Does anybody with a rising 5th grader *not* feel like they are ready for the Logic Stage?

[Chrysalis Academy]

It's funny, I've been off this sub-forum for awhile, because my 8th grader is starting high school, and my 4th grader wasn't a middle schooler.

 

But it hit me today that, as she is a rising 5th grader, - um, that's the Logic Stage! When my older dd was a rising 5th grader, I was all over "the middle grades" and the ramp-up in expectations and what it all means and what I needed to do with her.  Granted, I was a total newbie (we started homeschooling early in her 4th grade year) but I put such weight on the 5th grade transition.

 

When I look at my current rising 5th grader, I'm just not seeing it. She seems younger than her sister did at this age.  I know I demand less from her - partly because I'm homeschooling two, when her big sister was going into 5th I was only homeschooling the one.  She's also less compliant and harder to homeschool, and so the thought of pushing her to ramp up is . . . daunting.  But also she's just a very different kid. She wants to be doing, not sitting and reading and writing. She's way more hands-on, craves crafty projects, cooking, being in nature, the things that don't lend themselves as well to a more traditional academic path (I think??).

 

I'm really feeling like I need to do some soul-searching here. Am I ready to homeschool this 5th grader? Am I doing her justice? Are my changed expectations the result of recognizing she's a different person, and being a bit more relaxed myself - both good things - or am I slacking off with her? Not a good thing.

 

I find myself looking longingly at Oak Meadow, then reading that people find it light.  Then I look at the writing assignments in OM5, and I think, wow, that would be a stretch for her. I'm not demanding as much writing from her as her previously public schooled sister was doing at this age. I've kind of embraced the BW set of expectations, which are much looser at the younger ages, and I like that . . . But.  But, am I being groovily relaxed, or am I slacking off and not giving her the same rigorous level of prep as her sister got?  I honestly don't know. 

 

I'm so tired right now - April is the cruelest month, and I've been juggling a heavy workload, sick kids, a demanding theater schedule, starting 9th grade, and dd9 expressing a desire to go back to public school (purely for social reasons, once she realized what the demands of the school day schedule, plus homework, would be, she withdrew her request). But it really spun me out that she asked, and I've been questioning myself - can I do a good job homeschooling her? Do I need to do things really differently than I did with dd13, because she's so different? 

 

Do I even want to?  It makes me cry to type that, but I have to admit that it's in the back of my mind.  It's such a struggle to try and meet her needs. I'm so tired.  I don't think putting her in ps is a good solution either for her or for our family, but I am having such a hard time mustering up the energy to keep pushing through the end of this year, and when I think about next year, I just don't know which way to go - stay the course? Get a touchy-feeling creative boxed program? Unschool? Cry?

 

Anyway, thoughts, advice, or butt-kicking are all welcome, whatever you feel is appropriate.  But I am curious if anyone else has experience the sense, with a younger child/sibling, that they aren't where their older sibling was at the same age.  And I'm wondering if anyone found *themselves* feeling like taking a really different path with a second child, for whatever reason. And does anybody else feel like their rising 5th grader maybe isn't ready for a sudden step up in expectations between 4th and 5th grade?

 

Struggling, here. Be kind.  :)

Edited April 30, 2016 by Chrysalis Academy

[Tanaqui]

5th grade isn't middle school. Not around here. 5th grade is the last grade of elementary school.

 

With regards to writing in particular, I made an executive decision not to require any writing at all when we started homeschooling in the 6th grade (for the eldest) and 4th (youngest). School-school had completely ruined any interest in writing they had, and I said "Nope". I'd had enough trouble fighting them over writing assignments as homework.

 

A year later, they're not only willing but eager to write, so I'm sure I've done something right. And their writing isn't amazingly horrific or anything. I'm sure it won't harm your younger kiddo if you do less writing if you feel she's not up to that.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Chrysalis Academy]

Right, it's not really middle school, is it?  That's 6th grade here, too.  I guess I am cowed by The Logic Stage.  Which is supposed to begin in 5th grade.  I guess.

 

I edited my title to make a little more sense.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Chrysalis Academy

[Tress]

Starting with :grouphug:

 

But I am curious if anyone else has experience the sense, with a younger child/sibling, that they aren't where their older sibling was at the same age. And I'm wondering if anyone found *themselves* feeling like taking a really different path with a second child, for whatever reason. And does anybody else feel like their rising 5th grader maybe isn't ready for a sudden step up in expectations between 4th and 5th grade?

 

To answer your questions: yes, yes and yes. I'm in the same situation with my dd9.

 

I don't have a solution, but you do sound very, very tired and I think you need to get some rest before making decisions. From reading your posts all these years, I don't doubt that you are able to give both your dds an excellent education.

 

:grouphug:

[cintinative]

No real answers, but I can relate to what you are saying.  My oldest is entering 5th grade and as I looked at the recommendations in WTM for logic, history, etc. it was a struggle to not feel overwhelmed. I have to remind myself--a lot--that each new step will feel a bit scary.  Our first year homeschooling I was so scared.  Each year I get a little more confident, but the target keeps moving, so I can't rest on my laurels.  

 

Also at this point in the year I am generally burning out from homeschooling in general. I am ready for a break. The kids are ready for a break. This is not a good time for me to be making huge decisions about what we can or cannot handle. My best analogy is to ask someone who just finished the marathon if they would like to go lift weights.  Um . . . how about no?  

 

So my best advice--let yourself have a bit of a break for contemplation. Consider how God has provided in years past.  Consider all that your child HAS learned.  Consider how you have grown as a teacher and a person.  Remind yourself that your child is growing and that you don't know what she/he will be like in three months. Remind yourself that you are wise enough to know your own child and what he/she can handle.  You are her mom and you know her best. Don't let books tell you what your kid is like or what she should be like at a certain age. You know him/her best and what will challenge him/her but not cause burnout.

 

Ultimately we work for bigger things than just academics anyway. A friend asked her 12 year old daughter today what she wanted to be when she grew up.  She replied, "I'm not sure yet."  I said, "How about wise and virtuous?"  That's the goal right? Not completing that logic curriculum.  Wise and discerning kids.  

 

 

[SilverMoon]

I was like that with my second-born. She just wasn't there yet. Sure she'd enjoy the logic puzzles, but her maturity was not ready for three paragraph summaries and analytical thinking. She was very much still a little kid. By the end of logic stage she was very ready for high school though. :001_smile:  Now at the end of 10th grade she seems restless to be done with high school and off on the next great adventure. (Ventures and Civil Air Patrol are helping.) She was challenging to teach in elementary, late-bloomer in general, but she's a dream student now. Apparently it's the middle ground this child has a problem with. 

 

My current fifth grader by age though? Not in the slightest. This kid is academically aggressive and I can barely keep up. She's officially grade skipping to 7th next year (primarily for extracurricular activities), which will hopefully take some edge off. :ph34r:

[The Governess]

Yep. I can totally relate! Dd11 and dd9 are such radically different kids. The work that dd9 will do in 5th will be very similar to the work that dd11 did in 3rd. I have to remind myself all the time that dd11 is way ahead, rather than dd9 being way behind. Dd9 is crafty, creative, loves animals, and needs to move a lot. She is less organized and more of a free spirit. I have to be very careful about my expectations for her, and pay close attention to know if she is just having a bad attitude or if the work truly is too difficult. She's the type of child that will cry through a math assignment because it's "so hard" and then get every answer right. Frustrating, and dramatic.

 

I am treating fifth grade as another year of grammar stage. She is not ready for logic stage skills. I plan to use this year to shore up weaknesses and build her confidence in her basic abilities. "Teach the child in front of you" is my mantra with this one.

[freesia]

It's okay. She is a different child. My third child has been my slowest ramp up. He is very bright, but easily overwhelmed . I am amazed by his progress this year. He actually said, "You know, I think I've got this school thing figured out. I'm on top of it." That's huge for him. I have slowly, slowly ramped up over the course of the year--frog in boiling water style--and he's fine.

 

I just have to remember that for all my grand plans of next year.lol

 

Somebody on the high school forum a year or so ago reminded folks to keep a long term focus on goals. Where your child begins high school isn't where they'll end, so having the same expectation would lead to frustration. And wow that is true of my oldest( who by the way was barely writing entering fifth grade and writes very well now--accepted into AP English comp for 11th where he had to submit an essay.) the same long term view is true of middle school--maturity is different for different kids.

[freesia]

Right there with you. My oldest and youngest are similar, but my middle? completely different in every way. Sometimes I just don't know what to do with this kid. Farrar said in another thread, "I'd love to be like, I'm a failure as a teacher! Thank goodness I have a control child in this experiment who seems to be doing fine" Yep. Dd is doing just fine with the same teaching. It's not me. Ds10 is dh's mini-me. I blame him. :)

 

My oldest came from 5th grade ps where the drill prep for the writing exam. He was writing much much more than either of my two. But he really didn't like it. Using the more relaxed approach is scary when you start comparing. But do I want them to write a mindless paragraph about something they don't really care about just to say they can do it? Or do I want them to develop their writing through an actual interest? That's what I have to keep asking myself.

 

Homeschooling is a marathon where the goals keep changing. As long as I am meeting their needs and setting appropriate goals for them, I have to blind myself to what everyone else is doing (including siblings) and really try not to compare.

I was talking to a friend about ps writing. I taught first and second grade for nine years. I was able to get my school kids producing WAY more writing then I have ever been able to get my own kids producing earlier than fifth grade. Audience and peer pressure is everything. Has it made a difference by late elementary school ?? Not one bit. My older two are strong writers. My third is doing fine--probably grade level in essays-- but he wrote a 30 typed age book this year on his own time using really good vocabulary and sentence stucture and style. I was shocked. This child was not writing independent sentences until second grade.

[hepatica]

Honestly, I find the 5th grader as logic stage idea pretty absurd. I think it was more a way to divide 12 years into three neat sections than any reflection of where most 5th graders are. My oldest was ready for more analytical thinking about 6th grade, but she is dyslexic and  was not ready for heavy writing. She is in high school now, and doing great. 

 

My current 12yo is just really hitting logic stage skills now, and she will be a 7th grader next year (btw, 6th graders are still at the elementary school here, and middle school is 7th and 8th). I think we'll be doing WWS 1 next year, and it will be just right for her. She is also my very creative, artsy kid and loves the Bravewriter approach. So there might be a trend here. 

 

I, btw, would not say that one kind of kid is advanced and the other is just normal or average. My middle dd has qualities that my oldest did not have at this age. High level academics (i.e. graduate school level) require creativity as well and analytical skills. Analytical skills can only get you so far. You need to be able to add something new to the conversation. So, I don't see the more creative kids at any disadvantage academically in the long run. I think trying to meet some arbitrary standard of excellence for all kids is what wears us out as homeschoolers. You might find an entirely different approach is rejuvenating for you as well.

[Chrysalis Academy]

It's definitely the case that one of the reasons that I've been willing to be more relaxed with 2nd dd is experience.  The things all the experienced moms said - teach the child in front of you,meet them where they are at, keep your eye on the long-term goals, work hard on the skills in the proximal zone of development - are all, lo and behold, true!  ;)  I've now seen this with my older, so I realize I don't have to worry so much, try every different thing.  I'm ok with doing just one math program, just one thing for writing, I'm not trying to do all sorts of extras that don't really pay off if the kid isn't ready for them.  Those are all positives, results of experience.

 

Another thing I've been thinking about lately: I don't think my younger dd is more creative than my older dd.  She is just less complaint, more combative and head-butty with the world. Always has been.  Dd13 was always willing to go along with what I suggested - this is changing a little bit now, and I'm actually happy about that! But she has always spent her free time on creative, hands-on pursuits - when she was younger, creating elaborate stable and horse-world scenarios out of cardboard and found materials, sewing clothes for her dolls, making sock puppets, and now that she's older, writing stories, drawing, and teaching herself the guitar. She doesn't spend her free time reading Scientific American or taking apart toasters to see how they work!  I've always projected my more analytical/more nonfiction bent onto her, she's just more compliant than her sister so I haven't noticed the mismatch as much.

 

In a way, this last month, with busy work & theater schedules, sickness, and house stress has been good for us.  I really *have* relaxed more, the way I've always wanted to, and it's really working out quite well for the girls. Maybe I just need to trust that process of unclenching that is sort of happening despite me?  Maybe it's a good thing.

 

I do need to sleep for about a week.  That would probably improve my perspective.  For various reasons that hasn't been happening well lately.  But I think a transition is in sight.

[Roadrunner]

..

Edited May 4, 2016 by Roadrunner

[redsquirrel]

I feel like 5th grade is a transition year. It isn't like a kid just BLAM is in the logic stage..well, I guess some are, but I think most kids enter it slowly and asynchronously (is that a word?).  I think they make leaps forward and then edge back, only to run forward again. Over the course of 5th and 6th grade they mostly develop into the logic stage, grow into it. And some kids need a firm nudge by the time they are halfway into 7th grade.

 

And learning by doing is exactly perfect for the logic stage. Let her do, let her move and try and make visual representations of things.  This is exactly what she should be doing!  Make that history timeline. Do those hands on science experiments. Don't parrot back grammar definitions, diagram the sentences to see the how and the why of the language. We do a lot of cooking for history, I know I should use it for science but we don't. Let her draw a comic book of the plot of a book she just read for literature.

 

You don't have to increase expectations so much as change your approach just a bit. You are teaching different skills and providing plenty of scaffolding along the way. Do things together and figure them out. Start to give her a little bit of control over what she does.  Give her a choice between two books to read for history, ask her if she wants to do earth science this year or life science. Just some small choices, as long as you are comfortable with either choice.

 

It's the same thing with the high school years. I had a huge 8th grade panic b/c my kid 'wasn't ready' for high school. He wasn't doing high school level work, this was going to be a disaster.  It was a parent here, who had several teenagers, who reminded me that 8th graders in general are not doing high school level work because they are only 8th graders. They spend most of 9th grade learning how to do just that...and that is normal. It is expected and we need to let them do it.

 

So, it's not surprising that your current 4th grader doesn't look like she is ready for logic stage work. It's something she will transition into over next year and maybe even a good chunk of the next. And that's ok. Meet her were she is and move at her pace. There is no need to push her harder than she is ready. And don't be surprised if by the end of next year she showing you some new skills and a new level of maturity.

[RootAnn]

I think kids are all over the board & some enter the logic stage earlier & some later.

 

My kids are late bloomers in general, except for one "normal" developing kid. That's my dd#3, just a little older than your Morgan. It seems like she's always been a tag-along to dd#2 (very late bloomer / artsy / dreamer / sensitive kid). They do almost the same school stuff every year despite the 2 1/2 yr age difference.

 

Next year, she (and dd#2) will be doing the "logic stage" history & science that I had dd#1 doing in 5th grade and will probably do it better. But, dd#2 has only just been ready to do logic stage stuff THIS year (7th by age).

 

So, really, each kid is so different and that's why you are doing a great job as a homeschooling parent. You recognize the differences & change your plans to reach & challenge the child in front of you. In some of our cases, we change our plans since the child in front of us challenges us. My kids have all been at different points at a certain age:  one was writing fluent cursive at 5 while my ds#1 is still struggling to remember how to make his letters at 8! One wasn't reading fluently until almost 10. Once you get through two completely different kids, it is easier to accept nature vs. nurture differences and realize that if you gave them the exact same treatment, you would be underserving one of them and possibly mistreating the other! 

 

I'll admit that dd#1 is an exhausting child to parent & homeschool. (DS#1, while supersweet & wonderful now, has some of the same personality and will probably be even tougher when he hits his teens.) She has made me question myself more than once. It helps me as a parent to have the non-compliant kid go first in birth order because I am so grateful for it being a little easier with another kid later on. By the time I had my first go-with-the-flow kid who actually learned to read on schedule, I was able to be so much more thankful!

 

I personally wouldn't dwell too long on the must-step-up-the-workload just because of a certain age/grade level expectation. I can almost guarantee that while Morgan will be a different child with different interests & strengths by the end of high school than Shannon, they will both have done incredible things by then & be set up to succeed in life because of what you've sacrificed to give them. 

[Targhee]

My older did not hit logic stage at 5th grade. My DS has now half way through 5th grade. It's so individual.

 

Their 5th grades were very different. I think that's why we homeschool, too - to give them each an individualized foundational education. So yes, you probably need to do it differently than your older DD, and yes I bet you can do it ;-)

Edited May 1, 2016 by Targhee

[Targhee]

Adding on to that, I think you're already in a good position because you recognize there is a difference and that you need to act accordingly. No use pushing her into older sister's mold, right? But many people have tried that and lost lots of ground,

 

How about inventorying her learning style and interests, and working from there? Don't ramp up expectations until she's had the cognitive growth spurt into logic stage, just have a gradual uptick in expectations.

 

With my DS who is very willful giving him some say on his studies goes a long way towards compliance in the areas I deem non-negotiable.

[SkateLeft]

I went through those same feelings with my younger daughter! I even went through periodic freak outs where I'd ordered a box curriculum (like OM and Calvert) just so I could be sure she was working at grade level. In the end though, she was fine. I was more relaxed, she moved at more of a measured pace, but she still got to the same place in the end. I'm graduating her on May 13th.

 

I still deal with those worries. Last week, I pulled out my older kids' 4th grade portfolios to compare and realized that my youngest isn't doing anywhere near the same level of work. He's the baby, so I think I let him off too easy sometimes.

 

And nope. My 5th grader isn't in the logic stage yet. It's just a developmental stage. Some kids will get there sooner and some will get there later. That's okay. :D

Edited May 1, 2016 by ghostwheel

[8filltheheart]

I agree with hepatica and Sadie.

 

I never look at grammar, logic, and rhetoric as stages equated to ages bc nothing in my life with my kids confirms that relationship. My kids are all over the place with what they accomplish when. It is completely irrelevant what they do compared to each other and other kids in general. It doesn't change a thing about who they are and what they are individually capable of doing.

 

My current 4th grader will never be her 11th grade sister or her college age brother. She is very childish in her thinking. Her 6 yo sister is beyond her in some areas of maturity. Whatever. She is who she is. :) we just go with her flow.

 

Don't stress about it. Don't compare. Just meet her where she is. (((Hugs)))

[Critterfixer]

:grouphug: And if I may make a suggestion, take some time to not think about it. Often I find that when I am trying to juggle a lot between work, house and other concerns, I will get myself in a loop of thought that is completely non-productive and makes me anxious. You've got a whole summer coming up. Use the time to relax as much as you can. Creativity blooms when you are relaxed. Solutions present themselves to an open mind. All that good jazz.

 

[Minerva]

Just popping by to commiserate. 

 

I have a rising 5th grader and fluctuate wildly between feeling like we are in the groove and feeling like she is not challenged. This year I was much more relaxed than in previous years, really trying to trust that what my dd is doing outside of our school day is worthwhile, educational and just as important as the work she is doing in class. I tried to keep our academic day to a minimum because she is good at filling her time with good stuff outside of class. She said it was her best year ever, and I definitely felt like our trajectory was headed in the right direction with academics, but still I find myself feeling nervous or unsatisfied with our plans for next year. 

 

I really appreciate this thread, especially those of you who have BTDT and taken the time to come reassure. 

[texasmama]

I have a rising 5th grader, and she is a flighty, artsy, extremely social little kid.  Not a tween at all.  To meet her social and creative needs, I am enrolling her in two different co-op type situations next year which will take up two days of our week.  These classes and days will be filled with art, drama, singing, book clubs, fun US state study, etc.  The only thing remotely "academic" is the 50 state study.  One day, she will be there for about 5 hours and will take her lunch, change classes and wear an ID badge.  It is all the schooly experience she craves.  She will cram most of her typical academic work into the other three days.  She will do math 4-5 days a week but that will be the only subject that is done every day.  All the rest will be three days a week.  She is a voracious reader, and I hand her classics often.  

 

She will not always have this opportunity.  We have this one last shot to finish out her childhood with a fun-filled, joyous, interest-driven experience.  I think it will be fabulous for her and me, too.

[ScoutTN]

Great thread!

 

My Dd is finishing 5th grade and just now beginning to be a logic stage student. She is still very much a little girl in so many ways. I thought 5th would be a transition year for her, but it really hasn't been. She has become much more independent and thoughtful, but is just beginning to show middle school thinking in her work and conversation. 

 

I do think that designating 5th grade as logic stage is just to get three even blocks for a history rotation. Though my oldest is only finishing 5th and about to be 11, I have worked with late elementary and middle school students in my work for 30 years and I definitely agree with the pp about asynchronous development and meeting each kid where she is. Around here many PS have 5th graders in middle school, but that is purely demographics and and logistics, and has nothing to do with good education or child development. 

 

My Ds is totally different than Dd and MUCH harder to homeschool. Not advanced academically, extroverted off the scale, much more of a hands-on learner, emotionally and socially immature. Comparing them in my mind is a trap that leaves me discouraged and fearful. I have to work hard sometimes to remember not to let arbitrary standards skew my evaluation of his progress. I have to be purposeful about rejoicing in the freedom to educate him in his own path rather than complain that he can't just follow in Dd's footsteps. 

 

I have read many of your posts, Rose, and I think you are doing a fabulous job with your girls! Don't feel pressured to make sweeping changes at a low point. Wait until you are more rested and have a more balanced perspective. 

 

 

 

[Peaceful Isle]

My almost 5th grader seems sooo much younger than his two sisters before him. Not sure why. Maybe because he was the baby of the family for five years before his brother came into this world :p

 

I'm really trying to up his game this year to prepare him for harder work next year.

[Arcadia]

My current 5th and 6th grader boys are all over the shop as usual.  I am lazy enough to follow PS bumps in expectation so jump in 3rd, 6th and 9th rather than 5th and 9th.

When I was a school kid, the bump was in 4th, 7th. 9th and 11th.   

 

My DS10 lacks the executive function skills that DS11 has. DS11 from a young age could meet deadlines with one or two reminders.  I have to tomato stake DS10 or nothing gets done.  So despite similar academic strengths, the approach is different. None of mine are complaint :lol:

 

Probably having a rising 9th grader add to your stress level.  I'm keeping better records for my oldest next year for 7th grade since math and LOTE can count for a-g requirements.