Living off the land is illegal even if it's your own land?

[Bluegoat]

But the high cost of housing does not justify foregoing basic sanitation.  If one truly can't afford to put in a septic tank, hook up the sewer, or get a variance, then one has gotten over his head in housing costs.  If one can't afford what it takes to make a 2-acre property habitable, one does not live on a 2-acre property within city limits.

 

It seems this guy has a pretty nice place compared to many people.  But he expects to be exempt from the cost of plumbing - a cost even the poorest city dwellers have to pony up?  Sorry, no sympathy there.

 

FTR my sister lives in a trailer and has a septic tank on some acreage.  I don't think the whole cost of her home was much more than what someone quoted above for a septic system.  So I dunno.  There probably are affordable options.  Seems this guy really just doesn't like being told what to do - and who does like it - but in a city, we can't pretend that what we do with our body wastes is nobody else's business.

 

Oh, I agree this guys main issue seems to be mainly with getting permissions.  Though I wouldn't assume his place is expensive.  But composting toilets actually cost a lot less than a septic system, a good one for a single person is much less money.

 

But in larger terms, it can easily become a problem, even if it is basic.  When I've lived in rural areas many people have lived there for years, owned or had inherited homes.  All of a sudden their older system needs replacing and the regulations are much more expensive now.  And they just don't have the money.

 

The converse of that is my ILs place.  They have septic and a well, but the city now wants to put in sewer and water.  They are going to be expected to pay something like $20,000 if it goes through.  The developers want it because the area has ocean frontage and they can make a bundle by subdividing lots.  But many of the residents don't have that money available.

[BlsdMama]

Part of me suspects there may be other things going on, and this is the way "they" can get to him.

 

Most of the townships I've researched in my area require a septic system in order to issue a CO, but a few small areas do allow for a "proper" composting toilet.

 

 

But, here's the rub, if you can't "get" them legitimately, let's say they are "growers" or whatever is being insinuated... There is still NO freaking way that it's okay to "get" them another way.

 

This is ridiculous.  His land,  his home, absolutely no right to mandate city utilities.

[BlsdMama]

I started whining years ago when I found I needed a permit to fix my own roof.  Why should you need to buy a permit to fix your own house?

 

I am not surprised they have minimum requirements for living spaces.  Some of the requirements may be stupid, but others maybe not.  If you let one person do this, you have to ask, would it be a problem if everyone did it?  Also maybe they have seen a lot of cases of child neglect or similar due to not having modern facilities.  We hear about that in the news from time to time.

 

 

They had it in Oregon.  It's insane.  Prohibited sleeping spaces per people living in the home.  It was incredibly difficult for us to find a house to rent.  And, okay, so we get it... renting, fire hazards, whatever... But (and I did not verify this) it also applies to OWNERSHIP.  So, for example a family our size can't live in a 4 bedroom home.  Mmhhm?  Really?  That's dangerous?

[eternalsummer]

It's a serious financial burden and many people don't have the money for it when they need it.  That is a huge chunk of change. People can't get more money if wages don't go up. (And it isn't just about ownership, in rental properties these costs get passed down.)

 

Around here even towns are increasingly having trouble meeting the costs of sewage treatment because of a combination of factors: increasing regulations, ageing infrastructure, loss of population, and people unwilling to pay more taxes.

 

This is true about the sewage situation; the same thing was an issue when we lived in KC.  They just couldn't convince people to vote on high enough taxes to fix the sewage system and water pipes; the water company keeps raising rates but it isn't enough.

[Bluegoat]

This is true about the sewage situation; the same thing was an issue when we lived in KC.  They just couldn't convince people to vote on high enough taxes to fix the sewage system and water pipes; the water company keeps raising rates but it isn't enough.

 

This is the kind of situation where anti-tax talk really annoys me.  It can be truthful sometimes to say that people really can't afford it, and that is a serious problem.  But often it seems to be "but it will kill business, government can't have our money they will misspend."

 

And then you can't afford sewage treatment or your overpasses start falling down.

[creekland]

This is ridiculous.  His land,  his home, absolutely no right to mandate city utilities.

 

But every right to require a variance if not fitting in with the rules.  I doubt there's a court around that would say "Your land, your complete freedom," because what we do with our land does, indeed, affect our neighbors and our freedom ends when it affects others.  Consider my chicken farm example.  Would you want it - without any safety regs - next to you?

 

There have been court cases around here where folks had to give up their own wells when city water came through.  I'll freely admit I disagree with that decision, but the courts decided the greater good (split costs among all residents of the city system) was more important than individual freedom of water supply. Some areas had systems that were failing and needed city water, but the courts decided all in that area had to give up their wells (have them capped) and pay their share (not cheap) to install city water, then pay the quarterly bills to pay for that water.

 

I was glad we didn't live in that area (it's around us).  I like our well and septic more than I want bills for city water/sewer - esp the cost of putting them in.  I'm pretty sure we're far enough back into rural land to not have to worry, but I guess one never knows.

[Carrie12345]

But, here's the rub, if you can't "get" them legitimately, let's say they are "growers" or whatever is being insinuated... There is still NO freaking way that it's okay to "get" them another way.

 

This is ridiculous.  His land,  his home, absolutely no right to mandate city utilities.

 

I'm not saying it's right or good to find back doors in all cases or in this specific case, but I'm not going to pretend it should never been done in any case.  I'm just saying I don't believe we know the whole story from either party.

 

My understanding is that they're not mandating city utilities.

[Murphy101]

Oh, I agree this guys main issue seems to be mainly with getting permissions. Though I wouldn't assume his place is expensive. But composting toilets actually cost a lot less than a septic system, a good one for a single person is much less money.

 

But in larger terms, it can easily become a problem, even if it is basic. When I've lived in rural areas many people have lived there for years, owned or had inherited homes. All of a sudden their older system needs replacing and the regulations are much more expensive now. And they just don't have the money.

 

The converse of that is my ILs place. They have septic and a well, but the city now wants to put in sewer and water. They are going to be expected to pay something like $20,000 if it goes through. The developers want it because the area has ocean frontage and they can make a bundle by subdividing lots. But many of the residents don't have that money available.

The end plan in those situations is almost always to force those people off their land. They'll have to sell or risk their land being confiscated as "condemned" bc they couldn't afford to update to the new regulations. It happens a lot here. It's not pretty. Makes me really angry.

 

ETA: and not all these places started "in the city". In the last ten years I know of four small towns in our surrounding area that were annexed into a nearby the major nearby city even though the city couldn't get a single vote from anyone in that town to want to be annexed. Immediately their property value supposedly went up, but they also had to pay much higher taxes and comply with a slew of new requirements, none of which were very cheap. Within 2 years nearly everyone had to sell for some reason or another.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

This is the kind of situation where anti-tax talk really annoys me. It can be truthful sometimes to say that people really can't afford it, and that is a serious problem. But often it seems to be "but it will kill business, government can't have our money they will misspend."

 

And then you can't afford sewage treatment or your overpasses start falling down.

I don't know anyone who think making sure wate and sewage is taken care of will kill business.

 

Our county water and sewage is deplorable. It's forever in bandaid mode. I wish they would open up the plant to more public view (I had to get special permission to go about 15 years ago and I have no reason to expect it's improved.) bc seriously, you'd think twice about drinking from a tap if you saw it.

 

But frankly the leadership, never seems to matter who it is at the time, as ruined any trust from the community. Repeatedly they have raised taxes to fix infrastructure issues and repeatedly the money never seemed to go to that. Between that history and people already functioning in the red, the chances of passing new taxes is almost nil.

[Bluegoat]

I don't know anyone who think making sure wate and sewage is taken care of will kill business.

 

Our county water and sewage is deplorable. It's forever in bandaid mode. I wish they would open up the plant to more public view (I had to get special permission to go about 15 years ago and I have no reason to expect it's improved.) bc seriously, you'd think twice about drinking from a tap if you saw it.

 

But frankly the leadership, never seems to matter who it is at the time, as ruined any trust from the community. Repeatedly they have raised taxes to fix infrastructure issues and repeatedly the money never seemed to go to that. Between that history and people already functioning in the red, the chances of passing new taxes is almost nil.

 

They think higher taxes will kill business.  For some reason they don't make the connection with taxes actually providing necessary services.

[Lady Florida.]

No one is preventing this guy from fulfilling his dream to live off-grid in a mobile home with uninspected, self-installed electrical and plumbing systems. There are plenty of places in this country, probably even within a few miles of where he is now, that would allow him to do that. Heck, he could buy a piece of land next to the Nauglers and live in an uninsulated shed on the banks of a filthy pond, with no electricity or clean water source, and a 5 gallon bucket for a toilet, just like they do. But don't set up your mobile home in a city that doesn't allow mobile homes, ignore all permit and inspection laws, refuse to apply for variances, and then complain that your "freedoms" have been taken away. "Freedom" doesn't mean the laws don't apply to you.

 

:iagree: Without going back through the thread, I believe in one of the articles justasque quoted, the City of Huntsville said basically that same thing. They said it's not illegal to live off the grid or live green as long as certain rules are followed and that they have citizens who sell their power back to the power company.

 

Oh dear lord, you're serious.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation

 

Yes, I think she is. That's an actual belief right up there with chemtrails. It makes me want to post a link to a Weird Al song. .

 

 

 

 

Well, there are the firefighters who would be risking their lives to put it out before it had an opportunity to spread off of his property. Because, well, fire left unchecked will continue to burn. Yeah, just the firefighters lives. That's all.  :svengo:

 

Yeah, we'd kind of like to keep my stepson alive and well. His wife and sons would like that too, I'm sure. 

[Ausmumof3]

I'm too brain dead to go searching, but there actually are studies on it.

 

In places where they have only been able to use raw wood or animal poop fuel, not only does it decimate their landscapes bc they always burn faster than the wood regrows and pollute the air, it causes many to die slow and painful deaths at a young age due to respiratory illnesses.

 

The introduction of better ovens and cleaner fuels not only improved their health, it allowed time for the landscape to heal.

In terms of actual emissions a proper combustion wood fire isn't actually too bad, or at least that's what the energy auditor that did our house told me.

 

It also doesn't include the fact that wood fires often also function as clothes driers and cooking as well so minimising over all power consumption.

 

However with dense population and number of houses in the city the smoke concentration would be pretty crazy.

[Ausmumof3]

http://www.environment.gov.au/resource/woodheaters-and-woodsmoke

 

Link with info on correct burning technique for wood fires.

[Reefgazer]

I agree with all of this, except in the cases of proper sewage disposal.  If they don't have adequate facilities, it can be harmful if they pollute waterways.  But I have no idea if that is the case here.

My opinion is that Zoning Boards have WAY too much power! But the days of "my land, my rights" seem to be disappearing into another era. Now it's more like, "pay your taxes and shut up."  I get HOA's because you can choose if you want to live within one or not, but I think the way these boards wield their power can be nauseating and it's all about money. If I want to live on my property without city utilities they shouldn't care. But they're going to give someone like this guy a hassle meanwhile they roll out the red carpet for a corporation like Walkmart or whoever to come in- here- let us give you an abatement! Seriously jacked up.