Are some colleges/trade schools still in the dark ages?

[razorbackmama]

Do some still not accept a home school diploma?

[8filltheheart]

There are a few schools out there that do present problems for homeschoolers. Public universities in NY and MA are ones that are talked about quite frequently.

[happypamama]

Until a couple of years ago, a homeschool diploma in my state wasn't necessarily recognized the same way. One of our big schools didn't seem to recognize a homeschool diploma for a while, so we are very glad the law has changed.

[Hilltopmom]

Yep. NY does not recognize a homeschool diploma at all.

 

You must have other documentation- letter from school district or GED basically, that's the short answer;)

[G5052]

I think most colleges/universities are catching on, but trade schools are lagging behind them. I know many kids locally who chose to continue their educations at trade schools, and all of them had to go the GED route because their homeschool diplomas weren't accepted.

 

Same here. The trade schools and unions with apprenticeship programs are behind in this area.

[regentrude]

Same here. The trade schools and unions with apprenticeship programs are behind in this area.

 

Do you think that might be because those students do not typically take standardized tests? The colleges have SAT, ACT and AP scores as outside validation, but I would assume trade schools don't require any such thing.

[FaithManor]

Some cosmetology schools here do not recognize homeschool diplomas. So if the coursework and testing is not completed through the county tech center while in high school, the adult student may be asked to produce the GED.

[EKS]

I've seen art schools that don't accept homeschool diplomas.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Drexel required an accredited diploma or GED or 24 college credits.

 

DS was irked enough by to requirement to strike Drexel off his application list.

[razorbackmama]

Drexel required an accredited diploma or GED or 24 college credits.

 

DS was irked enough by to requirement to strike Drexel off his application list.

 

This is so how we are. It's like whenever people tell me that some colleges don't accept ASL as a foreign language...then we'll just take our money elsewhere. :lol:

 

In a way I can see the trade school issue. Although it's not true, the prevailing thought is that a student chooses trade school because they are "not college material." I wonder if the thinking is that these students couldn't cut it in high school and either dropped out or flunked out. So to get their diploma they produce a "home school diploma." It wouldn't be the case here, but I can totally see it happening in cases of students who truly weren't homeschooled. I wonder what other test besides the GED might be the equivalent of the ACT/SAT, to demonstrate that a student ISN'T just a lazy bum who couldn't cut it in high school?

 

For these trade schools, would a home school diploma from an umbrella school count? Or would it still be frowned on?

 

I wonder if we can get Mike Rowe to start some pressure on the trade schools to start accepting home school diplomas more? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

What's interesting is that a home school diploma is accepted better than a GED in the military.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm the same way. If the school makes it too onerous for homeschoolers to apply, they're off our list. I'll take my money elsewhere. Their loss, not mine.

 

Now that acceptances are in for that kid, I'm considering going back to a couple admissions offices with commentary.

 

I would really like Adam at WPI's boss to know how awesome he was at responding to my queries.  He was timely and detailed in his responses.  (Quite unlike the admissions rep at another school who kept asking for information that was difficult to track down and then didn't solve the problem - misfiled SAT scores.)

 

I would like Drexel to know that their policy put them into the category of not homeschool friendly as far as we were concerned.  DS would have been in the top 10-25% of their students, based on test scores.  He had AP exam scores and a quality DE record.  There was no reason why a GED should have been necessary and the alternative of 24 credits of college work is a little silly.  It's like saying that a student needs to have junior standing in college in order to be considered alongside high school seniors.  No thanks.  The whole discussion turned around my opinion of Drexel (which had started out favorable based on a friend attending there).

[Lori D.]

Same here. The trade schools and unions with apprenticeship programs are behind in this area.

 

Do you think that might be because those students do not typically take standardized tests? The colleges have SAT, ACT and AP scores as outside validation, but I would assume trade schools don't require any such thing.

 

...In a way I can see the trade school issue… I wonder if the thinking is that these students couldn't cut it in high school and either dropped out or flunked out. So to get their diploma they produce a "home school diploma." It wouldn't be the case here, but I can totally see it happening in cases of students who truly weren't home schooled...

 

...For these trade schools, would a home school diploma from an umbrella school count? Or would it still be frowned on?...

 

My guess is similar to yours -- fear of getting flooded by drop-outs, or fear of encouraging high school students to drop out and just say they are homeschool graduates… That could definitely be a a big reason why Vo-Tech and Trade Schools are not eager to accept homeschool diplomas.

 

Most of the Vo-Tech and Trade Schools do seem to accept an *accredited* homeschool diploma, as long as the diploma comes from a correspondence school or umbrella organization that has *its* accreditation from a well-recognized/accepted source (i.e. regional accreditation organization that is long-standing and nationally accepted).

 

So, diplomas awarded from places like Kolbe (accreditation: Nat'l Assoc. of Private Catholic and Independent Schools), Clonlara (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools), and American School (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools; Accreditation International; and National Council for Private School Accreditation) work well for Vo-Tech and Trade Schools.

 

 

...What's interesting is that a home school diploma is accepted better than a GED in the military.

 

Well, that took a good 12-15 years to get to that point. :) It wasn't until 2012 that federal legislation was finally pushed through so that home-awarded diplomas must be accepted by the military as equal with public high school diplomas.

 

However, many military recruiters are still way behind the times, and most homeschool families trying to enlist their graduates have to spend a lot of time educating their recruiter (and going up the chain over the head of the recruiter) to get that sorted out… ;)

 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lori D.

[razorbackmama]

 

Most of the Vo-Tech and Trade Schools do seem to accept an *accredited* homeschool diploma, as long as the diploma comes from a correspondence school or umbrella organization that has *its* accreditation from a well-recognized/accepted source (i.e. regional accreditation organization that is long-standing and nationally accepted).

 

So, diplomas awarded from places like Kolbe (accreditation: Nat'l Assoc. of Private Catholic and Independent Schools), Clonlara (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools), and American School (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools; Accreditation International; and National Council for Private School Accreditation) work well for Vo-Tech and Trade Schools.

 

(UGH I hate the way this forum software quotes!!!!!) I think that's the kicker. What sparked this question was a conversation I'm having with a mom who wants a diploma from someone other than just herself, for trade school purposes. Several people suggested local umbrella schools. I'm curious as to whether those will really count either.

 

The Marine Corps considered my diploma "accredited" because I had a letter from our school district (where I submit my notice of intent) saying that we followed state law in our homeschooling.

 

However, many military recruiters are still way behind the times, and most homeschool families trying to enlist their graduates have to spend a lot of time educating their recruiter (and going up the chain over the head of the recruiter) to get that sorted out… ;)

 

 

Yes, the first recruiter that my son went to told him he couldn't join the Marines because he was homeschooled. We knew that was a bunch of bull so we went somewhere else. This office had experience with homeschoolers so it was easy-peasy. I keep thinking my son should waltz into the first office sometime and do a Pretty Woman on them. Maybe if he ever receives a Medal of Honor or something LOL.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

 

 

 

 

 

My guess is similar to yours -- fear of getting flooded by drop-outs, or fear of encouraging high school students to drop out and just say they are homeschool graduates… That could definitely be a a big reason why Vo-Tech and Trade Schools are not eager to accept homeschool diplomas.

 

Most of the Vo-Tech and Trade Schools do seem to accept an *accredited* homeschool diploma, as long as the diploma comes from a correspondence school or umbrella organization that has *its* accreditation from a well-recognized/accepted source (i.e. regional accreditation organization that is long-standing and nationally accepted).

 

So, diplomas awarded from places like Kolbe (accreditation: Nat'l Assoc. of Private Catholic and Independent Schools), Clonlara (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools), and American School (accreditation: Middle States Assoc. of Colleges and Schools; Accreditation International; and National Council for Private School Accreditation) work well for Vo-Tech and Trade Schools.

 

 

 

Well, that took a good 12-15 years to get to that point. :) It wasn't until 2012 that federal legislation was finally pushed through so that home-awarded diplomas must be accepted by the military as equal with public high school diplomas.

 

However, many military recruiters are still way behind the times, and most homeschool families trying to enlist their graduates have to spend a lot of time educating their recruiter (and going up the chain over the head of the recruiter) to get that sorted out… ;)

 

 

I don't know if it's that recruiters are behind the times.  Homeschoolers are only 1-3% of students in the US.  The numbers get smaller when you hit high school.  So let's say about 1% of high school graduates are homeschooled (I think that would be fair, especially once you take out students who used a home study charter school, who would have a PS diploma, not a homeschool diploma).  

 

That means that if a recruiter deals with 1000 students, about 10 of them are going to be homeschoolers.  They may go back to the instruction for recruiting that explains how to handle homeschoolers.  Or they may go with what the other recruiter thinks he remembers from training.

 

I run into similar issues with dealing with recruiters for ROTC applications or other officer recruiting issues (like Medical Corps programs).  It is such a small part of what they are usually doing that they are much less familiar with the ins and outs of the requirements.  [One of my favorite emails was from a ROTC Coordinator who said he couldn't answer a question and that ds needed to talk to a ROTC Coordinator instead.  We read the email, looked at his signature block and made an assessment on how helpful info from that particular person was going to be.]

 

In the military, I find it often helps to say, "I don't quite understand that, could you show me the reference."  Everything is governed by an instruction, manual or memorandum.  They typically have references.  Someone who is going to join the military ought to get comfortable with this type of questioning and research, because it will be how you straighten out pay problems, figure out eligibility for advancement, and determine what allowances you get when you move.  There is a lot of bad info out there.  The written instruction is the go to reference.   :rant:

[Bluegoat]

I wonder if with trade scools it isn't because many have for a long time had policies and procedures for admitting students without a regular diploma? 

[Nan in Mass]

...

In a way I can see the trade school issue. Although it's not true, the prevailing thought is that a student chooses trade school because they are "not college material." I wonder if the thinking is that these students couldn't cut it in high school and either dropped out or flunked out. So to get their diploma they produce a "home school diploma." It wouldn't be the case here, but I can totally see it happening in cases of students who truly weren't homeschooled. I wonder what other test besides the GED might be the equivalent of the ACT/SAT, to demonstrate that a student ISN'T just a lazy bum who couldn't cut it in high school?

...

 

 

I was told by my school system that this is why the yearly plan/approval/assessment paperwork in Massachusetts exists.  For a long time, I thought those states which required no paperwork had the right idea, but then we had an opportunity to receive a state scholarship for high schoolers for community college and people began talking about "ability to benefit" and suddenly I was extremely grateful for those yearly approval letters from the local school system for exactly the reason they had originally told me it existed - it distinguished my students from drop-outs.  When we began dealing with college applications and financial aid applications, I was grateful all over again.  Those four approval letters (one for each year of high school) dealt with the whole question of whether my children were really high school graduates and eligible for financial aid for college.  Their SAT scores and community college grades validated the contents of their transcript and told each university that they were able to deal with that university's level of academics.  Those letters worked beautifully for both the private and state colleges  EXCEPT for UMass Amherst, and actually, UMass Amherst accepted my student to their engineering school and honours program.  As far as I could tell, financial aid would not have been a problem.  Their financial aid site and their admissions site differed.  The financial aid requirements were the normal please-send-us-your-approval-letters and fill the FAFSA form requirements that other colleges had.  It was only the admissions office that had the GED requirement.  And that has recently been changed so that a certain number of community college credits are included.  My son, had he gone, might not have had any problems attending without a GED. Nobody mentioned GEDs until I emailed admissions asking about that homeschoolers-must-have-a-GED-to-matriculate on their admissions site.  There was nothing in his acceptance letter about them.  It might be that nobody would ever have mentioned them.  We didn't try.  (He went to a homeschooling friendly place instead, for other reasons entirely.)

 

Trade schools could use the same math/reading/writing assessment test that community colleges use.  If I were a trade school, I would want to do this anyway, high school diploma or no, so I knew which students would need extra help with the academic piece to get them through.

 

Nan

Edited May 3, 2016 by Nan in Mass

[FaithManor]

Nan, I agree. Michigan is a zero paperwork, requirements state for home school students, but the down side is there is not a thing that can adequately distinguish them from the drop out group which is high. When students don't want to attend high school anymore, since there are no restrictions, no requirements here, parents often claim to home school while really doing nothing but allowing their teen to sleep all day and play video games though some do it as an excuse, particularly for boys, to have all day, unpaid help in the family business. Hate to say it, but that is also quite common.

 

On top of which, there are numerous large home school groups around the state that don't believe in high school educations for girls, and "homeschooling for high school" is another way of preventing them access to education. Sigh....

 

It isn't a problem for my college bound boys because they take the SAT/ACT's, do some DE, some online work, etc., and have 4-H recommendations, science fair accomplishments, and such. Plenty of outside verification that we pursued a high school level education. But for the not college bound student who is looking at apprenticeships and vo-tech it is a HUGE problem. A dear friend of ours had her dd's homeschool diploma printed with the word Homeschool on it and then signed by "mom and dad", and now she can't sit the state cosmetology exam because when she provided "proof" of graduating high school, the diploma was not recognized by the state licensing board. Our DD never had this problem with EMT school because they have their own entrance exam so if one passes it, one can get a waiver on the high school diploma thing, and technically due to DE and college credit towards her Bachelor's degree, she was considered a college student which made her qualified without a waiver. Dear friend is going to have to have her daughter sit the GED despite the fact that she completed math through algebra 2, three years of high school science plus tech center cosmetology coursework, plus four years of high school English and history, plus foreign language and fine arts, plus DE college writing and a business class which is way more education than what the GED tests for, and a 24 on the ACT thus making the GED moot in the grand scheme of things.

 

I suspect that if home schoolers had some sort of documentation requirements at the state level, this would be a non-issue.

 

As I said before, Michigan colleges are very friendly to home schooled students but I think that is because it is a self selecting group. Only the students who were pursuing college prep are applying so they have their ducks in a row in terms of other documentation, and of course, have completed the minimum requirements for entry or wouldn't be applying in the first place.

 

For dear friend it is a rather frustrating situation because the older daughter is a 4.0 student at Northern Michigan University Pre-Vet/Biology having been accepted to Michigan State University, and Central Michigan University during her senior year without any issues. But her daughter that wants a cosmetology license with an ACT score that would get her into a lot of tier 2 colleges and even some tier 1's, can't sit the licensing exam despite having successfully completed the coursework and having instructor recommendations without the GED.

 

There are a lot of students here under-served by the total lack of requirements/documentation system. I'm not for strict oversight of home schoolers because well, our PS's are just the pits here, and most of the State Board of Education's efforts should be directed at fixing this, but a little something such as even submitting course listings or scope and sequence each year to local school districts might make home school diplomas more acceptable to Vo-tech programs seeking to separate out drop out students.

[FaithManor]

Nan, I also agree that the entrance exams for Community College would be a good way for trade schools and licensing programs to determine readiness for their coursework, and yes, given that my local district hands out diplomas like candy at Halloween, it isn't a bad idea anyway likely lowering the drop out rate for these vo-tech programs when students are functionally and numeracy illiterate.

[razorbackmama]

I agree Nan and FaithManor.

 

I live in Colorado, where our requirements are minimal, but they are there. We have to submit a notice of intent annually and test/evaluate every other year and submit those results. Because of these laws, when it came time for my son to enlist in the Marine Corps, all I had to provide was a transcript and the letter I receive from our school district after I send in our NOI saying that we are homeschooling according to state law. The USMC viewed this letter as "accreditation," and I didn't have to do anything further. A friend of mine's son enlisted from Illinois, which has zero requirements, and she had to jump through a million hoops: transcript, course descriptions, texts used, etc.