Please help me choose classes for 11th grade

mbrady · May 9, 2016

My oldest daughter will be entering 11th grade. I'm still trying to figure out high school as we go along, so I would appreciate any suggestions. My daughter is a strong student. She works very hard but is naturally slow at everything she does. She wants to go into some science field in college, but she isn't sure what. Her dream is to be an astrophysicist because she loves astronomy. However, she realizes that she isn't a math genius. She is also considering a medical field, and she has enjoyed chemistry this year. I was planning on her taking four years of Latin, but I am reconsidering this because Latin has been so time consuming. I want her to take physics soon so she will know if she likes it. I'm not sure how important it is to have an AP class her junior year before she applies to colleges. She is looking at Texas A&M, Grove City, and Wheaton as possible colleges.

This is what she has taken her freshman and sophomore years. I would say she was at her limit with this workload- at times a little too stressed. Although she has done well in these classes.

9th grade-

Latin 1 (Lukeion)

Rhetoric 1 (WTMA)

Biology (WTMA)

Algebra 1 (Saxon)

World History (part of Sonlight 200)

10th grade-

Latin 2 (Lukeion)

Greek and Roman History (Lukeion)

Greek and Roman Literature (Lukeion)

Chemistry (WTMA)

Algebra 2 (Saxon)

These are the the options I am considering for next year. What do you think? I'm feeling a little overwhelmed seeing them all typed up.

Option 1

AP American History (WTMA)

Physics (Derek Owens)

Advanced Math (WTMA)

Rhetoric 2 (WTMA)

American Literature (lighter, not online)

Option 2

American History (Notgrass, a little lighter)

America Literature

Physics (DO)

Advanced Math (WTMA)

Rhetoric 2 (WTMA)

Latin 3 (Lukeion)

Option 3

American History (Notgrass, a little lighter)

America Literature

Physics (DO)

Advanced Math (WTMA)

Rhetoric 2 (WTMA)

Anatomy& Physiology (WTMA)

Option 4

AP American History

Physics

Anatomy & Physiology

Advanced Math

American Literature

Basically, I'm trying to decide whether or not to continue Latin, to take AP US History or an easier choice, or to try to fit in 2 sciences next year. I would like her to have the writing instruction in Rhetoric 2. She is also planning to do a simple government class at a co-op next spring. Any thoughts?

Thanks for your help.

Starr · May 10, 2016

Does she need a modern language for any of the colleges she's considering?

mbrady · May 10, 2016

That's a good question. I've only checked with Grove City and was told that with only two years of Latin she would have to take a (I think) modern language in college. With 3 years of Latin, then she would need to take 6 hours in college. With 4 years and a 4 on the AP test, then she wouldn't have to take any foreign language. I'm just wondering if she gets science degree, will she need a foreign language. My husband has an engineering degree from Texas A&M, and he never had to take a foreign language. Therefore he would have not needed AP Latin. That was a while back and things may have changed. Thanks for bringing this up. I need to look into it.

Lori D. · May 10, 2016

I'll help with the "big picture" of what needs to happen for the next 2 years to meet college admission requirements and to be competitive, as others are helping you with ideas about specific curricula. My thoughts, FWIW ;) :

1. English

- Looks like you will have your minimum required credits for English if you do Rhetoric 2 and American Lit. (It looks like WTM Academy counts Rhetoric as 1 credit = Language Arts, and the focus is on Writing/Composition.)

- Because colleges are looking for the word "English" on your transcript, I'd make sure to label your credits clearly in the way colleges are looking for them. Below, I've listed credits you've taken and potential credits by subject, and with suggested standard course names, both of which makes it super easy for college admission offices to understand. (I'd only include the completion date if needed by the college). If the online class has a distinctive name, you can put in quotations and include it as part of the course heading on both the transcript and the course description page. (see example transcript below)

2. Math

- Looks like you are missing Geometry. Most colleges require it as a Math credit.

- Otherwise, taking math up through Advanced Math should meet minimum STEM program requirements for the colleges you listed.

3. Science

- Looks like you are planning a total of 4 sciences with labs, and that you've already met the additional requirement of Texas A&M that at least 2 credits be from Biology, Chemistry, or Physics.

4. Social Studies

- Looks like Texas A&M requires Economics, so you'll want to get that in.

- Also, to be competitive for admission to Wheaton, you'll need to do an additional 0.5 credit of some sort of Social Science (History, Geography, Psychology, or other) to reach a minimum total of 4.0 credits.

5. Foreign Language

- Looks like you'll need to do a 3rd year of Latin to meet admission requirements to Grove City, and also to be competitive for admission to Wheaton.

- OR, if DD is burned out on Latin, you might consider switching to a Modern Language and do 2-4 semesters of dual enrollment at your local community college, which would could as 2-4 credits of high school foreign language AND would knock out in advance ANY possible future language requirement in college. ;) Many universities will work with you on the Foreign Language requirement if you have a total of 4 credits, with 2 each in two different languages -- the admission requirements are not quite so rigid in this area as you might think, esp. when the student is showing diversity with 2 languages.

6. Fine Arts

- Looks like you have not yet planned any credit for fulfilling the 1 credit Fine Arts required for admission to Texas A&M and to Wheaton.

7. Electives

- Looks like you have not yet done any Electives, or planned any Electives.

- "Academic Electives" are additional electives over required electives in English, Math, Science, Social Studies or Foreign Language.

- Texas A&M requires 5 Electives for admission. So, if you do a 4th credit of Social Studies (required for Wheaton), and a 3rd credit of Latin (required for Grove City and for Wheaton), you would have 2 Academic Electives, and would only need to plan an 3 additional Electives.

- To be competitive to Wheaton, you will need Electives. You've already planned a 4th credit for Science and Math, and if you make sure to accomplish a 4th credit in Social Studies, that gives you 3 academic electives. Accomplishing another 2-3 Electives in areas of personal development / interest would help your student stand out for admissions.

- Be careful to spread out scheduling of non-academic Electives over the next 2 years, so that DD doesn't end with a light senior year that looks weak to colleges that require listing completion dates of courses. So, 4 "harder" academic courses + 2 "lighter" electives of personal interest in each of 11th and 12th grades would be a great balance, and would allow DD

- Ideas for Academic Electives: Computer Programming, Engineering, Robotics, Literature: Mythology (or other genre/area of special interest)

- Ideas for non-academic Electives: Computer, PE, Health, Bible/Religion, Vocational-Tech, personal interest areas

- Your student might be able to self-study in an area of interest, or a light Elective and knock out 2 Electives in the summers -- 1 each this summer and next summer. That way it doesn't overload her 11th and 12th grade years.

Extracurriculars

- You did not list any of these, and I assume your student is doing outside activities to pursue personal interests, develop potential career interests, and to develop skills in leadership and responsibility as well as community volunteering / involvement. These are important "extras" to make a student stand out and be more desirable at a school that is somewhat selective, such as Texas A&M, and esp. Wheaton.

- If your student is not involved in any activities other than activities, NOW is the year to get out there and try new things.

- Summer programs are a great way to dip a toe in the water -- look for some STEM-based ones.

- What about joining the local community Amateur Astronomy group?

- How about community service hours by volunteering at a hospital? Also helps DD see if she likes medicine as a possible career.

- Mock Trial, Teen Pact, or Youth & Gov't are great ways to get both extracurricular activities in there, plus knock out some of the Gov't credit by doing it -- and having fun and meeting other students. Plus learning great skills in networking, leadership and responsibility that are looked for on college applications and scholarship applications and essays. :)

________________________________

Possible transcript:

ENGLISH

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

English: Rhetoric 1* . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

English: Rhetoric 2* . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

English: Ancient Lit: "Greek & Roman Literature"** 1.00 . . . x

English: American Literature . . . . 1.00 . . . x

TOTAL credits/GPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.00 . . . x.xxx

* = Well-Trained Mind Academy online course provider

** = Lukieon online course provider

MATH

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

Algebra 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

Algebra 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

Geometry . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

Advanced Math* . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x

TOTAL credits/GPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.00 . . . x.xxx

* = Well-Trained Mind Academy online course provider

SCIENCE (with labs)

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

Biology* . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x

Chemistry* . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x

Physics*** . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

Anatomy & Physiology* . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

TOTAL credits/GPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.00 . . . x.xxx

* = Well-Trained Mind Academy online course provider

*** = Derek Owens online course provider

SOCIAL STUDIES

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

History: Ancient: "Greek & Roman History"** . . 1.00 . . . x

History: American* . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

History: Church . . . . . . . . . . 0.50 . . . x

Government . . . . . . . . . . . 0.50 . . . x

Economics . . . . . . . . . . . . 0.50 . . . x

Social Studies. . . . . . . . . . . 0.50 . . . x

TOTAL credits/GPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.00 . . . x.xxx

* = Well-Trained Mind Academy online course provider

** = Lukieon online course provider

FOREIGN LANGUAGE

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

Latin 1** . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x

Latin 2** . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x

Latin 3** . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x -- or, possibly year 1 of another Foreign Language

Latin 4** . . . . . . . . . . . . .1.00 . . . x -- or, possibly year 2 of another Foreign Language -- OR, if doing Latin 3, could stop at 3 credits

TOTAL credits/GPA . . . . . . . . . . . . 4.00 . . . x.xxx

** = Lukieon online course provider

FINE ARTS

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

Fine Arts . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

ELECTIVES

course . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . credit . grade . . date completed

Elective . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1.00 . . . x

________________________________

College requirements for admission:

Texas A&M credit required for admission:

4 credits = English

4 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2 + an additional Math)

4 credits = Science (2 must be from Biology, Chemistry, Physics)

3 credits = Social Studies

2 credits = Foreign Language

1 credit = Fine Arts

5 credits = Electives

23 credits total (as the 4th Math & Science are required as Academic Electives, and need additional credits to be competitive since only 4% of accepted freshmen come from outside of Texas)

preferred:

- 2 credits of Social Studies = US History, 0.5 = Economics with emphasis on Personal Finance

school profile:

66% acceptance rate

96% = in-state, 4% = out of state

ACT score = 24-29 (51%), 30-36 (32%)

_______________

Grove City (PA) credits required for admission:

4 years = English

3 years = Math (through Trig required for entrance into STEM programs)

3 years = Science

3 years = Social Science

3 years = Foreign Language (same language; either a Modern Language OR classical written language, either with B-average or higher)

total 16 credits listed (but obviously expecting another 4-6 credits minimum in Electives/Academic Electives)

school profile:

81% acceptance rate

special requirements for homeschool applicants

ACT score = 24-29 (59%), 30-36 (30%)

_______________

Wheaton credit required for admission:

4 credits = English

3 credits = Math (Alg. 1, Geometry, Alg. 2 + an additional Math)

3 credits = Science

3 credits = Social Studies

2 credits = Foreign Language

17 credits total when including preferred credits, (but obviously expecting another 3-7 credits in Electives/Academic Electives to be competitive for admission)

preferred:

- 4th credit Math with Algebra 2 as pre-requisite

- 4th credit Science

- 4th credit Social Studies

- 3rd credit Foreign Language

school profile:

71% acceptance rate

26% = in-state, 74% = out of state

ACT score = 24-29 (40%), 30-36 (52%)

Edited May 10, 2016 by Lori D.

LisaKinVA · May 10, 2016

Lori-D, very nice -- although if she's using the integrated Saxon, Geometry is included in their Algebra 1 & Algebra 2 courses. She might be better calling it Integrated Math 1 (Algebra 1 with Geometry) and Integrated Math 2 (Algebra 2 with Geometry). If she's not doing integrated Saxon, she'll need to add Geometry, and I would suggest doubling up on math, with the intent of getting to AP Calculus either AB or AB/BC her senior year.

If your dd thinks she may be heading into a STEM field, I would lighten some of the English/Humanities load. Not eliminate it, but drill down to what is necessary for a solid credit. If she's alread yhad 2 years of Rhetoric, I'd focus on the American Literature and Composition, and write across the curriculum. As far as AP goes, she can self study a number of them on her own -- STEM fields would probably be more interested in how she did in an AP Science or Math class vs. lots of APs in humanities fields.

So, if it were my kid, junior year would look like this (it assumes you used the integrated Saxon texts):

American Literature with Composition -- OPTION -- Self Study for AP English Language & Composition Exam
AP Physics 1 (and possibly AP Physics 2) -- Online -- These courses can be taken without prior experience in Physics. If she's nervous conceptually, get the required text early and have her pre-read it. ClutchPrep has some decent videos keyed to several AP Physics Texts. EdX also has several introductory Physics and even AP Physics 1 & 2 courses online
Advanced Math (WTMA)
American History (Notgrass) -- OPTION -- Self Study for AP History Exam
Latin 3 (I'd keep going, if you can to AP Latin)
1-2 electives

She's been doing some very serious work -- but the elective areas (like Lori-D said) are nearly non-existent. Most high schools have 6-8 courses a year. It might be in her best interest to do a summer course in Astronomy, Econ, or even a tech or fine arts credit (to give her a broader taste of what is out there). It is very difficult for a student to have both a very rigorous classical education AND a very rigorous STEM preparation. At some point, one or the other has to give a little. My oldest three have all leaned towards STEM. My oldest son will also be a junior next year. It's been a constant struggle with finding that balance between wanting him to have the BEST classical education vs. having the education he needs to succeed in the field he's heading into.

snowbeltmom · May 10, 2016

Online classes, especially the ones your daughter has taken, are very time consuming. I would go with your Option 2; however, since foreign language is just a "check the box" for your D, I would take Latin III with a provider that is not as rigorous. Imo, Lukeion Latin is overkill for your D's future goals.

Good luck!

OnMyOwn · May 10, 2016

I wouldn't want to drop the Latin after the time you've already invested in it. If she takes one more year, then she can take the SAT II subject test for Latin which will document her accomplishment. I'd look for a course that is less intense than Lukeion, though, if her schedule is too full. My dd has a very heavy schedule as well, and I've really wanted to put her in the Lukeion classes the last couple of years because I've heard so many positive reviews. I've gone as far as to have her take their placement test this year, which she passed, but then decided her schedule is too busy as it is. My dd has never spent more than 2-3 hours on Latin homework, but she is very solid on her Latin knowledge and has gotten a gold on the NLE each year.

Some other less intense Latin options are Lone Pine and CLRC. I know there are a lot of other Latin providers (Wilson Hill, The Harvey Center) out there, but I don't know what kind of a time commitment is involved.

snowbeltmom · May 10, 2016

That's a good question. I've only checked with Grove City and was told that with only two years of Latin she would have to take a (I think) modern language in college. With 3 years of Latin, then she would need to take 6 hours in college. With 4 years and a 4 on the AP test, then she wouldn't have to take any foreign language. I'm just wondering if she gets science degree, will she need a foreign language. My husband has an engineering degree from Texas A&M, and he never had to take a foreign language. Therefore he would have not needed AP Latin. That was a while back and things may have changed. Thanks for bringing this up. I need to look into it.

While the vast majority of colleges specify that a foreign language should be studied in high school, whether or not a student has to study a foreign language in college will depend on the college, and sometimes, the type of degree pursued.

My oldest did not want to take a foreign language in college. As a result, he only applied to schools that didn't have a foreign language requirement.

My high school junior ,who is also adamant that he doesn't want to study a foreign language in college, is not as "techy" as his brother and found that liberal arts schools were a better fit for him. While many of the liberal arts schools have a foreign language requirement, he was able to find an excellent fit that doesn't have that requirement. Other schools that were in his top 4 choices had a foreign language requirement if the student pursued a BA degree, but did not have a foreign language requirement if the student pursued a B.S.

Fwiw, my kids study Latin with an online provider. I am not having them validate their learning by taking the SAT II exam in Latin as I am not sure how well their Latin classes align with the SAT II and I don't want them spending additional time studying for that test. While there a some colleges that make a homeschooler validate his learning by taking an SAT II in every subject category, those schools are in the minority and are immediately crossed off my kids' lists.

The vast majority of schools do not require SAT II exams. Even schools that required them a few years ago when my oldest was going through the process no longer require SAT II's. Having said that, I still have my kids take a math and science SAT II. However, the school my junior will be attending just dropped the SAT II requirement and the other school that was at the top of his list said that while the SAT II's are required, they are only considered if they help the applicant and are ignored otherwise.

Bottom line: If your child does not want to study a foreign language in college, there are many colleges out there to choose from that meet that criteria.

Good luck!

mbrady · May 10, 2016

Thank you all for your helpful suggestions!

Lori- you are amazing! That is exactly what I needed. I so appreciate all of your time and effort. Thank you for the sample transcript and the college requirements; it is so helpful to see it all laid out like that.

First, the Saxon we use includes Geometry in Algebra 1 and 2. Lisa, I like how you titled them Integrated Math 1 and 2. She is planning to take Calculus her senior year.

Second, it appears that I need to plan some electives! So, she is going to take SAT prep with WTMA this summer and that counts as .5 credit. She also needs to squeeze in .5 credit of economics.

Question- She is a fairly good piano student. Her piano teacher, who has a masters in piano from Wheaton, said that the piece that she is working on now is a good audition piece for music school- just to give you an idea of the level she is at. She has no desire to study music in college. However, at this level can I count her practice time and weekly lessons as an elective, maybe call it Applied Piano? If she practiced an hour a day then it would be 1 credit hour. Or is it best to list piano as an extracurricular activity.

I was also thinking of using the music theory book that the WTMA uses for their Music Theory class, and that would be .5 fine art credit. I would still need another .5 credit.

Third- extracurricular activities. The past two summers she has attended Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama. I realized that it isn't a prestigious, selective camp, but she did get 1 hour of college credit. Can this 1 hour be creatively translated into .5 high school credit-probably not ; )?

She is in an amateur astronomy club and occasionally helps teach classes to elementary school kids. Now I realize she needs to step this up and try to do more.

She volunteers at an organization that sends food to children in Nicaragua. She is saving up money to take a mission trip there- possibly next summer. Again, something to prioritize.

She is planning to participate in Teen Pact in the spring as part of the government co-op class.

She is also very active in church activities (sings in choir, preached sermon for youth Sunday, teaches kids' church, participates in camps and mission trips.)

I'm not sure how much of this to include and how to include it on a transcript. I need to look online for sample transcripts.

Fourth- Latin. It makes me sad to for her to quit it after all the hard work she's put in, so I think she will continue. You are right about Lukeion being an overkill, but she really likes Mrs. Barr, and especially Dr. Fisher. I don't think she will want to go elsewhere, but I don't want her to get Bs with Lukeion when she could get As through a less intense latin provider. My guess is that colleges are not aware of the rigor of Lukeion classes.

This has been so helpful. Thank you to all who have replied.

LisaKinVA · May 10, 2016

So, she is going to take SAT prep with WTMA this summer and that counts as .5 credit.

**I'm not saying it's not ever given a credit, I just haven't seen it done. Usually SAT Prep is considered extracurricular/co-curricular.

She also needs to squeeze in .5 credit of economics.

**Probably.

Question- She is a fairly good piano student. Her piano teacher, who has a masters in piano from Wheaton, said that the piece that she is working on now is a good audition piece for music school- just to give you an idea of the level she is at. She has no desire to study music in college. However, at this level can I count her practice time and weekly lessons as an elective, maybe call it Applied Piano? If she practiced an hour a day then it would be 1 credit hour. Or is it best to list piano as an extracurricular activity.

I was also thinking of using the music theory book that the WTMA uses for their Music Theory class, and that would be .5 fine art credit. I would still need another .5 credit.

**Definitely a Fine Arts Credit. Music Study is routinely given credit all four years of high school. If she includes some Theory study (at her level, she's probably through most of what would be required, you should grab an AP Music Theory Prep book and take a practice test to see how she does. This was a test area I easily passed without additional study (I had been studying music 10 years by that point). If she's practicing 1 hour a day, it would definitely be a full credit. Applied Piano, you could number them 1-4 if you'd like. You could also break the Theory book down into 2 years (just to lighten the load).

Third- extracurricular activities. The past two summers she has attended Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama. I realized that it isn't a prestigious, selective camp, but she did get 1 hour of college credit. Can this 1 hour be creatively translated into .5 high school credit-probably not ; )?

Maybe...if you calculate the hours and can estimate at least 60 spent in class/projects/study, I'd say 0.5 credit, easily. But, I'd only count that once as a course transript item, and as an extracuriccular after that *unless* the course is signficantly different or escalates in challenge.

She is in an amateur astronomy club and occasionally helps teach classes to elementary school kids. Now I realize she needs to step this up and try to do more.

She volunteers at an organization that sends food to children in Nicaragua. She is saving up money to take a mission trip there- possibly next summer. Again, something to prioritize.

She is planning to participate in Teen Pact in the spring as part of the government co-op class.

She is also very active in church activities (sings in choir, preached sermon for youth Sunday, teaches kids' church, participates in camps and mission trips.)

I'm not sure how much of this to include and how to include it on a transcript. I need to look online for sample transcripts.

**Most of these are definitely extracurricular activities. The gov't co-op class could be a .5 credit in gov't, or maybe add some extra readings and a paper in to bring it to a .5 credit.

Fourth- Latin. It makes me sad to for her to quit it after all the hard work she's put in, so I think she will continue. You are right about Lukeion being an overkill, but she really likes Mrs. Barr, and especially Dr. Fisher. I don't think she will want to go elsewhere, but I don't want her to get Bs with Lukeion when she could get As through a less intense latin provider. My guess is that colleges are not aware of the rigor of Lukeion classes.

**Nope, most won't know the rigor of Lukeion classes. Some may. It sounds like you are well on your way to a wonderful transcript! I hope you and your daughter have a great junior year!