Need help with Apples and Pears Spelling

[TheAttachedMama]

Has anyone actually had a child who has missed more than 5 words on the placement/mastery tests?   If so, what do you do?  

 

The directions tell me to go back and repeat the last 10 lessons....but my child has written all over the workbook?   So how exactly do I do that?

[Guest]

Have the child trace over the previous work or break out the eraser.

Another choice could be to do the lessons on a white board.

Which book are you using?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited April 25, 2016 by Paradox5

[freesia]

I erase.

[Soror]

We've not missed more than 4 on any lesson, I placed him a bit lower than I perhaps could have. I agree with the above suggestions. I'd look at what is missed and prioritize sections based on that. You might also be able to tape paper over the written in sections and copy it. Of course you'd be missing the lines and such but that would be easily fixed.

[TheAttachedMama]

We are in book A.   She missed 7 words.    

 

The words she missed were:

please (spelled pleas)

were (spelled where)

know (spelled kow)

quack (spelled quake)

quickly (spelled quikley)

said (spelled sed)

tight (spelled tait)

 

So....looking at that list, what exactly do I review with her?  

 

I've tried just about everything possible to teach this child spelling.   She went through AAS 1, 2, and half of 3 before I gave up with that program.   No matter how much we practiced over and over and over again, she just could not remember how to spell words.   (The program works really well for her brother.  But doesn't seem to stick for her no matter how much we work at it.)

 

So then we switched to A&P.   Things were going ok, but now I am running into even more problems with that.  

 

She is fond of throwing silent e's at the end of words in a random fashion.   (Even though she knows the AAS silent E rules backwards and fowards.)   But often times, she will leave silent e's off of words that need them.  (for example, "pleas").   She Ccan recite the rules for when to use ck vs k at the end of a word backwards and forwards, but it never gets applied to her writing.   She also has problems with some "rule breakers"---and no matter how many times we practice those, she can't seem to remember them.   For example, "said" is always "sed".   She also always spells "want" like "wunt", etc.

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[h2bh]

We have repeated things selectively and I use a white board for it and skip the puzzles.

 

[freesia]

My third was a random e adder. Drove me crazy. My second repeated many Apples and Pears units. She's 13 and died fine with spelling now. Stick with it.

 

One thing that helped was having her close her eyes and spell the word backward and forward-- it forces the student to make a mental picture. I had to actively coach my third to imagine a white board, now write s now a now I now d. Okay now spell said forward, now see it on the board and spell it backward.

 

Teaching spelling is as tedious as learning it. I'm sorry you have a struggling speller. One thing that has helped me, honestly, was another friend with struggling spellers. It took my third months and months to spell know correctly (he could spell ought and through, but not know). I would text my friend the latest version of know and I knew she felt my pain. We also laugh together about the spelling bee announcements.

[Soror]

I don't have specific advice as those errors seem to be all over the place to me. I think looking at that I'd go back and re-do all the lessons. 

 

On the where/were my son had the hardest time remembering which words started with just a W and which started with WH, not sure if that is her issue but I remember that struggle. (really it seems he has finally gotten it this year at 11.5+}. Fwiw he didn't start A&P until last year at 10, he started with Level B then. 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I would go back.  I would also probably slow down and focus on shorter lessons with more review.  Have you seen the create your own word searches or crossword puzzles?

http://puzzlemaker.discoveryeducation.com/WordSearchSetupForm.asp

one with the words you listed.

E K C K Q L G P H H S E U H R K I N B P F E Z W T S A F Y E B O P P C W Q G W A Z R A Z P W T E K U E H D E L S I K X C L S G J R B J L R T T H P M I N J A H C M P O E M P Y P Y N G X B Z K D M S L I H Q W L W D I A S M L B O Z B D P G K K Z V M Z S T K T P W H F U C N Q U A C K U I O T Y S L K I G G Q R M Y X B G T T R P A U O K T P B T W H I H K S O J Q T H F M J Y B V X Q T X O J S V W H I T Q P B E X H S F A T I T R B Q D O Q O U V E A J I R KNOWPLEASEQUACKQUICKLYSAIDTIGHTWERE

crossword maker

http://puzzlemaker.discoveryeducation.com/CrissCrossSetupForm.asp

 

fwiw, visual discrimination exercises like this helped my kids.

Edited April 25, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[8circles]

I would also talk through each lesson more with struggling areas. Recite the rule and then talk through applying it to each word.

[Loowit]

I used notebook paper.  My oldest DS has had to repeat several times.  He just finished the last book yesterday, and it was a great program for him.  There were some frustrations, but it was worth it in the end.

[EmilyGF]

When my daughter misses words more than once or twice, I write them at the top of the page. Then I have her spell them orally a few times during the lesson. I then review them (orally, for her) at the beginning and end of the next few lessons. This way, we hit the trouble words before they are a setback.

 

Emily

[zarabellesmom]

I've erased, and I've used the white board. Now I'm just so frustrated that we are taking a break for a little while. My daughter makes mistakes similar to yours. Also things like from become ferom.  For whatever reason, the "r" phonogram is being mixed up with the "er" phonogram.  I swear I don't pronounce words that way, so what gives?

 

My oldest is almost done with Apples and Pears D and she has improved tremendously. I know that she was just as bad at this age so we'll get there, but I'm trying not to rip my hair out in the meantime. When I think of all the money I have spent on spelling programs... :crying:

[MerryAtHope]

I've erased, and I've used the white board. Now I'm just so frustrated that we are taking a break for a little while. My daughter makes mistakes similar to yours. Also things like from become ferom.  For whatever reason, the "r" phonogram is being mixed up with the "er" phonogram.  I swear I don't pronounce words that way, so what gives?

 

One thing that can help when this happens is to have her read *exactly* what she wrote. If she says "from," then say something like, "Actually, this would be pronounced fer-om. Do you know how to change it to make it say 'from?'" Helping her read back what she wrote will, over time, help correct errors like this one. (My kids needed LOTS of segmenting practice and tended to either leave letters out or add additional letters in. As you said, she'll get there!)

[sdobis]

A lot of spelling rules do nothing to help my daughter's spelling. It never translated in her writing. That is why AAS did not work for her. We love A&P. I love the idea of seeing the word and spelling it backwards. I can see that helping with visual kids.

[zarabellesmom]

One thing that can help when this happens is to have her read *exactly* what she wrote. If she says "from," then say something like, "Actually, this would be pronounced fer-om. Do you know how to change it to make it say 'from?'" Helping her read back what she wrote will, over time, help correct errors like this one. (My kids needed LOTS of segmenting practice and tended to either leave letters out or add additional letters in. As you said, she'll get there!)

I will definitely try that. Thank you!

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

We are probably in the exact same place in A! Lol

 

Considering her errors, I would specifically review the -lay suffix and ight spelling pattern. The other missed words I would review as a complete word to be memorized.

[TheAttachedMama]

I don't have specific advice as those errors seem to be all over the place to me. I think looking at that I'd go back and re-do all the lessons. 

 

On the where/were my son had the hardest time remembering which words started with just a W and which started with WH, not sure if that is her issue but I remember that struggle. (really it seems he has finally gotten it this year at 11.5+}. Fwiw he didn't start A&P until last year at 10, he started with Level B then. 

 

Yeah, tell me about it!    Another issue that throws me as a teacher is that her spelling is not consistent at all.   The only thing that is consistent is the fact that she does poorly with spelling.   I bet you a million dollars that if I re-test her on those same words, she will miss just as many, but they will be different errors.   it isn't as easy as saying, "Oh she doesn't know the igh sound in words." or "Oh, she can't spell this suffix".   And that makes teaching her really hard because I don't have any specific thing to review with her.   

 

 

 

 

I would also talk through each lesson more with struggling areas. Recite the rule and then talk through applying it to each word.

One thing that makes me question the A&P method is that it doesn't explicitly teach rules (as far as I can tell).   I hear people say, "review the spelling patterns"---but sometimes it isn't clear to me what the child is suppose to be learning in any given A&P lesson.   Am I the only one who feels this way?

 

  As an example, they have the child spell a bunch of words with ck at the end....but they don't explain why they are spelled with a ck at the end.   I think that with A&P you are just suppose to practice writing that word **SO** many times that you eventually remember it.   But there is not explanation as to why.     It is only because I have used other OG programs with my older son that I am able to help review the spelling pattern with her.   I explain to her that those words have a short vowel right before the /k/ sound,  so we use ck at the end.   But that isn't made clear with *just* the A&P lesson....at least to me.   It helps that so far everything we have learned with A&P has been a review of what she has learned in AAS....but neither program seems to be able to make the spelling stick.

 

Now, that being said, I was never taught the "rules" of spelling in school.   In fact, i wasn't even taught anything more than the very basic letter sounds, and some how I mysteriously learned to read and spell words.  So maybe the human brain is smart enough to figure things out like this without explicit instruction???   

 

I guess I will just add even more practice and review.   As it is, we do spelling everyday for about 20 minutes.   The tips on helping her with her visual memory (picturing white board) are good too.   I am convinced that "good" spellers just have a better visual memory than "poor" spellers.   

 

 

 

One thing that can help when this happens is to have her read *exactly* what she wrote. If she says "from," then say something like, "Actually, this would be pronounced fer-om. Do you know how to change it to make it say 'from?'" Helping her read back what she wrote will, over time, help correct errors like this one. (My kids needed LOTS of segmenting practice and tended to either leave letters out or add additional letters in. As you said, she'll get there!)

I forgot to mention that *every* single time she spells a word incorrectly, we do this process.    I have her sound out exactly what she has written, and then we discuss why and how we could change what she wrote to the actual word, etc.   

[Haiku]

The directions tell me to go back and repeat the last 10 lessons....but my child has written all over the workbook?   So how exactly do I do that?

 

We used A&P, and it was very helpful to my son. We did not repeat lessons when he missed "too many," because (regardless of what A&P has to say about it) that was very defeating to him.

 

What I did instead was make a list of the words he needed work on and throw them in as we continued through the book. My ds needed to be moving forward, not (in his mind) going backward or he would have lost all motivation.

 

I wouldn't worry about going back. Jus continue to work on the words she missed.

 

I will say it took us much longer to get through A&P than most people said it would, but it was worth the time. Now we are in Megawords, and that is an excellent program, too.

[8filltheheart]

Yeah, tell me about it!    Another issue that throws me as a teacher is that her spelling is not consistent at all.   The only thing that is consistent is the fact that she does poorly with spelling.   I bet you a million dollars that if I re-test her on those same words, she will miss just as many, but they will be different errors.   it isn't as easy as saying, "Oh she doesn't know the igh sound in words." or "Oh, she can't spell this suffix".   And that makes teaching her really hard because I don't have any specific thing to review with her.   

 

 

 

 

One thing that makes me question the A&P method is that it doesn't explicitly teach rules (as far as I can tell).   I hear people say, "review the spelling patterns"---but sometimes it isn't clear to me what the child is suppose to be learning in any given A&P lesson.   Am I the only one who feels this way?

 

  As an example, they have the child spell a bunch of words with ck at the end....but they don't explain why they are spelled with a ck at the end.   I think that with A&P you are just suppose to practice writing that word **SO** many times that you eventually remember it.   But there is not explanation as to why.     It is only because I have used other OG programs with my older son that I am able to help review the spelling pattern with her.   I explain to her that those words have a short vowel right before the /k/ sound,  so we use ck at the end.   But that isn't made clear with *just* the A&P lesson....at least to me.   It helps that so far everything we have learned with A&P has been a review of what she has learned in AAS....but neither program seems to be able to make the spelling stick.

 

Now, that being said, I was never taught the "rules" of spelling in school.   In fact, i wasn't even taught anything more than the very basic letter sounds, and some how I mysteriously learned to read and spell words.  So maybe the human brain is smart enough to figure things out like this without explicit instruction???   

 

I guess I will just add even more practice and review.   As it is, we do spelling everyday for about 20 minutes.   The tips on helping her with her visual memory (picturing white board) are good too.   I am convinced that "good" spellers just have a better visual memory than "poor" spellers.   

 

 

 

I forgot to mention that *every* single time she spells a word incorrectly, we do this process.    I have her sound out exactly what she has written, and then we discuss why and how we could change what she wrote to the actual word, etc.   

 

Rules have not helped my poor spellers at all.  With my oldest ds, he could turn in a paper and have the same word spelled 3 different ways on the same page. A common one was with spelled whith, whithe, withe and NEVER the correct way!

 

My 3 worst spellers are dyslexic.  The way the problems manifest themselves are different with each child, but spelling is one that impacts all 3 horribly.  

 

I would really work on trying multiple pathways for imprinting spelling, but I would not make it something that is defeating or a stumbling block to other areas.  For example, until my boys were in high school, I graded content, mechanics, and grammar in their papers, but spelling I marked separately and just asked them to correct.  During high school, I expected them to use spell check and look up homophones to make sure that they used the correct one.  They would read their papers backwards (from end to beginning) to see if they could identify words that spell check might have replaced with the incorrect word, etc.

 

FWIW, those kids still can't spell.  But they are highly successful.  They learned to cope with their spelling handicap.  

 

I am now having to repeat everything I did with them with my 4th grade dd b/c her spelling is every bit as horrible as theirs while her reading is way better.