Vocal training for a frustrated 10yo

[jplain]

My 10 year old has been playing piano for a year and a half, and she dabbles in ukulele. She's frustrated with her inability to match pitch with the piano (can't hum along with her playing). She's extremely upset about being unable to sing along with her uke playing, to the extent that she won't play it anymore.

 

It's as if her voice randomly hunts for the note, and she's rarely successful in finding it unless I sing along with her. I have a hard time relating, as I don't have trouble roughly matching pitches, and neither does my 12yo. But my husband, a serious pianist, can't match pitch to save his life.(However, he's much more sensitive than I am to out of tune pianos, so his ears are fine!)

 

She's tried a few ear training apps that I use for myself, and she hasn't found them helpful. But I stick with free and very cheap apps, so maybe there's a great app out there that I haven't seen.

 

Any DIY suggestions before I break down and find her a vocal coach? She has no interest in vocal performance, she just wants to noodle around on the uke and use her voice as an aid when studying piano.

 

Many thanks in advance!

[PeterPan]

Well our situation is a little extreme, but we did music therapy with ds this year to get him able to make his voice go up and down and hit notes.  He has verbal apraxia and was pretty much monotone, unable to control his voice and make it go up and down.  It's about $35 a session (1/2 hour), and now he can sing songs.  They started with a lot of basic exercises like singing a simple hello song in different kinds of voices (baby, gorilla, dog, etc.).  They did some note matching work, yes.  The music therapist was able to quantify it and tell what intervals he could hit and where the breakdowns were occurring.  Then she could target it in a really effective way.  

 

Do you have a keyboard or piano?  She might try her note-matching with the keyboard instead.  The intervals are easier, apparently.  Our therapist found ds could do note matching with the keyboard much more easily than the guitar.  Bonus is, she's been teaching him a little piano and then letting him sing along!  

 

I would *think* a professional music educator would have enough background to do this.  A music therapist can do all that AND work on social/emotional goals, behavioral goals, that kind of thing.  It's really amazing.  So whoever is qualified at your pricepoint would work.  Definitely a music therapist could do it and probably get some progress pretty quickly or at least tell her WHY she's having this difficulty.  It might actually be really comforting to your dd if it turned out that ukelele is comparatively hard to match to and that she was FINE with a keyboard and just needed to extend the skill, kwim?

 

I'm assuming there are also apps.  There's ear training software.  I just think that once you're talking about the person's self-concept, might as well get an actual person to help if you can.  That way you ensure success or the feeling of success till there is success.  

[jplain]

Thanks OhElizabeth! You've given me lots of food for thought. :)

 

We have a piano, but a keyboard might be a fun addition to our flock (horde?) of instruments. And yep, I agree with the idea that strings might be harder to match by ear. I hate to admit it, but I rely on an electronic tuner. I can't remember the last time I tuned my uke using a pitch pipe or the piano.

 

And yes, self-concept is my main concern. I've been watching and waiting for the last six months, hoping it's just a developmental thing, but I think she's going to want help from someone who knows more than me. The idea of music therapy is very intriguing! We live in the boonies, but it's still pretty artsy, so I'll look into our options.

 

Thank you again!

[Arcadia]

Singing at the correct pitch is a different skill then hearing at perfect pitch. I had a public school music teacher who was also the combined schools youth choir director for 1st grade. We had harmonica, recorder and voice training. Most of us were singing out of tune other than those who had private piano lessons.

 

I had voice training as part of my classical piano lessons when I started at 4. We sight read and sing a new piece, then try playing it. Not all piano teachers are also trained in voice but I think many are trained in the basics.

[Georgiana Daniels]

The music therapist idea is great! You might have to look for someone other than an actual vocal teacher since the reputable ones I know of don't work with kids under 14. Of course, that was for singing -singing, rather than pitch matching, etc.

 

I think it's wonderful that your 10 year old is this far advanced to even attempt plating and singing at the same time. That's a pretty tough skill, imo.

[FO4UR]

Oh, keep this simple.

 

Make certain that what she's trying to sing is in her range.  Few people realize this, but it's a developmental LEAP to be able to transpose an octave up or down.  If she's trying to sing along with something out of her range, that is the problem and it has nothing to do with her ear.  And it certainly doesn't need any therapy or lessons or anything.

 

It's like magic!  Take a group of kids and ask them to sing back from a model singing very low.  The kids will drone monotone.  Kick the pitch up into child-friendly range and "POOF" the kids can sing!  They mimic exactly what they hear. 

 

Another issue that is common is that of kids mimicking stylistic junk.  In order for kids to sing reliably in tune, they need to stick to their high, light head voice for a long, long, long while.  (Hoot like an owl.  That is your singing voice.)  Kids want to sound like adults.  But they aren't.  When they try to sing deeply and low, they lose the ability to maintain pitch.

 

Of course, you can find exceptions.  But...they are exceptions.

 

 

 

If you want a program. Use THIS.  It starts with sol-mi (easiest interval to hear and sing) and gradually grows from there.  She has keyboard skills?  Great!  Use these tunes for chording practice.  Use these tunes for practice on the Uke.  Sing them first.  If she works through this book, singing and playing, she will develop her ear and voice just fine. 

 

[Sahamamama]

Alfred Music has some materials for ear training. HTH.

 

http://www.alfred.com/Products/Alfreds-Basic-Piano-Library-Ear-Training-Teachers-Handbook-and-Answer-Key-Levels-1A-4--00-3487.aspx

[FO4UR]

Alfred Music has some materials for ear training. HTH.

 

http://www.alfred.com/Products/Alfreds-Basic-Piano-Library-Ear-Training-Teachers-Handbook-and-Answer-Key-Levels-1A-4--00-3487.aspx

 

She could also use the Kodaly book I linked above and use those intervals to drill as she goes.

 

I would be very light on the actual drilling though.  (It's a good way to turn a kid off...esp if she's already having a bit of trouble matching pitch.)

 

After she is confidently singing a kodaly tune (and they are common folk tunes - familiar), then start picking apart intervals.  Sing on "la" and see if she knows the solfegge, "That's sol-mi!"  and so on.

 

 

She's 10yo.  Depending upon her piano skills and how mature of a 10yo she is, you can also start identifying that sol-mi is a m3.  Can you sing a m3 starting from a different pitch?  (That is getting advanced.  But, if you keep it in her range she will likely be able to do it in a year after singing & playing through the Kodaly folk tunes.  Just wait for full confidence with each step along the way.)

[PeterPan]

BJU uses the Kodaly method in their elementary music sequence.  I did some of it with dd, and it was fun!  

 

[Dmmetler]

If you want a use at home curriculum which starts at the beginning, look at CLE. The Mennonite church traditionally does not use instruments in worship, and therefore, they have a strong tradition of multi-part acapella vocal music and pitch matching, and teach it extensively, along with detailed music reading. And the LUs are inexpensive.

 

For "fun music" Music K-8 is a good website to visit. They are both a publisher of fun teaching songs with full accompaniment tracks, and also sell good music by other publishers. Music Express is another magazine for music teachers which includes a lot of "fun" songs that are in the correct vocal range and style for elementary age kids.

[wintermom]

You may want to find a children's choir for your dd to join. A well-trained choir director will chose songs within the children's vocal range, as well as include vocal warm-ups and other exercises to help develop the children's voices.

 

I took years of piano lessons in the youth, and never sang once in a piano lesson. I think this was a shame, and weakness of the teacher training and/or traditional method of piano lessons. My dc are all taking either violin or guitar, and there is regular singing within their instrument lessons - especially with the violin. Being able to hear the music in one's head, sing it, and then play it, is a vital skill in violin (that is if you want to play in tune!).  

[Bluegoat]

I second the choir idea.  My girls choir get kids regularly who can't sing, but they are all able to hold their own at the end of the year.

[Sahamamama]

If you want a use at home curriculum which starts at the beginning, look at CLE. The Mennonite church traditionally does not use instruments in worship, and therefore, they have a strong tradition of multi-part acapella vocal music and pitch matching, and teach it extensively, along with detailed music reading. And the LUs are inexpensive.

 

For "fun music" Music K-8 is a good website to visit. They are both a publisher of fun teaching songs with full accompaniment tracks, and also sell good music by other publishers. Music Express is another magazine for music teachers which includes a lot of "fun" songs that are in the correct vocal range and style for elementary age kids.

 

Dmmetler, have you used this? I don't want to derail this thread, but I've been looking at the CLE music materials and just can't decide if it's for us or not. We do use instruments, but I like the idea of learning to sing a capella. My girls are in a choir and they all love to sing. They have a beautiful "sibling blend" when they harmonize, they just need some more training to make it truly angelic. :Angel_anim: :Angel_anim: :Angel_anim: :001_wub: I know, I'm a bit biased.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Sahamamama

[Dmmetler]

CLE would probably work quite well for a family. Be aware that the lower levels start with the shape notes used in Mennonite churches, where each shape relates to the scale degree, so intervals are very visible. It does bridge over at about book 5 to traditional notation.

[FO4UR]

Dmmetler, have you used this? I don't want to derail this thread, but I've been looking at the CLE music materials and just can't decide if it's for us or not. We do use instruments, but I like the idea of learning to sing a capella. My girls are in a choir and they all love to sing. They have a beautiful "sibling blend" when they harmonize, they just need some more training to make it truly angelic. :Angel_anim: :Angel_anim: :Angel_anim: :001_wub: I know, I'm a bit biased.

 

 

CLE would probably work quite well for a family. Be aware that the lower levels start with the shape notes used in Mennonite churches, where each shape relates to the scale degree, so intervals are very visible. It does bridge over at about book 5 to traditional notation.

 

 

It's good to know where it bridges over to traditional notation.  I might take a 2nd look.  I am not a fan of shaped notes.

 

I much prefer hand signs and solfegge, and the Kodaly progression.  (hand signs optional) Solfegge has application in higher levels music theory so I strongly encourage solfegge.  (My childhood experience in solfegge probably meant the difference between me graduating with a music degree or not.)

 

 

Sahamama, that's wonderful that your kids sing together!  (My kids fight together...not the same thing. :lol: )  Have you tried to find 2 or 3 part choral pieces?  Learning some traditional choral pieces will give them experience singing various patterns and will help grow their vocal "tool-box" for when they want to harmonize by ear.  I wonder if you could find a bunch for free if you knew a music teacher who is cleaning out her closet???  Those things are more fun for the kids if they have a box of music to pick from.  Do you have a music store nearby?  (Not one that just sells guitars and amps...one where the music teachers go.)

[jplain]

All very helpful responses. Thanks to all!