Math curriculum advice, please

[Bookworm4]

I have been spending way too much time trying to figure out what to do about math (we're ready to switch now and not just this fall).  For background, DD is dyslexic and struggles with writing (dysgraphia hasn't been formally tested, but she has many signs - however she doesn't mind writing numbers as much as letters).  We are part way through RS 2nd Ed level C.  Both DD and I need a change.  She is one who conceptually understands math quickly.  Math facts do not come quickly and she also has a slow processing speed.  She has been using Dreambox as a supplement and likes it (until she gets to a new concept we haven't covered and then she gets frustrated as she's trying to think and the computer keeps talking to her - but it hasn't deterred her from wanting to use it). 

 

In the past we tried math mammoth and DD didn't understand their pictures of explanations and the page layout felt overwhelming to her.  In the past she hated the Singapore primary math US edition pictures and begged to go back to RS, but when I showed her level 2A and 2B recently she seemed a little open to the idea of using it as she made a comment about how she could color the pictures afterwards (she is very artistic).  She saw me looking at MUS sample pages and she liked the clean layout and white space on those pages.  I like the thought of CLE and Horizons with the review built in, but am afraid the pages may overwhelm her after our time with MM.  I am willing to combine aspects of different programs if that may be the best fit for her.  She seems to want some independence in math, but isn't ready to do everything on her own for sure.  A part of me thought of using MUS to give her some of that independence and then using some parts of SM or other to add in more conceptual practice or mental math practice (she likes it when she can mentally do math, but maybe doesn't need more than MUS for the mental math practice?).  She is good at coming up with the right answers but if she had to show her work for everything it would be a disaster. 

 

I know many of you have children with similar struggles or experiences so thought I'd ask here for advice.  I am willing to scribe for her (although for math she has been wanting to do it herself lately) and plan to read any instructions/word problems to her at this point.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Bookworm4

[OneStepAtATime]

How old is she?

 

Given what you have described, I am wondering if maybe CLE paired with Beast Academy done as a team might work?  CLE would give her lots of review and scaffolding and support with her math facts. Definitely give the placement test and maybe call the grade levels "levels" not grade levels.  Explain you have to pass through the levels.  Beast Academy might be a fun but challenging (in a positive way) to feed her conceptual understanding strengths.  Do BA together and go as slow as you need.  3A can be quite challenging, especially for some lessons.

 

You could try out just the first couple of Light Units of whatever level of CLE she tested into so you aren't investing a ton of time and effort before you know if it will be a good fit.  I recommend breaking it up. Do the new material together on a dry erase, have her practice her math facts (they have targeted practice for that which is separate from the normal lesson and they have a really helpful set of flash cards), then maybe take a break.  Later she can do the review problems on her own.  

 

You might periodically cross out some of the review in areas  you know she is strong.  My kids really liked seeing that they didn't have to do ALL the problems.  Those problems you cross out will come up again very soon so it isn't like she won't get review.  For the regular lessons the CLE program allows students to use their math fact reference chart while the student works on math facts separately.  It actually really helps to keep the student moving forward conceptually without getting bogged down and frustrated over the lack of automaticity with math facts.

 

There is actually quite a bit of space between problems.  My kids hated the layout of MM but did not mind CLE.  

 

Keep in mind that past level 100 all first light units for each level are actually a review of the previous level.  They are not representative in scope/sequence/layout of the rest of the program.

Edited May 14, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[1shortmomto4]

I was thinking almost the same as Elizabeth on the Beast Academy but I've had no experience with CLE so I would go with MUS.  I would also do a search on visual spatial/right brain learners and see if your dd fits in to some of those descriptions.  My youngest is a lot like your dd but he is not dyslexic/dysgraphic but he has hated to write anything on paper until just recently.  MUS does have nice clean pages and after you work through the DVD lesson and perhaps the problems on the first worksheet she would be able to work through a couple of days on her own.  I'm always hesitant to send a young child or one with LDs off on their own to figure out how to do something because if they figure it out wrong it seems to take forever to undo that lesson but that is just me.  I've used BA with my youngest and it is a joy and a respite from regular math work.  I found that my ds could do much more advanced conceptual work but he was slower in computation but he has greatly improved.  I read somewhere that until the student really uses those skills in PreAlg/Algebra it doesn't make a lot of connections in their minds.  I'm working through a final pass of fractions with my youngest and his brother sits across the table doing Algebra and it was fractions.  I was able to point out why he needed to know how to do what he was doing so that he'd be able to do what big brother was working on at the time.  I've had a lot of success with BJU math taught by me without a whole lot of the extras in the TM.  I've also found that taking time for math games (for example, Allowance) practices the math skills without the drudge of a drill (I'm not a fan of drills).  I guess comparing MUS and CLE is comparing a mastery program to a spiral program.  In MUS you work through one concept each day/week and then keep building through whereas in a spiral program you work on a small piece of a skill along with reviewing old lessons and gradually adding in new stuff along the way.  I thought RS was a spiral program - and if she retained well (minus the quick recall of facts) perhaps CLE is the way to go.  Just a few rambling thoughts.

[frogger]

I can see MUS being one of the few that someone with dyslexia can do on their own as far as the worksheet is concerned. If they do one with you than they know how to do the subsequent sheet independently because they work the same and there won't be an issue with figuring out directions, etc.

 

That being said my son gets bored very quickly with MUS and RS has been the best fit with getting those concepts quickly and spending extra time on facts via games and computer programs. Sometimes we take breaks from concepts and focus on games and facts because memorizing facts is very difficult for him.

 

Another way to get independence is to work on math facts on the computer. It will tell them immediately if they are off. Things like TimzAttack or other facts practice. You don't want someone who struggles to memorize things to do a whole worksheet writing 6+4= 11. It will be a nightmare repairing that. Why is it that they can remember things that are wrong easier?

 

Perhaps one of these other programs would be better but thought I would mention that RS may be ok and you just need a break. I realized if you followed their curriculum without the supplemental Geometry you could end up in Algebra in 6th grade. You do not have to do a new lesson everyday.

 

A little supplement workbook on facts or BA may give you the break you need.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll just say this, and you can say I'm weird.   :)  My dd (ADHD, no SLDs) did RS through D, jumped to BJU, same gig with the low processing speed, and for her it took a LONG TIME for math facts to get solid.  Ds7 has his +/- cold, and I mean COLD.  Now he can't always tell you accurately what comes before 8, lol, but he has those math facts.  Things that are different?  

 

-earlier OT, lots of OT.  Remember, a lot of this difficulty with academics is because we need two sides of the brain to connect.  So anything you do for midline eventually helps.

-LOTS of work on working memory.  It's the scratchpad of the brain.

-Ronit Bird.  I swear by her.  

-drill, baby, drill.

 

My ds has them cold, and my dd took years.  My ds has ADHD/ASD plus 3 SLDs and way more going on.  Slightly higher IQ (big woop) and somewhat higher processing speed.  But the major differences are how he was taught.

 

So my suggestion, in addition of course to the OT and working memory work, is you buy the Ronit Bird Exploring Numbers with Dot Patterns ebook.  It's around $10.  It will be nice variety since you did RS.  I used RS, like RS, and I know you're going to say oh RS was so, so conceptually that you can't POSSIBLY benefit from going through those concepts again.  Try it anyway.  It's not expensive, and you can do it with skittles, m&ms, marshmallows, anything fun/cheap you have lying around.  Your cost is almost nil.  

 

Use your head and after you play the games go hey could we write an equation for that?  Then go through the concepts and write equations.  Then slowly start putting the things she has learned into an app.  I used a really ho-hum drill app that I can pull up if you want me to.  i think I paid a ridiculous price like $5.  What I liked about it was the ability to choose precise families and skip the ones we weren't ready for.  DRILL, DRILL, DRILL.  Remember, you're just starting with a few things.  It's not physically painful.  Turn the timer on it OFF.  Give her a treat when she's done.  Do it three times a day.  Do it daily, slowly working through RB, adding facts.

 

The way I did it, after we had gone through DOTS, we played her Math Turnovers game, which I think is in her free Card Games ebook.  Yes, it is.  I splurged and got the $6 ante poker cards on ebay to make it extra novel.  Now you've covered all of subtraction!  So now put those facts into the app and drill them.

 

The Eides say to drill.  This is not some torture thing.  It works and my kid knows his facts and knows them consistently.  He's now conversant on both addition, subtraction, AND doing both those with positive and negative numbers.

 

I think the RS abacus doesn't work for all kids because the dc doesn't find it a tool they want to visualize.  If you don't visualize, you AREN'T internalizing it.  So the slavonic abacus might make sense in theory, but you have to leave theory and go back to something she WILL visualize and will internalize.  RB Dots was that for us. 

 

Fwiw, I did LOTS of paper drill with my dd, also drill with some devices (Flashmaster, etc.).  No difference.  I really do think they have to visualize and internalize.  Or it was the OT and working memory stuff we've done for ds.  Definitely we've been doing ALL these things.  It's not *just* one thing. 

 

For the OT, at the time we were doing School Moves/Focus Moves.  For the working memory, a variety of things.  Games, digit spans, movement games where he has to repeat and do sequences...  You really cannot work on working memory too much.  Does she like Ticket to Ride?  It would let you work on working memory and math.  You could stop your RS and play games every day for an hour while doing 20 minutes of RB and drill.

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Bookworm4]

How old is she?

 

Given what you have described, I am wondering if maybe CLE paired with Beast Academy done as a team might work?  CLE would give her lots of review and scaffolding and support with her math facts. Definitely give the placement test and maybe call the grade levels "levels" not grade levels.  Explain you have to pass through the levels.  Beast Academy might be a fun but challenging (in a positive way) to feed her conceptual understanding strengths.  Do BA together and go as slow as you need.  3A can be quite challenging, especially for some lessons.

 

You could try out just the first couple of Light Units of whatever level of CLE she tested into so you aren't investing a ton of time and effort before you know if it will be a good fit.  I recommend breaking it up. Do the new material together on a dry erase, have her practice her math facts (they have targeted practice for that which is separate from the normal lesson and they have a really helpful set of flash cards), then maybe take a break.  Later she can do the review problems on her own.  

 

You might periodically cross out some of the review in areas  you know she is strong.  My kids really liked seeing that they didn't have to do ALL the problems.  Those problems you cross out will come up again very soon so it isn't like she won't get review.  For the regular lessons the CLE program allows students to use their math fact reference chart while the student works on math facts separately.  It actually really helps to keep the student moving forward conceptually without getting bogged down and frustrated over the lack of automaticity with math facts.

 

There is actually quite a bit of space between problems.  My kids hated the layout of MM but did not mind CLE.  

 

Keep in mind that past level 100 all first light units for each level are actually a review of the previous level.  They are not representative in scope/sequence/layout of the rest of the program.

 

Thank you for the ideas.  DD is 8, almost 9, years old.  I forgot about Beast Academy earlier.  I forgot to mention that she loves Life of Fred (we've only done it as supplemental when I remember to pull it out) so thought she may like BA.  Her subtraction isn't strong enough for BA yet though, but that will get there.  (We were going over multiplication recently in RS but it hadn't gotten to subtraction yet.)

 

I will look more at CLE and give her the placement to see where she is.  I find it interesting how they separate fact drill/practice and letting them use a math facts sheet other times.  In all honesty, she has gotten her addition down and faster just because of repeated practice between either RS games or Dreambox games.  A light unit or two is a small investment to give it a try anyway.  That is also good to know about the spacing and light units.

 

[Bookworm4]

I was thinking almost the same as Elizabeth on the Beast Academy but I've had no experience with CLE so I would go with MUS.  I would also do a search on visual spatial/right brain learners and see if your dd fits in to some of those descriptions.  My youngest is a lot like your dd but he is not dyslexic/dysgraphic but he has hated to write anything on paper until just recently.  MUS does have nice clean pages and after you work through the DVD lesson and perhaps the problems on the first worksheet she would be able to work through a couple of days on her own.  I'm always hesitant to send a young child or one with LDs off on their own to figure out how to do something because if they figure it out wrong it seems to take forever to undo that lesson but that is just me.  I've used BA with my youngest and it is a joy and a respite from regular math work.  I found that my ds could do much more advanced conceptual work but he was slower in computation but he has greatly improved.  I read somewhere that until the student really uses those skills in PreAlg/Algebra it doesn't make a lot of connections in their minds.  I'm working through a final pass of fractions with my youngest and his brother sits across the table doing Algebra and it was fractions.  I was able to point out why he needed to know how to do what he was doing so that he'd be able to do what big brother was working on at the time.  I've had a lot of success with BJU math taught by me without a whole lot of the extras in the TM.  I've also found that taking time for math games (for example, Allowance) practices the math skills without the drudge of a drill (I'm not a fan of drills).  I guess comparing MUS and CLE is comparing a mastery program to a spiral program.  In MUS you work through one concept each day/week and then keep building through whereas in a spiral program you work on a small piece of a skill along with reviewing old lessons and gradually adding in new stuff along the way.  I thought RS was a spiral program - and if she retained well (minus the quick recall of facts) perhaps CLE is the way to go.  Just a few rambling thoughts.

 

Thanks.  I will look at VSL info again.  I remember looking at it once and thinking that she was likely VSL, but it's been a while.  She would definitely be a "right brained" learner though.  Even if we used MUS, I wouldn't send her off on her own to work on a worksheet without making sure she understood the concepts and working through some together first.  She likes math for the most part and usually picks up on new concepts quickly.

 

That is interesting about the algebra work and making connections.  I haven't heard of that, but my research has been more around reading and motor skills mostly in the past.  :)  

 

Is BJU something that you use on it's own or something you would combine with BA as well?  I read some threads on one of the other forums about combining MUS and BA that were interesting.  I will look more at those as well.  DD likes an obtainable challenge so she might love BA. 

 

As for games, I need to make sure I take more time for games and games with different concepts.  DD loves games and remembers so much more in game form. 

 

RS is spiral, but I think she would be fine in mastery as well.  Granted, I could be wrong.  For her, she seems to understand the concepts quickly, but need a lot of repeated practice to get the math facts down well.  I noticed that MUS did add a review page (G) to each week, but I don't know how the review compares to spiral programs. 

 

[Bookworm4]

I can see MUS being one of the few that someone with dyslexia can do on their own as far as the worksheet is concerned. If they do one with you than they know how to do the subsequent sheet independently because they work the same and there won't be an issue with figuring out directions, etc.

 

That being said my son gets bored very quickly with MUS and RS has been the best fit with getting those concepts quickly and spending extra time on facts via games and computer programs. Sometimes we take breaks from concepts and focus on games and facts because memorizing facts is very difficult for him.

 

Another way to get independence is to work on math facts on the computer. It will tell them immediately if they are off. Things like TimzAttack or other facts practice. You don't want someone who struggles to memorize things to do a whole worksheet writing 6+4= 11. It will be a nightmare repairing that. Why is it that they can remember things that are wrong easier?

 

Perhaps one of these other programs would be better but thought I would mention that RS may be ok and you just need a break. I realized if you followed their curriculum without the supplemental Geometry you could end up in Algebra in 6th grade. You do not have to do a new lesson everyday.

 

A little supplement workbook on facts or BA may give you the break you need.

 

Do you combine MUS and RS or have just used both?  Does your DS get bored with MUS because you are supposed to master all the facts before moving on or does he just like the extra mix that RS throws in each lesson (starting with the oral review, geometry mixed in, etc.).  I haven't always been consistent with doing all the RS games and should re-think those. 

 

I haven't looked at TimezAttack, but the Dreambox she plays is on the computer which is nice for immediate feedback.  We tried a couple other online math games or review, but the computer pushing for speed just made her shut down and get frustrated. 

 

Maybe I just do need a break from RS.  To be honest, I've done little of it this past month and had her doing math in other ways or some days just through games.  I think that the problem with RS was more that *I* was dreading pulling it out.  I should figure out why as I make a decision to either take a break or switch to something else.

[1shortmomto4]

I pick units in BJU to work on because my little fellow masters something completely but needs time to input into his brain on his own.  He gets bored with math quickly unless it is challenging.  I only recommended the MUS based on the dyslexia/dysgraphia.  I've never held my dyslexic kiddo back in MUS (my middle child) because he hadn't fully mastered the factors.  He used a chart for awhile but now is strong on his own.  I'd keep up with the dreambox/games.  If she liked LOF do more Fred.  Maybe do the subtracting book for Fred and then work on BA.  I have found that I have to teach in units and pull stuff for various resources to keep him moving forward and challenged.  We did the RS Fractions (something that I've been trying to help him master this year) and he enjoyed the games and the visual part but wasn't making other connections.  I did some units from 2 different levels of BJU (just the workbooks) and now, finally, he's getting in with Key to Fractions books.  Go figure!  Motivation has been key - he wants to do the math older brother is doing but realized he needed the skills to do it.  Don't forget library books all about math, too.  And simple card games.  My ds also enjoyed McRuffy math which is spiral but I didn't stick with it because it was only up to grade 4 at the time.  I also use logic sets of blocks from Timberdoodle to grow that spatial gift.  :-)

 

[Bookworm4]

Ok, I'll just say this, and you can say I'm weird.   :)  My dd (ADHD, no SLDs) did RS through D, jumped to BJU, same gig with the low processing speed, and for her it took a LONG TIME for math facts to get solid.  Ds7 has his +/- cold, and I mean COLD.  Now he can't always tell you accurately what comes before 8, lol, but he has those math facts.  Things that are different?  

 

-earlier OT, lots of OT.  Remember, a lot of this difficulty with academics is because we need two sides of the brain to connect.  So anything you do for midline eventually helps.

-LOTS of work on working memory.  It's the scratchpad of the brain.

-Ronit Bird.  I swear by her.  

-drill, baby, drill.

 

My ds has them cold, and my dd took years.  My ds has ADHD/ASD plus 3 SLDs and way more going on.  Slightly higher IQ (big woop) and somewhat higher processing speed.  But the major differences are how he was taught.

 

So my suggestion, in addition of course to the OT and working memory work, is you buy the Ronit Bird Exploring Numbers with Dot Patterns ebook.  It's around $10.  It will be nice variety since you did RS.  I used RS, like RS, and I know you're going to say oh RS was so, so conceptually that you can't POSSIBLY benefit from going through those concepts again.  Try it anyway.  It's not expensive, and you can do it with skittles, m&ms, marshmallows, anything fun/cheap you have lying around.  Your cost is almost nil.  

 

Use your head and after you play the games go hey could we write an equation for that?  Then go through the concepts and write equations.  Then slowly start putting the things she has learned into an app.  I used a really ho-hum drill app that I can pull up if you want me to.  i think I paid a ridiculous price like $5.  What I liked about it was the ability to choose precise families and skip the ones we weren't ready for.  DRILL, DRILL, DRILL.  Remember, you're just starting with a few things.  It's not physically painful.  Turn the timer on it OFF.  Give her a treat when she's done.  Do it three times a day.  Do it daily, slowly working through RB, adding facts.

 

The way I did it, after we had gone through DOTS, we played her Math Turnovers game, which I think is in her free Card Games ebook.  Yes, it is.  I splurged and got the $6 ante poker cards on ebay to make it extra novel.  Now you've covered all of subtraction!  So now put those facts into the app and drill them.

 

The Eides say to drill.  This is not some torture thing.  It works and my kid knows his facts and knows them consistently.  He's now conversant on both addition, subtraction, AND doing both those with positive and negative numbers.

 

I think the RS abacus doesn't work for all kids because the dc doesn't find it a tool they want to visualize.  If you don't visualize, you AREN'T internalizing it.  So the slavonic abacus might make sense in theory, but you have to leave theory and go back to something she WILL visualize and will internalize.  RB Dots was that for us. 

 

Fwiw, I did LOTS of paper drill with my dd, also drill with some devices (Flashmaster, etc.).  No difference.  I really do think they have to visualize and internalize.  Or it was the OT and working memory stuff we've done for ds.  Definitely we've been doing ALL these things.  It's not *just* one thing. 

 

For the OT, at the time we were doing School Moves/Focus Moves.  For the working memory, a variety of things.  Games, digit spans, movement games where he has to repeat and do sequences...  You really cannot work on working memory too much.  Does she like Ticket to Ride?  It would let you work on working memory and math.  You could stop your RS and play games every day for an hour while doing 20 minutes of RB and drill.

 

DD has had other early math exposure outside of RS as well.  So if she has done well understanding math concepts you think there is still enough in Ronit Bird that she wouldn't get bored going back?  RB has intrigued me and I've thought about getting it anyway as I start to teach my younger DD.  I will take a look at RB again this evening.

 

Her working memory is good (I think it was 8 digits and in the 75th percentile on testing this year), but I know it is good to keep up with it and not lose any of it.  I actually think her WM helps compensate for slow processing speed (single digits).

 

We are in OT, but that is about to end and it's only been so-so on how helpful it has been.  I keep meaning to update my post about the OT.  I plan to start Focus Moves once we are done with the OT.

 

I asked DD how she solved math...if she counted or visualized the amounts or some other way.  She didn't know.  I know she is very visual in other areas and has visual strengths (outside of letters - she complained today in our Barton practice that they were a bunch of squiggly lines and curves without much meaning).

 

She has been wanting to learn Ticket to Ride.  Maybe tomorrow afternoon may be a fun time to pull it out.  She would love that.  I will look into the other games and drill you mentioned as well. 

 

As for the abacus, she used to like it and like using it, but she thinks that she shouldn't need it anymore and will only use it if I made her use it.  I'll have to talk to her a little bit more about the abacus and how she does (or doesn't) visualize math to get a better idea of what she uses to solve math equations.

 

[Bookworm4]

I pick units in BJU to work on because my little fellow masters something completely but needs time to input into his brain on his own. He gets bored with math quickly unless it is challenging. I only recommended the MUS based on the dyslexia/dysgraphia. I've never held my dyslexic kiddo back in MUS (my middle child) because he hadn't fully mastered the factors. He used a chart for awhile but now is strong on his own. I'd keep up with the dreambox/games. If she liked LOF do more Fred. Maybe do the subtracting book for Fred and then work on BA. I have found that I have to teach in units and pull stuff for various resources to keep him moving forward and challenged. We did the RS Fractions (something that I've been trying to help him master this year) and he enjoyed the games and the visual part but wasn't making other connections. I did some units from 2 different levels of BJU (just the workbooks) and now, finally, he's getting in with Key to Fractions books. Go figure! Motivation has been key - he wants to do the math older brother is doing but realized he needed the skills to do it. Don't forget library books all about math, too. And simple card games. My ds also enjoyed McRuffy math which is spiral but I didn't stick with it because it was only up to grade 4 at the time. I also use logic sets of blocks from Timberdoodle to grow that spatial gift. :-)

Thanks for sharing what worked for your family. I didn't know much about BJU before (one of the few math curriculums I never looked at and don't know why). That's interesting to know how you've pieced various pieces together as well. I did that some the last two years and for some reason thought I could just go straight through one thing this year (what worked best for us last year - RS), but it's not been the best fit at different times. I forgot about checking our library. I will have to check there. I have some of the sir cumference series, but would like to get some other stories that involve math too for her as she does enjoy that and remembers stories well. I haven't heard of the logic blocks from Timberdoodle and will look that up as well. I also understand what you mean about how motivation can make a difference. :)

[frogger]

Do you combine MUS and RS or have just used both?  Does your DS get bored with MUS because you are supposed to master all the facts before moving on or does he just like the extra mix that RS throws in each lesson (starting with the oral review, geometry mixed in, etc.).  I haven't always been consistent with doing all the RS games and should re-think those. 

 

I haven't looked at TimezAttack, but the Dreambox she plays is on the computer which is nice for immediate feedback.  We tried a couple other online math games or review, but the computer pushing for speed just made her shut down and get frustrated. 

 

Maybe I just do need a break from RS.  To be honest, I've done little of it this past month and had her doing math in other ways or some days just through games.  I think that the problem with RS was more that *I* was dreading pulling it out.  I should figure out why as I make a decision to either take a break or switch to something else.

 

I tried MUS before I started RightStart. I do get tired of RightStart also. I have 3 other children also so it is hard to teach everything one on one all the time but it does seem best for my hands on boy with dyslexia that really does get concepts quickly but has a hard time with math facts. I just noticed a lot of similarities in what you posted about your child and mine and that is why I mentioned it though it may not be best. It seems like everything I teach that child takes more work. All the hands on stuff, the one on one stuff, the special reading program but whenever I tried to give him a worksheet so far it has backfired. 

 

TimezAttack may be best when your child is a little older but if you want to try it now I believe there is a way to turn off the timer. There are also games here http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/math.htm

  that have both a timed mode and "relaxed" mode which is untimed. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by frogger

[Heathermomster]

Thank you for the ideas.  DD is 8, almost 9, years old.  I forgot about Beast Academy earlier.  I forgot to mention that she loves Life of Fred (we've only done it as supplemental when I remember to pull it out) so thought she may like BA.  Her subtraction isn't strong enough for BA yet though, but that will get there.  (We were going over multiplication recently in RS but it hadn't gotten to subtraction yet.)

 

I will look more at CLE and give her the placement to see where she is.  I find it interesting how they separate fact drill/practice and letting them use a math facts sheet other times.  In all honesty, she has gotten her addition down and faster just because of repeated practice between either RS games or Dreambox games.  A light unit or two is a small investment to give it a try anyway.  That is also good to know about the spacing and light units.

 

I don't understand this statement at all.  Your DD is 8 yo, almost 9 yo, so what grade is that?  She has nearly finished third grade?  

 

Prior to multiplication, she needs her subtraction and addition facts to 20 down cold. Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number addresses all the multiplication pre-skills, and I used that information to teach my DS.  If your DD can quickly look at a domino brick or die cube and instantly say the correct number from 1-6 based upon dot patterns, then the Ronit Bird c-rod e-book might be where you would want to start.

 

The ModMath app is free.  Maybe check it out and see whether your DD could benefit from that.  The dry erase board is our friend.  At one point, DS used plastic numeric fridge magnets with it so that he didn't have to write down numbers.  We drill math facts using Quizlet and the free MUS online math facts generator using the 10-key pad with the timers off.  I love the MUS blocks because they are hollow on one side and you flip the hollow side up to indicate a negative number.  You can literally see the subtraction.

 

Whatever curriculum you decide, expect modification.  I would be using the MUS blocks with whatever program I selected.  My DS requires mastery first and then periodic revisits.  I teach him a concept, and then he demonstrates understanding before I walk away.  I am typically close by to answer questions and ensure he is not practicing mistakes.  

 

Our biggest issue has been finding enough problem sets to practice with.  

Edited May 15, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Bookworm4]

I don't understand this statement at all.  Your DD is 8 yo, almost 9 yo, so what grade is that?  She has nearly finished third grade?  

 

Prior to multiplication, she needs her subtraction and addition facts to 20 down cold. Ronit Bird's Overcoming Difficulties with Number addresses all the multiplication pre-skills, and I used that information to teach my DS.  If your DD can quickly look at a domino brick or die cube and instantly say the correct number from 1-6 based upon dot patterns, then the Ronit Bird c-rod e-book might be where you would want to start.

 

The ModMath app is free.  Maybe check it out and see whether your DD could benefit from that.  The dry erase board is our friend.  At one point, DS used plastic numeric fridge magnets with it so that he didn't have to write down numbers.  We drill math facts using Quizlet and the free MUS online math facts generator using the 10-key pad with the timers off.  I love the MUS blocks because they are hollow on one side and you flip the hollow side up to indicate a negative number.  You can literally see the subtraction.

 

Whatever curriculum you decide, expect modification.  I would be using the MUS blocks with whatever program I selected.  My DS requires mastery first and then periodic revisits.  I teach him a concept, and then he demonstrates understanding before I walk away.  I am typically close by to answer questions and ensure he is not practicing mistakes.  

 

Our biggest issue has been finding enough problem sets to practice with.  

 

DD is 2nd grade.  She turns nine this summer. 

 

RS (at least the 2nd edition we have) only introduces parts of subtraction (after 4-digit addition is down cold) and then works on parts of multiplication before going back and working on subtraction.  I don't understand their scope and sequence many times which is one of the reasons I think I have struggled pulling it out much lately - that and I struggle trying to combine/modify lessons much with RS itself when DD doesn't always need all material in a lesson, but some parts may still benefit her.  I know others do it from comments I've read so it may just be me and maybe if I read through the whole thing vs a cursory overview it would help.  My guess is that they continue with multiplication before subtraction as they start with teaching multiplication as adding the same number a certain number of times. 

 

I have c-rods but have never used them with math and will look at Ronit Bird's book on them.  I will have her go through numbers on dominos and a die cube and see how quickly she responds to the numbers on them later today. 

 

I have not heard of MathMod.  I will check that out as well.  I will try out the number magnets on the dry erase board this week and see how DD responds to those as well.  I hadn't thought about those in a while.  I installed Quizlet for Barton practice but hadn't thought to use it for math.  Thanks.  I'll also look at the MUS online options more as well. DD may like the fact generator with the timer turned off.  I used one of the MUS online generators to print out some subtraction problems last week but wrote them on graph paper for her to solve.  She liked that and requested more math problems on graph paper in the future.  It did help me see just how weak her subtraction skills are with numbers between 11-20, which I had suspected.

 

I don't mind modifying any math program we use.  I need to either read through RS in more detail to see how to modify it better for DD without feeling like I'm missing something important she needs to review or cover or switch to something that is easier for me to modify.  I've been wondering lately if Ronit Bird's books would help me better know which areas to modify and when to make the modifications from a teaching standpoint. 

[Janeway]

I think MUS is a great choice.

[PeterPan]

I found RS's instruction on multiplication facts unhelpful with my dd.  I don't recommend it.  RB has a whole ebook now on multiplication.  Yes, you could get the RB Dots and go through it quickly.  

 

I have a 10 year gap in my kids.  I know where this goes and how un-pretty it is not to have these facts nailed.  That's why I went ok, you just did this with manipulatives, now here it is on a flashcard app.  And we do it lots of ways, lots of settings.  We talk it with temperature and time.  I ask him on the way to things how many minutes till we need to be there, blah blah.  We talk about how many degrees it would have to drop to snow.  That kind of thing.  So lots of settings,  lots of using it.  

 

I used BJU with dd, btw, and liked it.  Your dd has splinter skills and might not transfer well into a particular grade level right now.  

 

I have the RS hardwood fractions puzzle and just started him on it.  Do you have that?  At some point you can pick it up.  In the print books (I forget which one), RB shows a math mat where they do units but also decimals.  My mind is reeling with how we can connect decimals and fractions better.  I'm excited to do her printed lessons on this, so I thought for now we'd introduce the fractions puzzle and just play with it.  

 

Math and language have to connect, which is why the OT matters.  So for my ds, sometimes the language will be glitchy.  Is your dd like this?  I don't know if it's a homogenous thing, so I'm just throwing it out.  Like I would say hey give me two sets of two, and he'd look at me funny.  The whole concept of "of" was befuddling him.  So just to skip count was over his head.  We worked on that a long time!  That's the language-math connection.  I want to start working through some problem solving books I have lying around, because I know that's going to take time to make sure all the language means something to him.  I have some singapore best of word problem books and the TCR books.  Between the two, I think we have enough, lol.  Some of the TCR materials are really good about showing strategies for problem solving and helping them slow down and think ok it says this, this is what it looks like (draw it), and this is my equation.  

 

Just to expand on something Heather said.  RB Dots does work on visualization of the dot patterns, yes.  But it also translates directly to all your single digit addition facts. Since it sounds like those are weak, I would go through Dots quickly.  It would just lay a super quick foundation.  I prefer the dot patterns to c-rods (just me personally), and doing the dot patterns AND the c-rods AND the abacus finally gives you multiple ways to visualize the math.  Then it starts to generalize and click in the brain, kwim?  More is more better on this.  $11 and you can use it with your next dc too.  Or do them together for that matter!  How old is your next dc?  Tell the older hey I need someone to play games with Sissy, will you do it?   :)

Edited May 15, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird - Specialist in Dyscalculia and Arithmetic Difficulties

 

Fast Facts Math on the App Store - iTunes - Apple

 

I like RS's instruction on 4 digit subtraction, btw.  

[Bookworm4]

Thank you all of you for the feedback and ideas.  After thinking through this more and looking at samples, I think right now I need to focus on getting subtractions facts solid before moving into a set curriculum.  My thoughts are to use a combination of Ronit Bird and MUS for the time being until her subtraction facts are much stronger.  MUS comes to mind so I don't have to come up with all the equations to practice on my own and thus save some time (although maybe RB would do this too?).  I will also add in extra practice/games that were mentioned to help build automaticity in the basic math facts.  I do like how RS introduces/teaches 4-digit subtraction as the method was similar to how they taught 4-digit addition and that method worked well for DD.  However, I don't think she's going to be ready for that until she can easily subtract numbers from 1-20 based on what I saw last week with her and looking ahead to subtraction with borrowing/regrouping.  Feel free to point out if I'm missing something or should consider other options.

 

Heathermonster & OhElizabeth - outside of the Ronit Bird ebooks, do you recommend Overcoming Difficulty with Numbers next or one of the print books over the other (or all for that matter)?  I plan to get the 3 ebooks (even if DD doesn't need dots, I figure it will be helpful for my preschooler (age 5) as she is ready for it now and will be technically in kindergarten in the fall anyway), but wasn't sure if it would be worth purchasing a paper book as well at this point.  My older DD is usually happy to play games with the younger DD to help her understand or practice math or reading related activities.

 

I appreciate all the other ideas for extra practice/drill.  I plan to incorporate those as well.  Once I get DD's subtraction skills "caught up" with her other math skills, I will re-evaluate whether to do a combo of CLE, MUS, BJU, BA, or RS going forward when she fits better into a specific grade/level (her subtraction would currently put her in 1st grade or alpha level, but all other areas she would place in 2nd or 3rd grade depending upon the topic and scope and sequence of each curriculum).  I know RS has been good in general, but sometimes there are leaps made before DD is ready and we break from it for a while and other times I feel like some assumptions have been made that the student connects on their own and that doesn't always happen and we stop while I work on those areas with her.  I like the idea of the built in review of CLE, but can see benefits in the others (MUS, BJU, BA, etc.) as well or combination of the others as well. 

 

OhE - This is what I have for RS fractions.  Is that the puzzle you are referring to?  I don't see a wooden one on their website.  I have thought about also purchasing some of the fraction circle puzzles that were either put out by Learning Resources or Educational Insights I saw on amazon earlier this year.  I like to have concrete objects to tie the abstract to when teaching new concepts.  Also, to answer you question about math language, sometimes I think that the language can trip her up and I think what usually helps her through that is having the concrete manipulatives to work through the language and understand it better.  I always assumed it was part of the struggles of dyslexia, but don't really know if that assumption is correct.  I plan to do OT work at home each day before we start "school" for the day.  It sounds like this may help in multiple areas.  We started doing this for handwriting struggles at the OT's recommendation and it has helped some.

 

[Heathermomster]

The Overcoming book is meant for older children, so use the e-books first.  I picked up Overcoming when DS was 5th grade, and it does not provide step by step plans.  I read and implemented the ideas from the book in a way that fit my DS and the curriculum we were using at the time.

[Bookworm4]

The Overcoming book is meant for older children, so use the e-books first. I picked up Overcoming when DS was 5th grade, and it does not provide step by step plans. I read and implemented the ideas from the book in a way that fit my DS and the curriculum we were using at the time.

Thank you!

[PeterPan]

The 3 ebooks are roughly equivalent to Toolkit, so yes Overcoming would be the sequel at that point.  I like your idea of using MUS and RB!  You'll work it out, I'm sure.  

 

Just for your trivia, the 3rd print book from RB, Resource, is totally different.  It has sudoku puzzles and some extra games.  In case you were trying to figure out the differences between the books, that's it.  

 

I don't think you have to switch MUS if it works for her, mercy.  My suggestion on math is always to stay put until it stops working!  :)

 

I didn't realize the hardwood RS fractions puzzle had been discontinued.  Bummer!  Well yes, the magnets and paper versions will work too.  

[Emba]

Just throwing this out there because you mentioned right brained learning adn how your daughter learns well with stories - There is a series of "right brained" math supplements out there by Sarah Major that might help.  Right Brained Addition and Subtraction and Right Brained Multiplication and Division might be helpful?  I haven't used those, though.  I am using Right Brained Fractions right now with my daughter, and she is doing well with it.  She calls it the "fun math". In fractions, the numerator and denominator are given names, and they are the characters in the story (Num and Nom live in a house.  Nom lives downstairs, and Num lives upstrairs, etc.)

Edited May 17, 2016 by emba56

[KSinNS]

I just skimmed some of the PP (gotta run, baby waking) but MUS does have lots of review. Each lesson has 6 work-sheets-the first 3 are new material and the last 3 are new material plus comprehensive review of old material. It's a perfect amount of review. And we love, love, love the wide open worksheets. Minus-it can get dull, so some fun supplements can help. I found that Alpha did not solidify addition/subtraction facts for my dd 9, so I had to reteach that with lots of practice but beta on has been great. We have moved on at pre algebra for my oldest. For whatever reason (possibly ritalin) dD grasped her multiplication from gamma, as did my oldest. ds 8 is going to need some extra drill, though. Your plan sounds great.