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Kinsa

"What's Killing White, Middle-aged American Women?"

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This thread reminds me and maybe someone here can answer this. I am not affected by hydrocodone or oxycodone. I don't get a buzz. My pain doesn't go away. I didn't complain to the doctors because I just took 800mg ibuprofen (a doctor told me that was prescription strength) and it helped a little, but didn't take the pain away completely. I can't take Tylenol because it never helps and I can't take more than 2 at a time. Any ideas on why pain meds don't seem to work for me? My fear is I'll end up in the hospital in severe pain for some reason, and the meds won't help and the doctors will think I'm a drug seeking patient because I'll complain what they're giving isn't enough. I think I've been on one other pain med but I can't remember what it was and I don't remember that helping all that much either.

I have never heard that pain meds are meant to take all the pain away, but rather just take the edge off it.

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Oh, yes, It can happen fast. I was giving opiate painkiller after my C-section and they would only give me one every 8 hours. I had to take ibuprofen in between. Let me tell you, after 1-2 days, I wes eyeing that clock like a lunatic and as soon as the magic time for my drug hit arrived, I was whacking that nurse call button for my next dose like adrug addicted monkey. It was shocking to me because I am very much a medication-avoider. But it was too good and worked too well.

 

Our oral surgeon prescribed prescription strength Motrin to be taken on schedule and 10 pills of hydrocodone in case the Motrin were insufficient. I was hesitant for DS to take the Hydrocodone, but it was necessary, for a day or two.

 

Does one really get addicted from such a short time span?

 

I personally cannot tolerate the stuff. I had a prescription after my gallbladder surgery and it just made me nauseous and feel horrible. Guess I'm lucky.

Edited by reefgazer

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This was mentioned earlier but it bears repeating. Hospital reimbursements are tied to patient satisfaction regarding pain relief. I was watching a c-span special on opioid addiction and the hot topic of discussion in congress was holding the drug manufacturers accountable for this mess. It was a great special.

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Pain management is not an exact science. I have been near critical and had Drs not believe I was very bad off bc I didn't act like I was in as much pain as they thought I should be. I'm not particuliarly tough. I actually think I'm rather a wuss. Feeling pain is not some moral character flaw just bc someone else doesn't feel it or feel it as acutely. And being in pain does literally hamper healing and contributes to lower ability to function in general.

 

I agree we are a pill popping nation. Medicine not being about healing but rather band aiding symptoms seems to be the main problem there. And frankly, it's what our society seems to want bc it sure isn't geared towards anything we know contributes to better health outcomes. Things like preventive care, sick time off work, and so forth. Or even just pedestrian friendly communities. Even if many people find the root cause of their problem, the chances they will have the money and the time from work to properly treat it are not that great. I can't count how many people I know who know they need a major treatment, like surgery and they can't afford it or can't get time off work or don't have the family support to do it or have to wait a long time to get in. So they just keep doing stop gap measures, like pain medications, until they can, maybe, eventually get it done.

 

Even so, most people in genuine pain can take the same medications in the same doses and not be addicted. They stop cold turkey all the time without a problem.

 

So much of what many are attributing to their good sense in this thread has more to do with their community ties, inborn personality (anyone else a bit of a control freak who actually really really HATES the loopy feeling of being medicated?), and whether they tend to have addiction tendencies.

 

For example, I might be in horrible pain, but I never take meds not even benedryl unless dh is home to cover for me. Personally I don't think benedryl makes me tired and I'm not even a little worried about being addicted to it, but it says it can cause drowsiness on the package so I don't risk that that will be the one time a kid needs mom to take them to the er or calls bc their car broke down and I'm feeling a bit off and need to drive. That has nothing to do with how strong I am or how much I am hurting. It has to do with my social ties, not my pain threshold, which I actually consider very low. For all our griping at times, life is really rather decent here. I am not alone. There are millions of people who are though.

 

Some food for thought:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

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And also, wrt to medications after delivery of babies.

 

With each pregnancy, those after birth pains get worse. Not easier. For all the talk about worn out uterus (uteri?) - it contracts harder and a bit longer with each pregnancy. And no matter how natural your delivery was, that dr is going to insist on "helping it along" by injecting a dose of pitocin to "encourage it to tighten up and reduce bleeding" which escalates the after pains considerably.

 

Pain medications for the first week after delivery is not unreasonable and usually not strong enough to knock mom on her rump. It's enough that she isn't crying through every breastfeeding effort as that adds to the afterbirth pains by making them worse. By the time the Rx is done, the very worse of the after pains usually are too. My OBs always Rx percocet or Vicodin every 6-8 hours/no more than 3 X a day for the first week. Usually I didn't use them all bc I was nervous about taking meds if dh wasn't home.

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It is an epidemic.

 

I recently had an encounter with a young woman who five years ago was happily married and had a few young children. After her last c-section she became addicted to Percocet. Long story short, her addiction to opiates grew and she lost her job, her husband and her kids. She eventually accidentally overdosed and suffered a brain injury.

She has no memory of the last five years and a deeply damaged short term memory. The last thing she remembers is being deeply in love with her husband and her babies. She calls her ex husband and asks where he is and where the children are, sometimes several times a day. He or her parents gently tell her again that he is married to someone else now and that his new wife is raising her children. Sometimes they are kind and just tell her they'll be home later. Her heartbreak is incredible.

 

I truly believe it was the closest thing to hell I've ever witnessed. (Some minor details changed to protect privacy)

 

This is SO sad.  Lord have mercy on her and the children... and the two other adults!  Truly sad.

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Pain management is not an exact science. I have been near critical and had Drs not believe I was very bad off bc I didn't act like I was in as much pain as they thought I should be. I'm not particuliarly tough. I actually think I'm rather a wuss. Feeling pain is not some moral character flaw just bc someone else doesn't feel it or feel it as acutely. And being in pain does literally hamper healing and contributes to lower ability to function in general.

 

I agree we are a pill popping nation. Medicine not being about healing but rather band aiding symptoms seems to be the main problem there. And frankly, it's what our society seems to want bc it sure isn't geared towards anything we know contributes to better health outcomes. Things like preventive care, sick time off work, and so forth. Or even just pedestrian friendly communities. Even if many people find the root cause of their problem, the chances they will have the money and the time from work to properly treat it are not that great. I can't count how many people I know who know they need a major treatment, like surgery and they can't afford it or can't get time off work or don't have the family support to do it or have to wait a long time to get in. So they just keep doing stop gap measures, like pain medications, until they can, maybe, eventually get it done.

 

Even so, most people in genuine pain can take the same medications in the same doses and not be addicted. They stop cold turkey all the time without a problem.

 

So much of what many are attributing to their good sense in this thread has more to do with their community ties, inborn personality (anyone else a bit of a control freak who actually really really HATES the loopy feeling of being medicated?), and whether they tend to have addiction tendencies.

 

For example, I might be in horrible pain, but I never take meds not even benedryl unless dh is home to cover for me. Personally I don't think benedryl makes me tired and I'm not even a little worried about being addicted to it, but it says it can cause drowsiness on the package so I don't risk that that will be the one time a kid needs mom to take them to the er or calls bc their car broke down and I'm feeling a bit off and need to drive. That has nothing to do with how strong I am or how much I am hurting. It has to do with my social ties, not my pain threshold, which I actually consider very low. For all our griping at times, life is really rather decent here. I am not alone. There are millions of people who are though.

 

Some food for thought:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-real-cause-of-addicti_b_6506936.html

 

I definitely agree that one's pain threshold is not a moral quality.  Mine happens to be quite high. 

 

However, how do we know the bolded?  Have studies shown that pain inhibits healing?  How much pain does it take to actually inhibit healing? 

 

I ask, because last summer I pulled a muscle in my left shoulder and thought I might be having a heart attack.  I went to the ER, and they insisted on giving me morphine (which was a pain, haha, because my husband and a neighbor had to arrange to go pick up my truck... small problems, I know).  After determining that there was nothing wrong with my heart, the Dr. wrote me a pain prescription and a motrin prescription.  When I asked him if the pain meds would matter to the actual healing, if I SHOULD take it, he kind of shrugged and said I didn't NEED to, but could it I wanted.  I didn't fill it. 

 

Knowing that I wasn't going to die of anything (!!), I was able to use a heating pad and motrin, and to fix the muscle strain by sleeping without a pillow for a month. 

 

Pain meds would have reduced my ability to drive, to teach my kids, etc.  The meds would have reduced my ability to function more than the pain did.

 

I suspect that for medical people, pain is a problem that must be solved.  You have pain?  They can fix that.  For me, it might not be necessary to solve that symptom all the time (and obviously I'm not talking about really serious pain; I'm talking about incidental, can-deal pain).

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And also, wrt to medications after delivery of babies.

 

With each pregnancy, those after birth pains get worse. Not easier. For all the talk about worn out uterus (uteri?) - it contracts harder and a bit longer with each pregnancy. And no matter how natural your delivery was, that dr is going to insist on "helping it along" by injecting a dose of pitocin to "encourage it to tighten up and reduce bleeding" which escalates the after pains considerably.

 

Pain medications for the first week after delivery is not unreasonable and usually not strong enough to knock mom on her rump. It's enough that she isn't crying through every breastfeeding effort as that adds to the afterbirth pains by making them worse. By the time the Rx is done, the very worse of the after pains usually are too. My OBs always Rx percocet or Vicodin every 6-8 hours/no more than 3 X a day for the first week. Usually I didn't use them all bc I was nervous about taking meds if dh wasn't home.

 

So true. I had after pains with the last one that were way worse than labor. I did labor unmedicated but took advil round the clock for the afterpains, as well as some tincture that helped, and would have welcomed a vicodin or two. 

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I suspect that for medical people, pain is a problem that must be solved.  You have pain?  They can fix that.  For me, it might not be necessary to solve that symptom all the time (and obviously I'm not talking about really serious pain; I'm talking about incidental, can-deal pain).

 

It is important to control pain at the outset, because even pain that is associated with non-serious symptoms can become chronic if not addressed and can persist after the organic cause has disappeared. Chronic pain is extremely difficult to manage, so I believe the current wisdom of pain management is to address pain promptly so that the neural connections do not develop the chronic response. Of course, this should be done judiciously and does not necessarily have to involve opiates. But treating the pain itself is important to ward of future problems. (My sister is an anesthesiologist and we had conversations about this)

So yes, for medical people pain is a problem that has to be solved, even if the underlying cause is not serious.

Edited by regentrude
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That's interesting.  Thank you!  I'll have to read up on that.  I didn't know chronic pain developed that way.

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Sometimes we take a leap of faith and find out it works for us.  That was my experience.

 

I do think there is enough information out there to justify a leap of faith.  I'm sure there would be statistics if there were a significant number of people being killed or injured by chiropractors.  We would hear about it.  But we don't.  So it must be relatively safe.  We hear plenty about medical malpractice.  Possibly the reason it costs so much more to go to an MD is that medical malpractice insurance is so high.  Why isn't that the case with chiropractors?

 

I'm sure there are bad chiropractors.  I wouldn't go to the ones who sent me ads after my last car accident.  :p  I wouldn't go to the lawyers either.  :p  Like with an MD, you go in there physically and get a feel for the practice and the practitioner.

 

 

There is almost no information that says that chiropractor care works, even though it has been studied a lot.

 

There is some information that suggests that if you have acute back pain, it can give short term relief.  Whether more or less than other therapies like massage is questionable.

 

The theory, as hornblower said, is pretty woo, it's basically something a guy made up.

 

So - I can see trying it if you were desperate, but I can't see using it otherwise.  I tend to think it works like most hands-on bodily manipulations.

 

And all this is aside from the other kinds of health benefits most claim, which always makes me think their judgement is not very trustworthy.

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So true. I had after pains with the last one that were way worse than labor. I did labor unmedicated but took advil round the clock for the afterpains, as well as some tincture that helped, and would have welcomed a vicodin or two. 

Yep. I can see taking major pain pills just for the after birth with my last 2 I was popping max doses of ibuprofen as soon as they were out and I had taken nothing at all for the labor(they were born at home). Afterbirth pains were WAY worse than labor and just keep coming for days. I've only had 4 kids, I shudder to think how much worse it gets, knowing how it increased with each birth.

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My dh was on a bunch of pain meds about a year and a half ago, and then again about 6 months ago (various neck issues).

 

No one ever mentioned to him the withdrawl symptoms he would experience. He felt like bugs were crawling all over him, his restless leg syndrome got 100x worse, he couldn't sleep for more than about 2 hours a night, his ADHD symptoms flew through the roof. He was utterly miserable and it lasted for about 2 weeks.

 

And he had to go to work with all those symptoms. He was pretty furious that no one ever mentioned that he'd go through real withdrawl symptoms, just like an addict, even though he did not use the drugs more than was minimally required.

 

And mostly the drugs made him loopy. There are two full weeks of his life of which he has zero memory. It took me about a week to figure out that his short term memory was non-existent. He kept harping and harping on an issue with me and I kept arguing my point over and over it was driving me crazy, until I realized that he had no memories of the first 15 times we discussed the topic. Each and every time, it felt like the first time we were discussing it to him.

 

Those drugs are scary.

Edited by Garga
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This thread reminds me and maybe someone here can answer this. I am not affected by hydrocodone or oxycodone. I don't get a buzz. My pain doesn't go away. I didn't complain to the doctors because I just took 800mg ibuprofen (a doctor told me that was prescription strength) and it helped a little, but didn't take the pain away completely. I can't take Tylenol because it never helps and I can't take more than 2 at a time. Any ideas on why pain meds don't seem to work for me? My fear is I'll end up in the hospital in severe pain for some reason, and the meds won't help and the doctors will think I'm a drug seeking patient because I'll complain what they're giving isn't enough. I think I've been on one other pain med but I can't remember what it was and I don't remember that helping all that much either.

 

I kinda have a similar issue.  Even when I've had dental procedures they have to keep giving me more numbing stuff after giving me a lot because it just does not work that well.  Once I was put out for a dental procedure and the doctor said I woke up three times and they had to keep knocking me out again.  I did not realize I had done that. 

 

When I had the bad back pain they had me try the high dose of Ibuprofen and that did nothing at all.  They gave me strong stuff and that didn't even take the edge off of it.  Which was why I started feeling so freaking desperate about it.

 

I have no clue why this is. 

Edited by SparklyUnicorn

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My dh was on a bunch of pain meds about a year and a half ago, and then again about 6 months ago (various neck issues).

 

No one ever mentioned to him the withdrawl symptoms he would experience. He felt like bugs were crawling all over him, his restless leg syndrome got 100x worse, he couldn't sleep for more than about 2 hours a night, his ADHD symptoms flew through the roof. He was utterly miserable and it lasted for about 2 weeks.

 

And he had to go to work with all those symptoms. He was pretty furious that no one ever mentioned that he'd go through real withdrawl symptoms, just like an addict, even though he did not use the drugs more than was minimally required.

 

And mostly the drugs made him loopy. There are two full weeks of his life of which he has zero memory. It took me about a week to figure out that his short term memory was non-existent. He kept harping and harping on an issue with me and I kept arguing my point over and over it was driving me crazy, until I realized that he had no memories of the first 15 times we discussed the topic. Each and every time, it felt like the first time we were discussing it to him.

 

Those drugs are scary.

 

That's sucky.  You think they would have weaned him off to make that a little less crazy.

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There is almost no information that says that chiropractor care works, even though it has been studied a lot.

 

There is some information that suggests that if you have acute back pain, it can give short term relief. Whether more or less than other therapies like massage is questionable.

 

The theory, as hornblower said, is pretty woo, it's basically something a guy made up.

 

So - I can see trying it if you were desperate, but I can't see using it otherwise. I tend to think it works like most hands-on bodily manipulations.

 

And all this is aside from the other kinds of health benefits most claim, which always makes me think their judgement is not very trustworthy.

This is flat out not true. Chiropractic care has been just as proven to work. In fact, good chiropractic care is usually just more intensive physical therapy.

 

You say "hands-on bodily manipulations" like there's no medical term for that. It's called physical/occupational therapies/chiropractic care.

 

It's not a cure all and some people are more skilled that others, just like any other medical field. But there's plenty of evidence if done properly that it does a lot of good.

 

The biggest problem is most people can't afford it and or they wait too long to seek help and do long term damage to themselves. Also, people want to treat therapies like pills. I took my pills so I should be cured now. The chiropractor or physical therapist is a quack bc their leg or shoulder or whatever keeps giving them problems. Ignoring that they keep doing what is causing the problem and or that they have a damage that is just always going to need some work at times.

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This is flat out not true. Chiropractic care has been just as proven to work. In fact, good chiropractic care is usually just more intensive physical therapy.

 

You say "hands-on bodily manipulations" like there's no medical term for that. It's called physical/occupational therapies/chiropractic care.

 

It's not a cure all and some people are more skilled that others, just like any other medical field. But there's plenty of evidence if done properly that it does a lot of good.

 

The biggest problem is most people can't afford it and or they wait too long to seek help and do long term damage to themselves. Also, people want to treat therapies like pills. I took my pills so I should be cured now. The chiropractor or physical therapist is a quack bc their leg or shoulder or whatever keeps giving them problems. Ignoring that they keep doing what is causing the problem and or that they have a damage that is just always going to need some work at times.

 

No, no it hasn't.  I don't know where you are etting this idea, but studies on chiropractic care are very limited in the benefits they show.  You can easily look at the Chocran review for an overview of all the studies on chiropractic care. 

 

And it is not the same as occupational therapy, massage therapy, etc,. It is a very specific system of care with it's own approach and theory of how the body works.  All of them do involve various hand-n manipulations, and there rare others as well - things like rolfing.  They have differences and different foundational theories, and it's entirely possible one may be well-grounded and another is simply ineffective.

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This is flat out not true. Chiropractic care has been just as proven to work. In fact, good chiropractic care is usually just more intensive physical therapy.

 

You say "hands-on bodily manipulations" like there's no medical term for that. It's called physical/occupational therapies/chiropractic care.

 

It's not a cure all and some people are more skilled that others, just like any other medical field. But there's plenty of evidence if done properly that it does a lot of good.

 

The biggest problem is most people can't afford it and or they wait too long to seek help and do long term damage to themselves. Also, people want to treat therapies like pills. I took my pills so I should be cured now. The chiropractor or physical therapist is a quack bc their leg or shoulder or whatever keeps giving them problems. Ignoring that they keep doing what is causing the problem and or that they have a damage that is just always going to need some work at times.

 

I do believe for some stuff yes this is true.  My insurance covers chiro (as do many insurance companies), so I doubt they'd be covering something that was a total sham.  BUT a lot of chiros offer some services that really aren't stuff that has been proven to work.  Some sell diet supplements and peddle various eating plans.  Not sure how chiro is connected to that or how it makes them experts on diets. 

 

They sometimes claim they are successful at treating certain conditions for which there is not much evidence that that is true or that could be easily explained by other reasons.  For example, many claim to be able to cure an ear infection.  Many ear infections resolve on their own without medication. 

 

 

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I do believe for some stuff yes this is true. My insurance covers chiro (as do many insurance companies), so I doubt they'd be covering something that was a total sham. BUT a lot of chiros offer some services that really aren't stuff that has been proven to work. Some sell diet supplements and peddle various eating plans. Not sure how chiro is connected to that or how it makes them experts on diets.

 

They sometimes claim they are successful at treating certain conditions for which there is not much evidence that that is true or that could be easily explained by other reasons. For example, many claim to be able to cure an ear infection. Many ear infections resolve on their own without medication.

 

 

I don't see how it's any different than other doctors who peddle supplements or prescriptions. None of mine do bc I don't have much tolerance for that. But I've been to Obs who did, pediatricians and GPs and Heaven help anyone who has to meet with a dietitian bc they sure did.

 

Many chiropractors and other Drs (all my chiropractors are Drs. But for some reason people seem to forget that aspect.) are starting to offer more holistic and overall care. I might not like how all Drs do it, but I don't think it is necessarily quackery to do so either.

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I don't see how it's any different than other doctors who peddle supplements or prescriptions. None of mine do bc I don't have much tolerance for that. But I've been to Obs who did, pediatricians and GPs and Heaven help anyone who has to meet with a dietitian bc they sure did.

 

Many chiropractors and other Drs (all my chiropractors are Drs. But for some reason people seem to forget that aspect.) are starting to offer more holistic and overall care. I might not like how all Drs do it, but I don't think it is necessarily quackery to do so either.

 

I've never gone to a doctor who peddled either of those things.  Yes they do write prescriptions, but these are drugs that generally had to pass through some sort of scrutiny.  In particular I never went to a doctor who tried to sell me supplements they personally profited from. 

 

I believe you that there are some docs who do that.  I just haven't encountered one and I would wonder about it. 

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My dh was on a bunch of pain meds about a year and a half ago, and then again about 6 months ago (various neck issues).

 

No one ever mentioned to him the withdrawl symptoms he would experience. He felt like bugs were crawling all over him, his restless leg syndrome got 100x worse, he couldn't sleep for more than about 2 hours a night, his ADHD symptoms flew through the roof. He was utterly miserable and it lasted for about 2 weeks.

 

And he had to go to work with all those symptoms. He was pretty furious that no one ever mentioned that he'd go through real withdrawl symptoms, just like an addict, even though he did not use the drugs more than was minimally required.

 

And mostly the drugs made him loopy. There are two full weeks of his life of which he has zero memory. It took me about a week to figure out that his short term memory was non-existent. He kept harping and harping on an issue with me and I kept arguing my point over and over it was driving me crazy, until I realized that he had no memories of the first 15 times we discussed the topic. Each and every time, it felt like the first time we were discussing it to him.

 

Those drugs are scary.

 

It sounds like he metabolizes it really slowly, so was getting a higher dose relatively than a person normally would. My mother is like that, and has to take half doses, which work for her the way a full dose does for a normal person. Meanwhile, my father and I are ultra rapid metabolizers, so a dose wears off WAY sooner than it is supposed to, and you can give us high doses with minimal loopy side effects. (the man once flat out asked the pharmacist, when he was desperate from pain "how many of these darvicet would it take to kill me? I don't want to take that many, but the prescribed dose is NOT working, so I need to know how many I can safely take.")  

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that that is NOT how say, a vicodin, normally works. You feel a bit happy, but not crazy like that. 

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I've never gone to a doctor who peddled either of those things. Yes they do write prescriptions, but these are drugs that generally had to pass through some sort of scrutiny. In particular I never went to a doctor who tried to sell me supplements they personally profited from.

 

I believe you that there are some docs who do that. I just haven't encountered one and I would wonder about it.

Drs regularly write prescriptions for things that don't even actually need a prescription.

Like vitamins. I've never been to an Ob who didn't write a prescription for prenatal vitamins.

It's not even slightly unusual. And drug companies visit Drs for a reason. There's considerable incentive sometimes, even if it is unconscious and they are just recommending the prescription bc it happens to be the one the pharm rep mentioned and they aren't familiar with the others available.

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Doctors selling supplements is allowed, in the US anyway, but it's considered pretty dodgy in terms of medical ethics.

​

There are chiropractors who are MDs, but most aren't.  They have training that means they are allowed to call themselves doctors of chiropractic, just like a naturopath can be called a doctor, or a dentist.  But in none of those cases (even the MD) does it in itself tell us its a good system.

 

I would love to see the studies showing chiropractic care to be effective beyond what I already said.

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Drs regularly write prescriptions for things that don't even actually need a prescription.

Like vitamins. I've never been to an Ob who didn't write a prescription for prenatal vitamins.

It's not even slightly unusual. And drug companies visit Drs for a reason. There's considerable incentive sometimes, even if it is unconscious and they are just recommending the prescription bc it happens to be the one the pharm rep mentioned and they aren't familiar with the others available.

 

Writing a presecription is not the same as selling a supplement or drug.  If a doctor writes a prescription, you go somewhere else to fill it.  If someone tells you you need a supplement and then you buy it from him, that sets up a conflict of interest.

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I do believe for some stuff yes this is true.  My insurance covers chiro (as do many insurance companies), so I doubt they'd be covering something that was a total sham.  BUT a lot of chiros offer some services that really aren't stuff that has been proven to work.  Some sell diet supplements and peddle various eating plans.  Not sure how chiro is connected to that or how it makes them experts on diets. 

 

They sometimes claim they are successful at treating certain conditions for which there is not much evidence that that is true or that could be easily explained by other reasons.  For example, many claim to be able to cure an ear infection.  Many ear infections resolve on their own without medication. 

 

 

True. I have been to two chiropracters and know of another pretty well. One was a jerk, had everyone do the same "treatments" that they billed tons for, including fancy tables that did nothing more than the massage chair at my nail salon does. Idiots, and it was like a used car sales floor with them trying to upset you. I never went back.

 

The other is professional,and makes no claims other than to treat muskular/skeletal pain. I went for adjustments when pregnant hoping it would help with some pain, and it did a bit. But I became a true believer post partum when I went in after torquing my upper back while pushing the baby out. I had twisted to grab something and whatever I did it HURT. It was the worst pain I felt, and that was after pushing out a 10 lb baby with no drugs. I finally dragged my butt into the office and in seconds he fixed it. NO pain. I later had achilles heel pain, a year later. I went, hoping chiropractic could help, and knowing he'd worked with a sports team in the past. The first visit he manipulated my ankle and no real improvement. The next visit he manipulated my knee and the achilles pain was instantly gone. Instant. I don't believe it was placebo effect because if that was the case the pain would have gone away at the first visit, not the second. I had no reason to believe an issue in my knee was causing the ankle pain. But he rotated something a bit, and it worked. I trust that office and will use them again. No up selling, no trying to get me to come back constantly. 

 

The last one I haven't been to, and never will. She believes she can cure anything with chiropractic and essential oils. She recently told someone on Facebook that they don't need surgery for a hernia, they should just try some lemon essential oils! So yeah, total quack, will never go to her. 

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It sounds like he metabolizes it really slowly, so was getting a higher dose relatively than a person normally would. My mother is like that, and has to take half doses, which work for her the way a full dose does for a normal person. Meanwhile, my father and I are ultra rapid metabolizers, so a dose wears off WAY sooner than it is supposed to, and you can give us high doses with minimal loopy side effects. (the man once flat out asked the pharmacist, when he was desperate from pain "how many of these darvicet would it take to kill me? I don't want to take that many, but the prescribed dose is NOT working, so I need to know how many I can safely take.")

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that that is NOT how say, a vicodin, normally works. You feel a bit happy, but not crazy like that.

Or he could have just had an adverse reaction to that particuliar drug. Demerol makes me a freakin mess. Hallucinations and that skin crawling sensation and doesn't do anything for the back labor pain. If anything I swear it makes the pain WORSE bc I lose track of time so it feels constant and all my emotional and reasoning coping mechanisms fly out the window. Lucky me being the 3% to have that reaction to it. Vicodin and Percocet just make me comfortable by lessening the pain. Codeine makes me feel like someone is slowly putting a pillow over my face and nauseated.

 

Again, another demonstration that pain medication is not an exact science.

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True. I have been to two chiropracters and know of another pretty well. One was a jerk, had everyone do the same "treatments" that they billed tons for, including fancy tables that did nothing more than the massage chair at my nail salon does. Idiots, and it was like a used car sales floor with them trying to upset you. I never went back.

 

The other is professional,and makes no claims other than to treat muskular/skeletal pain. I went for adjustments when pregnant hoping it would help with some pain, and it did a bit. But I became a true believer post partum when I went in after torquing my upper back while pushing the baby out. I had twisted to grab something and whatever I did it HURT. It was the worst pain I felt, and that was after pushing out a 10 lb baby with no drugs. I finally dragged my butt into the office and in seconds he fixed it. NO pain. I later had achilles heel pain, a year later. I went, hoping chiropractic could help, and knowing he'd worked with a sports team in the past. The first visit he manipulated my ankle and no real improvement. The next visit he manipulated my knee and the achilles pain was instantly gone. Instant. I don't believe it was placebo effect because if that was the case the pain would have gone away at the first visit, not the second. I had no reason to believe an issue in my knee was causing the ankle pain. But he rotated something a bit, and it worked. I trust that office and will use them again. No up selling, no trying to get me to come back constantly. 

 

The last one I haven't been to, and never will. She believes she can cure anything with chiropractic and essential oils. She recently told someone on Facebook that they don't need surgery for a hernia, they should just try some lemon essential oils! So yeah, total quack, will never go to her. 

 

Yes my insurance will cover chiro to treat pain and stuff like that, but not the other stuff some of them offer. 

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There is almost no information that says that chiropractor care works, even though it has been studied a lot.

 

There is some information that suggests that if you have acute back pain, it can give short term relief.  Whether more or less than other therapies like massage is questionable.

 

The theory, as hornblower said, is pretty woo, it's basically something a guy made up.

 

So - I can see trying it if you were desperate, but I can't see using it otherwise.  I tend to think it works like most hands-on bodily manipulations.

 

And all this is aside from the other kinds of health benefits most claim, which always makes me think their judgement is not very trustworthy.

 

Well, it works for me and my kids, so I don't care who calls it woo.  :)

 

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Doctors selling supplements is allowed, in the US anyway, but it's considered pretty dodgy in terms of medical ethics.

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There are chiropractors who are MDs, but most aren't.  They have training that means they are allowed to call themselves doctors of chiropractic, just like a naturopath can be called a doctor, or a dentist.  But in none of those cases (even the MD) does it in itself tell us its a good system.

 

I would love to see the studies showing chiropractic care to be effective beyond what I already said.

 

Yeah I admit I probably would  not go back to a doctor who tried to sell me supplements.  The exception might be a dermatologist. 

 

I guess I just don't generally believe most of this stuff does anything.  There was a point where I tried a lot of various supplements wondering if they'd do what they claimed.  They really didn't. 

I mean I see nothing wrong in trying it if someone wants to try it.  Sometimes believing something will help literally makes it help.  Placebo affect has been proven to be a real thing. 

 

Plus anything you take...even if it's a supplement could cause you problems.  I think people seem to assume that these things are rarely harmful.  I don't know about that.  If you take something prescribed usually they know what lousy stuff it can do to you.  (Not that all of that is perfect..definitely not.)

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For example, many claim to be able to cure an ear infection.  Many ear infections resolve on their own without medication. 

 

 

 

Are we holding MDs to the same standard though?  The ear infection for example.  Why aren't we saying MDs are ineffective and allopathy is a sham because they claim to treat ear infections though many infections resolve on their own without medication?  (And the one time I went to an MD for an ear infection, they prescribed 3 kinds of meds, one of which made me so loopy I had a car accident the next day after taking it, and I still couldn't hear for over a month.)

 

So again - with all the things MDs don't cure, why are we not holding them to the same standard as chiros?

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I had an MD that I respected.  I did research to find one I liked, and I picked her because she advertised that a holistic approach.  She did prescribe to me Alive vitamins, some vit. D, fish oil, and to cut my milk consumption.  Those helped.  She was not one to push anything but rather discussed the pros and cons.  Unfortunately she moved across the country about a year after I found her.  :/

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Are we holding MDs to the same standard though?  The ear infection for example.  Why aren't we saying MDs are ineffective and allopathy is a sham because they claim to treat ear infections though many infections resolve on their own without medication?  (And the one time I went to an MD for an ear infection, they prescribed 3 kinds of meds, one of which made me so loopy I had a car accident the next day after taking it, and I still couldn't hear for over a month.)

 

So again - with all the things MDs don't cure, why are we not holding them to the same standard as chiros?

 

We hold them to a higher standard of care. There are clinical practice guidelines which are not only evidence based, they're science based medicine. 

 

When there is uncertainty or insufficient data for clinical guidelines, the patient is informed of that and given the options along with what we know. I have a condition right now where the clinical guidelines are "hmmm, we don't really know. Insufficient research. You could do this. Or this. Or even this."  My physicians tell me what is known, the extent to which we know it, and help me make an informed decision on my treatment. 

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Are we holding MDs to the same standard though?  The ear infection for example.  Why aren't we saying MDs are ineffective and allopathy is a sham because they claim to treat ear infections though many infections resolve on their own without medication?  (And the one time I went to an MD for an ear infection, they prescribed 3 kinds of meds, one of which made me so loopy I had a car accident the next day after taking it, and I still couldn't hear for over a month.)

 

So again - with all the things MDs don't cure, why are we not holding them to the same standard as chiros?

 

Well, the standard of care these days is to do nothing about most ear infections, other than comfort measures.

 

For various reasons many do more - often they are old-fashioned or they do it at patient pressure.  It's a problem though, especially when it involves antibiotics.

 

Many treatments may work, but won't always.  We know that for most people who take drugs for cholesterol, it will do nothing substantial.  Many doctors who use a mechanistic approach automatically put everyone with high cholesterol on drugs, which is poor practice.  And patients sometimes find it hard to think about how what is statistically significant effect may not translate into meeting their real health goals.

 

But the point is, generally there is some kind of evidence based standard of care, there is information about how we might expect something to work.  We can see if doctors are using therapies properly or meeting the standard of care.  Over time, when something is shown to be ineffective (most episiotomies say) we will see its use decrease.  And if it doesn't, we should be questioning it.

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I still feel skeptical about the MDs criticizing the chiropractors.  Meanwhile the chiropractors criticize the MDs.  They are in direct competition.  Healthy skepticism is appropriate on both sides.  Just because it's in a medical journal doesn't mean God wrote it.  We don't give that much credibility to any other business when it's criticizing its competition.

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We hold them to a higher standard of care. There are clinical practice guidelines which are not only evidence based, they're science based medicine.

 

When there is uncertainty or insufficient data for clinical guidelines, the patient is informed of that and given the options along with what we know. I have a condition right now where the clinical guidelines are "hmmm, we don't really know. Insufficient research. You could do this. Or this. Or even this." My physicians tell me what is known, the extent to which we know it, and help me make an informed decision on my treatment.

Yeah. Well. Someone should inform obstetrics about that. *grumbles about how much of maternity care doesn't have diddly to do with clinical evidence*

 

But it's getting off topic so I'll keep most of my grumbles to myself.

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I still feel skeptical about the MDs criticizing the chiropractors. Meanwhile the chiropractors criticize the MDs. They are in direct competition. Healthy skepticism is appropriate on both sides. Just because it's in a medical journal doesn't mean God wrote it. We don't give that much credibility to any other business when it's criticizing its competition.

Mine aren't even slightly competing.

 

My chiropractor will tell me up front if I need to see a different kind of dr. And my other Drs don't really care who I see or why. I mean they say they do, but they never seem actually take anything into account, so I'm doubtful. They have their checklist. And it doesn't seem to matterwhinthe patient is or whatever. They have this list they work through for all of them and when they have gone down the list, they say, "oh no! I'll send you to this other guy - he has a longer list."

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Maternity care is notorious for being non-evidence based.

 

That I believe. 

 

My kids are only about 4 years apart and even within that time they changed a lot of stuff they did to me.  They'd say oh we no longer do that now.  Or now we do this.  Wow..ok.  LOL

 

So given that they put me through a lot of hell and crap for nothing the first time around. 

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Yep. I can see taking major pain pills just for the after birth with my last 2 I was popping max doses of ibuprofen as soon as they were out and I had taken nothing at all for the labor(they were born at home). Afterbirth pains were WAY worse than labor and just keep coming for days. I've only had 4 kids, I shudder to think how much worse it gets, knowing how it increased with each birth.

This isn't universal, though. My worst afterpains were with my second. With my fourth they were no worse than menstrual cramps. I never took anything stronger than ibuprofin either.

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And also, wrt to medications after delivery of babies.

 

With each pregnancy, those after birth pains get worse. Not easier. For all the talk about worn out uterus (uteri?) - it contracts harder and a bit longer with each pregnancy. And no matter how natural your delivery was, that dr is going to insist on "helping it along" by injecting a dose of pitocin to "encourage it to tighten up and reduce bleeding" which escalates the after pains considerably.

 

Pain medications for the first week after delivery is not unreasonable and usually not strong enough to knock mom on her rump. It's enough that she isn't crying through every breastfeeding effort as that adds to the afterbirth pains by making them worse. By the time the Rx is done, the very worse of the after pains usually are too. My OBs always Rx percocet or Vicodin every 6-8 hours/no more than 3 X a day for the first week. Usually I didn't use them all bc I was nervous about taking meds if dh wasn't home.

 

This is where my high pain threshold comes in. My last two babies were vaginal deliveries with pitocin and no pain meds. The after birth pain was handled with ibuprofen. I would not have wanted to take anything stronger while breastfeeding.

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This is where my high pain threshold comes in. My last two babies were vaginal deliveries with pitocin and no pain meds. The after birth pain was handled with ibuprofen. I would not have wanted to take anything stronger while breastfeeding.

Just an aside - most medications ARE compatible with breastfeeding, & this is esp true in the very early days when there is little volume of milk being transferred.

 

I believe too many women think they have to make a choice between dealing with pain (or their chronic condition) and breastfeeding. It's just not true.

 

 

 

& total aside, I had really no afterpains. I homebirthed a 9.5lb baby with nothing during & nothing after.

 

But I had morphine for kidney stones because for me kidney stones are worse than delivering 9.5 lb babies LOL

Edited by hornblower
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Yes. There are plenty of safe pain relief options for breastfeeding mothers. And being in pain is not the most conductive to breastfeeding either.

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It is important to control pain at the outset, because even pain that is associated with non-serious symptoms can become chronic if not addressed and can persist after the organic cause has disappeared. Chronic pain is extremely difficult to manage, so I believe the current wisdom of pain management is to address pain promptly so that the neural connections do not develop the chronic response. Of course, this should be done judiciously and does not necessarily have to involve opiates. But treating the pain itself is important to ward of future problems. (My sister is an anesthesiologist and we had conversations about this)

So yes, for medical people pain is a problem that has to be solved, even if the underlying cause is not serious.

 

This is interesting, so thanks for posting it.  I'll need to investigate it more when I'm not on a super busy weekend.

 

I know as I age I'm getting far more pain tolerant (assuming there is pain with some things others feel pain with, but I don't).  I think it's always been high though - even from my youth.  I just know things that semi bugged me before, don't now, and I know things like nerve testing that others tell me are super painful are things I don't feel much of or at all.  Then too, folks often ask how I got bruises (when I get them - not always or worrisome).  I (usually) have no idea.  I live on a farm.  I did something.  I just never felt it. (There are times I actually remember what it was, but I still never felt it - I just figured there'd be a bruise.)

 

But in areas where I do get pain, those are getting worse.  They also happen to be in areas that might not be fixable (sigh).  The last option I was given seemed to be (upon google investigation) more management "recreational drug users love them" pills that also cause fatigue and mental confusion.  No thank you.  I don't want fatigue.  I definitely don't want mental confusion.  And I've no desire to get hooked on anything.  I've been working on dealing with the (generally escalating, but still variable) pain wondering just how long I can put up with it (on bad days) before it drives me insane (good days help, but they're not pain free good days - they're just much better than bad days).

 

I'll have to investigate and ponder whether it makes sense to try to stop a potential chronic issue or if I still don't want to deal with med issues - or even if it's all related.  It's a new (to me) idea to look at it from that angle.

 

Then too - how long before it gets past the point of no return?

 

Tons of questions. It's at least 4 days before I might get time to follow up on them, but nonetheless - worthy of being on my "to do" queue, so thanks!

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I didn't like taking pain stuff when I had bad back pain after delivering my second.  But not because of breastfeeding (I didn't breastfeed).  It was because those things made me even more tired or loopy.  It's not a real solution under those circumstances. 

 

I was angry for awhile because had I been sent to PT right off the bat I could have avoided spending almost an entire year in dire pain.  Even the PT person herself said she sends this information to OBs about her services related to pain and injury from childbirth.  I really don't understand why I was dismissed like that.

 

I literally could not walk out of the hospital upright after.  Nobody said anything about it.  I went to several doctors before getting relief. 

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Does anyone else get miffed that they can find out more info on a basic message board than they do from the doctor handing out the meds to treat something?

 

I know I have my ideal world and live in the real world, but sometimes those two shouldn't be that far apart, right?

 

Or am I just really strange in strongly believing that if I'm going to do/take something, there had better be a good, solid (scientific?) reason for it?  I can't come up with a time I did anything "just because so and so said I should."  I either need to already understand why ("Hey, stop sign... you better stop!) or I need reasons why  I should adjust Plan A.

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I didn't like taking pain stuff when I had bad back pain after delivering my second. But not because of breastfeeding (I didn't breastfeed). It was because those things made me even more tired or loopy. It's not a real solution under those circumstances.

 

I was angry for awhile because had I been sent to PT right off the bat I could have avoided spending almost an entire year in dire pain. Even the PT person herself said she sends this information to OBs about her services related to pain and injury from childbirth. I really don't understand why I was dismissed like that.

 

I literally could not walk out of the hospital upright after. Nobody said anything about it. I went to several doctors before getting relief.

I have a good friend who is a PT and she is stunned by my deliveries. She says if a patient was in the condition I was in after several of my deliveries in any other department besides maternity - there's no way in hell they'd leave without at least a PT consult. I think she's just optimistic. Truth is she sees only who she sees. She never sees all the patients she is never called to. Did that make sense? Edited by Murphy101

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As far as chiropractic goes... The theory makes no sense. Like absolute poppycock. But the thing is, I've been to several who have done amazing things for my back. I've also been to some who were worthless. There was one in Colorado who I swear had supernatural healing powers. He fixed several non back things that had not responded to numerous MDs.

 

When we were in San Antonio and Anna was born, she looked lopsided and was rolling over at six weeks or so. She also wasn't waving her left arm and leg as much as her right. The doctor said he would prescribe PT if she didn't improve. I took her to a chiropractor who had five kids, and he fixed her. The pediatrician was shocked.

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I'd almost forgotten, my son woke up one morning in horrid pain, crying and refusing to move his neck. He never cries in pain, even when bleeding, so I knew it was hurting him. The ped ruled out meningitis, and said it was as muscle spasm. He actually recommended a chiropractor. I went to one I knew did children and in a matter of minutes he went from wide eyed in pain to smiling and laughing again,and able to move his neck. It was insane. I was SO glad I knew someone to take him to, and that she could help him. 

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I agree we are a pill popping nation. Medicine not being about healing but rather band aiding symptoms seems to be the main problem there. 

 

I take dudeling to a ND - and he has progressed FAR  more than with the allopath I'd  taken my kids to for nearly 25 years.

 

I'm so fed up with the allopaths I've gone to (especially about my thyroid), I'm now seeing a ND for myself.  I'm already feeling better. 

I so much appreciate providers who look for the CAUSE and treat that, instead of a Band-Aid when eventually you just need a bigger Band-Aid.

and the sports medicine dr - SPORTS medicine when I injured my leg . . he did diddly squat, kept *insisting* it was "just" a torn meniscus (six  weeks  after I injured it, the MRI came back a 2nd degree tear of the MCL).  it took him six weeks to finally send me for a MRI.  I'm still having problems (pain, problems walking, leg cramps.)  because it was  so poorly treated at the time.

I started going to a senin-so shiatsu - wow, as  much as it's helping, I think I still need more, but not sure where.

 

this is where my paranoia about on and off insurance has taken  me. 

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