"Mother's Day is for all women"

[Spryte]

I don't have strong feelings about this, but I will say that I try to remember that not everyone who has had a baby has a child to celebrate with on Mother's Day.  If you knew a woman had lost a child, you would be considerate of that on Mother's Day.  But chances are, some people you know have lost a child and you aren't aware of it.  Or they might be working on becoming a mom, and you might not know that either.

 

I agree with just letting everyone celebrate however they feel right celebrating.  How does it matter to me?

 

My dad and sister recognized me on Mother's Day 2007, when I was in the adoption process but had neither legal nor physical custody of my kids.  I was so touched.  I hope nobody else was offended by my family's kind gestures.

 

That is so sweet that your dad and sister recognized you on the Mother's Day when you were working toward adoption.   :wub:  They are keepers.  

 

I try to remember the bolded.  We just can't know, even sometimes when we know someone.  Some grief is private.

 

I think of my kids' birthmothers on Mother's Day, and since our adoptions are open we can send cards and flowers, and make phone calls.  We used to do it on "Birthmother's Day" but honestly - it feels better to all of us (me included) when we just call a spade a spade and do it on Mother's Day.  They are moms, too, they just do a different type of mothering, and so are all the birthmoms who chose adoption, or (heartbreakingly) felt that they had to choose it.  

 

For years, I was the custodial stepmom on Mother's Day, too.  I'd make a huge effort to help the kiddo do something special for his mom.  DH would always recognize my efforts, but it was bittersweet.  

[ErinE]

It isn't the automatic response for all people. 

 

There's a name for this actually. It's called speciesism. 

 

Why do you think homo sapiens sapiens is more important than other species? It's actually very difficult question, in my opinion. 

 

 

 

Yes, I do think that in the scenario I described a child is more important than a pet. I've never seen anyone argue they'd sacrifice a human child, even a strange one, for a pet, but if that's the case, I'd be interested in the reasons.

 

Again, I am not defining anyone's love for a domesticated animal. But if a pet attacks a child, euthanasia is part of the discussion and actually required in some jurisdictions. I have no problem with that. 

 

Human encroachment on land and decimation of species is a completely different discussion.

[Murphy101]

Why are there Mothers and Fathers in religious orders?

 

 

just musing out loud. How come Mother Superior is ok but being a pet parent isn't?

Because they are in a parental role over other humans.

 

And I can't think of any other creature capable of the entirety of what humans are, so I have zero qualms putting humans above other species. What with having dominion and all that. The conquered sets the rules. For now, that's humans. Maybe someday it will be apes. But not anytime soon.

[6packofun]

It isn't the automatic response for all people. 

 

There's a name for this actually. It's called speciesism. 

 

Why do you think homo sapiens sapiens is more important than other species? It's actually very difficult question, in my opinion. 

 

 

 

So you could see a scenario in which one would only be able to save the life of a dog or a human that choosing either one over the other is morally equivalent?

 

(I call my dog my baby, but he isn't the equivalent of my children and he wouldn't be if I had no children; the fact that in a fire I would obviously try desperately to save him if I also have children or not says nothing about whether my love for him makes me his MOTHER to be celebrated on Mother's Day.  lol)

 

Speciesism is only for the purpose of denying that human beings have any innate value because that value would have to be explained and it can't be in materialistic/naturalistic terms, thus it's merely one kind of argument against God.  Let's be honest.  LOL  But human beings don't act that way in reality no matter how they try to suppress that knowledge so it seems silly to argue over the value/importance of amoral creatures compared to moral ones.  (Of course, you can go ahead anyway. lol)

[zoobie]

Toxic masculinity affects men as well as women. 

 

There are very many nurturing males but they struggle with having those qualities recognized or appreciated.  Provider / protector are tightly scripted roles. 

 

I don't think it's toxic to think of having a pet differently than fathering and raising a child. 

 

As a very responsible and loving pet owner, I believe there are vast and tangible differences in the level of care required for an animal vs a human child. 

[Bluegoat]

I wouldn't say that for me it is precisly a matter of prefering humans over animals.  It's more a matter of understanding each according to his or her nature.

 

For example, cruelty to animals is deeply wrong because animals are capable of feeling pain, that is part of their nature, and it is part of our nature to see that and if we are ignoring it for the sake of some kind of satisfaction or ego, that is a contradiction.  We are getting pleasure out of giving pain, which ought to be against what our rationality allows..  And yet, if a lion eats an antelope while it is still alive, it is not cruel - it still stinks for the antelope but the nature of the lion is different than that of a human being.  There is no internal contradiction.

 

As far as fur babies - mostly it is harmless, but I think it can go in bad directions at times.  In particular I think it can be bad for pets to be anthropomorphized inappropriately.  It's a fine line in a way though, because in a human-animal relationship there is something that each brings to the other that they would not have alone.  I suppose I feel that if we go too far thinking of animals as people, that can get lost.

[SKL]

My sister has many dogs and no kids.  (Never been married, never tried for kids.)  Her dogs are pretty much her life, but she has said point blank that a dog is below a human and it bugs her to hear people equate them.

 

Yesterday she celebrated Mother's Day for my mom, my sister-in-law, and me.  There was no thought of her being entitled to a mother's day card too.

 

I dunno, I could see people getting a bit offended if they were told they could consider themselves moms of their pets since they failed in their attempts to have human babies.  Let's see I know someone who had a miscarriage, then a hysterectomy, and now focuses her affections on her dog.  I'm thinking a Mother's Day card wouldn't be well-received by her.  :/

[8circles]

I'm confused about how anyone knows whether or not anyone has been a nurturing mother-type figure in anyone else's life?  I think there are probably very few women who haven't been in any way nurturing or mothering or maternally supportive of anyone else ever.  I mean, how do you *know* this?  Why would you assume that because someone isn't a biological or adoptive actual mother that they haven't fulfilled that role for anyone?  

 

Thank God for all the wonderful women who have been this for me.  None of them are my actual mom.  Some of them have never had children of their own.  They should be honored on Mother's Day.

[SKL]

I'm confused about how anyone knows whether or not anyone has been a nurturing mother-type figure in anyone else's life?  I think there are probably very few women who haven't been in any way nurturing or mothering or maternally supportive of anyone else ever.  I mean, how do you *know* this?  Why would you assume that because someone isn't a biological or adoptive actual mother that they haven't fulfilled that role for anyone?  

 

Thank God for all the wonderful women who have been this for me.  None of them are my actual mom.  Some of them have never had children of their own.  They should be honored on Mother's Day.

 

If you want to honor them on Mother's Day, then certainly do so.

 

I think people should honor the people who have mothered them.  Nobody outside of those relationships needs to care about this honoring that is going on.

 

I think the push back is on the idea that all of us should honor all women because they have probably done something to deserve it at some point.  The idea that it's all or nothing, that you can't celebrate it unless you include everyone.  I mean, when we have a birthday celebration, do we have to include every person who was born on that day?

 

Like I said earlier, to me, Mother's Day is about my mom.  To you, it's about your selected people.  To my next-door neighbor, it's about whoever they want to honor.  No problem.

 

I don't go around wishing people Happy Mother's Day unless they are my close family.  It feels weird to me.

 

Maybe I'm the weird one.

[LucyStoner]

I'm confused about how anyone knows whether or not anyone has been a nurturing mother-type figure in anyone else's life? I think there are probably very few women who haven't been in any way nurturing or mothering or maternally supportive of anyone else ever. I mean, how do you *know* this? Why would you assume that because someone isn't a biological or adoptive actual mother that they haven't fulfilled that role for anyone?

 

Thank God for all the wonderful women who have been this for me. None of them are my actual mom. Some of them have never had children of their own. They should be honored on Mother's Day.

I think that is reasonable.

 

Just because I don't like the mothers day is for all women thing, doesn't mean I don't recognize the myriads of ways that women may be mothers without every having given birth or formally adopted a child. My mother's much younget sister always sent my mother mother's day cards because to my aunt, my mom was her mother. She didn't give birth to her but my mom, from the time she was just 14 herself, cared for her from infant hood.

 

For me it's that women =/= mother. You certainly personally know that there are mothers in name only- women with children they never took care of. There are also women who choose not to be mothers and aren't the least bit sad about that fact which is great for them but they don't need to or want to be identified as moms.

 

My not-grandmother finally kicked the bucket this spring. I do not mourn her nor do I consider her to have been my mother's mom or my grandmother. She was nastiness personified. The world is literally safer without her in it. She was a woman. Mother's day was NOT for her.

 

So by all means, we can and should celebrate the women who are moms regardless of if they are biologically or legally mothers but let's also acknowledge that to be a woman is not to be a mother.

Edited May 9, 2016 by LucyStoner

[heartlikealion]

I don't have a problem with the term "furr baby" etc. It's just that I don't think Mother's Day is about that. I have an aunt that never had children but has had cats for many, many years and I don't care if she thinks of them as her children or not because heck, even I do (in a sense). But I don't think she would go around wishing all her friends with pets only "Happy Mother's Day" or expect a phone call from someone wishing her one. Yes, there are similarities in raising a pet and a child, but I could leave my house with my pet alone. I am not going to leave my children home alone (at their ages).

 

As for the saving an animal/saving a pet thing. Well, no one was asking "is your pet's life more important to you than some relatives you don't particularly like?" lol. It was more like, "if your pet and your child were in danger, who would you save first?"

Edited May 9, 2016 by heartlikealion

[hornblower]

speaking of "who would you save" thought experiments....

Last year in China, the final exam for those who will practice law asked - if you could only save one from a burning building, would you save your mother or your girlfriend? 

Setting aside the several layers of sexism inherent in the question, it's the type of thing that highlights how much culture colors these attitudes. Apparently, there IS one right answer, according to the test givers. 

Wouldn't that be a fun test to discuss at Mother's Day dinner - with spouses & mothers present :p 


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-34377611

[heartlikealion]

speaking of "who would you save" thought experiments....

 

Last year in China, the final exam for those who will practice law asked - if you could only save one from a burning building, would you save your mother or your girlfriend? 

 

Setting aside the several layers of sexism inherent in the question, it's the type of thing that highlights how much culture colors these attitudes. Apparently, there IS one right answer, according to the test givers. 

 

Wouldn't that be a fun test to discuss at Mother's Day dinner - with spouses & mothers present :p 

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-34377611

 

Without even looking at the results, I can say that this question probably leaves a lot of hesitation for people. Whereas the pet vs child leaves less hesitation for many people.

 

[MSNative]

My own mum lost her mum when she was 10, so I understand the sorrow that can be present around MD. However, in our family, we celebrate - and we celebrate those of us in the family who are mothers to children ( by whatever means...birth, adoption, fostering etc)

 

It's not much to ask - one day in the year to say to our mothers - hey, thanks Mum!

 

My FB feed this year was full of posts about how insensitive MD is. I have no idea how a private family celebration could be insensitive. I did think of the moms in my life who would struggle. For example, I called my friend who is estranged from her son to tell her that she is a good mom, despite how things feel right now.

But I was mildly annoyed to find a zillion exhortations to think of everyone else. Nope, thinking of my mum. Enjoying a family day together.

 

The fur baby thing - yeah, no. If you are not a mom, but you have many pets who are precious to you, I will honor the care and love you give those pets but I won't be wishing you Happy Mother's Day unless you also have mothered actual human children.

 

I do understand the barrage of commercialism can be distressing. We avoid that aspect of the day.

You are a thoughtful friend. I have a friend in a similar situation and did message her but now think I should have called her. Off to remedy that.

[8circles]

I think that is reasonable.

 

Just because I don't like the mothers day is for all women thing, doesn't mean I don't recognize the myriads of ways that women may be mothers without every having given birth or formally adopted a child. My mother's much younget sister always sent my mother mother's day cards because to my aunt, my mom was her mother. She didn't give birth to her but my mom, from the time she was just 14 herself, cared for her from infant hood.

 

For me it's that women =/= mother. You certainly personally know that there are mothers in name only- women with children they never took care of. There are also women who choose not to be mothers and aren't the least bit sad about that fact which is great for them but they don't need to or want to be identified as moms.

 

My not-grandmother finally kicked the bucket this spring. I do not mourn her nor do I consider her to have been my mother's mom or my grandmother. She was nastiness personified. The world is literally safer without her in it. She was a woman. Mother's day was NOT for her.

 

So by all means, we can and should celebrate the women who are moms regardless of if they are biologically or legally mothers but let's also acknowledge that to be a woman is not to be a mother.

 

I totally agree with you.  All of it but especially that woman =/= mother.  I've never encountered that sentiment.  Not even on FB.  

 

I guess I think to be a mother requires some sort of action - it's a verb, not just a noun.  And as such, MD *could be* for any woman.  I could be misinterpreting, but I hear the opposite of that in some of the posts. 

[Guest]

I'm so grateful our pastor just said, in the two weeks before Mother's Day, "Hey guys, it's coming up next Sunday so don't forget any planning you have to do. You're welcome".

 

No special prayers, service, sermonizing, or flowers. Fine by me!

[heartlikealion]

I totally agree with you.  All of it but especially that woman =/= mother.  I've never encountered that sentiment.  Not even on FB.  

 

I guess I think to be a mother requires some sort of action - it's a verb, not just a noun.  And as such, MD *could be* for any woman.  I could be misinterpreting, but I hear the opposite of that in some of the posts. 

 

I do believe many women should be celebrated that day. I tend to think of it as mothering to a human is all. I don't know if that's right or wrong, just the way I tend to associate it. I don't care if someone literally was a mom. They could have been a grandparent that raised their grandchild as their own, etc.

 

(ok obviously a grandparent is a parent in the literal sense as well but I meant in regards to the grandchild)

Edited May 10, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Katy]

 

 

QUOTE [Why can't she be one who writes about the idea of mothering?]

 

 

I was raised by a mother that worships at the altar of Gloria Steinem, but I'm comfortable answering that.  GS directly contradicted the trap of motherhood with most of her work, she avoided all semblance of nuclear families until later in life, when she disavowed her own earlier comments on not needing a man by getting married.  Someone who spent her life understanding the value and virtue of mothering should get to define it, rather than someone whose whole life's work was the antithesis of those values.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer
Removed most of quote from deleted content.

[Professormom]

I was once asked, "Do you feel guilty on Mother's Day?" When I asked why, the person replied, "Well, don't you think your kids' real mothers feel sad?"

 

Ok, first of all, who in the world thinks this is an appropriate question? Second, this person knew nothing about my kids' circumstances. And lastly, WTF? Really?

:svengo: I am so sorry.

[Joker]

I actually did see one that bothered me today while catching up on Facebook. It was a mom who put out a Happy Mother's Day message to her daughter. Her daughter is newly married with no children. The post was about how she is not just a teacher, but also a mother to her students. It did irk me a bit.

 

FTR, my sister is single, in her 40s, and has taught K for around 20 years. She doesn't think of herself as their mother. She does feel protective, especially in regards to training for school shootings. But, she doesn't think it in any way makes her a mom. 

[gardenmom5]

I actually did see one that bothered me today while catching up on Facebook. It was a mom who put out a Happy Mother's Day message to her daughter. Her daughter is newly married with no children. The post was about how she is not just a teacher, but also a mother to her students. It did irk me a bit.

 

FTR, my sister is single, in her 40s, and has taught K for around 20 years. She doesn't think of herself as their mother. She does feel protective, especially in regards to training for school shootings. But, she doesn't think it in any way makes her a mom. 

 

as the daughter in that postion - I'd be telling  mom - I'm not giving you grandchildren in the next year.   I had people wishing me 'happy mother's day' right after I got married - uh, I'm not a mother.  it made me uncomfortable and feeling pressured.  they also 'took offense' because *I* didn't want to be wished "happy mother's day" when I wasn't a mother.

 

  tbh: I don't think I'd care how the mom meant it,  it feels too much like "give me grandchildren".  

[Ellie]

I keep seeing this sentiment and it kind of bugs me. I don't care for MD at all and we do very little but I have no problem with setting aside a day just to honor the women who do the tough work of raising kids. Am I just being an old fart??

 

No, you aren't. It's *Mother's* Day, usually your own mother/grandmother/mil. Not your friends who are also mothers, or your pastor's wife who is a mother, or your bff who is like a mother to your dc...

[Bluegoat]

Why can't she be one who writes about the idea of mothering? I

I don't mind if Gloria Steinem wants to say something about mother's day.

 

I'm not sure why you posted that as an example of the "real" meaning of mother's day.  It seems like she has a common but perhaps not universal view, one that has already been expressed by several people in the discussion.

 

What makes her understanding definitive?  Why should we believe that is the real meaning as opposed to something else?

 

 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Susan Wise Bauer
Removed deleted content

[Haiku]

The post was about how she is not just a teacher, but also a mother to her students.

That doesn't surprise me a bit. When my oldest was in school, there was a constant theme of the school trying to take a parental role in students' lives, both overtly and subtly.

[Ausmumof3]

speaking of "who would you save" thought experiments....

 

Last year in China, the final exam for those who will practice law asked - if you could only save one from a burning building, would you save your mother or your girlfriend?

 

Setting aside the several layers of sexism inherent in the question, it's the type of thing that highlights how much culture colors these attitudes. Apparently, there IS one right answer, according to the test givers.

 

Wouldn't that be a fun test to discuss at Mother's Day dinner - with spouses & mothers present :p

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-china-blog-34377611

Without checking the answer I suspect in Chinese culture you would be expected to save your mother as the culture places such a high emphasis on duty to parents and elders.