Painful Parent- Adult Child Religious Conflict more widespread today?

[monstermama]

That raises another interesting question.

Does standing up for your child in this situation equate to approving of homosexuality? Can one disapprove of homosexuality while still standing up for his child?  What would  either position look like?

 

I think yes it is possible, but then I know my kids have done and chosen things I really strenuously objected to, but I still loved them.  Those are two entirely different concepts to me and one does not affect the other.

 

 

But would a parent be wrong for making his opinion known?  Say adult child is engaged in a relationship with someone who is already married? 

 

If the parent objects strenuously, and the kid knows it is wrong according to his ingrained faith, he will still resist the parent and state that this particular case is different, of course, and that no one understands unless he is in it. 

 

Of course it is more likely that the kid will just hide it.  But even hiding it shows knowledge that it is wrong, or he wouldn't hide it. 

 

 

 

I'm trying to multi quote and doing it poorly - these were two separate posts.  I think the crux of this comes down to whether or not someone believes that being gay is a choice.  If you do, then comparing it to an adult choosing to have an affair against the faith that they were taught and brought up in is a valid comparison.  If you believe, instead, that a person is born gay, than the comparison doesn't work.  It would be like saying that a person couldn't be Christian because they're not white.  I think that makes this issue particularly hard - if one party believes it is a choice and the other doesn't, then I'm not sure how you can find common ground, other than to respectfully disagree.

[SparklyUnicorn]

As a person who is thinking that one topic can move pretty quickly into related topics?

 

Not exactly. 

 

I guess I don't have to pick sides.  But some people say I do.

[TranquilMind]

And sometimes standing up for our kids might mean NOT supporting every single thing they do or want to do because we believe we are protecting them from making very bad decisions.

 

(homosexuality isn't one of those things for me, but other things yes...other things that some people might not agree with me on)

 

You raise another interesting idea. 

 

 

It seems as if only on this particular issue of homosexuality is one practically required to agree with the child and what he does to be seen as supportive.

 

 

In all other sorts of things one might do that are clearly wrong in the faith, it's fine to go ahead and tell them to knock it off because it's wrong and what the heck are they doing. 

 

Why is that?  Who decided that? 

[TranquilMind]

I'm trying to multi quote and doing it poorly - these were two separate posts.  I think the crux of this comes down to whether or not someone believes that being gay is a choice.  If you do, then comparing it to an adult choosing to have an affair against the faith that they were taught and brought up in is a valid comparison.  If you believe, instead, that a person is born gay, than the comparison doesn't work.  It would be like saying that a person couldn't be Christian because they're not white.  I think that makes this issue particularly hard - if one party believes it is a choice and the other doesn't, then I'm not sure how you can find common ground, other than to respectfully disagree.

 

See, I see you conflating two things here. 

 

Even the Catholic Church states that it may not be a choice to have the attractions but it is a choice to act on them. 

 

So in that way, it indeed is a choice, as is the choice to engage in relations with a married person.

 

Of course, even the one involved with the married person would say that you just don't understand how strong this attraction was and how he couldn't help it and how it must not be wrong because it feels so right.  God would "want him to be happy" and if his current marriage doesn't make him happy, oh well. 

 

Or maybe I've just worked in offices where it's like Mad Men all the time....

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

Given that one side wants to deny LBGTIQ people everything from human dignity to human and legal rights, sitting on the fence seems like an unattractive proposition to me.

 

Who on earth is denying anyone anything?  Last I heard, it's been legal to do whatever you want with whomever you want for quite a long time.  Pretty much always, if you didn't want the piece of paper, and certainly even if you do now. 

 

[Scarlett]

Given that one side wants to deny LBGTIQ people everything from human dignity to human and legal rights, sitting on the fence seems like an unattractive proposition to me.

How about the side that says I believe it is wrong. Does stating that deny them human dignity?

[SparklyUnicorn]

You raise another interesting idea. 

 

 

It seems as if only on this particular issue of homosexuality is one practically required to agree with the child and what he does to be seen as supportive.

 

 

In all other sorts of things one might do that are clearly wrong in the faith, it's fine to go ahead and tell them to knock it off because it's wrong and what the heck are they doing. 

Why is that?  Who decided that? 

 

That's a big reason why I'm in the middle I think.  I might not agree with you on everything, but I understand being in the position of being told I'm wrong for what I feel strongly about.  And my beliefs aren't out of hatred or that I'm stupid.

[TranquilMind]

Gay means action as much as hetero means action.

 

Probably at some point, but not necessarily right now.

This is true.

[Joker]

An affair greatly hurts the other spouses and any children.

 

My single dd choosing to date another single girl isn't breaking up a marriage or hurting children.

 

They are very different things.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Given that one side wants to deny LBGTIQ people everything from human dignity, reducing their identities to fashion or fad, to human and legal rights, sitting on the fence seems like an unattractive proposition to me.

 

If this was in part directed at me, that is not what I want. 

 

You know enough about me to know it's not that simple. Whether you agree with me or not, at least give me some damn credit.  Asking questions and admitting that I don't understand does not make me an a-hole.  You aren't going to get me off the fence by making cruel comments about me supposedly being a heartless idiotic jerk.

[Daria]

Cycling way back, am I the only one who has no trouble imagining 1/2 a classroom of 3rd graders announcing that they were gay or bi or trans?

 

Many many people have very poor understanding of those concepts.  I can absolutely imagine a teacher telling her class that "Trans is when you wish you were a different gender", and getting a ton of "that's me!"  I know when I was in third grade, I sometimes wished I was a boy.  Peeing standing up looked like fun, and I wanted to be a doctor and only knew male doctors.  Plus my dad used to pay my brother to wash the car ('cause that's a "boy chore"), whereas my mom made me do the dishes for free.  

But if you'd given me an accurate description of what it meant to be trans, then I would have recognized that it wasn't me.  I might have wished I was a boy, but I knew for sure that I was a boy.

 

Similarly, I think that explaining sexual orientation to 8 year olds is tricky, because most people explain it in terms of attraction, and little kids don't have a great understanding of that.  Is it the same as "liking" someone?  Because I like James, he's my best friend!  Is it the same as wanting to marry someone and live with them?  Because I think Molly would be a lot of fun to live with, and then she could do the girl chores and maybe I'd finally get to mow the lawn?  

 

So, yes, I can imagine plenty of 8 year olds saying "me too!" in that circumstance.  Especially if they're growing up in a culture where being gay or bi or trans is accepted.

[Joker]

Who on earth is denying anyone anything? Last I heard, it's been legal to do whatever you want with whomever you want for quite a long time. Pretty much always, if you didn't want the piece of paper, and certainly even if you do now.

 

Seriously! Have you not seen the hatred right now over bathrooms. The people stating they will beat up, or worse, a transgendered woman if she dares to enter the same bathroom as their daughters/wives/etc?

[Scarlett]

This is the thing I don't understand. I hear 'we're all sinners'. OK, well if you are a sinner, focus on your own sin, don't be disavowing a child for being no better, no worse than you are.

We are talking about a deliberate action which goes against what we believe to be a sin.

 

Think of it like this.....a man has to much to drink while out of town for business and had a ONS. While horrible...and very very wrong....it is different from the man who leaves his wife for a younger woman. It takes a to of thought and planning and ongoing decision to leave a marriage and move in with your affair partner.

[Scarlett]

Actually. I have very little problem with what you believe and state because so far as I remember, you are one of those people who don't insist on your religious beliefs being the law of the land ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember you talking about not voting on this issue ?

 

I have a couple of friends who believe as you do. I don't think their belief automatically denies my dd her dignity. There are actions they could take which would, however.

 

A quiet personal belief is less of a threat to dignity than many things I can think of, although I do feel that those beliefs can be problematic.

Well good. And trust me my beliefs are MUCH more vocal on here than IRL.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Cycling way back, am I the only one who has no trouble imagining 1/2 a classroom of 3rd graders announcing that they were gay or bi or trans?

 

Many many people have very poor understanding of those concepts.  I can absolutely imagine a teacher telling her class that "Trans is when you wish you were a different gender", and getting a ton of "that's me!"  I know when I was in third grade, I sometimes wished I was a boy.  Peeing standing up looked like fun, and I wanted to be a doctor and only knew male doctors.  Plus my dad used to pay my brother to wash the car ('cause that's a "boy chore"), whereas my mom made me do the dishes for free.  

 

But if you'd given me an accurate description of what it meant to be trans, then I would have recognized that it wasn't me.  I might have wished I was a boy, but I knew for sure that I was a boy.

 

Similarly, I think that explaining sexual orientation to 8 year olds is tricky, because most people explain it in terms of attraction, and little kids don't have a great understanding of that.  Is it the same as "liking" someone?  Because I like James, he's my best friend!  Is it the same as wanting to marry someone and live with them?  Because I think Molly would be a lot of fun to live with, and then she could do the girl chores and maybe I'd finally get to mow the lawn?  

 

So, yes, I can imagine plenty of 8 year olds saying "me too!" in that circumstance.  Especially if they're growing up in a culture where being gay or bi or trans is accepted.

 

Yeah there are some interesting educational programs that have been developed for young children that I think are kinda nuts.  I think it's good to try to talk to people about this, but sometimes I don't know what some people were thinking.  For example there is one with penguins and they talk to their baby penguin and say I don't know what you are "a girl or boy" but I live you just the same.  Uhhh...what?  I don't understand how this is helpful. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

. I don't agree with occupying some hazy middle ground. Not yet.

 

yes, I think I do understand this

[Scarlett]

I have only empathy and experience with the whole affair thing. You are not going to find me justifying the cruelty of an affair in any way, shape or form.

 

Still, am I any less of a sinner than my dh ? I probably feel that way - I do feel that way! - but am I ? Am I really ?

Deliberate actions are more serious than missteps.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Deliberate actions are more serious than missteps.

 

but is there anything deliberate about being gay?

 

is there anything we can call a misstep with being gay?

 

There isn't any evidence that that is the case.  Time and again it has been shown that gay people can't be changed.  I suppose you might manage to somehow convince one to not act on it, but I think that's rather cruel and selfish.

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Moses was married to an Ethiopian woman.  That's a "drop-mike"moment scripturally on that issue. 

For you, perhaps. It seems to me that a great many patriarchs had multiple wives, does this mean you also condone polygyny?

[mamiof5]

That's so weird. It would have so NOT been the "cool thing" in my youth. We'd have jumped off buildings before admitting stuff like that, I think. There was one guy in my high school, but nothing overt was ever said by anyone or to anyone, and though he was rather feminine, it was just not in our consciousness in those days in my small town. It just was not a topic ever discussed; you really kept your business to yourself, whatever you were doing and with whom. I only knew about him because he died of AIDS in the 80's and I saw the obituary with a partner listed. I am pretty sure I never even heard the word until I was out of high school, archaic as that sounds today.

 

I have no idea why such a discussion would arise in such a young age group, but I do suspect that some of the kids just agreed because their friends did and have no idea of what they are really saying. Or maybe they do.

 

Same here, when I grew up sexual orientation was nobody's business. Dd saw plenty in highschool, gals and guys, sometimes they would blurt it out in the middle of a class, spread the word at lunch etc, but shortly after would take it back. In many cases she truly couldn't tell if they were wanting to get attention, cause drama or what? But this were highschool kids. The idea of this topic in a 3rd grade class just revolves my stomach

[justasque]

All right.  Well I am talking about homosexual behavior and the Church's current position on that, because it does very much address the behavior. 

It sounds as if your daughter is at variance with Church teachings on engaging in the behavior part (if current, not sure...haven't checked on anything in this vein recently). 

 

If you are Catholic yourselves, how do you feel about that?  Do you feel any dissonance between what your faith teaches and what your daughter may ultimately choose to do?  Or do you figure that is just between she and God and just leave it alone there with no sense of involvement/responsibility?  Just curious if you don't mean sharing.   But maybe you aren't Catholic so it is a nonissue?

 

Catholics also feel very strongly about exercising one's conscience, which means that they don't expect everyone to be in lockstep.  Conscience is not something to use as an excuse to behave in a selfish, hurtful way, or something to justify a whim.  It is expected to be used thoughtfully and prayerfully.    

 

Well, the similarity (to at least certain groups of Christians) is that either is a situation of sexual activity being inappropriate outside of Biblical marriage.   So that is the point there. 

 

If you reject Biblical marriage as the extent of legitimate marriage, then of course, you are correct in that they are not the same. 

 

Again, if we're talking about teens, they are often not sexually active and not married (civil or religious).   Same-sex attraction is different than same-sex activity.  That distinction is very important to some folks, especially some gay Christians.

 

Well I certainly apologize then because I still have the tendency to think gay means action. I have to remind myself it now means feelings as well.

 

So I am cautiously wondering how you can be Catholic and support your dd dating in a homosexual context.

 

Yes, I think you will understand others much better if you focus on "feelings" rather than "action".

 

You raise another interesting idea. 

 

 

It seems as if only on this particular issue of homosexuality is one practically required to agree with the child and what he does to be seen as supportive.

 

 

In all other sorts of things one might do that are clearly wrong in the faith, it's fine to go ahead and tell them to knock it off because it's wrong and what the heck are they doing. 

Why is that?  Who decided that? 

 

Again, action does not equal attraction.  

And there is a long, long history of the mistreatment of gay folks that makes non-supportive treatment a sensitive topic.

However, many parents are quite happy talking about traditional values like fidelity, chastity before marriage, and so on, to their gay kids, and their words are much more likely to be heard if the child's attraction is not seen as sinful and the child is loved and respected.

[scoutingmom]

I don't believe that either, but I was just relaying what the teacher said. I found it interesting for sure. They were SO YOUNG, I was kind of shocked too.

 

Haven't read the 19 pages of comments. But I think it is because they are so young. They either don't understand what is being asked, or are firmly in the "the other gender has cooties" stage. At least, when I was a kid, most kids didn't generally like kids of the oppisite sex that much from about age 7 or 8 to about age 10 or 11....

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[MistyMountain]

I did not read the responses. The issue of kids coming out is not new at all. I think since it is out in the open more and more acceptable to a lot of people more kids are out and even religious people know that not everyone will condemn them like in the past. This is not a bad thing. Not all religious people have a problem with same sex relationships. Many religious people do not believe the scriptures and passages that are brought up are condeming homosexuality when you look at the context or time period it is referencing. Religious people can also look at all the scientific and psychological information out there on the topic and see that people who are attracted to the same sex are not making a choice about it and so they accept their children based on that. There are gay people that still are religious. Some are accepted and others are not. If a church is completely unaccepting then they will lose their gay followers. I would not worry about what kids in one 3rd grade class said. They have not even hit puberty yet and a lot of them are in that stage where they like friendships with their own sex.

 

The issue of kids not following in religious traditions is different. The general trend for a while has been for young people to not stay in the religion they were brought up in. Over time less people do attend church. A lot of kids do grow up and become less religious. Some non religious people can become religious too though. Kids are individuals not reflections of their parents. Nature and nurture both are important and some things are not controllable. This is nothing new. I think church membership has been in an overall downtrend for a while now but the US still has a Christian majority.

 

I was raised in a religion and am now an atheist. There is nothing my parents could have done to change that.

Edited April 27, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Daria]

Same here, when I grew up sexual orientation was nobody's business. Dd saw plenty in highschool, gals and guys, sometimes they would blurt it out in the middle of a class, spread the word at lunch etc, but shortly after would take it back. In many cases she truly couldn't tell if they were wanting to get attention, cause drama or what? But this were highschool kids. The idea of this topic in a 3rd grade class just revolves my stomach

 

You didn't know any men and women who were openly married to each other?  You didn't attend any weddings, or watch any princess movies?  You didn't go to a prom where boys brought girls or vice versa?

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Difficult conversation, but it's been a good one too.

 

 

[justasque]

Who on earth is denying anyone anything?  Last I heard, it's been legal to do whatever you want with whomever you want for quite a long time.  Pretty much always, if you didn't want the piece of paper, and certainly even if you do now. 

 

 

This is simply not true.  Lawrence vs. Texas was only struck down in 2003; before that it was legal for states to have laws making gay sex a crime.  It is still legal in many states for people to be fired from their jobs just because the boss finds out they are in a same-sex relationship.  Civil marriage has only been legal nation-wide since Obergefell vs. Hodges in 2015; many issues (taxes, inheritance, etc.) were complex before then.

 

Trans* people continue to face serious legal concerns, North Carolina's HB2 being the most in-the-news right now but hardly the only legal issue.

[TranquilMind]

An affair greatly hurts the other spouses and any children.

 

My single dd choosing to date another single girl isn't breaking up a marriage or hurting children.

 

They are very different things.

Well, that's one way to look at it. 

 

But not the way it is viewed in the faith.  It is still outside biblical parameters for appropriate relationships.  And in that sense, it would be wrong to those who adhere to that faith. 

[TranquilMind]

This is simply not true.  Lawrence vs. Texas was only struck down in 2003; before that it was legal for states to have laws making gay sex a crime.  It is still legal in many states for people to be fired from their jobs just because the boss finds out they are in a same-sex relationship.  Civil marriage has only been legal nation-wide since Obergefell vs. Hodges in 2015; many issues (taxes, inheritance, etc.) were complex before then.

 

Trans* people continue to face serious legal concerns, North Carolina's HB2 being the most in-the-news right now but hardly the only legal issue.

Ok, last I heard, it was 2016, where anything goes.

 

That NC bathroom bill is meaningless.  It's merely reactionary and much ado about nothing, considering it affects almost no one. People have been using the restroom in accordance to how they are dressed forever.  Nothing is going to change there. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

You didn't know any men and women who were openly married to each other?  You didn't attend any weddings, or watch any princess movies?  You didn't go to a prom where boys brought girls or vice versa?

 

 

I'm sure you knew what she meant.  Meaning nobody talked about wondering if their body matched their feelings.  Stuff like that.

 

I myself have never sat down and thought about what my gender is or what my sexual orientation is.  Probably because everything is all lined up and matching and in line with what people assume and expect.

 

I find it interesting that we went from rarely hearing about that to now it seems like every other person is questioning.  Emphasis on "seems".  I'm not 100% sure on actual prevalence. 

[Onceuponatime]

Cycling way back, am I the only one who has no trouble imagining 1/2 a classroom of 3rd graders announcing that they were gay or bi or trans?

 

Many many people have very poor understanding of those concepts. I can absolutely imagine a teacher telling her class that "Trans is when you wish you were a different gender", and getting a ton of "that's me!" I know when I was in third grade, I sometimes wished I was a boy. Peeing standing up looked like fun, and I wanted to be a doctor and only knew male doctors. Plus my dad used to pay my brother to wash the car ('cause that's a "boy chore"), whereas my mom made me do the dishes for free.

 

But if you'd given me an accurate description of what it meant to be trans, then I would have recognized that it wasn't me. I might have wished I was a boy, but I knew for sure that I was a boy.

 

Similarly, I think that explaining sexual orientation to 8 year olds is tricky, because most people explain it in terms of attraction, and little kids don't have a great understanding of that. Is it the same as "liking" someone? Because I like James, he's my best friend! Is it the same as wanting to marry someone and live with them? Because I think Molly would be a lot of fun to live with, and then she could do the girl chores and maybe I'd finally get to mow the lawn?

 

So, yes, I can imagine plenty of 8 year olds saying "me too!" in that circumstance. Especially if they're growing up in a culture where being gay or bi or trans is accepted.

I had the exact same thoughts about the third graders. I wanted to be an optometrist and didn't know girls could be that. (I tried the peeing standing up, lol) I had girl crushes, I disliked boys for a while. But that's not the same thing at all as being lesbian. Those things are developmentally "normal." How many 3rd graders have enough understanding and knowledge to make categorical statements about their sexuality that aren't based on current transient feelings?

 

I'm only referring to the classroom story, not any of the other topics.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Onceuponatime

[Scarlett]

An affair greatly hurts the other spouses and any children.

 

My single dd choosing to date another single girl isn't breaking up a marriage or hurting children.

 

They are very different things.

Not if you believe God thinks it is wrong.

[Scarlett]

Gay means action as much as hetero means action.

 

Probably at some point, but not necessarily right now.

And neither have to act on their feelings.

[Scarlett]

I can't agree I am any better than dh as a person, at the core of who I am. Was my behaviour better ? You bet. Is dh any less of a person, with inherent human dignity, for sinning ? No he is not.

 

There but for the grace of God and all that.

 

I guess I have forgiven him.

 

His sin is his to deal with, kwim ? Just as, if a child is gay and you think it's a sin, that's their sin to deal with. Let them deal with it. Give them the respect of treating them as full, flawed humans.

I agree a worse sin doesn't make you less of a human being. Accepting that we are all flawed is far different than condoning a sin,

[luuknam]

In college people talk. They also dismiss other people's sexuality by claiming it's not real if it's not your only choice.

 

It doesn't mean girls experiment because it is cool. There are many college girls in particular prefer girls for a time or are "fag hags" which have less to do with cool than they have to do with safety and sexual maturity.

 

If you're bi, you're not lesbian. You're bi. You can come out as lesbian all you like, but if you like both, you're simply not. That's not dismissing someone's sexuality, that's simply stating the obvious. I know people in college talk, but given the sources and the situation (college in NL in the 2000s), I don't think it was just BS or being dismissive.

 

What on earth do you mean when you say some college girls prefer girls for a time or are fag hags out of a lack of sexual maturity?

 

Given that one side wants to deny LBGTIQ people everything from human dignity, reducing their identities to fashion or fad,

 

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that all LGBT people are simply trying to be trendy or anything. But seriously, you think it's *never* happened *anywhere* that a (straight or slightly bi) kid came out as gay for attention/to be cool/etc?

[Joker]

And neither have to act on their feelings.

And I think it's very easy for those who have experienced marriage and children to say this.

 

My dd has a huge heart and loves big. She loves children and they love her right back. I will not be someone who thinks she should live her life without a spouse and children if that's what she wants.

 

I get you and others don't agree but it's honestly not for you to decide.

[bolt.]

I think in 3rd grade, there should be openness around: "People exist who are gay. That means they fall in love and date people of the same gender as themselves. You probably know some, or will meet some eventually. People learn these things about themselves as they grow up too. Remember, all families who are good to each other are good families."

 

That's basic info about society and the relationships that make up society -- it shouldn't turn anyone's stomach.

 

However, I don't think prepubescent children should be asked/encouraged or allowed to use class time to disclose/discuss their personal first inklings of sexual orientation. That's just too personal for class discussion, and too young (or the kids would have noticed that it's too personal).

 

On the other hand, most people are aware of their own gender quite young (before school age) and might have noticed if it differs from their biological sex. A careful message (maybe?) about "people, even kids" who want to live their whole lives as a boy with female anatomy, or a girl with male anatomy -- that it's s big decision and they should talk to their parents and maybe their doctor about it... That sounds reasonable. Perhaps with added, "Lots of kids also like to play and pretend to be either gender because it's fun to be imaginative and play." -- and that's fine, no need for parents or doctors.

[Carrie12345]

But would a parent be wrong for making his opinion known?  Say adult child is engaged in a relationship with someone who is already married? 

 

If the parent objects strenuously, and the kid knows it is wrong according to his ingrained faith, he will still resist the parent and state that this particular case is different, of course, and that no one understands unless he is in it. 

 

Of course it is more likely that the kid will just hide it.  But even hiding it shows knowledge that it is wrong, or he wouldn't hide it. 

 

Hiding things does not automatically equal "knowledge that it is wrong".  People often hide things to shield themselves from the pain they suspect other people will cause them.

 

For example, I wasn't always an "out" atheist.  I 100% believe being an atheist is "right".  I also know how some people react to atheists.

 

I have taught my children that being gay is in no way, shape, or form "wrong", but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have any fears about coming out.

[Reefgazer]

I think 2 reasons:  There is more acceptance of open and forthright questioning and differences in every area (not a bad thing, IMO), and it's very trendy to jump on whatever is in the news and pumped up as acceptable and common in the media (Bad thing, IMO).

Edited April 27, 2016 by reefgazer

[bolt.]

Well, that's one way to look at it.

 

But not the way it is viewed in the faith. It is still outside biblical parameters for appropriate relationships. And in that sense, it would be wrong to those who adhere to that faith.

I wish you would not speak for "the faith" -- Many people *of the faith* view it as 'outside biblical parameters' but not actually a 'damaging' choice. Many people *of the faith* view it as well within biblical parameters. And: since "it" is 'dating' in this case -- most people *of the faith* are well aware that there *are* no biblical instructions or 'parameters' regarding dating: None. At all.

[luuknam]

Ok, last I heard, it was 2016, where anything goes.

 

That NC bathroom bill is meaningless.  It's merely reactionary and much ado about nothing, considering it affects almost no one. People have been using the restroom in accordance to how they are dressed forever.  Nothing is going to change there. 

 

The NC bathroom bill is not about using the bathroom the way you're dressed. It's about using it as your birth certificate says. Which means that you'd be seeing transmen with beards in the ladies room. But hey, if that's what NC wants, w/e.

[sbgrace]

OP, I really like the book Torn by Justin Lee.

 

He doesn't push for one side or other in terms of celibacy among gay Christians, but he does a fantastic job of explaining what it is like for him to be a Christian who is also gay, and how church positions in his culture made that process more difficult. He also clearly explains how a Christian might come to a conclusion that a celibacy isn't the only option, while another might believe celibacy is the only choice compatible with her/his faith. 

 

It can be eye opening, explains what I think some in this thread are trying to express, and is gentle enough that I felt comfortable having my very conservative father read it.

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by sbgrace

[Scarlett]

And I think it's very easy for those who have experienced marriage and children to say this.

 

My dd has a huge heart and loves big. She loves children and they love her right back. I will not be someone who thinks she should live her life without a spouse and children if that's what she wants.

 

I get you and others don't agree but it's honestly not for you to decide.

Well. You are correct I don't get to decide what your dd does, I do get to decide what I believe is right and wrong. And that won't change based upon my child's feelings or actions.

 

But for you to say you belive your child should get to,have a spouse when she is gay...that sounds like action and it sounds like a conflict with your region. So you will go against your religion and support a gay marriage?

[luuknam]

What is 'slightly bi' ? is that like being a little bit pregnant ?

 

Idk, Being gay is accepted here, but it's a long way from being cool. The idea that lesbians aren't serious about their identity, in the main, is just icky to me.

 

FYI, sexuality is a spectrum. So, if you drew a line from 0 being 100% straight, to 10 being 100% gay, slightly bi would be, say, a 1 or 2. A 5 would be completely bi, and anything higher would be leaning more towards the gay side of the spectrum. A lot of people are probably slightly bi.

 

And again, I don't know who in this thread has said that most lesbians aren't serious about their identity.

[bolt.]

Not if you believe God thinks it is wrong.

There is an ordinary logical difference between believing that "God thinks it's wrong." -- And believing that "God thinks these two things are the same thing."

 

The first idea asserts that God defines morality, that God discloses morality, that we perfectly understand his disclosure, and can accurately apply it.

 

The second idea asserts that God is an idiot who can't measure harm, count people, or find distinguishing characteristics regarding human decisions, actions, motives and circumstances.

[Jane in NC]

 

That NC bathroom bill is meaningless. It's merely reactionary and much ado about nothing, considering it affects almost no one. People have been using the restroom in accordance to how they are dressed forever. Nothing is going to change there.

Actually the bathroom provision is only part of the bill. HB-2 prevents municipalities from creating non-discrimination ordinances supporting gay or trans people. The bill is far from meaningless.

[Joker]

Well. You are correct I don't get to decide what your dd does, I do get to decide what I believe is right and wrong. And that won't change based upon my child's feelings or actions.

 

But for you to say you belive your child should get to,have a spouse when she is gay...that sounds like action and it sounds like a conflict with your region. So you will go against your religion and support a gay marriage?

If my dd gets married, I'll be sitting right up front. It doesn't damage my relationship with God to support my dd if she chooses to do so.

[monstermama]

See, I see you conflating two things here. 

 

Even the Catholic Church states that it may not be a choice to have the attractions but it is a choice to act on them. 

 

So in that way, it indeed is a choice, as is the choice to engage in relations with a married person.

 

Of course, even the one involved with the married person would say that you just don't understand how strong this attraction was and how he couldn't help it and how it must not be wrong because it feels so right.  God would "want him to be happy" and if his current marriage doesn't make him happy, oh well. 

 

Or maybe I've just worked in offices where it's like Mad Men all the time....

 

I'm not very familiar with Catholicism, so thank you for clarifying that for me.  The gay friends I'm close enough to have talked to about this came from churches where simply being attracted to another person of the same sex was a sin, no action required.  I'd agree that if your tenets include no premarital sex, then that should apply whether you're gay or not.  And I think that it's pretty normal for people to try to explain away their own sins.  But (and, again, not Catholic, so I may have this all wrong) I think the hard thing for gay people with the Catholic church is that they don't have the same options as a heterosexual person.  For a hetero person, you're expected to be celibate until you get married and then be faithful to your spouse, though choosing to remain celibate for life is also a perfectly respectable option.  I think the Catholic understanding of marriage requires procreation, so since that's obviously a no-go for gay folks, they have no option other than remaining celibate for life.

 

I mean, I guess, typing all that out... how would a Catholic parent handle a child who decides to shack up with someone with no intention of ever marrying?  I don't think that's a particularly new problem.  I mean, I have a nominally Catholic acquaintance who divorced her husband a little over a year ago and just had a kid with another guy....

[Farrar]

If you're bi, you're not lesbian. You're bi. You can come out as lesbian all you like, but if you like both, you're simply not. That's not dismissing someone's sexuality, that's simply stating the obvious. I know people in college talk, but given the sources and the situation (college in NL in the 2000s), I don't think it was just BS or being dismissive.

 

What on earth do you mean when you say some college girls prefer girls for a time or are fag hags out of a lack of sexual maturity?

 

 

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that all LGBT people are simply trying to be trendy or anything. But seriously, you think it's *never* happened *anywhere* that a (straight or slightly bi) kid came out as gay for attention/to be cool/etc?

 

This is why I think it's not productive to have a nuanced conversation about sexual identity vs. sexual desires in a context where people are hung up on whether or not sexuality is ever a choice and whether it's a sin and so forth. People who feel an attraction to both sexes routinely choose one identity or the other as being easier for them to fit into. People who are bi get it from both sides - you're just experimenting from the straight end, or, you're just not fully comfortable with your "real" identity from the lesbian/gay end. And while that's not such a great choice to have to make, on the other hand, some people are okay with saying, you know what, I'm fine with picking an identity, usually based on who they partner with long term. This is where we get to the place where identity and some sense of genetic disposition don't always merge perfectly. People are making choices. People figure out what their identity is through experimentation - or not - and there's choices involved in that. Society makes it easier or harder to go through a phase of experimentation with sexual identity. I think it's disingenuous to try to say that isn't an easier choice to explore on a liberal, east coast American women's college than a small town in Mississippi or something. It is, of course.

 

On the other hand, the evidence is very clear to date that there is a biological basis to homosexuality. But it's also complex. Identity is complex. To what extent you choose your identity is complex. And this conversation is probably not the best venue for it. Sigh.

[Mergath]

I agree a worse sin doesn't make you less of a human being. Accepting that we are all flawed is far different than condoning a sin,

 

Oh, please. Christian denominations condone all kinds of sins when it's inconvenient to condemn them. Gluttony, anyone? I haven't seen any religious groups trying to legislate against obesity, or refuse to allow obese people to marry in the church, because it would hurt their membership and their bottom line. 

 

Church organizations make money by riling up their members about social wedge issues. The anti-gay sentiment in the church today has nothing to do with theology. It's political and financial. 

[catz]

Well. You are correct I don't get to decide what your dd does, I do get to decide what I believe is right and wrong. And that won't change based upon my child's feelings or actions.

 

But for you to say you belive your child should get to,have a spouse when she is gay...that sounds like action and it sounds like a conflict with your region. So you will go against your religion and support a gay marriage?

 

What if your child decides they're not your religion or atheist?  What if they don't baptize their children?  Do you not have a relationship with them any more?  Do you give them a regular lecture on their wrong doing?  At some point you need to decide off you are going to love your adult child the best way you know how or if you are going to put yourself in a place that will probably make it so your adult child no longer is going to have any sort of relationship with you because their beliefs differ.