NY options (again)- 24 credit route

[Hilltopmom]

Let's talk NY options again!

 

Right now ds is is seriously considering starting at our local SUNY to live at home & save $.

 

I'm getting nervous about counting on a super's letter, although it is routine in our area, but just in case...

 

Has anyone actually used the 24 credit option?

 

He starts DE in the fall & in looking at our rough DE plan for 11th & 12th, he could meet the 24 credit option by re arranging things a bit (since its a certain 24 credits in different categories).

 

OR- even though it irks me that our kids are asked to---prep for & take the TASC, then continue his classes at CC (does not effect cost as we don't get a tuition break anyways for DE), then apply for 4 year SUNY after knocking off some gen eds at the CC.

 

NYers- for your kids going SUNY, which option did you use/ plan to use, & did you have a back up plan (ie- take TASC/ GED if super refused to give letter)?

 

I know going out of state, or privates in NY would get around all this, but right now, plan A is local SUNY.

 

Thanks.

[Jen in NY]

If I am not mistaken, you need 24 credits by the time you graduate from college ... not before you start. IOW, you need it to get out, not get in.

 

I'll do some research and see what I can find.

 

[Hilltopmom]

Yeah, technically it is before you graduate college, but our SUNY & CC at least, require the super letter, GED, or 24 credits to admit you (to be matriculated) & get financial aid.

 

After you have the 24 credits, you apply to the state for a GED.

 

I don't know anyone who has actually done it though, here everyone either- goes private, gets a super letter, or takes the GED.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[mschickie]

You should not need the TASC no matter what.  Most districts will do the letter of completion I have only heard of one or two that refuse it (and those are some schools that really have it out for homeschoolers in the first place).  I think it is actually getting more common since the SUNY schools are really asking for it.

 

As for the 24 credit hour option I know many folks who have completed that but they have used them on their transcripts and gotten the letter too.  I do know one person who did the 24 credits at a local CC and then the parents had to fight the CC because they put on the transcript that they had essentially earned a GED.  The parents did not want that label on their child's transcript.  This was something the system did automatically  for kids without a high school diploma once they received the 24 credits.  You could contact your local CC and see if that is something automatically added to the transcript in your area.

[Hilltopmom]

Our supers turn over so often & each has their own ideas, that I hate to rely on it. Some only will give it for kids who take exactly the same classes as ps kids & get a certain SAT cut off & must be in the same district all 4 years (we are considering moving).

We're in a pretty rural area without a lot of older homeschooled kids, our district has not had a high school homeschool student other than mine in at least a decade, none with the current super.

 

So, I just hate to rely on it, kwim.

 

Good to know about the GED thing being put on the transcript automatically, thanks.

[SparklyUnicorn]

http://www.genesee.edu/assets/file/ace/Equivalency%20Diploma_Earned%20College%20Credit.pdf

 

That document might be of interest.

 

But yes this is what I do not understand.  The wording of the regulation says this needs to be in place before graduating, but it does not say it needs to be in place before being admitted.  Many schools are not interpreting it that way though and asking for this requirement up front. 

Some people say stuff like most districts will do the letter, but I have no idea what makes them so sure of that.  I have tried to find SOMEONE in my district who has asked for a letter and gotten it and I have yet to find anyone who has gone that route.  Doesn't mean there is not anyone, but I can't find anyone.  And to give you an idea of what my district is like, they have not responded to any of my paperwork in two years.  Not even the parts they are required to respond to.  Saturday, I got a letter from them for the first time in two years.  It was to let me know that my 3rd quarter reports contained the necessary information.  Talk about random.  So I have no idea if I can count on them in the future. 

Edited April 25, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[SparklyUnicorn]

Our supers turn over so often & each has their own ideas, that I hate to rely on it. Some only will give it for kids who take exactly the same classes as ps kids & get a certain SAT cut off & must be in the same district all 4 years (we are considering moving).

We're in a pretty rural area without a lot of older homeschooled kids, our district has not had a high school homeschool student other than mine in at least a decade, none with the current super.

 

So, I just hate to rely on it, kwim.

 

Good to know about the GED thing being put on the transcript automatically, thanks.

 

Yep.  We have had 3 supers since my older kid has been school attendance age.  I've dealt with 4 different people regarding the paperwork.  I once called the super's office to ask about something and nobody there knew anything about the homeschool regs.  They told me to call the person in charge of it at the moment (some principle at some school).  So the super is in charge of this, but doesn't touch it and does not know anything about it.  And I'm supposed to ask for a letter at the end?  That doesn't give me the best feeling. 

[Hilltopmom]

In the last couple of years, about 8-10 local kids have gotten the letter with no problem, from a few neighboring districts, but none in ours have asked (my kid is the oldest in our district) so, who knows?!

 

Plus, you need "something official (one of the options)" in order to get financial aid too, so it's not just about being admitted.

Ugh, NY.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[SparklyUnicorn]

In the last couple of years, about 8-10 local kids have gotten the letter with no problem, from a few neighboring districts, but none in ours have asked (my kid is the oldest in our district) so, who knows?!

 

Plus, you need "something official (one of the options)" in order to get financial aid too, so it's not just about being admitted.

Ugh, NY.

 

Actually though the wording regarding financial aid is if you don't have a high school diploma or equivalent, you need to take an ability to benefit test (which is brain dead easy btw).  So it is not true that you have to have an equivalent to get financial aid.

 

At least that is what it says for the TAP. 

 

See here:  https://www.hesc.ny.gov/pay-for-college/financial-aid/types-of-financial-aid/grants/tap-eligibility.html

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah this whole thing is really driving me crazy.  I think we are leaning towards going the TASC route, but I'm not 100% thrilled with that idea. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's very odd how the schools interpret stuff the way they do and it's odd that half the time whoever you are dealing with seems to have never heard of homeschooling.  There are plenty of homeschoolers in NY.

 

I know, for example, that lots of homeschoolers have gone to the CC down the street from me.  Yet when I went down there with my kid, the person I dealt with kinda acted as if she had never encountered such a thing.  We spent several hours there sorting it out and in the end except for wasting a day it wasn't too difficult.  But how does that happen that several people there have no clue, but homeschoolers go there all the time?  I really do not get it.  I even stopped there a couple of months before bringing him to sign up for a class to ask.  There were 2 women sitting there with me in the advising office and they were going back and forth about what needed to be done and they weren't saying the same things.  I finally just said ok, well I'll just cross that bridge when we get to it.  I mean geesh, they had no clue. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

BTW thank you for letting me vent.  Not that I gave you a choice though...LOL

 

 

[anne1456]

One of the issues with the 24 credit option is that I believe the credits are supposed to be taken as a matriculated student, which means dual enrollment might not count. And yes, it should be 24 credits before college graduation, but that is not how it is interpreted by the SUNYs, so you are stuck with their interpretation.

 

I planned to do the 24 credit option with my oldest. When she was getting ready to graduate (2010) I ran into a brick wall with the SUNYs trying to get her dual credit to count for this, or trying to get it delayed until college graduation. I spent about 1/2 an hour on the phone with an admissions counselor at Brockport, and finally he just said something like, "Get the letter. Your superintendent should give it to you, they do this all the time." So I visited my district and they gave me the letter, even though I hadn't reported my daughter since she was 16. I had to file all the back paperwork and I had the letter a few weeks later, and we had been in multiple school districts with multiple superintendents for this child.

 

If you have filed your paperwork and have approved IHIPs there is no justification for denying you the letter. It is much more effort from them to refuse to write the letter, especially if you are willing to be persistent and take it to the school board if necessary. They do not want to waste time and energy dealing with homeschoolers, because they have plenty of other things to do. Unless you know the superintendent is known to refuse I wouldn't worry about it, even if you think he hasn't ever been asked. 

 

When you send in the IHIP for senior year ask for a preliminary letter of equivalency. This basically says if everything is completed as specified in the IHIP a letter of equivalency will be issued in June. This is standard, some SUNYs want to see this before they will deal with your application. If your superintendent won't give you this then you might have a problem, but you have still six months before graduation to escalate it or come up with a plan B.

[SparklyUnicorn]

One of the issues with the 24 credit option is that I believe the credits are supposed to be taken as a matriculated student, which means dual enrollment might not count. And yes, it should be 24 credits before college graduation, but that is not how it is interpreted by the SUNYs, so you are stuck with their interpretation.

 

I planned to do the 24 credit option with my oldest. When she was getting ready to graduate (2010) I ran into a brick wall with the SUNYs trying to get her dual credit to count for this, or trying to get it delayed until college graduation. I spent about 1/2 an hour on the phone with an admissions counselor at Brockport, and finally he just said something like, "Get the letter. Your superintendent should give it to you, they do this all the time." So I visited my district and they gave me the letter, even though I hadn't reported my daughter since she was 16. I had to file all the back paperwork and I had the letter a few weeks later, and we had been in multiple school districts with multiple superintendents for this child.

 

If you have filed your paperwork and have approved IHIPs there is no justification for denying you the letter. It is much more effort from them to refuse to write the letter, especially if you are willing to be persistent and take it to the school board if necessary. They do not want to waste time and energy dealing with homeschoolers, because they have plenty of other things to do. Unless you know the superintendent is known to refuse I wouldn't worry about it, even if you think he hasn't ever been asked. 

 

When you send in the IHIP for senior year ask for a preliminary letter of equivalency. This basically says if everything is completed as specified in the IHIP a letter of equivalency will be issued in June. This is standard, some SUNYs want to see this before they will deal with your application. If your superintendent won't give you this then you might have a problem, but you have still six months before graduation to escalate it or come up with a plan B.

 

I have encountered that wording about matriculation and the 24 credits, but it's not worded like that anywhere with regards to the homeschool regulations.  And how in heck does a person matriculate if matriculation, according to some school officials, can't happen without a high school diploma or GED?  Although I suppose one can take a bunch of courses as a non matriculated student that in full would satisfy the requirements for a degree and then turn around and get the 24 credit thing, be allowed to matriculate, and then graduate.  But this means I have to pay for all of these classes too. 

 

I have never ever missed any paperwork yet it's a hit or miss if they respond to me at all.  I have no approval letter for some of my IHIPs.  I contacted them to ask them to send me something please...they sent me a letter that said last year your stuff is all there. That's it.  What on earth?! 

 

 

[anne1456]

 

I have never ever missed any paperwork yet it's a hit or miss if they respond to me at all.  I have no approval letter for some of my IHIPs.  I contacted them to ask them to send me something please...they sent me a letter that said last year your stuff is all there. That's it.  What on earth?! 

 

My district never sends me anything - there is no approval of IHIPs or acknowledgement of having received paperwork. When I asked for a letter of equivalency for my 2nd daughter they didn't even notice, they just filed the letter without reading it. I showed up in person and they pulled the letter out of a file and said they'd look into it, and I had the letter the next day. The fact they don't pay attention can actually be good, as far as I am concerned.

[freesia]

I think that there is a Bill before the NY legislature about requiring the supers to supply the letter. It is beyond ridiculous that it is even an issue with how much paperwork we have to submit that they don't even have to write a letter that said we did it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm trying to verify that freesia.  I haven't found it yet, but I did find this which looks interesting:

 

https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2015/s4788

[SparklyUnicorn]

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A09091&term=2015&Summary=Y&Actions=Y&Text=Y&Votes=Y

 

Possibly it is this:

 9.  Letter  of substantial equivalency.   The resident school district     8  shall certify in writing when a student taught  at  home  has  completed     9  their  home  instruction  program  in compliance with this section. This    10  letter shall verify compliance with  this  section  and  that  the  home    11  instruction program was therefore substantially equivalent in compliance    12  with  subdivision two of section three thousand two hundred four of this    13  part.  Any student who completes a home instruction program before  they    14  turn  twenty-one  can  request  this  letter  from their resident school    15  district. Each school district must maintain the documentation necessary    16  to verify completion of the home instruction program for six years.

[freesia]

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A09091&term=2015&Summary=Y&Actions=Y&Text=Y&Votes=Y

 

Possibly it is this:

9. Letter of substantial equivalency. The resident school district

8 shall certify in writing when a student taught at home has completed

9 their home instruction program in compliance with this section. This

10 letter shall verify compliance with this section and that the home

11 instruction program was therefore substantially equivalent in compliance

12 with subdivision two of section three thousand two hundred four of this

13 part. Any student who completes a home instruction program before they

14 turn twenty-one can request this letter from their resident school

15 district. Each school district must maintain the documentation necessary

16 to verify completion of the home instruction program for six years.

Yes, that's it. It says they "shall certify in writing". If you read the rest, it also has provisions that allow parents to do the standardized testing. I think there are several bill floating around as possibilities, all of which require the super to write the letter. I either read about them in the LEAH magazine or HSLDA--I think it was LEAH. If I find an online review of them, I'll link it. I am just thankful someone is doing something. The whole-don't mess with the law it might get worse has driven me crazy b/c really it's pretty bad already.

[freesia]

This is a link to the one before the Assembly: https://legiscan.com/NY/bill/A09091/2015. It also allow us to test, write narratives and requires the supers to write the letter of substantial equivelency. Somewhere there was one that left out having to write quarterlies, but I am not seeing that.

 

And the ones relating to what the colleges are requiring are Assembly Bill 43 https://legiscan.com/NY/bill/A00043/2015 and Senate 841 https://legiscan.com/NY/bill/S00841/2015

 

Wouldn't it be fabulous if these were passed?

[SparklyUnicorn]

My district never sends me anything - there is no approval of IHIPs or acknowledgement of having received paperwork. When I asked for a letter of equivalency for my 2nd daughter they didn't even notice, they just filed the letter without reading it. I showed up in person and they pulled the letter out of a file and said they'd look into it, and I had the letter the next day. The fact they don't pay attention can actually be good, as far as I am concerned.

 

That's good to know.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, that's it. It says they "shall certify in writing". If you read the rest, it also has provisions that allow parents to do the standardized testing. I think there are several bill floating around as possibilities, all of which require the super to write the letter. I either read about them in the LEAH magazine or HSLDA--I think it was LEAH. If I find an online review of them, I'll link it. I am just thankful someone is doing something. The whole-don't mess with the law it might get worse has driven me crazy b/c really it's pretty bad already.

 

I need to find some local LEAH folks.  They seem to be more on top of this stuff.  I know we have a local LEAH group and in fact it is the only homeschool group in my city.  I'm not interested in joining, but I'd like to ask them what their experiences have been with trying to get a letter. 

 

Yes yes yes...the whole don't mess with the law.  BITE ME.  Seriously.  So many aspects of the regs make no sense whatsoever.  Regarding that bill we are discussing, I came across an organization who opposes removing some of the parts of the requirements.  For example, not requiring the quarterly reports anymore.  They oppose it because they say it doesn't protect children. How does it protect them now?  I could write anything on there.  Someone who is an abusive arse is not going to care about that requirement and won't have any trouble lying.  There is no way to verify the contents of the quarterly reports. 

 

Although I hate the testing stuff, that is the only part that makes any sense.  It's an outside verification of some sort.  It demonstrates that some learning is taking place.  Although I do think there should be alternatives because that might not work for all situations.  The rest of it is a joke. 

[Hilltopmom]

Well yikes, if classes taken while in high school don't count, that would suck. He should have over 24 credits (non matriculated) by graduation.

 

Agh, round & round I go.

 

I really hope the super letter just works out fine.

[Hilltopmom]

The whole "homeschooling is legal, here are all the legal hoops you have to jump through each year to do it, but in the end, neither you nor us will be able to award your child a diploma" thing is ridiculous.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The whole "homeschooling is legal, here are all the legal hoops you have to jump through each year to do it, but in the end, neither you nor us will be able to award your child a diploma" thing is ridiculous.

 

Yep.  That they won't grant a diploma I can understand.  That they create some arbitrary hoops just to attend college when colleges across the country are letting in homeschoolers no problem is absolutely stupid.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well yikes, if classes taken while in high school don't count, that would suck. He should have over 24 credits (non matriculated) by graduation.

 

Agh, round & round I go.

 

I really hope the super letter just works out fine.

 

It seems to me your chances are good it will work.  I have heard success stories.  Just wish I heard some from people who are in the same district though!

 

My district is so disorganized though.  For years I used to write these detailed IHIPs.  I listed the topics I was going to cover.  I listed some of the books, but not all because I figured how would they know what is in these books?  I thought explaining what was in them rather than just listing titles made more sense.  All of a sudden someone new came along and told me I was supposed to be listing book titles.  That isn't even true!!  But of course I don't want to make waves because I don't want them to give me a hard time. 

[freesia]

The whole "homeschooling is legal, here are all the legal hoops you have to jump through each year to do it, but in the end, neither you nor us will be able to award your child a diploma" tyhing is ridiculous.

Absolutely. We have to inform them about what we are going to do, what we have done each quarter and then submit a yearly evaluation and that counts for nothing?

[Hilltopmom]

well, either way, at least the credits he's taking DE will count towards SUNY Gen eds, lining those up ahead of time.

 

If he doesn't have to match a certain 24 credits, he has more leeway to take other classes he's more interested in for now.

 

Does, in some ways make taking the TASC & starting early as matriculated with financial aid, look like a decent option.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm currently asking locally about these bills.  I'm getting completely different explanations, but for the most part nobody has any idea what any of it means. 

 

My hesitation with the TASC comes down in large part to pride.  I didn't want it to come to this.  I didn't want to make things more complicated for my kids by homeschooling them.  So I'm just bummed.  But what does sweeten the deal a bit is the thought that if my kid wants to and feels ready he can start going to college at 16.  He really loves that idea.  He isn't bothered by the idea of the TASC. 

[Hilltopmom]

Ask about the bills on the NYHeN yahoo list, they come up there occasionally.

 

It sounds like none of them are ever actually going to go anywhere. But, who knows..

[SparklyUnicorn]

I used to be subscribed there, but it was pretty quiet.  We used to have a guy locally who stayed on top of all these things and was a great resource.  But then he moved far away.  Bummer...

 

Some people flat out give out the wrong information too.  Once someone claimed that we were required to use their forms.  I pointed it out to her exactly in the regs that one does not need to use their forms and you know what she did?  She didn't post my message because she was a mod. Instead she responded to me personally and said it's required and even if not it's just better to go along with it to not make waves.  So she basically didn't allow anyone to challenge her on her (incorrect) statements making it seem like she must be correct. 

 

Grrr