Families are hard

[MeghanL]

I posted a few months back about my sister-in-law. Long story short, she suffered a stillborn birth of her 34-week old son. The cord had wrapped around his neck. Everyone was devastated. We weren't able to be at the hospital because my husband had just had surgery and was unable to walk or supervise any children (so I could just go). We have never been close. But, we saw each other for roughly 6 hours a year and got along fairly well during that time. 

 

She has gone completely psychotic and it is becoming increasingly obvious that my brother-in-law has most likely been a victim of emotional and verbal abuse for years. When the abuse overflowed onto us, my in-laws and mutual friends, we had to make the difficult decision to remove ourselves as targets. 

 

They have a son who turns 3 today. I'm not sure I'll ever see him again. And it makes me sad knowing he's in that situation. I really wish there had been something we could have done.   

[Carol in Cal.]

I remember you posting about this before, I think.

 

Is there any reason not to send a gift to the son?  I mean, it might not be acknowledged, and it might even be sent back, it will not be responded to appropriately, but you still might enjoy doing it if you don't have any expectations of a good response.  Just doing it for its own sake.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Wow that really is tough.  So sorry. 

[Guest]

I remember your original post. Hugs to your family as they deal with this difficult time. I hope she gets the help she needs and the resolution with your nephew and brother comes swiftly :(

[East Coast Sue]

Yes, family relations are tough. I like Carol in Cal's idea of sending a card or gift without expectations, but I can understand reasons for not initiating contact too.  Its just so hard to be in your position. (((hugs)))

[hjffkj]

I remember you talking about this previously. I'm sorry you have had to distance yourself from not only the abusive person but also you bil and nephew. That must be awful. Hugs to you

[MeghanL]

I remember you posting about this before, I think.

 

Is there any reason not to send a gift to the son?  I mean, it might not be acknowledged, and it might even be sent back, it will not be responded to appropriately, but you still might enjoy doing it if you don't have any expectations of a good response.  Just doing it for its own sake.

 

Any initiation on our part, even a gift sent to her son, will be another opening to attack viciously. I wish I were exaggerating :(

[zoobie]

I hope your brother-in-law finds strength to get help for her, himself, and his son.

[purplejackmama]

Is your BIL in denial?

[Carol in Cal.]

Ugh.

 

[MeghanL]

Is your BIL in denial?

 

So much denial. It's like he's a shell of a person. Even when it's just him, he's just a conduit for whatever she wants him to say. I've never seen anything like it. 

He says they've talked it over and together decided that he's not being abused. And she hasn't been abusive to any of us either. So, I guess that's the end of the story in his mind. 

[Valley Girl]

I remember your thread, too. Maybe I'm thinking about a different situation, but I thought you'd been able to meet and sort of resolve things. (Again, I may be thinking of someone else.) In any case, I'm sorry that there is more loss and pain compounding the terrible loss of their baby.

[purplejackmama]

She's decided he's not being abused by her? Well that's convenient.

 

How are your MIL & FIL handling things?

[Carol in Cal.]

Is he really passive by nature, kind of emotionally lazy?  

Because that can feed into a dynamic like this as well.

I ask this not because it defends abuse, it doesn't, but because it helps you to interpret his actions.

[MeghanL]

I remember your thread, too. Maybe I'm thinking about a different situation, but I thought you'd been able to meet and sort of resolve things. (Again, I may be thinking of someone else.) In any case, I'm sorry that there is more loss and pain compounding the terrible loss of their baby.

 

I had thought that things might be ok. We had a phone conversation and it seemed like things were going to be able to move forward in a positive direction. At this point, my husband was the only target of all the anger and we really thought it was stemming from the grief. The more conversations we had with her, the more violent and paranoid she was getting and nothing we did was ever the right thing. I've recently looked up information on the Vulnerable Narcissist and it describes her to a T. She creates some "wrong" and then when you feel confused for causing her hurt when that was never your intention, you reach out to apologize and ease that hurt. But, then she has you where she wants you and uses your interest in making things better to instead eviscerate you for a litany of imagined crimes against her. She'll do it in public, in front of your kids, in front of her husband and all you can do is sit there in stunned and shocked silence. I think she's been doing this to my brother-in-law for years but has been able to hide it for the few times a year we would all get together. Now, probably in large part to the trauma of the stillbirth, she no longer has the ability to filter her abuse toward only those that she's eased into it. 

 

My in-laws are devastated. They've lost their son, their grandson and their daughter-in-law. They had no idea what had been going on (none of us did!) until they were on the receiving end. And they have a lot of second guessing of themselves as to what they did wrong that their son would allow himself to be treated this way, and allow his moral compass to be so far moved that he would sit silently by while lining up targets for his wife to tear down. It's hands down the most awful thing I've ever tried to navigate because there is literally nothing we can do.

Edited May 16, 2016 by MeghanL

[MeghanL]

Is he really passive by nature, kind of emotionally lazy?  

Because that can feed into a dynamic like this as well.

I ask this not because it defends abuse, it doesn't, but because it helps you to interpret his actions.

 

He has always been a very compliant person. And definitely passive. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

postpartum psychosis?

[Carol in Cal.]

He has always been a very compliant person. And definitely passive. 

Ok, so that doesn't make it his fault but it does mean that it will be hard if not impossible to appeal to him even in his own interests.

 

I'm going to revert to something I have worked out for myself.

 

In dealing with someone who is really crazy, I can't look for or expect feedback that is appropriate.  So I have to do what I feel is right or good or just desired even, regardless of the response.  That means that if you would feel better sending your nephew a gift, you should.  Because SIL is out of the closet on this crazy stuff now, so anything that that triggers is not going to be believed.  And if you don't feel like sending your nephew a gift, you shouldn't.  Because this is a nutsy situation.  

 

ETA:  And I agree with others who connect this to postpartum psychosis.  Pretty scary.  I hope she can get some help.  Someone needs to intervene.  I don't know who though.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Valley Girl]

I had thought that things might be ok. We had a phone conversation and it seemed like things were going to be able to move forward in a positive direction. At this point, my husband was the only target of all the anger and we really thought it was stemming from the grief. The more conversations we had with her, the more violent and paranoid she was getting and nothing we did was ever the right thing. I've recently looked up information on the Vulnerable Narcissist and it describes her to a T. She creates some "wrong" and then when you feel confused for causing her hurt when that was never your intention, you reach out to apologize and ease that hurt. But, then she has you where she wants you and uses your interest in making things better to instead eviscerate you for a litany of imagined crimes against her. She'll do it in public, in front of your kids, in front of her husband and all you can do is sit there in stunned and shocked silence. I think she's been doing this to my brother-in-law for years but has been able to hide it for the few times a year we would all get together. Now, probably in large part to the trauma of the stillbirth, she no longer has the ability to filter her abuse toward only those that she's eased into it. 

 

My in-laws are devastated. They've lost their son, their grandson and their daughter-in-law. They had no idea what had been going on (none of us did!) until they were on the receiving end. And they have a lot of second guessing of themselves as to what they did wrong that their son would allow himself to be treated this way, and allow his moral compass to be so far moved that he would sit silently by while lining up targets for his wife to tear down. It's hands down the most awful thing I've ever tried to navigate because there is literally nothing we can do.

 

I can only imagine. I don't think I'd know what to do except protect myself and my family either. So sorry for everyone involved.

 

[MedicMom]

In all fairness, I would be strongly suspecting postpartum psychosis combined with grief.

 

It can turn a person into someone completely different.

[MeghanL]

In all fairness, I would be strongly suspecting postpartum psychosis combined with grief.

 

It can turn a person into someone completely different.

 

That is completely possible. Sadly, still nothing I can do to fix it. 

[MeghanL]

Ok, so that doesn't make it his fault but it does mean that it will be hard if not impossible to appeal to him even in his own interests.

 

I'm going to revert to something I have worked out for myself.

 

In dealing with someone who is really crazy, I can't look for or expect feedback that is appropriate.  So I have to do what I feel is right or good or just desired even, regardless of the response.  That means that if you would feel better sending your nephew a gift, you should.  Because SIL is out of the closet on this crazy stuff now, so anything that that triggers is not going to be believed.  And if you don't feel like sending your nephew a gift, you shouldn't.  Because this is a nutsy situation.  

 

ETA:  And I agree with others who connect this to postpartum psychosis.  Pretty scary.  I hope she can get some help.  Someone needs to intervene.  I don't know who though.

 

I agree with you and if I had even an inkling that my nephew would benefit in any way from hearing from us, I would send something. I just don't think it's going to have any kind of positive result for him. 

[Valley Girl]

Does anyone in the family know who her OBGYN is? Maybe a call to the office to report the symptoms and the concern that it might be postpartum psychosis? If the relationship is so damaged now, it doesn't seem as though that could make things worse. If for no other reason than there's a small child involved, it might be worth a call.

[mamiof5]

I remember this situation. So sad in many ways :( Yes, family issues are tough. I'd pray for my nephew on his birthday. And maybe I'd set aside the money I'd have spent in a gift? (In a savings account or something). You might not be able to see him in the near future, but maybe someday. Even if it's 10 years from now? Or you might have to wait til he's 18? Nobody knows what life will bring. I think I'd save his money for birthdays and Christmas (if you give Christmas presents), and hope that someday I can give it directly to him.

[MeghanL]

Does anyone in the family know who her OBGYN is? Maybe a call to the office to report the symptoms and the concern that it might be postpartum psychosis? If the relationship is so damaged now, it doesn't seem as though that could make things worse. If for no other reason than there's a small child involved, it might be worth a call.

 

None of us know that information. My mil was on talking terms with my sil mom, and she has voiced concern to her. It was met with dismissal and a strong impression that she's always been like this and her entire family has been enabling her. My MIL was told that "outside help is not wanted right now". We still don't know if she meant counselors, or was talking about us as the inlaws as outsiders. Who knows. 

 

All to say that we have tried to get them help through every avenue open to us. And we have tried to be a source of support as well (ultimately to our detriment, but the intent was definitely there). 

[Seasider]

I remember this situation. So sad in many ways :( Yes, family issues are tough. I'd pray for my nephew on his birthday. And maybe I'd set aside the money I'd have spent in a gift? (In a savings account or something). You might not be able to see him in the near future, but maybe someday. Even if it's 10 years from now? Or you might have to wait til he's 18? Nobody knows what life will bring. I think I'd save his money for birthdays and Christmas (if you give Christmas presents), and hope that someday I can give it directly to him.

This is a great idea. Start a little nest egg for him. Because one day, when he's older, he may come to understand the horribly dysfunctional situation and want to become independent from his parents. It would be nice to be able to help out then, if you can't now.

 

I am so sorry you have to deal with this. Unmanaged mental illness is so very difficult.

[maize]

postpartum psychosis?

 

Definitely sounds like a mental health problem.

 

And refusing treatment is unfortunately common; it is hard for a brain impacted by disease to think rationally about appropriate treatment. 

 

I am sorry your family is dealing with this :( I hope for the sake of that little boy, his dad, and your SIL herself that someone can convince her to seek treatment.

[freeindeed]

I am so sorry.

[trulycrabby]

I have seen postpartum psychosis, and it looks a lot like what you are describing. I am so very sorry for the loss of their baby. The whole situation is heartbreaking. :grouphug: