Please explain double majors to me?

[Mom22ns]

There has been so much response to this thread and much of it relates better to the OP than mine will, but I'm going to go ahead and throw in ds's experience.

 

We were shocked when we looked at his college catalog and saw how few hours were required in his major for a BA. The school allows double-dipping, and a majority of students seem to have at least a double major. There are majors this isn't true of (of course), but it is for many. Ds started with a writing major and has added a multi-media production degree. They have very little overlap, but he will be able to complete them both in 4 years without any heavy course loads. He did have 18 hours of credit from transfer, AP, and CLEP. 

 

When i was in college, I was a science major and had no free courses outside of electives in my major. I only took 9 credits in when I started, but double majoring would have required at least an extra year.

 

My take on all of this is that the relative ease or difficulty of a double major varies by both college and major. For some, it is a breeze. For others it is a real challenge. I disagree about not doing it because students should go deep not wide. Some students may be ready for depth and be very singularly focused. However, others are still in exploration mode. All of ds's aspirations will benefit most from breadth of study, not depth. I can see where this too varies by student and future plans, but I don't think depth is the only acceptable answer. Far from it.

[quark]

Thank you for adding your thoughts Debbie! I found them helpful and reassuring!

[Arch at Home]

My take on all of this is that the relative ease or difficulty of a double major varies by both college and major. For some, it is a breeze. For others it is a real challenge. I disagree about not doing it because students should go deep not wide. Some students may be ready for depth and be very singularly focused. However, others are still in exploration mode. All of ds's aspirations will benefit most from breadth of study, not depth. I can see where this too varies by student and future plans, but I don't think depth is the only acceptable answer. Far from it.

 

I agree with this also. My dd will be graduating from high school with 64 credits but most likely will still be in the exploration mode. It would be counterproductive for us to push her to identify one major let alone multiple as a freshman. I truly believe that she has many more rabbit holes yet to follow and each will be ultimately beneficial.

[JoanHomeEd]

He is (I think!). DS met him a week+ ago during a math major shadow day! And thought he sounded like a really cool prof! DS was also fortunate enough to sit in a class taught by Denis Auroux (of MIT OCW fame). 

Really!? He's retired  :crying: 

The only thing I know is that he had made some serious important contribution wrt the proofing of Fermat's last theorem.

 

Woo hoo! Denis Auroux, the speed-eraser  and beloved prof from MIT...

 

Okie, back to normal programming.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Coming in late to this thread (thanks Joan!).

 

Joan asked about my dd's experiences integrating different interests/majors in college. From the time she was a little girl, I called her my 'math & Latin' kid. She was enthusiastic about both subjects during her school years; both subjects scratched the same itch in her mind and offered lots of mental puzzling. She went off to college intending to be a math major with a possible minor in Classics (or art, or computer science, or design, or...) She (like her mom) has the curse of too many interests :glare:

 

Well, she ended up taking the honors intro courses in math during her freshman year, and then the next year she took the honors intro sequence in Computer Science. While she still loved these subjects, neither really lit a fire under her. She decided that she really did not want to do grad school in math, nor did she want to work at a programming career like her older sibling. Meanwhile she kept up her Latin studies (required for her NLE scholarship) and added in Greek, along with courses in ancient history, archaeology, art, and mythology. She did a term abroad in the ICCS center in Rome.

 

In the end, she graduated with a major in Classics and minors in both math and computer science, so no double degree. It served her well, in that the communications skills and ability to form clear, logical arguments learned in the Classics classroom apply everyday in her current work on staff at AoPS. And curiously enough, AoPS was much more concerned with what she knew than what degree she held. The interview process did not involve sending transcripts & GPAs, but instead concentrated on submitting samples of original math problem writing, giving a lecture in front of their staff (which they tried to pick apart!), and taking on-the-spot exams in math and CS on her interview day. And they wanted to also hear from any of her college year employers and extracurricular advisors as to stuff like work ethic, communication, & leadership ability. Can you tell that I was a little concerned about her initial decision not to add a STEM degree?! LOL, she was right in her decision all along, but I still worried like a mom!

 

Overall, I think that one major in college, done well & pursued beyond the basic requirements, is the most important goal. Extra majors are nice & can be useful in certain situations, but are not necessary nor always helpful. I agree with Butler that for a kid interested in a pure math research career, extra math coursework (grad level if appropriate) and REU or other research experience are key to preparing for grad school.

 

For myself (math PhD) I did pursue dual degrees as an undergraduate at Rochester. But that was because I realized that my initial choice, chemical engineering, wasn't a terribly good fit for me. I'd always loved math, but never thought I'd go to graduate school when I was starting out. Math is usually one of the easier majors to double up on, which I decided to do during my junior year. My interests have always been on the applied side, so having double degrees was useful in my case, especially when working in applied math modelling R&D at DuPont. The chem eng background helped me immensely in talking to the engineers in different parts of the company.

 

For quark: I wouldn't worry too much yet for your son! Start out with math (or whatever he decides on) and concentrate on doing his best there. Add in delight-based coursework in literature or whatever...he may, like many of us, find some new passion during his college years. It's a process that can't always be planned in advance. He will find his own individual route through all of these decisions. :)

 

Edited April 28, 2016 by Kathy in Richmond

[Kathy in Richmond]

Just talked with my daughter, who wanted me to add that if your son is considering a double major or if he's at all undecided, she'd suggest trying to explore various departments of interest during freshman year.

 

Though he might change his mind later, if he takes at least some of the intro/required classes in the areas he might want to double major in early on, it'll give him more flexibility. Waiting till junior year might just be a little too late. (not that she found herself in that situation; lol!)

[Lawyer&Mom]

I knew two physics and philosophy double majors at Berkeley. It can be done. Both came in with a lot of credits, which certainly helped with the unit cap. I've never heard of a required minor at the UCs, so I don't think that will be an issue.

[Grantmom]

In general, I'd agree with this statement, but as always look at your situation. For people whose grad school interests are truly cross-disciplinary, double-majoring is definitely the way to go. For example, my dd just earned her Ph.D. in materials science with a focus on art conservation. Nearly everyone in her research group double-majored in chemistry and art history as an undergrad.

I love hearing about these interesting combinations and what people are doing! It's so exciting to think about the possibilities our kids have in front of them. I never would have thought about how chemistry and art conservation would be related, but that is such an interesting and important topic.

[quark]

Thank you for sharing and also asking your DD Kathy! And thank you Joan for reaching out to Kathy!

 

Always grateful for the support DS and I receive from all of you. He is learning a lot what his options are and you guys are teaching me so much about guiding my young man.

 

As an aside he is wrapping up his DE course at the uni in the next 2 weeks. It has been a commuting challenge but what an amazing opportunity for him to learn what's in store for his future! He really learned by doing and learned a lot about himself too in the process.

[Arcadia]

Following because my oldest is keen to double or triple major but with lots of overlap.

 

I never would have thought about how chemistry and art conservation would be related, but that is such an interesting and important topic.

My girlfriend did her bachelors in chemistry, then her employer (museum) sponsored her postgrad art conservation course in London. Her job is to preserve and restore old paintings which she love since she is very detailed oriented.

[ErinE]

Many schools have a core curriculum. If the degrees are literature and math, I would make sure the core curriculum classes meet requirements for the literature degree. I double majored in complementing degrees and earned an additional certification, but I could have graduated a semester early with two summer internships; I chose to spend my last semester abroad instead. The key elements that helped me were:

 

* I went to a state school where transferring credits was easier

* I entered school with 18 hours by taking AP exams

* I never took less than 15 hours (until my last semester) - 12 hours was a full time student 

* I took summer school once, but I took 12 hours, 3 classes total where most students only took 2

* Like Regentrude's daughter, I mapped out my school plan on a spreadsheet, making sure I met the requirements for both majors

* I revised my spreadsheet every semester - if one class wasn't available, I would substitute another

* I kept my schedule tight. I would take all morning classes and work in the afternoon, using the evenings for study. Or I would work in the morning and take classes all afternoon into the evening. My first semester in college my schedule was all over the place, and I vowed I wouldn't do it again.

* Especially helpful, I could register early as a student worker and my advisers could force me into classes to fit my schedule

 

I was also a student athlete for a year and had leadership roles in student organizations. So I was busy, but it wasn't anything that a dedicated, studious adult can't handle.

Edited April 29, 2016 by ErinE

[Myra]

My son will be graduating next week with a BA dual major in economics and classics.  The former being just for fun and the later is his true passion.  He's been accepted into a classics masters program this Fall with hopes on eventually getting a PhD in classics.

 

But he had to map out his courses starting right away his freshman year.  As it was, he only had one elective in the four years of undergraduate work. 

 

My youngest was undecided on a major until this semester - his second semester his sophomore year. There is no way he could complete a dual major and still graduate in 4 years so instead he'll get one major and one minor. 

 

Myra

 

Edited to add:  I would advise any college student, whether dual major or not, to meet with an advisor to map out the sequence.  Dual majors should also meet with an advisor from each department. Be careful to check out the college's CAPP report (or whatever they call it at your school) to make sure the courses are being recorded correctly for each major. My son had a problem where the computer-generated report didn't correctly identify the coursework under the right requirement heading.  He had to go to the registrar to straighten it out. Remember, your college kid is his/her best own advocate.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Myra

[flyingiguana]

One thing to keep in mind -- don't get so hung up on finishing the 2nd major that it keeps the student from taking other classes that might be of more interest and use.

 

And a second major in a related field (say, math when one is already doing physics) may not be as interesting to a future employer as having experience or classes in other areas outside those 2 majors.  If getting the math second major means the student has less computer experience, for example, then I'd doubt whether that was a wise decision.  (Might not be the best example, if most math depts are moving more toward applied math in recent years, but I could see this having happened to me when I was an undergrad if I'd gone this route). 

 

There's so much overlap between related majors already that the 2nd major may not give as much added value as one might think.

 

And if the two majors are in completely different fields, I think one has to think about whether taking ALL the classes for both is really necessary for the career path the student is interested in.  If the goal is grad school, you really don't need a full major in the area.  If the student has taken most of the classes for the major, that's usually good enough for grad school (so long as they have a bachelor's degree in SOME area and most of the core curriculum for the other). 

 

I think what this means is that there is some flexibility with the second area (if the second major isn't fully completed) and it might be worth taking advantage of that.  For whatever reason presents itself.

 

[Dana]

I got a double major in math and English at UCSB in the early 90s. I entered with sophomore standing due to AP and cc courses. UCSB didn't have minors, so that made the double major an easier choice. I don't recall ever meeting with an advisor though....

 

We had a few people who double majored in math and music.

 

Be sure to look at Regent's scholarships! I got one at UCSB and it was really helpful. It gave me graduate standing for registration, so I never worried about not getting my classes. It also met any financial need without loans, so that was pretty cool too :)

[Crimson Wife]

I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.  While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts.  (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

 

I totally disagree with this advice, especially if the primary area of interest is not a marketable degree. My DH loved history (undergrad) and public policy (grad), but what actually got him jobs have been the double-major & dual degree of Electrical Engineering (undergrad) and Business Admin (grad).

 

There are TONS of unemployed/underemployed graduates who regret not doing a 2nd major in something marketable.

[quark]

I'm going to point out that Cal Newport argues against double majors in his book How to Win at College.  He believes college is a time to go deep, not broad.  While there are plenty of examples of successful double majors in this thread, you may want to read more about his thoughts.  (His latest book is actually called Deep Work, so you know where is biases are.)

 

Does he say this somewhere else in his book? I just ordered a used copy and it arrived today. I'm perusing it randomly. Chapter 38 advises tacking on an extra major or minor. E.g. in the last para (page 95) he says:

 

If you are going to take the same basic number of classes during your four years of college, no matter what you decide to study, you might as well squeeze as many concentrations as possible out of your experience.

 

FWIW I'm not married to the idea of >1 major. I'm just researching in order to help DS when the time comes. It is eventually his decision. So far though I am not really impressed with Newport's How to Win at College. I'm sure he has some great ideas but nothing has really jumped out at me that is different from the type of things we talk about with DS anyway. I could be wrong. Like I said, I'm just reading random chapters and pre-reading/ skimming ToC, snippets here and there. Or maybe I should read one of his other books?

[daijobu]

Does he say this somewhere else in his book? I just ordered a used copy and it arrived today. I'm perusing it randomly. Chapter 38 advises tacking on an extra major or minor. 

Wow.  I just pulled my copy from the shelf, and I sure did get that one wrong.  

 

So I tried to figure out where I came up with patently wrong information and I found the reason.  He actually advocates for this on his blog, not his book.  

 

I hope you still find the book interesting.   

[Bluegoat]

One thing to keep in mind -- don't get so hung up on finishing the 2nd major that it keeps the student from taking other classes that might be of more interest and use.

 

And a second major in a related field (say, math when one is already doing physics) may not be as interesting to a future employer as having experience or classes in other areas outside those 2 majors.  If getting the math second major means the student has less computer experience, for example, then I'd doubt whether that was a wise decision.  (Might not be the best example, if most math depts are moving more toward applied math in recent years, but I could see this having happened to me when I was an undergrad if I'd gone this route). 

 

There's so much overlap between related majors already that the 2nd major may not give as much added value as one might think.

 

And if the two majors are in completely different fields, I think one has to think about whether taking ALL the classes for both is really necessary for the career path the student is interested in.  If the goal is grad school, you really don't need a full major in the area.  If the student has taken most of the classes for the major, that's usually good enough for grad school (so long as they have a bachelor's degree in SOME area and most of the core curriculum for the other). 

 

I think what this means is that there is some flexibility with the second area (if the second major isn't fully completed) and it might be worth taking advantage of that.  For whatever reason presents itself.

 

Yes, I think that looking at the major rather than the classes can get to be like seeing the forest but not the trees.

 

A friend of mine who I studied classics with was a classics major on;y.  Her plan was to be a doctor.  So her electives were drawn from a variety of the sciences, but not enough from any one to constitute a major.  THough if you looked at her overall transcript you could say she was a sort of science/classics major.

[Crimson Wife]

There can also be credentialism working against students who take classes but don't do a formal major. Most of the classes I'm taking for my Communicative Disorders 2nd bachelor's are things I could have taken at my 1st alma mater pieced together from various departments- linguistics, human biology, psychology, etc. But in order to get a license as a Speech & Language Pathology Assistant in my state requires either a bachelor's in CSD + the 2 clinical SLPA courses OR a full associate's in SLPA. Simply having the classes on the transcript is not enough- it actually has to state that I've earned a bachelor's in CSD.

 

Because I am doing my 2nd bachelor's concurrently, I will wind up taking an extra 2 SLPA courses (1 pre-req and 1 co-req), but it is a lot fewer courses than doing the entire associate's.

[quark]

Wow.  I just pulled my copy from the shelf, and I sure did get that one wrong.  

 

So I tried to figure out where I came up with patently wrong information and I found the reason.  He actually advocates for this on his blog, not his book.  

 

I hope you still find the book interesting.   

 

Thank you so much for pointing me to the link! :thumbup: I had wondered before about Cal Newport but hadn't read his work. I do think his words would be helpful for some people...hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all. Thanks again!

[daijobu]

Thank you so much for pointing me to the link! :thumbup: I had wondered before about Cal Newport but hadn't read his work. I do think his words would be helpful for some people...hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all. Thanks again!

 

No, I felt bad that I had prompted you to purchase a book that you didn't otherwise want.  His blog is very interesting, and he makes excellent points.  YMMV, because plenty of students mentioned in this thread did not follow his advice and are quite successful.  

[Nan in Mass]

My sons have used two strategies for choosing classes other than major/minor requirements or interests.  One is to take classes which lead to a certificate, like diving or welding, or a license, like EMT.  The other is to use the classes to do the hard beginning work of something you know you are going to want to pursue later, like taking music theory classes.  (They are STEM majors with fairly good job prospects upon graduating so they don't need to double up a love with a career option.)

 

Nan

[Arcadia]

Saw this on ABC7 9pm news and thought of your son's math love.

 

"Top graduating senior finds nirvana in pure math" http://news.berkeley.edu/2016/05/03/medalist2016/