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SparklyUnicorn
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That doesn't even make sense.

 

You said abortion was bad for you, and therefore bad for women. Other women clearly and vehemently disagree. What that has to do with Black Lives Matter has me completely befuddled.

I just think your using the same argument that people use towards those who say "black lives matter". It doesn't mean other lives matter less and neither do I claim to matter more than women with non-traumatic abortion experiences.

 

ETA: but I'm really not sure why you're asking me if I'm saying I matter more than other women with different experiences of Planned Parenthood. I never said that and don't mean that.

 

If you don't like what I'm saying that's fine but don't put words in my mouth.

Edited by pinkmint
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Please show some sensitivity to the experiences I shared. Thank you. Overcoming the trauma of child rape to go on and become a wife and mother is...not where I would be without PP. If you didn't see the significance in what I said I think you were skimming and reading your opinions of what you assumed I was saying into my post. Opinions that I didn't relate or express. That's not especially compassionate considering what I shared.

 

People can share all the negative posts they want about PP. They ideally should allow for others to have had different experiences. Which I do. And expressed clearly in my first post.

 

I sent you a PM before I saw this. No one was saying that different PP experiences couldn't be shared. I think the problem is that some posts were perceived in different lights/seen as making blanket statements about PP. I'd appreciate not to be boxed into a corner as inconsiderate (or not compassionate) when my goal was actually just to defend Pinkmint if she was being told to shush because she wasn't the statistical majority.

 

Really, I think everyone in this thread is trying to be compassionate to someone's thoughts and indirectly offending another someone in the process.

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I went to a crisis pregnancy center when I was pregnant with my second child.  I needed documentation that I was pregnant to apply for medicaid and that was the closest place to me that did free pregnancy tests.  The lady there was thrilled to have someone show up that was planning to keep her child, but of course, she still had to counsel us for around an hour before revealing the results of the tests.  And then, when I asked for documentation so I could apply for medicaid, she refused to release it to me, saying there was a 24 hour waiting period because they didn't want anyone using the documentation to procure an abortion without having time to think about it....I am still baffled by the logic...did she not realize that PP stocks their own pregnancy tests?  They certainly don't need documentation from some prolife clinic before they can perform an abortion.  So definitely don't have the highest opinion of these clinics.

 

How bizarre and totally backwards from the way our center operated. Test first, discussion about options (some had already decided either way), referrals with phone numbers, other community resources, etc. More clients than not wanted to get an US and we had to schedule into next week and beyond for that. US was never required but frequently requested by the client. Documentation if desired / needed was given before client leaves. Then we offered a look into room for free maternity clothes (you need those even if you think about abortion if you are further ahead) or other baby paraphernalia.

 

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What is telling people, repeatedly, their opinions are consistent with supporting infanticide? 

You know, I think I am the only one who has mentioned infanticide, and so I assume that this refers to my comments.  I want to be clear that I don't equate abortion with infanticide--I did say that before, but this thread has a lot of posts in it, and it would have been easy to miss that.  I do, however, think it's important to be clear that it is the taking of a human life.

 

What I have observed though is that there is a rise since the 1970s in seeing early infanticide as something that should be considered from an ethics standpoint.  That was pretty much inconceivable before, and in fact infanticide in Roman and Hawaiian cultures was widely known and rebuked as utterly immoral/barbaric by every modern Western source.  This is a shift in thinking that concerns me, and it is accompanied by other shifts during the same timeframe that I have mentioned--

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing the state as having any interest at all in the life of an unborn child, no matter how viable/mature.

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing 'safe, legal, and rare' as appropriate, since it implies a moral weight to abortion decisions.

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing a decision to abort as having any moral weight at all, as evidenced by the common sign "Abortion on Demand and Without Apologies" at pro-abortion demonstrations.

 

For the record, I think most elective abortion is wrong.  I think that sometimes it is the least bad of the available bad possible choices.  I think it should always be a weighty decision.  I think that infanticide has a degree of callousness that makes it worse than late term abortion.  I think that late term abortion has a degree of callousness that makes it worse than early abortion.  

 

I think that people should work to prevent the need or perceived need for abortion.  I think that compassion for all people should be the hallmark of that work.  

 

I think that the fact that we live in a society where it is not just easy but trivially easy to make the case that women need to kill their babies to have decent or even bearable lives should raise questions in all of our minds.  We should not accept society being this way.  Why isn't our society structured in such a way that that is not 'normal'?  Because surely it is one of the marks of a severely distorted, evil structure?  I know this last paragraph, like questioning the prevalence of male on female violence, is like questioning the air around us.  But really, this is a nutsy, horrendous structure to have and the first step to fixing it is seeing for what it is.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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You know, I think I am the only one who has mentioned infanticide, and so I assume that this refers to my comments. I want to be clear that I don't equate abortion with infanticide--I did say that, but this thread has a lot of posts in it, and it would have been easy to miss that.

 

What I have observed though is that there is a rise since the 1970s in seeing early infanticide as something that should be considered from an ethics standpoint. That was pretty much inconceivable before, and in fact infanticide in Roman and Hawaiian cultures was widely known and rebuked as utterly immortal by every modern Western source. This is a shift in thinking that concerns me, and it is accompanied by other shifts during the same timeframe that I have mentioned--

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing the state as having any interest at all in the life of an unborn child, no matter how viable/mature.

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing 'safe, legal, and rare' as appropriate, since it implies a moral weight to abortion decisions.

 

For instance, the shift away from seeing a decision to abort as having any moral weight at all, as evidenced by the common sign "Abortion on Demand and Without Apologies" at pro-abortion demonstrations.

 

For the record, I think most elective abortion is wrong. I think that sometimes it is the least bad of the available bad possible choices. I think it should always be a weighty decision. I think that infanticide has a degree of callousness that makes it worse than late term abortion. I think that late term abortion has a degree of callousness that makes it worse than early abortion.

 

I think that people should work to prevent the need or perceived need for abortion. I think that compassion for all people should be the hallmark of that work.

 

I think that the fact that we live in a society where it is not just easy but trivially easy to make the case that women need to kill their babies to have decent or even bearable lives should raise questions in all of our minds. We should not accept society being this way. Why isn't our society structured in such a way that that is not 'normal'? Because surely it is one of the marks of a severely distorted, evil structure? I know this last paragraph, like questioning the prevalence of male on female violence, is like questioning the air around us. But really, this is a nutsy, horrendous structure to have and the first step to fixing it is seeing for what it is.

Carol, thank you for your post but please know my comment was in response to a string of posts by someone else.

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Carol, thank you for your post but please know my comment was in response to a string of posts by someone else.

 

As I explained earlier, my point was that the logic of life = viability does not work.

 

I do not equate abortion with infanticide.

 

I corrected my comment so it would not seem to imply that pregnancy is all peaches and cream.  (Apparently not well enough for you, sorry.)

 

I still stand by my statement that the logic of life = viability does not work.

Edited by SKL
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I just think your using the same argument that people use towards those who say "black lives matter". It doesn't mean other lives matter less and neither do I claim to matter more than women with non-traumatic abortion experiences.

 

ETA: but I'm really not sure why you're asking me if I'm saying I matter more than other women with different experiences of Planned Parenthood. I never said that and don't mean that.

 

If you don't like what I'm saying that's fine but don't put words in my mouth.

 

Our discussion is about experiences at PP.

 

 

Let's go back to what you actually said and to which I responded:

"Abortion does hurt women. I'm a woman and abortion hurt me mentally, physically, emotionally profoundly. My experience matters even if it's not shared. But it is by many women out there and we matter."

 

The bolded is a matter of opinion based on your experiences.  There are other women who have had abortions who disagree.  The fact that you had a bad experiences does not mean other women should lose their right to have abortions, which is the end goal of those at the top of the Pro Life movement.

 

Your comment is in no way analogous to Black Lives Matter.  Just stop.

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No one was saying that different PP experiences couldn't be shared. I think the problem is that some posts were perceived in different lights/seen as making blanket statements about PP. I'd appreciate not to be boxed into a corner as inconsiderate (or not compassionate) when my goal was actually just to defend Pinkmint if she was being told to shush because she wasn't the statistical majority.

 

Really, I think everyone in this thread is trying to be compassionate to someone's thoughts and indirectly offending another someone in the process.

I've tried several times to respond but I think this says it better.

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Our discussion is about experiences at PP.

 

 

Let's go back to what you actually said and to which I responded:

"Abortion does hurt women. I'm a woman and abortion hurt me mentally, physically, emotionally profoundly. My experience matters even if it's not shared. But it is by many women out there and we matter."

 

The bolded is a matter of opinion based on your experiences. There are other women who have had abortions who disagree. The fact that you had a bad experiences does not mean other women should lose their right to have abortions, which is the end goal of those at the top of the Pro Life movement.

 

Your comment is in no way analogous to Black Lives Matter. Just stop.

Again with the putting words in my mouth. I didn't say what should or shouldn't happen with abortion policy. I shared my experience. You obviously don't like it. Fine. Whatever dude. I'm out of here.

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Exactly.

I would not get an abortion. I am not pro-abortion.

I just do not think it is the government's role to make these decisions for women.

 

I agree with you and feel exactly the same way about forcing other medical treatment, like vaccines, or forcing people to pay for health care they cannot afford. 

 

You have to be consistent on these things, and many are not.  They are happy to get in your business all over the place unless it is about abortion.  Then it's hands off - an inconsistent position if I ever saw one. 

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And for the record there are actually pro life feminists out there who believe abortion causes more harm to women than carrying out a pregnancy does. That is where concern for the woman comes in.

 

There's New Wave Feminists- Destiny De La Rosa and Kristen Hatten... they are an organization of pro life feminists.

Pro-life feminists exist.

 

Prolife feminists are not the whole of new wave feminism. As a point of general information.

 

I have read their books and own the classic tome on pro-life feminism. Their arguments are n't without merit but for me they fall apart when they try to generalize the negative experiences of some onto the all. And when they don't see the grey in our inherently grey and imperfect world.

Edited by LucyStoner
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I just think your using the same argument that people use towards those who say "black lives matter". It doesn't mean other lives matter less and neither do I claim to matter more than women with non-traumatic abortion experiences.

 

ETA: but I'm really not sure why you're asking me if I'm saying I matter more than other women with different experiences of Planned Parenthood. I never said that and don't mean that.

 

If you don't like what I'm saying that's fine but don't put words in my mouth.

 

Your experience was valid and I'm glad you shared it, for one.  Too often, the politically incorrect view is silenced. 

 

Of course you aren't saying you matter more, but your experience should not be disregarded because certain elements find it politically unacceptable. 

 

Many women have felt the same way you did.

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I sent you a PM before I saw this. No one was saying that different PP experiences couldn't be shared. I think the problem is that some posts were perceived in different lights/seen as making blanket statements about PP. I'd appreciate not to be boxed into a corner as inconsiderate (or not compassionate) when my goal was actually just to defend Pinkmint if she was being told to shush because she wasn't the statistical majority.

 

Really, I think everyone in this thread is trying to be compassionate to someone's thoughts and indirectly offending another someone in the process.

I am not sorry for challenging anyone's sweeping broad stroke bias against an organization that transformed, if not literally saved, my life.

 

I was NOT telling anyone to shush. If that wasn't clear to you or MSNatove, I do think your own bias was at play in how you read my words.

 

It is, in my view, inconsiderate to skim over the rather serious content of my post to pick me apart on tone issues.

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Your experience was valid and I'm glad you shared it, for one.  Too often, the politically incorrect view is silenced. 

 

Of course you aren't saying you matter more, but your experience should not be disregarded because certain elements find it politically unacceptable. 

 

Many women have felt the same way you did.

 

Of course, as has been pointed out repeatedly, her experience is valid.  As is those who had a different experience.  Which to me seems to lead us to a point where we accept that women should be allowed to make their own choices regarding their bodies.

 

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I agree with you and feel exactly the same way about forcing other medical treatment, like vaccines, or forcing people to pay for health care they cannot afford. 

 

You have to be consistent on these things, and many are not.  They are happy to get in your business all over the place unless it is about abortion.  Then it's hands off - an inconsistent position if I ever saw one. 

 

Eh.  Vaccines aren't forced, as far as I know.  Lots of exemption options.

The fact that healthcare is privatized for profit is disgusting, I'll agree with you there.

 

Is every anti-abortion poster here is opposed to the death penalty and in favor of  free universal healthcare? I kinda doubt it.

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I assumed as much about pro-choice people. Just out of curiosity, what do we call someone who IS pro-abortion. Pro-life people value the lives of fetuses, pro-choice people value reproductive choices for women. A significant number of people advocate for abortion because a pregnancy will "screw up your life". Often girls/women are pressured into abortions by their families or partners. What do we call their stance?

Personally, I call them assholes.

 

I am pro-abortion in that I don't have any ethical issues with abortion before 20 weeks. I'm fine with people having as many as they want for even the most dubious of reasons.

 

But I can't make that choice for someone else. Anyone who claims they can is an asshole, point blank.

 

We don't know what one woman can handle over another. Maybe Sally can raise two sets of twins less than a year apart, and maybe Jane won't commit suicide because of her rape. But maybe Sally can't and maybe Jane would. And the only people that know what Sally and Jane can cope with are Sally and Jane. They should be able to go to their doctors and get honest information about what the pregnancy means for their health (including mental health) and they need to know what services are available for whichever choice they do make.

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I am not sorry for challenging anyone's sweeping broad stroke bias against an organization that transformed, if not literally saved, my life.

 

I was NOT telling anyone to shush. If that wasn't clear to you or MSNatove, I do think your own bias was at play in how you read my words.

 

It is, in my view, inconsiderate to skim over the rather serious content of my post to pick me apart on tone issues.

See we read it differently- again each of our biases at play or more likely just the problems of online communication. If you look back at my posts I repeatedly said that I was happy you had great experiences and understood how that would make you view PP very positively. I don't see how that is skimming over your content. I really am very happy that you had such incredible experiences at PP. I wish all women in crisis could have such wise, kind and thoughtful counsellors. That should be, and I assume is, the goal for all sides of this issue.

And this exchange is yet another reminder of how sensitive this topic is and how careful we need to be with our words. We each come in with our own painful and/or powerful emotions and experiences that color how we perceive others. I did not mean to make you feel slighted or belittle your experiences at all. Quite the contrary. I was trying to give weight to both your experience and Pinkmints. You each had very serious life changing experiences there. Yours were life changing in a extremely positive way. Hers were in a negative way. Both are valid and important.

 

Eta: sending you a pm

Edited by MSNative
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See we read it differently- again each of our biases at play or more likely just the problems of online communication. If you look back at my posts I repeatedly said that I was happy you had great experiences and understood how that would make you view PP very positively. I don't see how that is skimming over your content. I really am very happy that you had such incredible experiences at PP. I wish all women in crisis could have such wise, kind and thoughtful counsellors. That should be, and I assume is, the goal for all sides of this issue.

And this exchange is yet another reminder of how sensitive this topic is and how careful we need to be with our words. We each come in with our own painful and/or powerful emotions and experiences that color how we perceive others. I did not mean to make you feel slighted or belittle your experiences at all. Quite the contrary. I was trying to give weight to both your experience and Pinkmints. You each had very serious life changing experiences there. Yours were life changing in a extremely positive way. Hers were in a negative way. Both are valid and important.

Dude. I was not telling her I didn't believe her-

I told her the exact opposite. And I did so before you and heartlikealion felt the need to (repeatedly) call me out to some unknown end.

 

That anyone can be so critical on tone issues in light of the highly serious nature of my post is beyond me. Go ahead and continue to assign meaning to my words that is not actually there after I explicitly spelled out that I agree with you that people can have both positive and negative experiences in PP. I'm not sure to what end you need to do this but please remember that tone issues work both ways. For the love of all the things.

 

Perhaps I should have shared my positive experiences in a post that was not a reply.

 

I truly dunno what and at this point don't really care what would have alleviated your concerns but at this juncture it's fairly well certain (from where I am sitting) that nothing I could say would satisfy you.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Pinkmints had a terrible experience and she definitely gets my sympathy.

 

But .... Her experience is that she felt coerced into a pregnancy choice instead of given support for other options. We all agree that is wrong . So while it is hard to hear, it seems to me to be not all that difference from the experience described in the OP. A woman felt tricked and manipulated by the very health clinic she thought would help her. Both seem to be arguments in favor of allowing choice and freedom from agenda driven medical language.

Edited by poppy
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Pinkmints had a terrible experience and she definitely gets my sympathy.

 

But .... Her experience is that she felt coerced into a pregnancy choice instead of given support for other options. We all agree that is wrong . So while it is hard to hear, it seems to me to be not all that difference from the experience described in the OP. A woman felt tricked and manipulated by the very health clinic she thought would help her. Both seem to be arguments in favor of allowing choice and freedom from agenda driven medical language.

No one should be lied to, manipulated or coerced. Women in crisis need help and wisdom. And real changes in society so that they won't be in crisis. But that is a different thread
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I try to think of opinions on organizations as just that, opinion. I don't know that I thought PP needed their rep saved because one person had a bad experience and shared it here, but actually it was good to show balance in the thread by hearing more. I probably would have done the same! I may not come across as open-minded or fair, but I try to be. I never intended to sweep over important or delicate matters in the thread as if they were minor. I guess I was just fixated on the overall message that I heard (not saying it was the main message or what I should have focused on but the one I left with). That message was, "I did/didn't receive the level of help I wanted." That is what my replies were based on. So I'm sorry for coming across as dismissive/rude/insertadjectiveofchoice.

 

I have never shopped at Land's End, but I hear about that place on these forums all the time. I have heard good and bad. Overwhelmingly good. But yes, I remember posts from both angles. I have friends on FB that I have talked to about PP and no it wasn't all bad. I am not 100% neutral on them, no, but I am not blind to the fact that some locations don't even do abortions and sometimes they are the only place where someone can get certain help. At least, last I checked. I don't go out of my way to say these things about PP, but I don't forget them and am happy to offer the information if someone were to ask me.

 

I don't know if my reply is helping or hurting so I should probably just shut up now.

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The "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" deceive women in a few ways. One by showing fake ultrasounds and telling the woman that the pregnancy is too far advanced to have an abortion. Another by setting an "appointment" for an abortion (which they do not provide) and rescheduling it for an emergency or some such until the pregnancy is actually too far advanced to have the procedure at an actual medical clinic that actually provides these services.

 

Whether or not anyone has ever had a negative experience at Planned Parenthood or any real medical clinic has nothing to do with these charlatans. That would be a separate thread, but surely no one here is saying that Planned Parenthood routinely sets up ultrasounds and whoops! performs an abortion on an unwitting pregnant woman in order to advance some religious or social agenda, right?

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The "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" deceive women in a few ways. One by showing fake ultrasounds and telling the woman that the pregnancy is too far advanced to have an abortion. Another by setting an "appointment" for an abortion (which they do not provide) and rescheduling it for an emergency or some such until the pregnancy is actually too far advanced to have the procedure at an actual medical clinic that actually provides these services.

 

Whether or not anyone has ever had a negative experience at Planned Parenthood or any real medical clinic has nothing to do with these charlatans. That would be a separate thread, but surely no one here is saying that Planned Parenthood routinely sets up ultrasounds and whoops! performs an abortion on an unwitting pregnant woman in order to advance some religious or social agenda, right?

If CPCs are doing that can't they be shut down for fraud or something else? Clearly that is illegal and wrong. And just awful for the women who are tricked and manipulated.

Do all CPCs do this or just a few bad ones?

Edited by MSNative
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Fetus can't be debated though as it has a specific meaning. Baby has a general meaning and whether it applies to the unborn is a matter of opinion. In a clinical setting, one would normally expect to hear the medical term.

 

Everytime I had an ultrasound or checked for a heartbeat during pregnancy at my OB/GYN, I am pretty sure they said baby, and not asked if I wanted to see or hear my fetus.

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Eh.  Vaccines aren't forced, as far as I know.  Lots of exemption options.

The fact that healthcare is privatized for profit is disgusting, I'll agree with you there.

 

Is every anti-abortion poster here is opposed to the death penalty and in favor of  free universal healthcare? I kinda doubt it.

 

Nor are abortions forced.  But there are some who insist that we have to pretend there isn't even a baby in there in order to treat these women.  How obnoxious and condescending that is.  It IS a baby.  It will be a baby.  It will be nothing but a baby, should it live. 

 

But with reference to vaccines, compliance is forced unless you want to lose your job, in some places.  If you want to call that voluntary, go ahead, but it isn't.  Forcing anyone to do anything to their bodies (or their childrens' bodies) in order to gain basic services or employment is completely unacceptable.   Do what you want to your own body, and let everyone else make his own decision, same as in abortion. 

 

There is no such thing as free healthcare. Someone pays for it.  I'm in favor of that cost being shifted away from a narrow margin of the middle class who pays the most in taxes and toward the top, as Bernie suggests. 

 

And personally, I oppose the death penalty as well.

 

I'm very consistent in my views. 

 

 

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Everytime I had an ultrasound or checked for a heartbeat during pregnancy at my OB/GYN, I am pretty sure they said baby, and not asked if I wanted to see or hear my fetus.

When I was pregnant they used the language 'baby'. When , in one of my pregnancies , my ultrasound revealed there was no heartbeat (miscarriage) the word 'baby' stopped being used. (Though I am sure they would have resumed if I'd chosen to use the term). So clearly the language is adapted based on circumstance.

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The death penalty has nothing to do with abortion. 

 

Abortion opponents see the fetus (or embryo, depending on stage of development) as morally equivalent to a human life, with the fundamental right to life.

 

Whether or not they think non-innocent people should be subject to the death penalty is completely separate.

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Whether or not anyone has ever had a negative experience at Planned Parenthood or any real medical clinic has nothing to do with these charlatans. That would be a separate thread, but surely no one here is saying that Planned Parenthood routinely sets up ultrasounds and whoops! performs an abortion on an unwitting pregnant woman in order to advance some religious or social agenda, right?

 

Actually, my friend I mentioned upthread, who went in for an ultrasound and prenatal care (wanting her baby) and came out with an abortion, WAS Lied to about the ultrasound! She specifically told me, after the procedure, that at least the baby wasn't far enough along to have a heartbeat. I didn't have the heart to tell her that at the gestation they told her the baby yes, did have a heartbeat. They just didn't show it to her, and when she asked about it, they lied. 

 

But again, that clinic is no longer part of PP. But it does still do abortions, as far as I know. 

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If CPCs are doing that can't they be shut down for fraud or something else? Clearly that is illegal and wrong. And just awful for the women who are tricked and manipulated.

Do all CPCs do this or just a few bad ones?

I don't know if it is all CPCs. I do know that some resort to such tactics.

 

The reason that ones using these coercive tactics get away with it is that the law rarely covers this (outside of practicing medicine without a license), the CPCs guilty of this are very careful to cover their tracks, women subjected to this may not have the means to persue legal action and many CPCs defend at least some parts of their works as being free speech or covered under religious freedom.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Except that I never  said any of that stuff.  You are projecting here.

 

I do not believe that women are less valuable than babies.  But I do believe that all lives are valuable, even an unborn child's. And I don't think that pretending that a baby is not alive just because she hasn't been born yet is a favor to anyone.

 

But you do believe that the pro-life movement has the right to ALWAYS choose which life (baby) trumps which life (woman), regardless of circumstances. The baby always trumps the mother. Doesn't matter if the mother might lose her job (2/3 of all disability claims are related to pregnancy), whether she is a 13-year-old girl whose uncle has been grunting away on top of her and so impregnated her (yes, that's crass, but that's what happens - had a foster child surviving just those circumstances), or a rape victim who was too ashamed or traumatized to get the Plan B in time, or to report the rape in time to satisfy the people who might get to judge whether the rape is "legitimate" enough to possibly allow an abortion.

 

I'm actually a wishy-washy type - I guess I'm pro-choice, but I don't mind legal restrictions that make it harder to get, nor do I mind CPC's that are honest. But even I can see the irony of pro-lifers who claim that they care about the woman but only allow ONE option in all circumstances. The needs and the fears and the wants and the desperation of the woman are not allowed to factor in the decision. There might be lots of flowery words and justifications and protestations to the contrary, but only one choice is allowed. For all women. All the time. 

 

And that the same people who claim to be so frothing-at-the-mouth-concerned about the baby also support cutting to the bone all the services necessary for that life to thrive after birth.....well, probably better I don't go there.  

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The death penalty has nothing to do with abortion.

 

Abortion opponents see the fetus (or embryo, depending on stage of development) as morally equivalent to a human life, with the fundamental right to life.

 

Whether or not they think non-innocent people should be subject to the death penalty is completely separate.

Maybe then we should rename Pro-life then, because pro-death penalty seems to be the very opposite.

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As far as 'drifting' in values goes, to be fair, we should talk about how the Pro-Life movement has drifted. 

 

It used to be that exceptions would be allowed for rape and incest. Then those exceptions were taken out of the desired outcome. 

 

Now we're to the point where, according to Mario Rubio & his ilk (debate at Fox News last fall), a woman needs to die before she would be allowed access to a life-saving abortion. 

 

Think about that. We now live in a country where a major candidate for President feels he has the right to decide that a woman who needs a medically necessary abortion should die rather than have that abortion.

 

And someone wants to tell me how women are valued by the pro-life movement? 

 

Don't get it. 

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The death penalty has nothing to do with abortion.

 

Abortion opponents see the fetus (or embryo, depending on stage of development) as morally equivalent to a human life, with the fundamental right to life.

 

Whether or not they think non-innocent people should be subject to the death penalty is completely separate.

Life is precious! Unless you are a criminal . Or a pregnant woman.

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Life is precious! Unless you are a criminal . Or a pregnant woman.

Or a child in a warzone desperately trying to get out. Or "collateral damage" in a military action. Or a mentally impaired man who commits a crime you don't even understand. And on and on.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Actually, my friend I mentioned upthread, who went in for an ultrasound and prenatal care (wanting her baby) and came out with an abortion, WAS Lied to about the ultrasound! She specifically told me, after the procedure, that at least the baby wasn't far enough along to have a heartbeat. I didn't have the heart to tell her that at the gestation they told her the baby yes, did have a heartbeat. They just didn't show it to her, and when she asked about it, they lied.

 

But again, that clinic is no longer part of PP. But it does still do abortions, as far as I know.

Just as way of information (I am NOT discounting your friend's experience or defending that awful former PP) I would like to address the u/s and heartbeat issue.

 

Because I miscarry so often, I have a lot of early u/s. Sometimes an early u/s shows a heartbeat

as early as 5-6 weeks. Sometimes it doesn't show up on an u/s until much later. It depends on where the embryo is implanted, the shape and position of the uterus, the skill of the worker performing the u/s and the quality of the machine. An u/s in a clinic office or a small midwifery office will usually be less accurate than the top of the line machines that a radiology office is more likely to have. Because small offices can't afford equipment upgrades as soon as they become available. It is highly possible for a heartbeat to not be visible when it "should" be visible. My younger son's was not clear until fairly late and that was on the spiffy new machine. We

despaired of him sticking around but he was there and kicking it 10 days later. OTOH, I've had and lost many pregnancies where a heartbeat was clearly visible very early but then ceased towards the end of the first trimester or the start of the second. I chart and my dates and usually ironclad. Of course the heartbeat is there in a viable pregnancy before it is visible on any u/s and they definitely should not have deceived her. That is wholly wrong.

Edited by LucyStoner
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As far as 'drifting' in values goes, to be fair, we should talk about how the Pro-Life movement has drifted. 

 

It used to be that exceptions would be allowed for rape and incest. Then those exceptions were taken out of the desired outcome. 

 

Now we're to the point where, according to Mario Rubio & his ilk (debate at Fox News last fall), a woman needs to die before she would be allowed access to a life-saving abortion. 

 

Think about that. We now live in a country where a major candidate for President feels he has the right to decide that a woman who needs a medically necessary abortion should die rather than have that abortion.

 

And someone wants to tell me how women are valued by the pro-life movement? 

 

Don't get it. 

On the topic of rape & incest.  I think they are very grave crimes that should be severely treated by the justice system.  There is serous need for improvement both in preventing these crimes & in handling them after the fact.  However, I don't think it's the fetuses fault that its mother was a victim.  Abortion in that situation does nothing to further justice.  A previous poster mentioned a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy under theses circumstances risks becoming legally tethered to her abuser/rapist.  That is so wrong, and shouldn't be possible.  How a rapist could ever have parental rights is an abomination of the law.

 

In "life of the mother" circumstances, I am pro-choice.  The pregnant woman's life has value.  If a woman & her medical providers feel that an abortion is the best course of action, I can accept that decision without judgement.

 

I find it difficult to speak for the pro-life movement as a whole, because it seems many posters have had extremely negative experiences that are not in line with pro-life values as far as I see them.

 

On the topic of logical pro-life consistency, personally I am pro-life across the board (mostly).  So no death penalty, no war, no genocide/eugenics.  I say mostly because I do see some nuance.  I agree that the death penalty doesn't have anything to do with abortion, but it does have to do with the "life" part of pro-life.  I am against both for similar reasons.  Everyone's life should have value.  

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On the topic of rape & incest.  I think they are very grave crimes that should be severely treated by the justice system.  There is serous need for improvement both in preventing these crimes & in handling them after the fact.  However, I don't think it's the fetuses fault that its mother was a victim.  Abortion in that situation does nothing to further justice.  A previous poster mentioned a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy under theses circumstances risks becoming legally tethered to her abuser/rapist.  That is so wrong, and shouldn't be possible.  How a rapist could ever have parental rights is an abomination of the law.

 

In "life of the mother" circumstances, I am pro-choice.  The pregnant woman's life has value.  If a woman & her medical providers feel that an abortion is the best course of action, I can accept that decision without judgement.

 

I find it difficult to speak for the pro-life movement as a whole, because it seems many posters have had extremely negative experiences that are not in line with pro-life values as far as I see them.

 

On the topic of logical pro-life consistency, personally I am pro-life across the board (mostly).  So no death penalty, no war, no genocide/eugenics.  I say mostly because I do see some nuance.  I agree that the death penalty doesn't have anything to do with abortion, but it does have to do with the "life" part of pro-life.  I am against both for similar reasons.  Everyone's life should have value.  

 

A big reason is because a lot of women do not report rape, for various reasons.  Even when they do, getting a conviction is difficult.  If there is no conviction, good luck denying someone parental rights.

 

Also, forcing someone to carry a pregnancy to term after they are a victim of rape or incest is simply awful.

 

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On the topic of rape & incest. I think they are very grave crimes that should be severely treated by the justice system. There is serous need for improvement both in preventing these crimes & in handling them after the fact. However, I don't think it's the fetuses fault that its mother was a victim. Abortion in that situation does nothing to further justice. A previous poster mentioned a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy under theses circumstances risks becoming legally tethered to her abuser/rapist. That is so wrong, and shouldn't be possible. How a rapist could ever have parental rights is an abomination of the law.

 

In "life of the mother" circumstances, I am pro-choice. The pregnant woman's life has value. If a woman & her medical providers feel that an abortion is the best course of action, I can accept that decision without judgement.

 

I find it difficult to speak for the pro-life movement as a whole, because it seems many posters have had extremely negative experiences that are not in line with pro-life values as far as I see them.

 

On the topic of logical pro-life consistency, personally I am pro-life across the board (mostly). So no death penalty, no war, no genocide/eugenics. I say mostly because I do see some nuance. I agree that the death penalty doesn't have anything to do with abortion, but it does have to do with the "life" part of pro-life. I am against both for similar reasons. Everyone's life should have value.

While I agree that it is not the fetuses fault how it was conceived, I think the risk of life altering or ending harm from having to carry your abuser's child to term needs to be weighed, for each individual girl or woman and BY each individual girl or woman. It's impossible for me to know or anyone to know what being required to continue such a pregnancy will do to the mother. I HAVE to prioritize her over an embryo or unviable fetus. We tend to treat sexual abuse survivors like crap in this country. Legally but also culturally. That people subject them to crappy treatment and then some want to force them to give birth under that level of duress is just over the top. That some women are able to give birth under those circumstances is amazing but it needs to be their choice and even then, it is not usually easy or without consequence.
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Or a child in a warzone desperately trying to get out. Or "collateral damage" in a military action. Or a mentally retarded man who commits a crime you don't even understand. And on and on.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that pro-lifers should desire to protect all innocent human beings whose lives are threatened, regardless of the form of the threatened violence. I am anti-war and pro-refugee and would certainly oppose the death penalty for someone without the mental capacity to understand their crime. 

 

However, I agree with ananemone that the death penalty is a separate issue, and one I am still thinking through. It is a just response to someone who has intentionally taken the life of another and can certainly act as a deterrent. However, I would not personally participate in carrying out the death penalty. I would prefer to see mercy shown, as Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery. I don't trust our current justice system and believe it is responsible for putting to death many innocent people; that is always wrong. I welcome thoughts from other pro-lifers [or anyone else who can share them without snark ;) ] on this topic.

Edited by MercyA
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On the topic of rape & incest.  I think they are very grave crimes that should be severely treated by the justice system.  There is serous need for improvement both in preventing these crimes & in handling them after the fact.  However, I don't think it's the fetuses fault that its mother was a victim.  Abortion in that situation does nothing to further justice.  A previous poster mentioned a woman who chooses to continue a pregnancy under theses circumstances risks becoming legally tethered to her abuser/rapist.  That is so wrong, and shouldn't be possible.  How a rapist could ever have parental rights is an abomination of the law.

 

I agree. Human beings should not be executed for the crimes of their biological "fathers." Obviously the victim of the sexual crime should receive all possible support, and the rapist should lose any rights they might have had to the child.

Edited by MercyA
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Maybe then we should rename Pro-life then, because pro-death penalty seems to be the very opposite.

 

Well we could also rename Pro-Choice, because you don't believe in a lot of choices (the choice to rape, the choice to kill your newborn, the choice to steal, etc.)

 

They're both focusing on what the group believes is the core of the issue, I figure - for pro-lifers, it's that there is an innocent life at stake.  For pro-choicers, it's that there is a choice (which they believe to not be a moral or immoral choice, just a choice) at stake.  I give both groups the benefit of their own self-definition most of the time, as incorrect as I may think it is.

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Life is precious! Unless you are a criminal . Or a pregnant woman.

 

I would say the majority of pro-lifers believe in an exception for the life of the mother.

 

Re: criminals; if someone is in your house threatening you with a gun and the police come and manage to shoot him, I don't think many people, even most pro-choice people, see that as a moral fault.  Some life is not innocent.  A person trying to kill you is almost universally regarded (with some religious exceptions) as not innocent and it is not a crime to kill that person to save your own life.

 

The death penalty for egregious crimes is somewhere in between, I grant, but certainly it is not equivalent to the killing of a newborn baby, and pro-lifers generally see a fetus as having the same right to life as a newborn baby.

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I have a question for the pro-lifers who think abortion is ok if the life of the mother is at stake. I think there are multiple people in this thread who hold that position. Where do you draw the line - like if the mother is 100% guaranteed to die if she carries the pregnancy, that's ok right? What if it's only 80% likely that she'll die? 50% likely? And so on? It often is not completely clear cut whether the mother will die.

 

I thought about this in relation to a recent story in the news about a 9 year old girl from Brazil who was pregnant with twins after being raped by her step-father (hope I got the details right). The doctors sounded sure that she would die if her 9 year old uterus carried twins to term, and she was able to get an abortion. If that is ok, what if she were 9 years old, but it wasn't twins? What if she were a little older? Many people draw the line at some point. Like if she were 18 with a single pregnancy, it sounds like at least some people here think she should carry it to term. I'm trying to understand how you decide where to draw the line.

 

This is a long thread and I've lost who mentioned organ donation, but I think it is an interesting parallel. In the US it is prohibited to sell organs or to compel someone to donate an organ. If a life or several lives would be saved by organ donation, should the family of a dying (or recently passed) person be compelled to donate their organs? If a pro-life person would be willing to compel a pregnant woman to carry an unwanted child until birth, when it could be given up for adoption, why shouldn't organ donation be compulsory as well? What about live donation - like if you have a sibling who needs a kidney? Should the healthy sibling be compelled to donate a kidney if the sick sibling is almost certainly going to die without the donation?

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Well we could also rename Pro-Choice, because you don't believe in a lot of choices (the choice to rape, the choice to kill your newborn, the choice to steal, etc.)

 

They're both focusing on what the group believes is the core of the issue, I figure - for pro-lifers, it's that there is an innocent life at stake.  For pro-choicers, it's that there is a choice (which they believe to not be a moral or immoral choice, just a choice) at stake.  I give both groups the benefit of their own self-definition most of the time, as incorrect as I may think it is.

 

You could, but no one would take you seriously or would believe you are interested in a serious discussion.

Edited by ChocolateReignRemix
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Actually, my friend I mentioned upthread, who went in for an ultrasound and prenatal care (wanting her baby) and came out with an abortion, WAS Lied to about the ultrasound! She specifically told me, after the procedure, that at least the baby wasn't far enough along to have a heartbeat. I didn't have the heart to tell her that at the gestation they told her the baby yes, did have a heartbeat. They just didn't show it to her, and when she asked about it, they lied.

 

But again, that clinic is no longer part of PP. But it does still do abortions, as far as I know.

Or that's a version she's telling herself. One of my best friends has a sort of similar event which has...changed over the years. Especially depending on the audience. It's her story and her way of processing, and I certainly would never correct her, but the current version is rather different from the original she told me.

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