Tired of dealing with this kid

[razorbackmama]

Re: earning the credits, I guess my thought is, if you make it 100% classwork and just have him sit there with the timer, how could he not get the credits? Like "As the principal of this homeschool school, I'm not okay with a drop-out. I'm putting you in the basic all-in-class track. It goes like this. 40 minutes per subject per day, and you have summer school. You will sit down and receive your assignment. You will have exactly 30 minutes to complete it. What is done at 30 minutes, you will be graded on. [Or 50 minutes, whatever.] The average of those will be 50% of your grade and tests are 50%. If you fail, I will not graduate you and you will have to either petition to get into the local high school, or get a GED but that nixes the military. This is non-negotiable. I will see you tomorrow at 9 a.m. sharp. If you miss class, it is a zero for the day."

 

Then push through. Churn it out. Chip away. Today is 30 minutes of video, 10 minute written summary. Tomorrow is 20 minutes reading and 20 minutes of questions. End of the period and DING! Collect paper. Next task. DING!

 

Six courses for the school year next year, six over the summer starting right this minute.

 

This might sound harsh but honestly? It's not. Six hours of classwork with no homework for a high schooler is NOT HARSH. That is not mean. At. All. My seven year old does it. You've given him the homeschool dream, now he has to crack down because he didn't take advantage of the self-learning option. Too bad for him I guess.

 

I COMPLETELY agree with this. However, I myself cannot do it. Not that I cannot have him do it...I physically do not have the capability of enforcing this sort of thing long-term (and long-term is what it will take). If I could I would have done it loooooooooooong ago. I'm only one person though with a husband who is rarely around. I know it sounds like a total excuse for me to say I can't do this. But I literally CANNOT do this. Maybe if he were my only one? And next year I'll have 7 kids in school rather than "just" 6 like right now.

 

Whoa.

 

It's things like that that terrify me about going to a psychologist. I mean you can tell me it's not "average" or "normal" but tell me to treat it and I go all mama-bear.

 

My daughter spent her entire speech evaluation on her head and nobody commented, thankfully. She also hid things on purpose when the evaluator would ask her where they are. But you could see the twinkle in her eye.

 

 

When my MIL (who is a Montessori teacher) sees boys playing physics experiments with little people she gives them more silos, more things to drop. That to me is the answer to the Little People Silo. Many kids, often boys, just aren't that interested in "oh wow Mr. Cow look a pile of hay" "Cool Mr. Farmer let's all go in the car" "Yay!" It's all about the motion of objects. That is a GOOD thing. Who the heck is going to build the rocket to Mars, the people who spend all day with the dollies making small talk? No. It is the children who make rockets out of Little People. Also who will fly the planes, the children who feel satisfied at a desk, or the children whose main goal in life is to fly? 

 

I am probably a pretty extreme neurodiversity advocate so take this with a grain of salt, but I think that your son sounds like a very typical kid whose brain is probably in overload during the teen years, who could focus for short bursts of time and who needs more structure.

 

I understand that the "top" 25% of high school students, in large part girls (edit: not that I think boys can't do it but if you look at college acceptance rates and success rates, it is terrible for boys), are able to just sit down and follow instructions and create their own projects for 6 hours straight, in a house, on paper.

 

I do not, however, view that as optimal development for everyone. So I don't view that as a problem. That's just how it is.

 

DO NOT GET ME STARTED. I truly believe this is one (not THE) reason there is such a huge increase in spectrum/ADHD diagnoses...they are calling normal behavior abnormal. There is a "box" of behaviors, and anything outside that box gets a diagnosis. And the box is steadily shrinking. I could go on a major rant, but I won't.

 

So yes, finding a QUALITY professional who can see past all the crap is hard. (I know I cannot find them at Children's Hospital of Colorado...that's for sure....)

Or maybe something else, but I don't think that because traditional homeschooling progressions aren't working, means he has a psychological disorder.

 

I agree. I really don't think he needs medication.

[Tsuga]

I agree 100% with this Tsuga. I never said anyone needs to be medicated. I do maintain, though, that no one was ever HELPED by their mother insisting they are just a lazy person.

 

 

I also think that just time and slogging through is the cure for a great many things.

 

It did not sound to me like anyone was saying that... she's saying that when she read the verses about the sluggard her mind went to her kid.

 

Kind of like when I read those verses my mind goes to myself, LOL.

[Tsuga]

 

 

I COMPLETELY agree with this. However, I myself cannot do it. Not that I cannot have him do it...I physically do not have the capability of enforcing this sort of thing long-term (and long-term is what it will take). If I could I would have done it loooooooooooong ago. I'm only one person though with a husband who is rarely around. I know it sounds like a total excuse for me to say I can't do this. But I literally CANNOT do this. Maybe if he were my only one? And next year I'll have 7 kids in school rather than "just" 6 like right now.

 

Aha, I get it.

 

Okay.

 

Well. Can you hire a tutor to enforce it, you do the curriculum, assignments, hire a tutor to enforce and organize for him and for some other courses? Might be worth it in the long run. "Accountability partner." Another experienced adult? 

[razorbackmama]

It did not sound to me like anyone was saying that... she's saying that when she read the verses about the sluggard her mind went to her kid.

 

YES. THIS.

[Ravin]

He has kind of talked with a recruiter. Nothing in depth, but it's definitely more than just "I want to join the Navy." I think he has talked with him as much as he can prior to his senior year and REALLY getting the ball rolling on the DEP and such.

 

EXCELLENT POINTS about integrity and honesty being what is crucial. I'm going to mention that to him. It is nothing for him to lie straight to your face about even the small stuff like whether he did his spelling that day or not. He needs to ponder this.

 

 

 

Have you considered that the lying could be a direct result of being told he's lazy, etc. when he doesn't get things done on the timetable you expect?  Even if you don't say it explicitly or on a regular basis, it may come across in your attitude. (Lord knows I have a VERY hard time at times controlling my own attitude when dealing with my DD's bad attitude!)

Edited May 3, 2016 by Ravin

[razorbackmama]

Aha, I get it.

 

Okay.

 

Well. Can you hire a tutor to enforce it, you do the curriculum, assignments, hire a tutor to enforce and organize for him and for some other courses? Might be worth it in the long run. "Accountability partner." Another experienced adult? 

 

I'll have to ponder. Without going into detail, our lives are extremely chaotic, so I'm not sure I could get things together enough for a tutor. And we really can't afford one. But maybe. I dunno. I'm literally in tears thinking about enforcing something like that even through a tutor because I KNOW I will fail.

 

One thing I have been considering for him and his 14yo brother (who is on this path too but has dyslexia and dysgraphia thrown in for extra struggles....) is to make them come to me after each and every assignment and then me having to give them the next one, rather than giving them a list of things to accomplish. This way I can make sure that they actually did it (not grading it right then). Maybe I can set a timer each time (??????) so that if it gets to be a little too long between check-ins, I can follow up.

 

Since I have nothing else to do all day. :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:

[razorbackmama]

Have you considered that the lying could be a direct result of being told he's lazy, etc. when he doesn't get things done on the timetable you expect?  

 

I am not telling him that he's lazy, etc. when he doesn't get things done on the timetable I expect.

 

He lies about LOTS of things in his life. He does not lie just about school.

[razorbackmama]

I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I sit around telling him how lazy he is.

 

It is possible for me to THINK he is lazy and to guide him as though I think that without actually TELLING him that he's lazy.

[hornblower]

 

 

Since I have nothing else to do all day. :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:

 

I just read your sig line. Whoa.... 

 

I like your idea of timers etc. I think maybe having your olders working just a bit apart but checking in with you every 30 min to let you know how things are going is a plan worth trying. My ds runs a timer app on his phone & uses the pomodoro method. Maybe something like that would help all of you guys. Work hard & focused & fast for an interval, then take a break, stretch, grab water, go to the bathroom, run around the house etc, and then start the next work interval. 

[hornblower]

I'm not sure where I gave the impression that I sit around telling him how lazy he is.

 

fwiw, I don't think you did. 

 

I mentioned the words in my first post it because imo it's a common self judgement that some kids apply to *themselves*, without any input from us.  So they're often being really hard on themselves and just beating themselves up without any skill to actually overcome the problem...

[razorbackmama]

I just read your sig line. Whoa.... 

 

I like your idea of timers etc. I think maybe having your olders working just a bit apart but checking in with you every 30 min to let you know how things are going is a plan worth trying. My ds runs a timer app on his phone & uses the pomodoro method. Maybe something like that would help all of you guys. Work hard & focused & fast for an interval, then take a break, stretch, grab water, go to the bathroom, run around the house etc, and then start the next work interval. 

 

I actually tried that with them. Not necessarily with strict times, but with activities. I purposefully put together their assignment sheets so that a high energy subject (like math) is followed by a less energy subject (like spelling). I vary long/short too. I also included exercise and their daily chores, to break it up and to force them to get up and move around.

 

The only one who will do this is my 11yo (because she is VERY into procedures and must do everything in order LOL). I have explained and explained and explained why I did it this way...FOR THEM...and they just will not. I gave up.

 

I'm not sure how I'd do it with everyone on the same time intervals, since they all have such different needs.

[razorbackmama]

fwiw, I don't think you did. 

 

I mentioned the words in my first post it because imo it's a common self judgement that some kids apply to *themselves*, without any input from us.  So they're often being really hard on themselves and just beating themselves up without any skill to actually overcome the problem...

 

Thank you. I wasn't referring to your post. But I do appreciate your comment.

 

I don't know that my son applies that label to himself (if anything he seems to think he's all hunky-dory), but I know for sure that my friend's son with ADD does. He really beats himself up, poor kid. His medication has helped so much with his confidence.

[MinivanMom]

Coming from a totally different perspective here. Take it or leave it.

 

Am I understanding correctly that he turns 18 this summer, but is only a junior? I don't know whether you red-shirted him or held him back, but if he's about to be a legal adult then I think it's a very different situation. The time for exploring possible diagnosis, teaching work habits, or holding his hand all day is past. As in . . . long gone. It's a hard thing to ask any legal adult to still be slogging through school with mom, but it is probably an impossible feat with a kid who already struggles with motivation and work ethic. My goal would be to get him to graduation immediately.

 

First off, I would declare this school year over and give him the grades he deserves based on the amount of work he's completed. If he deserves all D's, then so be it. Just declare those classes finished and done. Then, assuming that the GED route is out due to his desire to join the Navy, I think you have 2 options:

 

1. If he was 14 for his entire 8th grade year and completed Algebra that year, then I would go ahead and label 8th grade as 9th grade. Bam. He has completed 4 years of high school, and he can graduate immediately.

 

2. If he only took Pre-Algebra in 8th grade or you just don't feel you can justify calling it high school, I would aim for a December graduation. Assuming that he has taken at least 6 credits per year and assuming that he took the core academic classes each year (English, math, social studies, science), then he really only needs 4 credits of English and math to graduate; 3 credits of social studies and science are fine. You can declare the fall semester a "block schedule" where he takes English 4, Consumer Math, and 2 electives. Those 2 electives can be "Work Experience" (give him credit for the job) and "Physical Conditioning" (because he wants to get ready for Basic Training, right?). He'll be done with those classes in December and can go ahead and graduate.

 

But give both him (and yourself) an official end date, so that you both know that this isn't going to slog on and on forever. 

[Ravin]

I am not telling him that he's lazy, etc. when he doesn't get things done on the timetable I expect.

 

He lies about LOTS of things in his life. He does not lie just about school.

 

I edited my comment above.

 

Kids pick up on things from us even when we don't say them outright.

[razorbackmama]

Coming from a totally different perspective here. Take it or leave it.

 

Am I understanding correctly that he turns 18 this summer, but is only a junior? I don't know whether you red-shirted him or held him back, but if he's about to be a legal adult then I think it's a very different situation. The time for exploring possible diagnosis, teaching work habits, or holding his hand all day is past. As in . . . long gone. It's a hard thing to ask any legal adult to still be slogging through school with mom, but it is probably an impossible feat with a kid who already struggles with motivation and work ethic. My goal would be to get him to graduation immediately.

 

First off, I would declare this school year over and give him the grades he deserves based on the amount of work he's completed. If he deserves all D's, then so be it. Just declare those classes finished and done. Then, assuming that the GED route is out due to his desire to join the Navy, I think you have 2 options:

 

1. If he was 14 for his entire 8th grade year and completed Algebra that year, then I would go ahead and label 8th grade as 9th grade. Bam. He has completed 4 years of high school, and he can graduate immediately.

 

2. If he only took Pre-Algebra in 8th grade or you just don't feel you can justify calling it high school, I would aim for a December graduation. Assuming that he has taken at least 6 credits per year and assuming that he took the core academic classes each year (English, math, social studies, science), then he really only needs 4 credits of English and math to graduate; 3 credits of social studies and science are fine. You can declare the fall semester a "block schedule" where he takes English 4, Consumer Math, and 2 electives. Those 2 electives can be "Work Experience" (give him credit for the job) and "Physical Conditioning" (because he wants to get ready for Basic Training, right?). He'll be done with those classes in December and can go ahead and graduate.

 

But give both him (and yourself) an official end date, so that you both know that this isn't going to slog on and on forever. 

 

He has a late August birthday, is a boy, and was INCREDIBLY immature the year he turned 5. There was no way he was ready to start kindergarten that fall. So he started kindergarten the year he turned 6. He has followed on from there.

 

Credits he currently has:

English 1 & 2

Algebra 1

Ancient History

Spanish 1 & 2

Old Testament Studies

Health (1/2)

Theater (3/4)

for a total of 8.25 credits completed so far

 

He currently is TAKING:

English 3

Geometry

Integrated Physics & Chemistry (about to finish this week)

World History (1/2)

American History (1/2)

Christian Worldview

for a total of 5 credits

 

If he goes at double speed (which he SAYS he will...we'll see) he should be able to complete the following by the end of May next year:

English 4

Algebra 2

Biology

Physics

World History (1/2)

American History (1/2)

Government (1/2)

another Bible course

Personal Finance (1/2)

Film Directing & Producing (1/2)

Russian 1

Theater (1/4)

for a total of 9.25 credits (spread over this summer and all of next year)

 

That makes a total of:

4 English

3 math

3 science

3.5 social studies

1 fine arts

2 foreign language

5.5 electives

_________

22 total credits

 

We have a target date for graduation June 2, 2017.

 

Edited May 3, 2016 by razorbackmama

[razorbackmama]

I edited my comment above.

 

Kids pick up on things from us even when we don't say them outright.

 

I agree, but that is not the reason for his lying. As I said, he lies about lots of things unrelated to school.

[razorbackmama]

That looks very doable. Does he want to do the Russian? He actually already has two FL, yes? 

 

Yes, he wanted to take the Russian. He's very into languages. It will count as an elective.

 

Some of those planned courses could be pretty light and still count. 

 

I'd stay away from consumer math as most schools won't count it. Make sure it's not instead of Alg I, Geom, Alg II sequence. 

 

He is not taking consumer math. He is taking the Dave Ramsey personal finance course. It is counting as an elective, not as a math.

 

He'll have a FA credit. Does he need the film class or just want it? 

 

He just wants it. :001_smile:

 

[freesia]

Does your state have grad requirements for homeschoolers?

 

In some states you wouldn't need so much social studies and physical science counts for high school so you would just need biology.

 

Does he need personal finance to graduate ? Also, you have 3 foreign language credits, not 2. Could you drop Russian?

I guess what I'm saying is that I know it wouldn't be your ideal by any means to cut, but neither is dropping out. Perhaps culling to the least amount of credits required would be enough for a child who is headed straight to the military.

[razorbackmama]

And he will actually still be 18 when he graduates (provided he can pull it off). :001_smile:  My 14yo will be 19 though.

Edited May 4, 2016 by razorbackmama

[MinivanMom]

Does your state have grad requirements for homeschoolers?

 

In some states you wouldn't need so much social studies and physical science counts for high school so you would just need biology.

 

Does he need personal finance to graduate ? Also, you have 3 foreign language credits, not 2. Could you drop Russian?

I guess what I'm saying is that I know it wouldn't be your ideal by any means to cut, but neither is dropping out. Perhaps culling to the least amount of credits required would be enough for a child who is headed straight to the military.

 

This.

 

I think we all have this ideal image of what we want homeschooling to look like and what we'd like our children to accomplish, but at the end of the day we have to educate the real child in front of us. In a situation like this, I think meeting the minimum requirements to graduate is better than dropping out or getting a GED.

[razorbackmama]

Does your state have grad requirements for homeschoolers?

 

In some states you wouldn't need so much social studies and physical science counts for high school so you would just need biology.

 

Does he need personal finance to graduate ? Also, you have 3 foreign language credits, not 2. Could you drop Russian?

I guess what I'm saying is that I know it wouldn't be your ideal by any means to cut, but neither is dropping out. Perhaps culling to the least amount of credits required would be enough for a child who is headed straight to the military.

 

No, my state does not have graduation requirements. It is completely up to me. These requirements are very in line with the local high schools, except they require PE credits and stuff, which I think is stupid LOL.

 

He does not need personal finance to graduate, but he desperately needs personal finance. :lol:

 

He chose the Russian as one of his electives.

 

We THINK he is headed straight for the military. He has not gone to MEPS yet, so we don't know if he'll get yanked for some reason. I don't want to assume that he's going straight to the military, end up with him NOT joining, then not be able to get into a college (if he chooses to) because he doesn't have the credits. I based these graduation requirements off of some average college requirements and the local high schools.

 

HOWEVER, I HAVE been contemplating eliminating some of them and just having him go to CC first and then college, if that's the route he ends up taking. Some classes I feel are very important for him to take, period, like government and personal finance, so I won't eliminate those. But others I might be able to. I'm still pondering.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I was thinking the same as MinivanMom -- lower expectations by a LOT and issue a diploma. If the credit requirements are non-negotiable, do you need to take another look at the difficulty level of those courses? Can they be more streamlined for success, if not made easier? Also, the hourly check of each and every assignment may be necessary for the rest of his homeschooling career, no matter what he's able to accomplish for someone else on a job site.

 

Mother of four sons here (ages 11 to 19), with experience in Aspergers and ADHD...

 

It's not that I think any of these boys should be short-changed in any way, that they don't deserve the best of what we can offer, etc. It's more that I strongly believe that they need to be able to succeed before leaving home. Do we have the bar in the right place or not? It's a balancing act to find the right place for the bars and hurdles we set before them...

 

sometimes that horrible school up the road, with the two novels per semester in English and the lack of calculus for 12th grade, should be considered when we're figuring out whether we can pass or graduate our kids. Maybe those standards are actually right for some students.

If they can't or won't (and I think the "won't" actually is a "can't" that we don't recognize, frequently), maybe we're not being fair by requiring rigorous homeschool curriculum. What do their peers pass with, that they are sufficiently prepared to go on to enlist, to get a job and keep a job, go to cc, whatever? Sometimes that's good enough for our kids, too, because it's what they CAN and WILL do, and they are just as much earning their diploma as the kids in the brick and mortar school down the road.

 

Ditto for constant accountability. If that's what it takes to get them through, then we do it. It's very hard because we're too busy and we wish they were more independent (and some of their peers definitely are), but success needs to happen daily in order for success to stick. Sometimes we need to help them get the job done and get out there in the bigger world where they do better.

 

I don't think that's bad or disappointing or wrong. It's just unexpected.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[razorbackmama]

If the credit requirements are non-negotiable, do you need to take another look at the difficulty level of those courses? Can they be more streamlined for success, if not made easier?

I have already done that.

 

I'm not willing to "call it good" and just graduate him, although I DO just want to be done with it all. His lack of credits is due to him not doing his assignments, not due to a learning disability. For example, a couple of weeks ago, he literally, in one week's time, read 2 chapters of The Three Musketeers. That was it. That was with me saying things like, "So how is your school coming?" all week (since that's what I do). It is not normally that bad (otherwise I would be doing more than just saying "So how is your school coming?"), but that's just an example of how he sometimes will spend his time doing who-knows-what...daydreaming, drawing, anything other than school. Making coffee, taking a shower, chit-chatting with a sibling, etc. When the pressure is on, he can get the job done (he can get himself out of bed when he has to be somewhere on time), but when there is just a regular school day ahead of him, it's slooooowwwww motion.

 

So in a way I don't feel right letting him off the hook for his poor decisions.

 

But on the other hand, I'm tired.

[MinivanMom]

He has a late August birthday, is a boy, and was INCREDIBLY immature the year he turned 5. There was no way he was ready to start kindergarten that fall. So he started kindergarten the year he turned 6. He has followed on from there. Gotcha!

 

*snip*

 

That makes a total of:

4 English

3 math

3 science

3.5 social studies

1 fine arts

2 foreign language

5.5 electives

_________

22 total credits

 

We have a target date for graduation June 2, 2017.

 

 

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, he only completed 8.25 credits over his 9th and 10th grade years? And he will only be completing 5 credits for 11th grade? I don't generally think that it's impossible to do 9.25 credits if it's spread over summer plus 12th grade, but I'm wondering if it's a reasonable goal for this particular child. He may be promising to go at double speed. He may really believe that he can go at double speed. But I think history tells you that 4-5 credits per year is his max.

 

Some ideas:

- Has he been involved in any kind of sport or ongoing physical activity over the past 3 years? If it adds up to 120 hrs over that 3 yr period, then I would give him a Physical Education credit.

- How long has he been working? If it adds up to 120 hrs, then you can award him an additional "Work Experience" credit so that he completes a total of 6 credits for this school year.

- The only classes that look absolutely essential for next year are English 4, Alg 2, Biology, and completing the second half of the World and American History classes. The rest are electives that he doesn't need to enter the military. Focus on just those 4 credit hrs (since 4 credits seem to be doable for him) and give him an additional elective credit for "Work Experience". That will be 5 credits for next year.

- If he does all that, then he will only need 1.75 credits of electives this summer to hit the magical 22-credit mark. You can make them fun electives that get done with minimal effort or serious electives that help him leave the door open for college. The Personal Finance could be 1 credit and the other credit could be a third science class. I wouldn't do Physics. I would let him choose something easy and fun with no labs like earth science, astronomy, or marine science. 

[freesia]

No, my state does not have graduation requirements. It is completely up to me. These requirements are very in line with the local high schools, except they require PE credits and stuff, which I think is stupid LOL.

 

He does not need personal finance to graduate, but he desperately needs personal finance. :lol:

 

He chose the Russian as one of his electives.

 

We THINK he is headed straight for the military. He has not gone to MEPS yet, so we don't know if he'll get yanked for some reason. I don't want to assume that he's going straight to the military, end up with him NOT joining, then not be able to get into a college (if he chooses to) because he doesn't have the credits. I based these graduation requirements off of some average college requirements and the local high schools.

 

HOWEVER, I HAVE been contemplating eliminating some of them and just having him go to CC first and then college, if that's the route he ends up taking. Some classes I feel are very important for him to take, period, like government and personal finance, so I won't eliminate those. But others I might be able to. I'm still pondering.

I really think you should in your circumstance. CC is the most realistic college option-- so you don't throw money away.

 

In your situation, I would require to graduate:

English 3&4

Algebra 2

Biology

Government

Personal Finance

 

I'd count hours for anything else like the theatre and Russian, but wouldn't require them .

 

I would fo a daily work check in and require evening and weekend work if he hadn't done enough .

 

I actually would suggest requiring s half credit PE. Days with my teen go much better bc he does his required run first thing.

[razorbackmama]

Our curriculum is not rigorous by any stretch of the imagination.

[razorbackmama]

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, he only completed 8.25 credits over his 9th and 10th grade years? And he will only be completing 5 credits for 11th grade? I don't generally think that it's impossible to do 9.25 credits if it's spread over summer plus 12th grade, but I'm wondering if it's a reasonable goal for this particular child. He may be promising to go at double speed. He may really believe that he can go at double speed. But I think history tells you that 4-5 credits per year is his max.

 

Bingo. That's why I'm not holding my breath.

 

Some ideas:

- Has he been involved in any kind of sport or ongoing physical activity over the past 3 years? If it adds up to 120 hrs over that 3 yr period, then I would give him a Physical Education credit.

 

No, he has not.

 

- How long has he been working? If it adds up to 120 hrs, then you can award him an additional "Work Experience" credit so that he completes a total of 6 credits for this school year.

 

He has been working since August. I actually asked here about assigning credit for his part-time job a couple weeks ago. It was quite a lively discussion LOL.

 

- The only classes that look absolutely essential for next year are English 4, Alg 2, Biology, and completing the second half of the World and American History classes. The rest are electives that he doesn't need to enter the military. Focus on just those 4 credit hrs (since 4 credits seem to be doable for him) and give him an additional elective credit for "Work Experience". That will be 5 credits for next year.

 

Military isn't so much my concern as much as the "what if he doesn't get into the military."

 

- If he does all that, then he will only need 1.75 credits of electives this summer to hit the magical 22-credit mark. You can make them fun electives that get done with minimal effort or serious electives that help him leave the door open for college. The Personal Finance could be 1 credit and the other credit could be a third science class. I wouldn't do Physics. I would let him choose something easy and fun with no labs like earth science, astronomy, or marine science. 

 

He is the one who chose physics. We did purposefully choose a physics course that only requires Alg. 1 and geometry as prerequisites. His biology is going to be sort of "light" - it is advanced pre-med studies rather than a regular biology course.

 

We don't school on a regular school calendar (since we take so many stupid breaks during the regular school year). So there is not really a way to "just" take a certain amount of credits this summer. He will be doing school all summer, period. He IS going to be earning some fine arts credit this summer because he is taking an acting class through our city and will be in a musical.

 

[razorbackmama]

I really think you should in your circumstance. CC is the most realistic college option-- so you don't throw money away.

 

I will not be paying for his college anyway. LOL I might have considered it if he had a different work ethic when it came to school. But at this rate, no way.

 

In your situation, I would require to graduate:

English 3&4

Algebra 2

Biology

Government

Personal Finance

 

I'd count hours for anything else like the theatre and Russian, but wouldn't require them .

 

I would fo a daily work check in and require evening and weekend work if he hadn't done enough .

 

Weekend and night work is already required.

 

I actually would suggest requiring s half credit PE. Days with my teen go much better bc he does his required run first thing.

 

Hmmmm something to ponder. I absolutely dread enforcing this though. Me saying it's "required" means absolutely nothing to him. Or heck any of my other kids. But that's probably another sob story for another time. What constitutes your 1/2 PE credit? Just a run in the morning? Or other things too?

 

[freesia]

PE credit for Ds this year is a run and his 2 hour a week junior climbing team plus and Boy Scout hikes and a short run of tennis lessons. He probably does more than half a credit this year, actually.

 

However, I would give half a credit for a total of 2 hous a week of running (and I encourage push ups and sit ups). My primary goal for high school

PE is lifestyle fitness. I try to add skill development in other areas, but really want them to see the benefit and develop the habit. I am helped that 3 credits are the law in NY so I just tell them they have to or we'd be breaking the law.

 

In the beginning of developing the habit, dh went with them.( I have knee problems--if they don't want to run they can always do Ledlue Sansone with me- but they groan at the thought!)

[razorbackmama]

PE credit for Ds this year is a run and his 2 hour a week junior climbing team plus and Boy Scout hikes and a short run of tennis lessons. He probably does more than half a credit this year, actually.

 

However, I would give half a credit for a total of 2 hous a week of running (and I encourage push ups and sit ups). My primary goal for high school

PE is lifestyle fitness. I try to add skill development in other areas, but really want them to see the benefit and develop the habit. I am helped that 3 credits are the law in NY so I just tell them they have to or we'd be breaking the law.

 

In the beginning of developing the habit, dh went with them.( I have knee problems--if they don't want to run they can always do Ledlue Sansone with me- but they groan at the thought!)

 

Thank you, that helps! He's not a sports guy at all, though in theory I think he'd like to be more physically fit. His older brother is a fitness FREAK (it's beyond normal HAHA), so I think at times he wants to be like him, but then at other times he thinks, nah, this requires too much effort. LOL

 

I'm about to start attending Crossfit (tired of being weak)...maybe I could have him go with me???????

Edited May 4, 2016 by razorbackmama

[freesia]

Thank you, that helps! He's not a sports guy at all, though in theory I think he'd like to be more physically fit. His older brother is a fitness FREAK (it's beyond normal HAHA), so I think at times he wants to be like him, but then at other times he thinks, nah, this requires too much effort. LOL

 

I'm about to start attending Crossfit (tired of being weak)...maybe I could have him go with me???????

My Ds actually is not a huge sorts guy, either. The only physical activity he likes is climbing- that's why were doing it. But he runs bc he has to.

 

I love the idea of you doing Crossfit together. I think it helps a lot when everyone in the family is active. Hell probably complain at first, but I bet he'll like getting stronger--particularly bc you can compare with him and he'll win.lol

 

Eta sorry for the typos I'm on my phone!

Edited May 4, 2016 by freesia

[Tsuga]

Have you considered that the lying could be a direct result of being told he's lazy, etc. when he doesn't get things done on the timetable you expect?  Even if you don't say it explicitly or on a regular basis, it may come across in your attitude. (Lord knows I have a VERY hard time at times controlling my own attitude when dealing with my DD's bad attitude!)

 

I think you guys are really putting a lot of assumptions on her for admitting that her child has character flaws.

 

I get that in some cultures it is taboo to say "my kid is lazy" "my kid is selfish" "my kid is jealous" "my kid is impatient". Like that is just shocking and would imply that the parent is hovering over the child insulting them. But to my mind this is no different than any other way of characterizing a child's pattern of behavior and PC or psycho-medical or any other type of label does not change it. Kids know what is going on. We all do. People form beliefs about how others will act based on past behavior.

 

Kids ALL have to deal with that and learn to step up. 

 

Kids pick up on things from us even when we don't say them outright.

 

 

The idea that (a) our kids can read our minds to some extent when we are thinking about their characters, and (b) thinking things such as 'wow, she is a pretty jealous kid' or 'my goodness this child doesn't have any sense of personal space' or 'holy cow the lazy, how will we overcome it' actually causes those behaviors (again, just because we are thinking it) and (c ) that therefore, making ANY judgment of a child's strengths and weaknesses is actually causing them to succeed or fail, I find very disturbing.

 

 

It is disturbing because most of us form beliefs about our children's character  (at that time) based on repeated behavior.

 

It is  disturbing because forming such beliefs is how we decide to effect changes in their behavior. "Hmmm... not attentive. Maybe I'll give shorter tasks."

 

It is disturbing because it does not give ANY room for biological propensity to one or another behavior.

 

 

Most of all, given that most of us aren't blind and we live with our own kids 24/7 and we are human, it's not like we can change that. Living with someone who is constantly lying in spite of repeated, consistent behavioral training that is in accordance with all expert opinions, for example... that is incredibly frustrating and you'd have to be an idiot to think you could walk out the house thinking "I'm sure he told the truth this time!" That would be stupid. So clearly we all form beliefs about our children's strengths and weaknesses and if they intuit these, oh well.

 

Lazy is as lazy does. 

 

I'm sure OP does not try to imbue in her son the thought that he is lazy, but even if his laziness is a result of her realizing he is lazy, what can she do? Just take a pill so she doesn't realize what's happening so he gets a fresh start?

Edited May 4, 2016 by Tsuga

[razorbackmama]

Tsuga, thank you.

[ondreeuh]

I am sorry. I have a child like that as well. The kid has ADD but is no longer taking meds for medical reasons. I will say that the lack of meds has had so many negative consequences, from lack of focusing (obviously) to severe underachievement, lack of learning/practicing time management skills, and most of all shame because the kid KNOWS what is expected and just.can't.do.it. It is WAY more than a school issue; it is a success-in-life issue. I am not usually quick to armchair-diagnose a kid, but from what you've described it sounds like a SEVERE deficit in executive functioning, probably due to ADD.

 

You can't fix this through parenting. You can't fix this by stepping back, letting the kid freeload, and waiting for real life to teach the lessons. You can't sign the kid over to the military or public school and let them teach the lessons, because the brain is not receptive. There is no way out. As you have experienced, you can try EVERYTHING to teach the skills and it doesn't work. Honestly, it is a disability. It really is. And if you can treat the disability, then for the love of god, treat it. I wish we could.

 

In your position (which I very nearly am, but I don't give too many details online) I would not discourage meds. Yes, it could prevent admittance to the military, but in the grand scheme of things I think that is way down the priority list. Is your kid even on track to getting into the military at this point? What kind of career could he have there without adequate executive function? What if meds made the difference in being able to LEARN and USE time management skills that will set the kid up for success in college and future employment? Honestly, I think focusing on military eligibility is short-sighted. I would focus on doing whatever it takes to salvage some of this brief time left before adulthood and give him as great a chance for success as I could.

 

I mean this is the most encouraging way possible. I have walked in your shoes. I am still walking in them. Let go of the guilt - you have truly done your best. I completely support you stepping back and letting chips fall, but I just don't think your child is going to make up missing skills on his own (or through the military). I fully believe that parenting young adults is the hardest phase of all, because there's such a fine line between supporting a kid to help them succeed and enabling them to help them fail. It is an impossible tightrope walk.

 

[foxbridgeacademy]

Just a different perspective....

 

I was hesitant to post yesterday because only you know your son. However, here is my input to consider..

 

He is turning 18. There are people (kids) who truly will not see the point of school work as long as at feels (to them) that they are doing this for other people. I was that kid. I did graduate high school. This was only possible because my Mom and I came to an agreement when I was @ 15 which simply was that Mom would not bother me about school work and I would promise to pass. This is what I did. I simply passed the classes I needed to get done. My Mom held up her side of the bargain and never asked me about school work. 

 

The irony of this is that as soon as I had the high school diploma I started to take classes at night on my own. I have never stopped taking classes in all sorts of subjects and did end up getting a degree; although much later than most.

 

All this to say that maybe you just need to let it go. Get him to graduate in some way. And have him make his life his. I try to do this with my children all the time and started this early because of my own background.

 

Hope this helps to give a different perspective.

:iagree: Exactly, do the basic's for next year (senior year?) give him a test in each subject, a practice CLEP? And be done.  Offer or require a weekly meeting to go over issues, offer help, mini practice quizzes until he's ready to take the test.

 

 I did not finish H.S., I got a GED because I just could not stand all the time spent on something that didn't count anyway( My mom tried HSing me first).  I did great at University though, I loved it.  If I had my way (more $$) I would be a full time student.  He might just need to feel in control of his own life and it might take a couple years to get the maturity to make plans, work hard, and follow through.   

 

* I took the GED at 20 and got a near perfect score in everything but Math, the University I went to is somewhat selective but was happy to have me based on that score.  So, I wouldn't give up hope I'd just change the game plan.

 

*I think if my parents had been willing to medicate me things might have gone a bit smoother. I'm definitely ADD but thankfully I've managed to learn to deal with an work around many of my issues..... It only took me 35+ years.

Edited May 4, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I am sorry. I have a child like that as well. The kid has ADD but is no longer taking meds for medical reasons. I will say that the lack of meds has had so many negative consequences, from lack of focusing (obviously) to severe underachievement, lack of learning/practicing time management skills, and most of all shame because the kid KNOWS what is expected and just.can't.do.it. It is WAY more than a school issue; it is a success-in-life issue. I am not usually quick to armchair-diagnose a kid, but from what you've described it sounds like a SEVERE deficit in executive functioning, probably due to ADD.

 

You can't fix this through parenting. You can't fix this by stepping back, letting the kid freeload, and waiting for real life to teach the lessons. You can't sign the kid over to the military or public school and let them teach the lessons, because the brain is not receptive. There is no way out. As you have experienced, you can try EVERYTHING to teach the skills and it doesn't work. Honestly, it is a disability. It really is. And if you can treat the disability, then for the love of god, treat it. I wish we could.

 

In your position (which I very nearly am, but I don't give too many details online) I would not discourage meds. Yes, it could prevent admittance to the military, but in the grand scheme of things I think that is way down the priority list. Is your kid even on track to getting into the military at this point? What kind of career could he have there without adequate executive function? What if meds made the difference in being able to LEARN and USE time management skills that will set the kid up for success in college and future employment? Honestly, I think focusing on military eligibility is short-sighted. I would focus on doing whatever it takes to salvage some of this brief time left before adulthood and give him as great a chance for success as I could.

 

I mean this is the most encouraging way possible. I have walked in your shoes. I am still walking in them. Let go of the guilt - you have truly done your best. I completely support you stepping back and letting chips fall, but I just don't think your child is going to make up missing skills on his own (or through the military). I fully believe that parenting young adults is the hardest phase of all, because there's such a fine line between supporting a kid to help them succeed and enabling them to help them fail. It is an impossible tightrope walk.

 

This is what my post was meant to convey, because I also know a thing or two about it, but I don't think I came across as I intended. But this is what I meant about finding what it takes to start racking up some wins so that a next step can also be successful...

 

[razorbackmama]

 

Is your kid even on track to getting into the military at this point?

 

Yes.

 

What kind of career could he have there without adequate executive function?

 

Anything that isn't ruled out due to his colorblindness. He has considered electronics, corpsman, or linguistics. Of course that all depends on the rates available to him. He is not like this in every area of his life. He does absolutely fine at work. He takes initiative when he has a goal in mind and gets the job done. But when it comes to something that is just sort of "blah" in his mind, he doesn't.

 

What if meds made the difference in being able to LEARN and USE time management skills that will set the kid up for success in college and future employment?

 

Time management is his only issue. He doesn't have any trouble learning.

 

I guess part of my wavering about meds and such is because I have known people who have truly needed ADD meds. He is not like them at all. I'm not saying he might not need a little bit like caffeine...he says caffeine calms him...but requiring prescription meds, I don't know.

 

I think with school, one HUGE issue is that he hasn't had that "aha" moment of "this is what I want to pursue. He does want to join the Navy, but he's not at all like my older son who ate, slept, and breathed the Marines (and was thus HIGHLY motivated to graduate on time so he could enlist immediately). My junior has SO many interests...acting, the medical field, electronics, music, manual labor outside. When he DOES get his mind focused on something, he works hard. But since he hasn't had that happen when what he wants to do post-high school...he doesn't. I'm not wanting to pressure him into choosing a career right now...I didn't figure out what I wanted to be when I grow up till last October! And my husband didn't decide his career until after he had graduated from college (and had to go back for some prerequisites!). So he doesn't have to choose RIGHT NOW. But until he does choose, he doesn't have any motivation to keep him plugging along without lots of external input.

 

[Heather in WI]

No advice, but sending virtual {hugs}. Wishing for you a day of peace, confidence, wisdom, and joy.

[razorbackmama]

No advice, but sending virtual {hugs}. Wishing for you a day of peace, confidence, wisdom, and joy.

 

Thank you! :grouphug: I was up late dealing with some of my Marine son's problems as well (and he lives 4 time zones away!), so I've got THAT on my mind today as well.

 

[katilac]

Just a reminder that meds are not the only treatment for ADD or ADD-like symptoms.

 

Check with your insurance and see if they will pay for any sessions with a cognitive behavior therapist, or any outcomes-based therapist. They can teach him strategies and also help him narrow down his goals and focus. 

 

Also, I would consider school for his final year, particularly if your school has a credit recovery program. I'd call right now, he may be able to start over the summer. When things are going south at home, it may be time to have him working for someone else. 

 

 

[DebbS]

I haven't read all of the comments here, so I don't know what others have said. I just want to encourage you because he sounds like my son at that age!

 

One thing that helped was that I put him in courses provided through an academy. It became very important to him to do his work for those outside providers and it turned out that competition with other students drove him to come to class very prepared. He still wouldn't do the work for me until I just gave up and stepped back. Once it was completely in his court, he did it on his own. He's a bit ADD but I suspect, in hindsight, that it was mostly an independence from mom thing.

 

He is now a straight A college student and is making good life choices. I am sooo looking forward to bringing him home for summer break tomorrow!

[razorbackmama]

Also, I would consider school for his final year, particularly if your school has a credit recovery program. I'd call right now, he may be able to start over the summer. When things are going south at home, it may be time to have him working for someone else. 

 

Our public high school is not an option.

[razorbackmama]

One thing that helped was that I put him in courses provided through an academy. It became very important to him to do his work for those outside providers and it turned out that competition with other students drove him to come to class very prepared. He still wouldn't do the work for me until I just gave up and stepped back. Once it was completely in his court, he did it on his own. He's a bit ADD but I suspect, in hindsight, that it was mostly an independence from mom thing.

What sort of academy? Something online? Or in person?

 

He has taken online classes with other, non-mom teachers before. I still had to stay on him to make sure he turned in his stuff. He is taking some next year...I'm hoping it goes better this time.

 

I've considered enrolling him in some other type of in-person school for his senior year, but our choices are EXTREMELY limited here (even in a major metro area...it's very annoying), so I'm not sure it's a viable option.

[DebbS]

What sort of academy? Something online? Or in person?

 

He has taken online classes with other, non-mom teachers before. I still had to stay on him to make sure he turned in his stuff. He is taking some next year...I'm hoping it goes better this time.

 

I've considered enrolling him in some other type of in-person school for his senior year, but our choices are EXTREMELY limited here (even in a major metro area...it's very annoying), so I'm not sure it's a viable option.

 

It was a homeschool academy. The teachers were college professors for the most part. And male. That helped too I think.

[razorbackmama]

It was a homeschool academy. The teachers were college professors for the most part. And male. That helped too I think.

 

That sounds cool. We don't have anything like that here. :-(

[Paige]

He sounds a lot like my DS who, fwiw, is quite a bit younger than yours (14). He is very bright, is capable of good work, but rarely accomplishes all of what he should and resists all attempts to help with his organization and executive functioning skills. He is convinced that "working harder" will solve his problems.  :banghead:

 

You say he spent all week and only read 2 chapters. My first thought was that I have been trying to read The Three Musketeers and have barely made it past chapt 2 in over a month! I hate it and can sympathize with your DS. Maybe it picks up, but the first part is painful and I've been reading almost exclusively classics for the past 2 years and am used to some tough slogs!

 

My 2nd thought was, what is he doing with his time if he's not doing his school? My DS has OCD and that takes up most of his day if he's having a bad day. DS's problem is that he still is not always convinced that his OCD trigger/response is not beneficial (he thinks he needs it, which is an issue for a therapist!), so it's sometimes difficult to get him to cooperate with my attempts to divert him. If you can find what your DS is actually doing, you may be able to pinpoint why he's having so much trouble staying on task. ADD, OCD, and other anxiety or sensory issues can be helped with medicine, therapy, and strategies, but those used would be different depending on what the cause is. When I first noticed DS having difficulties, we thought ADD for sure, but that type of treatment and those strategies did not help him at all.

 

I think my DS needs to go to school next year because the environment of school, with people all around, will inhibit his OCD behaviors and help him avoid losing all day in a hole. We've tried to help him at home, but he is too comfortable with us and we aren't distracting enough. Maybe your DS would benefit from some community college classes or a different environment- even spending his day at the library or something like that may affect his behavior.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Paige

[razorbackmama]

You say he spent all week and only read 2 chapters. My first thought was that I have been trying to read The Three Musketeers and have barely made it past chapt 2 in over a month! I hate it and can sympathize with your DS. Maybe it picks up, but the first part is painful and I've been reading almost exclusively classics for the past 2 years and am used to some tough slogs!

 

No, that's all he did period for school. No math, no history, no science, no nothing. Reading his lit book seems to be his "go to" for something to cross off the list to show that he's done "something" for school, if that makes sense.

 

My 2nd thought was, what is he doing with his time if he's not doing his school?

 

It varies. Today he started going on rabbit trails about secession and thinking about how possible it might (or might not) be, and I had to rein him in on that LOL. Sometimes he draws. Sometimes he mills about upstairs (he does school in the basement where there aren't toddlers and preschoolers running around to REALLY distract him), makes coffee, tries to chat with us, etc.

 

[Supertechmom]

Perhaps he would do all the work for a class at once?  Maybe make English a 9 week class.... The only class.  Here's all the assignments, do it all as quickly as possible and no more of that.  And then take a week off and then start the next class.  I did really well in school due to fear of my mother.  But I hated school.  HATED IT. Everyone thought I was great at it but i did well because i was too scared not to do well.  I went to college and liked it but it was still a drawn out OMG when the hell will it ever be over.....  When I took a ADN to BSN program, the classes were 8 weeks long.  PERFECT!  About the time, I got the feeling of it's too long, when will it be over, when can I quit..... class over!  Love love love 8 week classes.   Devout myself to one class, do everything and it is OVER!   Maybe he would like that idea?

[razorbackmama]

Perhaps he would do all the work for a class at once?  Maybe make English a 9 week class.... The only class.  Here's all the assignments, do it all as quickly as possible and no more of that.  And then take a week off and then start the next class.  I did really well in school due to fear of my mother.  But I hated school.  HATED IT. Everyone thought I was great at it but i did well because i was too scared not to do well.  I went to college and liked it but it was still a drawn out OMG when the hell will it ever be over.....  When I took a ADN to BSN program, the classes were 8 weeks long.  PERFECT!  About the time, I got the feeling of it's too long, when will it be over, when can I quit..... class over!  Love love love 8 week classes.   Devout myself to one class, do everything and it is OVER!   Maybe he would like that idea?

Maybe????? How would that work with skill areas like math and such, where skills need to be built gradually over time?

 

I can definitely ask him. I'm not sure if he'd go for it or not.

[Supertechmom]

I don't know how it will work for math but it looks like he only has Alg 2 left to complete?  Maybe schedule it first???  Around here the schools do block scheduling and many students take math one semester and then no more till the next school year.  They seem to be doing fine with it.