as somewhat the same as "myths" and I thought I read something about one or two instances of other Biblical inconsistencies. I am going to look at it, and if I decide it's minor and something I can adjust if needed, I think we will try it out. I love the samples I've read online. Ir seems like between SOTW and WWE, I would also get some ideas to help me guide narration exercises in history and science too.

 

I am thinking I need to read the Well-educated mind too, and get myself on a path of looking into the Great Books myself so I can slowly start building familiarity (and reducing fear, ha!).

 

I am encouraged to learn more about what this journey could look like for us. I am so grateful for all the advice and the great links and resources you have all directed me to. Thank you!!!!

 

Tanya

[Liza Q]

I planned fairly far ahead with my children and I actually used the high school plan I developed while my oldest were 2nd/K. But my plan was more like - 8th grade - finish grammar. 10th grade - add government as a 1-semester elective to wherever we are in the WTM. 

 

But few of the curriculum/programs/books I actually used were published when I was first planning. Analytical Grammar, Spectrum Chemistry, and SWB's History of the Ancient World were not things I could have chosen in advance but they worked very well for our family.

 

So. I recommend that you get to know how your children learn and refine your homeschool philosophy while researching and reading reviews. Like someone upthread mentioned, the time we spend researching is very valuable!

[HS Mom in NC]

 

 

Ir seems like between SOTW and WWE, I would also get some ideas to help me guide narration exercises in history and science too.

 

The Activty Books that go with SOTW (purchased separately) include questions for every reading that can be used in a narration.  Each chapter has several readings in it.  SOTW 4 has the questions and outlining activities included for when children are ready to transition out of oral narrations.

 

 

 

[MerryAtHope]

Hi!

 

You sound like me about 16 years ago. I too needed to "map things out" to get that "big picture" in my mind, even though I knew the details could change (and boy did they!)

 

So, as long as you hold onto any kind of long-term plan very lightly, it can help you get through this stage of "can I really do this." (And if I could just encourage you--you can! I wasn't so sure at some stages, and some stages downright intimidated me--but God walked with us every step of the way, and he will walk with you through this journey too.) My oldest just finished his first year in college, and my youngest is a senior this year--we've homeschooled all the way through. It's challenging at times, but such a blessing too.

 

The journey is like that old adage about eating an elephant though--do it one bite at a time!

 

We really enjoyed Mystery of History (and also Sonlight--I often combined those two resources. You can see some of my posts on what we did in the younger and older years on my blog under history.) Anyway, it would work out fine to use MOH 1 and move into SOTW for the youngers, and then go through MOH again when they are older. (That's similar to what we did--we used MOH 1 and 2, and finished with CHOW, combined with Sonlight for the younger years, then did some US history and Geography with Sonlight Cores D-F, then back to MOH combined with some upper SL cores, plus SL 100 for a high school US history).

 

We used Notgrass for government, and it was a regular class. We did two complete world history cycles, and 2 cycles through US history. My oldest did a semester of government, and a semester of Japanese history and culture in high school after he finished his World History cycle (started at an odd time) and US history. My youngest finished world history in 10th grade, has her year of US history in, and will do government in 12th grade. 

 

We didn't do economics in high school, but my kids used Whatever Happened to Penny Candy when they did Sonlight Core F, and then they also both did personal finance courses. 

 

If you like Rod and Staff--honestly, go with it for awhile. Likely after a few years, you'll want to switch anyway, and it's great for grammar. There are always people who say something is or isn't good enough--opinions vary so widely. If you like the look of something, trust that and try it out. Don't be afraid to make mistakes--you can't have the freedom to succeed unless you give yourself the freedom to fail too. And most of your choices will be successes. 

 

We liked Essentials in Writing by Matthew Stephens for composition. We didn't find that until my oldest was 9th. He struggled greatly in many LA areas, and no, he was not writing a good solid essay by high school. Over the course of time he did learn though. I like the short, incremental lessons in this program. I haven't used it in the elementary levels though--it seems some like it, and some think it needs more grammar. (Only levels 1-6 include grammar. I've used levels 7-11, and will use 12 next year). Kids all develop at different rates. Some will be ahead--or even way ahead. Some will be behind--or even way behind. Just keep working with them and encourage them at their level. You'll know as you're going along what you need, and you can look for good resources to meet their needs along the way.

 

BTW, by the time your kids are in high school, all new curriculum may be out! Just another reason to hold plans lightly.

 

My oldest did 4 years of history but 3 years of science in high school--and my dd will do the opposite. They have different strengths and interests than I thought they might when they were little--and we tailored things to their interests whenever possible (while still meeting a solid college-prep course of classes.)

 

As for analyzing literature--I really think I worried about this way more than was necessary or worthwhile. Reading and discussing books definitely works for the K-8 group (you might like a book called Deconstructing Penguins to help you with discussions). In high school, I never found a course I "loved" for literary analysis, though I tried a few. The thing I liked best was actually to download free Glencoe guides on an occasional book--and to continue our habit of discussing books as we always had. So, we did dig deeper into some books, but we also just continued to enjoy quality literature together. I think the latter is far more important as a life-long habit. (And I was an English major in college!)

 

Anyway...enjoy your kids and enjoy learning together, and walk this journey one step at a time. 

[Tita Gidge]

Another "planner personality" checking in!

 

I actually ended up using a lot of my early-day planning once mine got to high school, probably because I planned in general (rather than specific curricula).  I enjoy planning, I feel a strong drive to plan the bigger picture, and I re-evaluated my plans every year as we progressed through them (and as I learned more, especially here).  As others have mentioned, it's imperative to remain flexible.

 

Year 1 of homeschooling, I created a detailed K-5 plan (with specific curricula), a more general 6-8 plan (including specific styles - e.g., narrative history to outline, hands-on science - with suggested curricula that fit those styles), and then a very generic 9-12 plan (based on my local private and public schools' requirements).  As I learned more, researched more, and saw curricula 'in person' more, I amended my 12 year plan by eliminating curricula/providers or adding them (especially as new ones came out, and old ones disappeared) - with detailed notes, often printed from blogs, websites, and even fora posts. That last bit saved me as we progressed in years. As I added more kids and got older, it saved me the chore of re-researching on a regular basis.

 

Every June I look at the 12 year plan. I wrap up notes on our ending school year and start specific planning of our upcoming year (and more specific but still flexibly general, for the years beyond). I always keep my original plan in my notes because I like to see how closely or how far I've strayed from it, but that's planning geek stuff. LOL

[KeriJ]

Another "planner personality" checking in!

 

I actually ended up using a lot of my early-day planning once mine got to high school, probably because I planned in general (rather than specific curricula). I enjoy planning, I feel a strong drive to plan the bigger picture, and I re-evaluated my plans every year as we progressed through them (and as I learned more, especially here). As others have mentioned, it's imperative to remain flexible.

 

Year 1 of homeschooling, I created a detailed K-5 plan (with specific curricula), a more general 6-8 plan (including specific styles - e.g., narrative history to outline, hands-on science - with suggested curricula that fit those styles), and then a very generic 9-12 plan (based on my local private and public schools' requirements). As I learned more, researched more, and saw curricula 'in person' more, I amended my 12 year plan by eliminating curricula/providers or adding them (especially as new ones came out, and old ones disappeared) - with detailed notes, often printed from blogs, websites, and even fora posts. That last bit saved me as we progressed in years. As I added more kids and got older, it saved me the chore of re-researching on a regular basis.

 

Every June I look at the 12 year plan. I wrap up notes on our ending school year and start specific planning of our upcoming year (and more specific but still flexibly general, for the years beyond). I always keep my original plan in my notes because I like to see how closely or how far I've strayed from it, but that's planning geek stuff. LOL

😊 I loved this

[JennW in SoCal]

My 2 college graduates have told me many times that the best things I did as a homeschool mom was surrounding them with good books, interesting science and history documentaries, taking lots of field trips and having endless discussions about everything.  I didn't use any curricula, except for math, until high school. Seriously. We read, we explored, I had them work on basic skills, and we talked.  

 

Not everyone is comfortable creating their own classes, or winging it in an unschooly fashion.  But curriculum is simply a tool, and it alone is not what makes homeschooling successful. Start reading, model what it is to be inquisitive, to be excited about learning new stuff, and your kids will grow and develop into successful high school and college students no matter what curricula you choose.

 

As far as planning -- I planned all sorts of plans early on!  None of them were ever used! But, in those early years I did come up with a statement of purpose, and a definition of my philosophy of education.  It was what I turned to over the years to redirect my focus, to remember why on earth I wasn't just sending them off to school!  

[dhudson]

I am a planner but one of the things I learned along the way was that new curriculum was being written and published as my kids got older so what I thought I might use changed because there was new and better products. For instance, my younger kids got to use WWE/WWS but my oldest did not.

 

I found that having long term goals a much better plan. I focused more on what philosophy I wanted to use and what I wanted my kids to be and know. I could then have long term plans without focusing on the "tools" of the education while focusing on my long term goals. It also allowed us to be more nimble and move to curriculums that helped us to individualize their education based on their needs.

 

The other thing I learned was that even though my oldest didn't use the same curriculums that my youngest kids have, he has done very well in in high school and in college. Our philosophy of education, our goals and how we taught the info turned out to be far more important than the actual curriculum used.

[LisaKinVA]

12 years ago, I could have written what you just did :D

 

And baby, I mapped it out.  And, I've mapped it out again every year since then :D

 

It's good to have a general plan that get's revised. Listing ideas of curriculum, courses that sound interesting, providers, it's great.  I can also tell you my plans have changed drastically over the past 12 years.  There were the plans based upon where we wanted to end up (Calculus AB, AP Science, Senior Thesis/English 12, AP Gov't, AP Economics, AP Foreign Language, Elective, Bible), There were the plans based upon what seemed to be his breakneck speed through math (Diff. Calc/Linear Equations...everything else the same).  There were the plans I made when he hit 12, and I had to revise everything back (hahahaha!), and then there are the plans now, which look about right (AP Calc BC, AP English Lit, AP Physics C, Robotics 3, AP Italian (if not taken next year), AP Gov't, AP Economics, and a couple of electives).  And even then, there are changes (we were going to do AP Physics 1 next year, but switched to AP Environmental, so he can take AP Physics C his senior year, otherwise, it would be too much of more or less the same thing.  

 

Curriculum wants changed as I got to know my kids and myself.

Curriculum options changed based upon financial considerations that weren't an issue 12 years ago.

Curriculum options changed based upon where we were living, costs of DE, etc.

 

So plan away -- it's fun, and easy to get lost in the daydreaming -- just keep in mind that it's probably going to change a lot ;)

 

 

 

 

[Colleen in NS]

Wow again, awesome info here! thank you!!

 

I just started listening to SWB's mp3 lectures on Writing with ease and I am sold. ... Thank you to those who helped me understand what WWE and WWS would cover. I am really sold and excited to try it.  Those writing lectures combined with our using WWE and WWS really helped me learn how to teach writing skills.  WWE and WWS weren't just curricula to me.  If you could see my posts from about eight years ago, you would see someone struggling hard to understand the big picture of teaching writing skills!!  :D

... I have R&S lined up to try for grammar and spelling at this point, so I will start there and make course adjustments if/when needed.  Now that I've told you how wonderful R&S was for us for grammar....hahaha...I also need to tell you that we used First Language Lessons from Peace Hill Press (written by Jessie Wise, SWB's mother) back when it was just Levels 1 and 2 combined into one book that I basically read aloud to my kids and did fun grammar activities from (we started R&S grammar at Level 3).  Since then, FLL has expanded to Levels 3 and 4, and I believe all four levels are now in workbook form (with the ever-helpful Peace Hill Press-style teacher instructions, same as in WWE and WWS). 

 

Furthermore!  SWB is currently working on the Advance Language Lessons series for middle grades - from what I remember when I beta-tested it a few years ago and was thinking last year about applying to help with writing exercises for it, it is intended in three or four levels to FINISH grammar training before high school.  And from our beta-testing years ago, if I were to start all over, I would totally go the FLL and ALL route now instead of R&S.  :D  One, because it will finish the thorough grammar training earlier than R&S does; two, because the exercises are MUCH more interesting because they are drawn from a big variety of literature unlike R&S which tends to be insular and narrow  in content; and three, because R&S inserts more and more propaganda as the levels advance.  My kids grew weary of the tone of telling the reader what to think about certain topics (such as, be wary of public libraries!!!).  BUT BUT BUT.  They also made it through with an excellent grasp of grammar.  It's not a bad choice at all.  It's just that there's an equally thorough and rigourous choice out there now that, content-wise, would have been easier to swallow.  It really just boils down to worldview, I think.  Just thought I'd let you know about that alternative.  Oh, and I think that ALL is due to be published this fall.  I'm not sure, but I think I read that somewhere here.

 

Love the ideas about history, and I have ordered the SOTW 1 to look at, because I hate the narration style of MOH and would love if SOTW would fit our beliefs. The reason I was leaning away from it was because I have heard that it was confusing that SWB describes the Bible stories as somewhat the same as "myths" and I thought I read something about one or two instances of other Biblical inconsistencies. I am going to look at it, and if I decide it's minor and something I can adjust if needed, I think we will try it out. I love the samples I've read online. Ir seems like between SOTW and WWE, I would also get some ideas to help me guide narration exercises in history and science too.

 

I am thinking I need to read the Well-educated mind too, and get myself on a path of looking into the Great Books myself so I can slowly start building familiarity (and reducing fear, ha!).

 

I am encouraged to learn more about what this journey could look like for us. I am so grateful for all the advice and the great links and resources you have all directed me to. Thank you!!!!

 

Tanya

I raise my hand as one of the ones who made a 12-year plan for each kid way back.  I still have it, I still look it over each year when figuring out the coming year, and I see that things have changed in it.  But I don't one bit regret having made it because it was sort of a distillation of my understanding of the principles laid out in TWTM book.  I NEEDED to do that, so I could have a map to guide me.  I really had no idea back then about how to guide an entire education for my kids, and I couldn't figure out how others around me seemed to know how.  Anyway, count me with the planners!  :D  Have fun!

Edited May 23, 2016 by Colleen in NS

[Lfwfv]

Thank you all again for your generous advice, and shared experiences. Yes, I am using my plan as a way of fleshing out the ideas in TWTM; to understand how it can work in practice. I understand the plan will likely change over time, but I need a course direction and a way to organize my thoughts and deepen my understanding of "the plan".

 

I will definitely look at the First Language Lessons Colleen, thanks for the tip. I love the look of R&S, but just glanced at FLL and it looks so incredibly clear and easy to use. Plus, I wouldn't be doubling up on writing if I go with FLL and WWE/WWS.

 

Does anybody know if/when the Writing with Style component of the Complete Writer is going to come out? I am hoping the program doesn't end with WWS....That said, I did feel a lot more comfortable with possibly charting my own course after hearing SWB's lectures about high school writing (after also listening to her lectures about Grammar and Logic stage writing). It all just makes a lot more sense now, and I'm so glad I was able to listen to some of her lectures. It makes the whole process much more practical, and realistic. I feel like she has a great grasp on rigor vs. speed, and the idea that mastery takes time (and a careful step-by-step progression), and that rings true with my own teaching philosophy.

 

Veritas Press, IEW...they all seem to push the Great Books (in their original form), and college-level writing at the 7th grade level, and I think that was really freaking me out. As I am reading more, I'm understanding the SWB doesn't really agree with that, and I prefer her methodical step-by-step, mastery approach. It makes intuitive sense to me, and is in line with the way I think about and teach violin. I have also started deliberately "homeschooling" my son at this preK level because I wanted to test the homeschool waters, and confirm my own teaching personality, and I think i really need step-by-step curriculum that allows me to be thorough and methodical with each skill. Small chunks, day by day, working towards mastery. it makes sense to me, and I don't want to rush the process just so we can tackle Omnibus in 7th grade. Truthfully, imagining Omnibus by 7th grade makes me feel like I need him to be writing papers by 4th grade, and I just hate that and don't feel I (or he) could do it well by then.

 

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Long way of saying, this thread has been incredibly helpful. I am encouraged to clarify my own homeschool "mission statement" and to seek out a course and curriculum choices that suit me, my children, and our family's goals. And yes, I will remain flexible :)

 

thanks

Tanya

[Colleen in NS]

Thank you all again for your generous advice, and shared experiences. Yes, I am using my plan as a way of fleshing out the ideas in TWTM; to understand how it can work in practice. I understand the plan will likely change over time, but I need a course direction and a way to organize my thoughts and deepen my understanding of "the plan".

 

I will definitely look at the First Language Lessons Colleen, thanks for the tip. I love the look of R&S, but just glanced at FLL and it looks so incredibly clear and easy to use. Plus, I wouldn't be doubling up on writing if I go with FLL and WWE/WWS.

 

Does anybody know if/when the Writing with Style component of the Complete Writer is going to come out? I am hoping the program doesn't end with WWS....That said, I did feel a lot more comfortable with possibly charting my own course after hearing SWB's lectures about high school writing (after also listening to her lectures about Grammar and Logic stage writing). It all just makes a lot more sense now, and I'm so glad I was able to listen to some of her lectures. It makes the whole process much more practical, and realistic. I feel like she has a great grasp on rigor vs. speed, and the idea that mastery takes time (and a careful step-by-step progression), and that rings true with my own teaching philosophy.

 

Veritas Press, IEW...they all seem to push the Great Books (in their original form), and college-level writing at the 7th grade level, and I think that was really freaking me out. As I am reading more, I'm understanding the SWB doesn't really agree with that, and I prefer her methodical step-by-step, mastery approach. It makes intuitive sense to me, and is in line with the way I think about and teach violin. I have also started deliberately "homeschooling" my son at this preK level because I wanted to test the homeschool waters, and confirm my own teaching personality, and I think i really need step-by-step curriculum that allows me to be thorough and methodical with each skill. Small chunks, day by day, working towards mastery. it makes sense to me, and I don't want to rush the process just so we can tackle Omnibus in 7th grade. Truthfully, imagining Omnibus by 7th grade makes me feel like I need him to be writing papers by 4th grade, and I just hate that and don't feel I (or he) could do it well by then.

 

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. Long way of saying, this thread has been incredibly helpful. I am encouraged to clarify my own homeschool "mission statement" and to seek out a course and curriculum choices that suit me, my children, and our family's goals. And yes, I will remain flexible :)

 

thanks

Tanya

 

You are going to do just fine on this journey.  :D

 

A long time ago, SWB was going to write the Writing With Style component, but I haven't heard anything about it since then.  I hope she will.  Hey, she's working on ALL after the years-ago beta test, so we can hope!  My kids will be done high school, but I'll buy it anyway for myself!!  :D  I love love love her teaching materials.  But, I think because of the understanding I finally obtained about teaching writing skills, my son also did pretty well after finishing WWS with learning rhetoric skills the way SWB explained in her lectures and in TWTM.  I was able to figure out how to create writing assignments for him, too, which I could NOT have fathomed eight years ago!!!  I'm sure Writing With Style will be even more awesome.