Guilty feelings - IQ

[mrhmhy]

This might be rambling, but I'm hoping this board will understand.  My first son, W, is 6 yrs old and highly gifted.  No IQ test yet, but I just watched an old video of him when he just turned 3, explaining the definition of simultaneous and the difference between herbivores and carnivores.  He was special from the day he was born, always thinking and watching.  

 

My 2nd one, R, is 3 yrs old and K is about to be 1.  They're average IQ but nothing outstanding.  R can count to 10 by rote but that's about it.  He's fun and sweet, but nothing special for intelligence.  

 

If that was just the way he was I'd be fine.  But with W's pregnancy I did EVERYTHINg right.  I ate all the right things, no sugar, took all my vitamins plus extra choline and other stuff, listened to classical music and played the baby IQ  beats (forgot the name).  And I wasn't stressed, I was so happy.

 

With my other 2 I was having marriage issues and under lots of stress from fighting with hubby.  I also had tough pregnancies so was on prednisone which caused sugar cravings.  I never got enough sleep, I didn't take my vitamins (did take fish oil though, but not multivitamin or choline) and didn't do any of the music stuff.

 

I'm feeling so guilty because I know those things make a difference and I keep wondering everyday what they'd be like if I had done things right.  I just don't know what to do.  I'm having a really hard time with the guilt.   Not sure why I'm posting here but talking to friends/family about feeling guilty because kids are average IQ instead of gifted just doesn't work...

[maize]

I'm sorry you're feeling bad, I think part of being a mom is sometimes feeling guilty; we want the world for our kids and bumping up against reality (including our own limitations) can be hard.

 

I wouldn't be placing any bets on the IQs of a three year old and a one year old, though. You really don't know, kids develop on their own timetable and gifted doesn't always mean obviously precocious. What you do know is that you have three unique, amazing children full of potential and set to forge their own individual paths through life.

[TerriM]

While I realize that you can probably correlate each of those things with maybe 2-3 IQ points, I really don't think that you can or should take blame or guilt for them being who they are.  My first kid is really smart like yours--I didn't take vitamins, and I was living on rice krispie treats, ice cream, and pizza the last month of the pregnancy staying up until 4am working.   I did much better with the second kid, but he came out determined to be his own person.  Maybe it's my fault for eating healthy, but he came out pure muscle, rolled over at 2 weeks, crawled at 4 months and decided he was in charge of his life period.  He will never test as well as #1 because he believes what he believes over what others teach him.  I once had an argument with him about how many second were in a minute and I finally gave up because I figured by the time he was 18 he'd have it right, so why fight with him now?  The saddest thing is that he's very musically gifted but piano lessons were a bust because he didn't want to do what the teacher told him, and he wouldn't practice what she gave him. 

 

Maybe eating better was worse for *my* kids?  

 

Truth is that it's a crapshoot.  Yeah, there are things we might've done (even upon doctor's advice) that do cause harm, but overall, you have to accept that you get what you get and 90% of it is not under your control.  And the part that is under your control--what you feed them, how much rest they get, how you love them, and what you let them watch on TV--is still under your control *right now*.

 

Funny thing is when you have a super kid like #1, you think you did everything right, and sometimes you look at other parents  and wonder why they have a high-strung kid who is stomping on flowers and destroying things, and you think "soda? caffeine?  lack of control? bad parenting?"  and then #2 comes along, and you go "crap... It was never me in the first place."    For a long time, I called #2 "My humility."  It sounds like you've taken both sides of this on yourself--you look at yourself as #1's mom and judge yourself for the others.  Don't do it.  It's not your fault.

 

And all that said, what matters most is that

1.  They love you and you have a good relationship with them

2.  When they're adults, they're gainfully employed and supporting themselves and their family.

 

Intelligence does *not* guarantee either one of those.  It's a great attribute, but ultimately hard work and perserverence wins the day.

Edited May 9, 2016 by tiuzzol2

[Mike in SA]

I think it's a bit unfair to assume anything at this point. IQ is not that easy to diagnose. But, if the first one turns out to be the outlier, it doesn't help the others any to blame yourself for making them inferior. What child wants or needs such a label?

[mathnerd]

The giftedness experts always say that if you have seen a gifted child, you have seen a gifted child. Gifted children are all unique - some are outwardly bright (this is one of the stereotypes that goes with gifted kids - they are expected to shine and sparkle in conversations, while in reality, many don't), some read early, some read late, some are prodigies, some have no specific areas of interest, some can talk precociously at an early age, some are speech delayed, some can build legos and puzzles beyond their age expectations and some have fine motor skill deficiencies etc etc. Most siblings that are gifted have IQs close to each other. You will only know how much giftedness your kids have when you get them IQ tested. Please do not assume that the younger kids have a lower IQ than the older one - it could be that the younger ones have different areas of strength or that they are not outwardly bright.

[Tanaqui]

Two things. First, all those things you did with your kid when he was a baby? They're bonus. They maybe add a point or two on an IQ test - and IQ tests aren't even considered reliable until age 8 or 9 anyway. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

 

Second, it's okay to have some regrets over the past. However, if you're really feeling very bad about yourself over something that, even if it were true that you caused, is extremely minor (most people are average, after all), then that's a problem. Not for your kids, necessarily, but for you. I don't know exactly what you mean by "a lot of guilt", but if it's profoundly affecting your life then I strongly urge you to speak to a doctor to be screened for depression.

[SounderChick]

One not all kids giftedness is a readily apparent I honestly thought and still at times think DD1 sounds like a moron but she is total math, big picture type genius with some quirks.   Two I was like the worst pregnant lady ever and still have 2 gifted kids.  Life is messy and their is no such thing as a perfect mom or perfect pregnancy.

Edited May 9, 2016 by rebcoola

[Tsuga]

This might be rambling, but I'm hoping this board will understand.  My first son, W, is 6 yrs old and highly gifted.  No IQ test yet, but I just watched an old video of him when he just turned 3, explaining the definition of simultaneous and the difference between herbivores and carnivores.  He was special from the day he was born, always thinking and watching.  

 

My 2nd one, R, is 3 yrs old and K is about to be 1.  They're average IQ but nothing outstanding.  R can count to 10 by rote but that's about it.  He's fun and sweet, but nothing special for intelligence.  

 

If that was just the way he was I'd be fine.  But with W's pregnancy I did EVERYTHINg right.  I ate all the right things, no sugar, took all my vitamins plus extra choline and other stuff, listened to classical music and played the baby IQ  beats (forgot the name).  And I wasn't stressed, I was so happy.

 

With my other 2 I was having marriage issues and under lots of stress from fighting with hubby.  I also had tough pregnancies so was on prednisone which caused sugar cravings.  I never got enough sleep, I didn't take my vitamins (did take fish oil though, but not multivitamin or choline) and didn't do any of the music stuff.

 

I'm feeling so guilty because I know those things make a difference and I keep wondering everyday what they'd be like if I had done things right.  I just don't know what to do.  I'm having a really hard time with the guilt.   Not sure why I'm posting here but talking to friends/family about feeling guilty because kids are average IQ instead of gifted just doesn't work...

 

If doing everything right would make your child gifted, a lot more people would have gifted kids.

 

I understand the guilt of not being able to make everything come easily to all the kids, but think about the implications of what you're suggesting here.

 

If it's your "fault" that your other kids are not exceptionally gifted, then does that imply that only .001% of moms did "everything right"?

 

The mom I know who did absolutely EVERYTHING EVERYTHING right had a child with autism.

 

Stop giving yourself credit for creating a gifted kid with your excellent habits and stop "blaming" yourself for kids that are happy, healthy, and have reasonably average intellects. That's nothing to "blame" yourself for or credit yourself for. It's genetics, the luck of the draw.

 

You can affect your child to some extent with your behavior but that's only how things average out in a population. For an individual--that is not how it works. Some people smoke crack and have perfect healthy babies with no holes in their brains and other people do everything "right" and have children with MS.

 

This isn't karma, this isn't justice. It's always a genetic lottery. You can improve your ODDS but you never know.

 

The guilt might stay but guilt over not churning out four children who are all exceptional in the same way doesn't make sense.

[Grover]

At risk of repeating the others 1) too soon to tell on the younger ones - they're all different, 2) you didn't make one gifted any more than you made one not gifted, if you were people would pay you to find out how you did it. I'll add a 3) if you do have "just bright" or even "average" instead of normal, and you did magically cause that to happen, you did them a favour.  The life of a gifted person isn't something most people dealing with it would recommend.  The bright ones are the lucky ones.

[Targhee]

Three things

 

1) I a sorry you are feeling those guilt pains. Guilt is not good, but somehow we all trap ourselves into feeling it. You're a good mama, doing your best for your kids. Don't second guess what you have already done.

 

2) My oldest is my most gifted (by IQ that is) and when I was pregnant with her I was student teaching, stressed, vomitting multiple times a day and trying to squeeze in ding dongs and French fries when my stomach could handle it, I was 40 lbs overweight before getting pregnant, wasn't exercising, moved across country and got a little lonely and depressed... My youngest, who had the best prenatal treatment in terms of what I was doing, and she is probably my most average kid. This is part of who they are - seriously, the come this way. So unless you are eating paint chips, knocking back margaritas, or have some serious medical condition that you weren't treating you probably did not do anything to improve or lessen your child's IQ.

 

3) There is more than one way to be gifted. You may see obvious things in your first child, but the gifts in your younger two may not be so obvious. Siblings are generally within a small range of each other IQ wise. Even then, IQ does not measure all areas of giftedness.

 

Don't despair. Love them, treat them all like the wonderful unique individuals they are. Love yourself, and be proud of being their mama!

[Epicurean]

I am so sorry our culture has laid these feelings on you. Doctors, websites and health boards should make clear, factual, neutral statements about the possible health benefits of certain practices (yes, I said possible--for example, some studies show that taking multivitamins is actually bad for you) and that's it. No pressure. No guilt trips. No fear mongering. No flimsy excuse to try to make mothers feel like other people have a right to manage THEIR pregnancies through emotional manipulation.

 

You can't make a baby genius by doing x or y. I've studied IQ for years, and all the data I've seen confirms that as parents, we can't really raise the ceiling for our kids. We can't even lower it, unless we resort to starving or abusing them. Let go of this responsibility. I know it's scary that we have so little control over biology, and a little disappointing we can't take much credit for it either (beyond passing down good genes and giving our kids with lots of learning opportunities). Your children are their own people. Let them be their own people. Comparison is the thief of joy.

[freesia]

I agree that it's way to early to "tell". My oldest was/is very outwardly verbal-a very early talker, presented as gifted, etc. neither of my next two did. However, all these years later you would not be able to tell the difference between my older two. She is an incredibly diligent student with obvious writing gifts ( can't tell that in a three year old for sure). He presents now as just run of the mill bright. I have found that those who say character is the most important are right. My goal now is to teach them perseverance, peace making, how to live well with each other, life balance, trust in God and joy. If course we have high academic standards, but I've learned to be less impressed with intelligence .

 

As an aside--we have a number of profoundly gifted people in my family of origin. There is nothing about their lives as adults that is 'better' than those who are merely bright. My Mom-a former preschool teacher who is the mother and widow of pg individuals-always said that extremely giftedness often comes with areas of extreme difficulty and that most parents don't realize that what they really want is a child who is bright enough to to be able to pursue any path they desire.

 

Embrace your "gloriously ordinary" children. They will teach and love you as much as any other and they will do fine in life.

[....]

My first son, W, is 6 yrs old and highly gifted.  No IQ test yet, but I just watched an old video of him when he just turned 3, explaining the definition of simultaneous and the difference between herbivores and carnivores.  He was special from the day he was born, always thinking and watching.  

 

My 2nd one, R, is 3 yrs old and K is about to be 1.  They're average IQ but nothing outstanding.  R can count to 10 by rote but that's about it.  He's fun and sweet, but nothing special for intelligence.  

 

 

 

You have no idea what they're going to be like when they're older - they're so little!!  

 

My teenage son could not read until the beginning of 3rd grade.   :mellow:   If I even told him to write a sentence, he would cry and throw a tantrum.  Turns out, he is an athlete and a wonderful teacher.  That's his "thing".  He is really into this one sport. He's the youngest certified instructor at their school and he is actually trying to go for a World Champ title this year.  He also teaches the sport to special needs kids and adults in the evenings.  Schoolwork eventually came together for him.  He is exactly where he should be with school.  But when he was little - oh, my goodness - he was a lunatic.  He tried to run out in front of every car that passed by.  He could not sit quietly in church until he was 5.  One time, he took off running during service and tried to climb into the baptismal font.   :leaving:     I am constantly getting compliments about him from other parents - what an incredible role model he is for their kids.  If only you guys knew what a nut he was when he was little!   :tongue_smilie:

 

I described my now-11 year old in the other gifted thread.  She could not start "school" until she was 7.  She couldn't sit still for more than a couple of minutes, she couldn't focus, she didn't want to learn how to read, she would constantly move/chew on her shirt/roll her pencil, etc.  So, she was behind her ps peers for several years.  She's not behind anymore.  She is very fine arts-oriented.  She is constantly looking at paintings, sketching, doing portraits from photographs, working with clay, sewing, teaching herself some kind of craft, watching art videos from other countries, etc.  We put her in art classes at a studio for a couple of years and ended up pulling her out so she could have private lessons with a teacher one-on-one.  She wants to major in fine arts in college.

 

My point is...both of these kids looked like lunatics compared to my oldest - who was the Perfect Child.   :Angel_anim:    People swooned when she walked in the room, hanging on every word she said, amazed at how grown-up/smart she was and cringed when the Crazies somersaulted in after her. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Evanthe

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, my DX'd PG kid was a horrible pregnancy. I had pregnancy induced hypertension bordering on pre-eclampsia with seizure-type episodes from about 20 weeks on, was on phenobarbital to control seizures, was on bedrest, and was just plain sick. She ended up being born by emergency C-section at 34 1/2 weeks, and we were glad to get that. She had oral motor and low oral tone from birth, was diffcult to feed, and was a fussy baby. The only thing I was able to do "right" was that, when she was unable to nurse, I exclusively pumped for 10 months, and pumped for 2 full years. Darn it, she was at least going to get that breastmilk! I was so focused on the Delayed motor skills that I missed that she was so verbal until people started commenting on it, and missed that she was teaching herself to read until she started reading signs with no picture cues whatsoever. Even then, I was so focused on the quirks that "gifted" didn't cross my mind until the autism clinic told me that she probably was PG and that she'd completely hit the ceiling on their IQ screener.

 

It's completely anecdotal, but I've noticed that a lot of moms of PG kids have had similarly harrowing pregnancies.

[wapiti]

Please let this go.  You have absolutely no idea what the IQ of the little ones will be.  And, it's highly unlikely that your stressful pregnancies had an affect.  While sometimes early development can indicate high IQ, the reverse is not true:  normal or delayed development does not indicate non-high IQ.  (I am speaking from extensive experience with high !Qs, stressful pregnancies and delayed development :tongue_smilie:)

Edited May 9, 2016 by wapiti

[slackermom]

My dd was really fast with the physical milestones, but seemed pretty average with verbal skills as a baby. At age 11 she scored 99.9% on the verbal portion of an IQ test. So, who knows how it will turn out?

 

Also, I tried to eat right, etc, during pregnancy, but had a really hard time keeping food down, with the exception of junk food. I had so many convenience store snack cakes that dh said we should name dd Little Debbie.

 

I say make peace with the past, and focus on being there for your kids now.

[Cake and Pi]

I am so sorry our culture has laid these feelings on you. Doctors, websites and health boards should make clear, factual, neutral statements about the possible health benefits of certain practices (yes, I said possible--for example, some studies show that taking multivitamins is actually bad for you) and that's it. No pressure. No guilt trips. No fear mongering. No flimsy excuse to try to make mothers feel like other people have a right to manage THEIR pregnancies through emotional manipulation.

 

You can't make a baby genius by doing x or y. I've studied IQ for years, and all the data I've seen confirms that as parents, we can't really raise the ceiling for our kids. We can't even lower it, unless we resort to starving or abusing them. Let go of this responsibility. I know it's scary that we have so little control over biology, and a little disappointing we can't take much credit for it either (beyond passing down good genes and giving our kids with lots of learning opportunities). Your children are their own people. Let them be their own people. Comparison is the thief of joy.

 

^^ This.  So incredibly this.

 

OP, I feel you on the guilt over what-ifs.  There were some pretty significant pregnancy complications and an eventful 3 weeks in the NICU for my DS#4.  I always wonder what I could or should have done differently.  He's hit *all* of his milestones at about twice the age my older three did.  He's also below-the-first-percentile small (22lbs at 32mo).  It can really, really hurt to compare him to his brothers, or even to other people's kids.   I have to make a conscious effort to see him as an individual and compare him to himself at a younger age.  When I do, I find that I am delighted by who he is and what he can do.

 

Also agreeing with what you've heard like 13 times already: you can't necessarily judge IQ by early (or even later) performance.  I test gifted and I didn't learn to read until I was 9yo, never memorized my multiplication facts, still have atrocious spelling and handwriting, etc..

[mrhmhy]

Thanks all for the comments.  I know I shouldn't compare but it's tough.  And #1 has his challenges - he could be diagnosed autistic if we wanted to go that route.  He's very OCD about things, and was definitely a tough baby.  Thank goodness he was my first or I would've lost my mind (I just thought that's what babies were like).  He's got social issues mainly because other 6 yr olds aren't interested in the detailed facts about rocks & gems, or different breeds of chickens (his 2 current obsessions).  But he's actually a lot like me so I understand him and even though it's tough at times, it's fun to learn with him (I had to get out my highschool chemistry textbooks and relearn it when he got into elements).  It's not just reading or math.  When he was a baby he just watched & you could tell he was always thinking.  His physical milestones were average, and he didn't say a word until 2 1/2 (but signed sentences), but he did a 12 piece puzzle at 20 mths, and built his first (regular size) Lego set at 2 (followed instructions if I found the pieces).  

 

#2 is so far apart that I struggle to even teach either of them because I have to teach separately.  I had always thought #2 would tag along and learn some by just being there.  He's nowhere close.  When he was younger I hope he'd just have different strengths, maybe he'd be good with his hands and construction stuff, but he just doesn't seem to get anything.  And I'm sad because I hoped he'd be a friend for W, and I wanted them to be close.  W tries really hard to teach him things but then gets frustrated when R just doesn't get it.  Today he tried teaching him the difference between meat and vegetables and R just could never get it.  I hope it'll change as he gets older, but I just don't see it.  He just doesn't seem to ever really think or contemplate stuff.  He's definitely extroverted and both W & I are introverts so maybe that's part of it.  I love them all, I just wish I had done the same for both of them.

 

I read a study from Canada which showed that one single severely stressful even in pregnancy could lower IQ by an average of 6 points (study done during massive Canadian snowstorm).  So what did 9 mths of stress do?  I know cortisol kills brain cells.  And I know choline boosts memory (took it with W, didn't with R).  I'm trying to focus on future, but I just keep thinking about what might have been.  

[Xahm]

I'm sorry you're feeling stress and guilt now, but I think you already have figured out that intelligence is only one small aspect of your children. It certainly isn't the aspect most closely linked to future happiness. I get wanting your kids to be able to really "get" each other, I really do, but can you imagine how gifted your three year old would have to be to actually be a good conversation partner with your highly gifted six year old? Give it time and enjoy all the aspects of your kids' personalities.

By the way, my parents thought I was the dumb kid. My older brother was highly verbal about his thoughts and took to math early. When adults asked me questions, I tended to just stare at them. In my mind, if I knew the answer and this adult didn't, it either meant something was weird about this adult or I didn't really know what I thought I did. I didn't even let my parents know I could read because I thought they would get embarrassed if they knew I knew how many rules they were breaking (like "always closely monitor children's teeth brushing before age six" and "do not remove the tag from this mattress.) I learned to play the school game in second grade or so, but I still tried to keep things to myself. I passed my older brother in all areas of academic achievement when I was about 12 and he was about 18. So really, don't try to guess too much what your kids will be like. I do all the time, though, so it's advice more easily given than taken.

You are an involved mother who is taking an active interest in your children and their development. That's going to make far more difference to your children and their future than anything you did in the past.

[SKL]

I don't believe doing all those "perfect" things has that much effect on IQ.  Most likely your eldest was wired to be more intelligent than the others (or more intelligent in the ways you are noticing) regardless of all that.  Most gifted kids are born gifted despite having parents who did few or none of those things.

 

I have one gifted kid and one average-IQ kid.  My average-IQ kid has so many traits that will contribute to success.  Sometimes she even does better in school because she is more organized, hard-working, observant, communicative, practical.  Give your kids a chance to show their talents.  10 years from now you may be singing a different tune.

 

PS my gifted kid was born to a poor single mom in a developing country, then fostered by a modest-income family for 9 months before coming home to me.  I guarantee she didn't have any of those baby brilliance boosters before or after birth.  :P

[....]

By the way, my parents thought I was the dumb kid. My older brother was highly verbal about his thoughts and took to math early. When adults asked me questions, I tended to just stare at them. In my mind, if I knew the answer and this adult didn't, it either meant something was weird about this adult or I didn't really know what I thought I did. I didn't even let my parents know I could read because I thought they would get embarrassed if they knew I knew how many rules they were breaking (like "always closely monitor children's teeth brushing before age six" and "do not remove the tag from this mattress.) 

 

:lol:   This cracked me up!  I had a "do not remove tag under penalty of law" argument with my kids once.  

[SanDiegoMom]

Well, another anecdote -- my oldest daughter is gifted (especially in the art of opposition! ha!) is has always been labeled precocious from an early age.  And then I had twins (IVF) and while both are also labeled gifted, there is a pretty large gulf between the two of them.  The twin pregnancy I did everything right that I could, except for keeping up with vitamins, and I did have sushi a couple of times and definitely coffee once a day... But for my oldest I was pretty young and struggling with an eating disorder, didn't actually find out as I was pregnant til I was five months (long story) and had been basically starving my kid, as I saw it, for five months.  I gained 15 pounds during the entire pregnancy, and was back to my pre-pregnancy weight a week after birth.  And yet she came out completely normal -- hit all the milestones with no problem, and just got a perfect score on the SAT verbal section. Could she have been a few points higher? I don't think I'd care if she was.  Because honestly of all my kids I suspect that the one with the highest IQ will actually have the hardest time in life compared to his siblings. My youngest daughter who if we were to test would probably come out the "least" gifted has the easiest going personality, sees everyone as a friend, approaches life with a happy go lucky attitude, always looks for the best in people... I could go on and on.  She is so lucky! My more gifted kids are so much more intense and unstable! And all of that goes to personality more than pregnancy.

 

Oh and one more thing... your younger kids are so young.  We seriously worried about our youngest daughter when she was 3-6 years old.  The gulf seemed SO wide between her and her twin.  She just seemed so behind! But now at 10 she is articulate, caring, smart, loves learning, writes well -- so even if she doesn't keep up with her brother, she is pretty far ahead of most other kids her age and impresses most people with her work ethic and her kindness. And her dancing and music. (which at the age of four we had no clue as to her musical ability -- so you might be surprised as yours get older!) 

[Dmmetler]

:lol: This cracked me up! I had a "do not remove tag under penalty of law" argument with my kids once.

My DD once had a meltdown on a playground because "I can't go on the equipment! It says for ages 5-12, and I'm only 3!!"

[maize]

:lol:   This cracked me up!  I had a "do not remove tag under penalty of law" argument with my kids once.  

 

Oh, I remember an argument like this with my oldest, it as over some warning on a shampoo bottle I think? Something to do with supervision of children.

[Tsuga]

 

 

I read a study from Canada which showed that one single severely stressful even in pregnancy could lower IQ by an average of 6 points (study done during massive Canadian snowstorm).  So what did 9 mths of stress do?  I know cortisol kills brain cells.  And I know choline boosts memory (took it with W, didn't with R).  I'm trying to focus on future, but I just keep thinking about what might have been.  

 

I don't think it's as simple as that.

 

There are so many confounding factors.

 

I also think that you're misunderstanding the point of those studies. Statistics about a population for the purposes of prediction and public policy are not meant to be used as explanations for individual behavior.

 

The numbers don't work that way. We cannot--we can. not.--statistically interpolate causation on an individual level. Like for any given person, they might be the exception. It's because we are missing so much data and there's so much noise and randomness.

 

Also, the IQ is really nice, isn't it? It's this nice little number. It's a badge. "See, here's my proof. I did it right. I did okay." That's nice to have. You'd like that for all your kids. Wouldn't we all? Wouldn't we all like a number that proved that we weren't such crappy moms after all?

 

The thing is... it's meaningless. It's like being the tallest, the best hair, the biggest feet, the smallest waist, etc. Oh sure it helps but you know what else helps?

 

You want to feel like you have proof of being a successful mom at least in pregnancy but here's the thing... the IQ doesn't even say that. It says you obviously did not screw up so incredibly badly as to make your child incontrovertibly developmentally delayed due to causes that are certainly pre-natal in nature. That's it. That's all you have.

 

And you have it for all four kids.

 

All you can do is love your kids.

 

You get no proof that you were good enough, that you succeeded. IQ is not that proof. My mom did everything wrong (everything! stress, smoking, drinking before she knew she was pregnant, couldn't breastfeed, poor, blah blah blah) and while I'm not profoundly gifted by the standards of the society I'm in, I was reading sentences by three, reading chapter books by late three, and taught myself long division by seven for fun. I did average in school, getting exactly the same marks in the gifted program as in the regular program--generally I aced the tests and got 0s in homework no matter what the program--as I spent the entire time writing books under the desk.

 

Do you think that my mom should look at me and wonder why my sister "only" got As in school and was bright, and think, "gee, I should have smoked with both of them?"

 

Even some really hateful people have compassionate kids.

 

All we can do is do our best and know it's never enough--every time, gifted or not, disabled or not, ASD or not, cute or not, oppositional or not, funny or not.

[8filltheheart]

Based on the logic of the Op posts, when I was young, healthy, incredibly content with life, super excited about my first baby and doing everything right (exercising, eating incredibly well), etc should have produced my most intelligent child. When I was in my 40s, exhausted all the time, too busy raising a huge family to really give a 2nd thought to the fact I was even pregnant with my 9th child, she should be the least bright of them all. (I mean seriously, I was in my 40s and my body had been depleted by 8 other full term babies! (Not really seriously from my perspective, just my serious mocking of modern thinking.)

 

Well, reality is nothing like that. My oldest is bright, but my youngest by all 6yr old measures exceeds all of her older siblings. Our second child, a daughter, was stillborn full-term and I got pregnant with our 2nd son 6 weeks later. That ds is the only child whose IQ we know and it is very high, but he is also an Aspie who suffers from high anxiety. ((Is he autistic bc my pregnancies were so close together? Maybe. But then again, there are a lot of autistic kids who don't fit that profile. A lot of people suffer from high anxiety without that profile.) My #4 & #5 are incredibly gifted, but # 4 didn't read on grade level until late 4th/early 5th grade bc he is dyslexic. Now at 20 he is a 4.0 physics and math major who will be taking grad level physics classes in the fall. #7 is very average academically, but she has the sweetest personality in the world and I am so blessed by who she is!

 

One thing I can state with absolute certainty is that the only thing that matters is helping them become the best them they can be, whatever that may be. I may have made poor decisions during pregnancy, but making bad parenting decisions are far worse. I do control the outcomes of those decisions. I have made parenting mistakes and the repercussions of those are very real and not hypothetical.

 

Putting our energies into the things we can control is good parenting. Wasting our time worrying about the things that we have no control over or cannot change is counterproductive. Our children are physically present before us as who they are and they need us to be focused on the precious beings they are now. I have made decisions that have had long-term positive outcomes on my kids' lives and those are the ones that matter to them.

 

For example, my #4....I never let him know he was behind in reading. He never knew that if he was in school he would have been labeled and considered severely behind and unlikely to ever achieve the levels he has. Kids not reading in ps by the end of 3rd grade are pretty much stigmatized by the system. The fact that by 8th grade he was significantly advanced across the board would never have been a reality in a school. Graduating from high school with 300 level college credits would not have been his reality. Far more likely he would have been put on a vocational/gen track early on.

 

So what matters more? What I might or might not have done when I was pregnant? Or what I did do when he was growing up?

 

Btw, I have never thought about my kids' "intelligence" as something defining them. They are so much more and they change and blossom so much as they grow. Kids do things at different rates. (Ironically my earliest reader and 2nd earliest talker was only a slightly above avg high school student. She only pursued a 2 yr Allied Health degree. If you had compared her and #4 at 6, no way you would have thought #4 would be the one planning to pursue grad school in physics. )

 

Celebrate who they are.

Edited May 12, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[SKL]

And the other day I saw a headline (didn't have time to look further) about a study saying that autism is highly correlated with high levels of folate and vitamin B12 IIRC.  You know, those supplements they said pregnant women should take to give their kids the best shot.

 

Loving our kids is really the best thing we can do for them.  It won't make them brilliant, but it will help them to develop whatever talents they are meant to have.

Edited May 13, 2016 by SKL

[Tanaqui]

Point of fact, SKL, pregnant women take folate to prevent spina bifida, not to "give their kids the best shot". Prenatal supplements of folate have been amazingly successful at reducing spina bifida in the population.

 

Also, that headline was a little premature.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Thanks all for the comments.  I know I shouldn't compare but it's tough.  And #1 has his challenges - he could be diagnosed autistic if we wanted to go that route.  He's very OCD about things, and was definitely a tough baby.  Thank goodness he was my first or I would've lost my mind (I just thought that's what babies were like).  He's got social issues mainly because other 6 yr olds aren't interested in the detailed facts about rocks & gems, or different breeds of chickens (his 2 current obsessions).  But he's actually a lot like me so I understand him and even though it's tough at times, it's fun to learn with him (I had to get out my highschool chemistry textbooks and relearn it when he got into elements).  It's not just reading or math.  When he was a baby he just watched & you could tell he was always thinking.  His physical milestones were average, and he didn't say a word until 2 1/2 (but signed sentences), but he did a 12 piece puzzle at 20 mths, and built his first (regular size) Lego set at 2 (followed instructions if I found the pieces).  

 

#2 is so far apart that I struggle to even teach either of them because I have to teach separately.  I had always thought #2 would tag along and learn some by just being there.  He's nowhere close.  When he was younger I hope he'd just have different strengths, maybe he'd be good with his hands and construction stuff, but he just doesn't seem to get anything.  And I'm sad because I hoped he'd be a friend for W, and I wanted them to be close.  W tries really hard to teach him things but then gets frustrated when R just doesn't get it.  Today he tried teaching him the difference between meat and vegetables and R just could never get it.  I hope it'll change as he gets older, but I just don't see it.  He just doesn't seem to ever really think or contemplate stuff.  He's definitely extroverted and both W & I are introverts so maybe that's part of it.  I love them all, I just wish I had done the same for both of them.

 

I read a study from Canada which showed that one single severely stressful even in pregnancy could lower IQ by an average of 6 points (study done during massive Canadian snowstorm).  So what did 9 mths of stress do?  I know cortisol kills brain cells.  And I know choline boosts memory (took it with W, didn't with R).  I'm trying to focus on future, but I just keep thinking about what might have been.  

 

 

If I understand correctly, you have a (undiagnosed) autistic "savant" child (can't remember if savant is still an ok word, not trying to offend!) and two normal children.  And you feel guilty that the oldest is so much more intelligent than the youngers.  Do you believe his entire life will be "better" than theirs?  He has gifts, yes, but he will also face profound challenges that your younger boys probably won't.  It seems like you are assigning value (not love, necessarily, though you mention you are closest to the oldest because he is "like you") to intellectual potential, when in fact, value is INHERENT in every human being, for his or her unique human-ness.  

 

It's ok to feel closer to one of your children, every parent probably does from time to time and phase to phase.  But you MUST break the comparison mind-set ASAP, or your younger boys will suffer.  They will feel it, it will show, and they will suffer for it.  

 

If your oldest boy is capable of understanding (that is, his autism is not severe enough), he needs to be taught that not everyone is interested in chickens.  Maybe little brother wants to be pushed in the swing, or wants him to draw a road map in chalk for his toy cars to roll on.  Teach him to relate to his little brothers in a language they understand, and to take pleasure in making them happy.  Trying to force his chickens and definitions on them is the wrong route, and he will need to be taught this skill of relation explicitly, in a way your younger boys won't.  His little brothers could grow up to be his best friends, as they will understand him (not necessarily his interests, but him as a person) in a way that the world does not.  Those two little "average" boys could be your older son's defenders and protectors in the future.  

 

I say this as an aunt to a severely autistic niece.  Her brothers and her sisters love her with such a fierce and protective love... it is breathtaking.  They cannot participate in "her world/reality", but Heaven protect anyone who does not treat her kindly!  

 

Let the guilt go.  When you deal with not-average (either high above or high below) you may see eventually that "average" is such a blessing in disguise.  

[sweetpea3829]

Honey...

 

Each of your precious babies is different.  They are who they are and there's not a whole heck of a lot that you can do, while pregnant, to influence that. 

 

Now....if you had written that you did crack and drank heavily while pregnant with your younger two....than yeah, that probably had an influence.  

 

But what you have is one 2E kiddo and two "regular" NT kiddos.  Each one has his/her own gifts and challenges.  None is better than another...or has more opportunities, etc.  

 

I did pretty much the same things during all four pregnancies...if anything I was most careful with my first.  My first has moderate to significant LDs with a recently tested IQ in the low 60s (though I believe the test was faulty and her score is an anomaly, given it was a 19 point drop from her previous score).  

 

The kid born 11 months after her is academically accelerated.  He is not profoundly gifted but he does very well and has a very sharp memory.  Similar to your son at 3, I can remember mine at 3 telling his pediatrician how the olfactory nerves worked...and the pediatrician looking at me and saying, "How does he know this?"  

 

Then there's the next DS who has a very complicated personality...is average intelligence...struggles a little here and there.  And finally, youngest DS who is slightly above average in math, slightly below in reading.  

 

 

So they are a wide spectrum of abilities and I've done pretty near the same thing for all of them.  Stop feeling guilty and just know that your pregnancies with them had very little impact on who they are.  

[luuknam]

I read a study from Canada which showed that one single severely stressful even in pregnancy could lower IQ by an average of 6 points (study done during massive Canadian snowstorm). So what did 9 mths of stress do?  I know cortisol kills brain cells.  And I know choline boosts memory (took it with W, didn't with R).  I'm trying to focus on future, but I just keep thinking about what might have been.  

 

I can't find the study about a massive snowstorm leading to lower IQ, but if it caused 9 months of stress, then I'd imagine there might be more going on than just stress - like maybe lack of access to healthy foods and prenatal care due to being snowed in. And there might be other issues with that study.

 

Aside from that, it's not exactly cumulative anyway. It's not like you can say "this, on average, causes a drop of 6 points in IQ, and that, on average, causes a drop of 2 points, and that, on average, a drop of 3 points, so that caused a drop of 11 points". And even if it did work that way, highly gifted (let's say, IQ of 150), minus 11 points, would still be well into the gifted range (139 in the example).

 

And, like others have said, a 3yo and a 1yo are too young to draw conclusions about. My oldest scored 75 on his verbal IQ test at age 4.2, and 105 on non-verbal. Both scores went up by 23-30 points by age 7.

Edited May 16, 2016 by luuknam

[sweetpea3829]

I didn't see the part about the Canadian study on stressful events during pregnancy.  But I would be highly suspect of such a study for many reasons...sample size, correlation vs causation, what was the control group?, etc etc.  It doesn't seem such a study would meet the requirements to be considered statistically "sound".

 

And then again..I look at my first two.  My first pregnancy (with my LD kiddo) was peaceful, quiet, amazing.  

 

My second pregnancy...we had to evict four different tenants, causing us to spiral into financial ruin, lost a home to foreclosure, filed a bankruptcy to stave off a lien on our primary multifamily (and residence), I lost my job, stress in the marriage because of all of what was going on...and etc.  

 

And yet, that's the one of my four that is accelerated.  

 

So no...I wouldn't put any stock in a limited study on a group of babies that were in utero during a snow storm.  If chronic stress DID cause a substantial IQ decrease in a fetus, I imagine there would be many many more children with lower IQs than there are. 

[maize]

If chronic stress DID cause a substantial IQ decrease in a fetus, I imagine there would be many many more children with lower IQs than there are.

Well now, IQ is calculated according to averages, right? Maybe there are a ton of babies being affected by chronic stress and without the stress the average IQ score (100) would sit at a higher performance point.

 

In general I agree with you though :)

[sweetpea3829]

Well now, IQ is calculated according to averages, right? Maybe there are a ton of babies being affected by chronic stress and without the stress the average IQ score (100) would sit at a higher performance point.

 

In general I agree with you though :)

 

A valid point!  We would have to look at the average stress level of people as reported over a number of generations, verify that the recent two generations of child-bearing women have experienced higher levels of stress, overall, than their predecessors, and then we'd have to check and see if there were a correlating decrease in average IQ of the human population.  

 

And even then, we'd not have a definitive answer because there are plenty of other variables to consider.  Plus...as I mentioned before, the IQ test isn't necessarily a reliable measurement tool.  My daughter had a 19 point drop between 2012 and this year.  Primarily because the test was changed, a new section was added (which tested her in areas that she was not tested in previously and those areas happen to be her weakest points), plus, she was completely distracted at the test site!  

 

Just goes to show...you can't put a lot of stock in the testing.  Or even the studies.  At the end of the day, we all just need to do the best that we can.  And know that our kids are who they are!  And love them!

[SKL]

As far as stress goes, I'm going to guess that my gifted kid's birth mom was under stress the whole 9 months also.  Fear, rejection, poverty, and so much more.  You would think that all adopted / disrupted kids would suffer from that kind of stress, but I know many who have gifted IQs.  And many who don't.  I have to admit it's been somewhat fascinating to me, as I wonder whether some kinds of stressors actually make people smarter.  But even if so, it depends on the individual.  I know lots of kids with similar backgrounds who struggle.  Just a little aside there.  :P

[Incognito]

I believe it is unintentional, but when you equate your behaviours to such outcomes on your children (or anyone) you are making yourself more important that you are.  Yes, what we do is important, but really, we are not as powerful as we sometimes think we are.

 

This is spoken by someone who likes to ruminate on reasons for everything ad nauseum.  I get where you are coming from.  But I've found that I need to realize how very tiny I really am in the universe and how while I want to do the best I can in the circumstances I have, I am not in charge of how everyone around me turns out.  And my power to truly influence these things is actually minuscule.  I still believe that with the faith of a mustard seed, I can move a mountain... but I realize that I really am only working on the mustard seed level and that's okay. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I really don't think we have that kind of control.  I believe it is mostly genetic.  Lots of babies are born in less than ideal circumstances and do fine. Some are born in great circumstances and don't do fine. You really only have so much control over things.

 

And it's so typical that we bend over backwards with our first and then it just gets harder and harder to be perfect with the second (and so on). 

[eternalsummer]

I can't find the study about a massive snowstorm leading to lower IQ, but if it caused 9 months of stress, then I'd imagine there might be more going on than just stress - like maybe lack of access to healthy foods and prenatal care due to being snowed in. And there might be other issues with that study.

 

Aside from that, it's not exactly cumulative anyway. It's not like you can say "this, on average, causes a drop of 6 points in IQ, and that, on average, causes a drop of 2 points, and that, on average, a drop of 3 points, so that caused a drop of 11 points". And even if it did work that way, highly gifted (let's say, IQ of 150), minus 11 points, would still be well into the gifted range (139 in the example).

 

And, like others have said, a 3yo and a 1yo are too young to draw conclusions about. My oldest scored 75 on his verbal IQ test at age 4.2, and 105 on non-verbal. Both scores went up by 23-30 points by age 7.

 

I had a truly stupid pysch professor in college who told us that every drink when you are pregnant (like, one margarita or whatever) causes a 5 point drop in IQ.  I remember thinking at the time that If you drank one beer a day for say 50 days (which my mom claims to have done with me -a beer in the evening) your destined=to-be-average-kid would have an IQ of 0.  One more day would be negative!

 

It was a stupid statement.

 

Intelligence is a good thing, OP.  The main difference between us and the apes, the real point of that evolutionary diversion, is our greater intelligence.  So I can see the draw to want your kids to be as bright as possible.

 

However, the people with the most pure intelligence (the greatest processing power, memory capacity, whatever) are not always those who have the most positive benefit on society or the easiest life for themselves.  Wisdom requires some intelligence but it is not a matter of pure IQ, and I think it is wisdom that benefits both society and the individual the most.  Even then, the world has an important and good place in it for people (like me) who are not all that wise.  If every person were an independent critical thinker society would go right to hell imo.

[maize]

Social intelligence and emotional intelligence may well be more beneficial than a high IQ. If I had the ability to choose for my kids, I would give them lots of those.

 

As is, I take the kids I have and do my best to help them develop their innate strengths and compensate for any innate weaknesses.