High Cost of College Remedial Courses

[JoJosMom]

I stumbled across this interesting article on NPR's website, Taking High School Courses In College Costs Students And Families Nearly $1.5 Billion.

[JoJosMom]

That doesn't surprise me. My sil not only teaches Math 99, but now teaches Math 98. When she first started, I looked through the text--it was what my 5th grader was doing!

 

:huh:

 

That's awful!

[Serenade]

That doesn't surprise me. My sil not only teaches Math 99, but now teaches Math 98. When she first started, I looked through the text--it was what my 5th grader was doing!

 

 

How do people like this get into college?

 

How do they pass the SAT/ACT?  Are exceptions made, or do they just get lucky?  I do think with some of the test-taking strategies promoted for the SAT/ACT, a student can get by without really understanding the math.  In fact, with some of the strategies I was reading, students were actively encouraged NOT to use the math, because it would take too long.  

[MarkT]

related:

http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/04/23/401216144/to-get-more-students-through-college-give-them-fewer-choices

 

IMHO we push way too many folks into the standard college path where they would be much better off in a vocational path.

[MotherOfBoys]

I almost failed my ACT (didn't take it seriously) but I did awsome on the college given placement tests and went into 2nd year classes and higher. The university cared more about the placement tests and could make money if you came unprepared for college.

[MarkT]

How do people like this get into college?

 

How do they pass the SAT/ACT?  Are exceptions made, or do they just get lucky?  I do think with some of the test-taking strategies promoted for the SAT/ACT, a student can get by without really understanding the math.  In fact, with some of the strategies I was reading, students were actively encouraged NOT to use the math, because it would take too long.  

Community College is usually open admission no SAT/ACT needed.

[prairiewindmomma]

I read a NPR piece yesterday on parent's perception of their student's performance....the Lake Wobegon effect.

 

One snippet in the piece mentioned that only half of all students in a given grade are actually performing on or above level. In other words, half are not, and yet they are still getting moved forward, grade after grade.

 

It would be fascinating if an exit exam was required for high school graduation. I imagine that rates would plummet.

[Tsuga]

I stumbled across this interesting article on NPR's website, Taking High School Courses In College Costs Students And Families Nearly $1.5 Billion.

 

Yes, it's tragic.

 

And many of those courses are not in financial-aid eligible programs! So we see a lot of kids who are poor testers but who can actually do the work because they are diligent and fine without the test pressure, dropping out of college because they can't pay cash for remediation.

 

At our college, if you only are taking basic education or remediation for a workforce program, you have to pay cash.

 

You can get financial aid for some remediation if you are going to do an AA but many students don't realize that.

 

 

 

How do people like this get into college?

 

The person in the article was going to American University so that wasn't CC and the answer is I have NO idea. Maybe they are in music programs, sports programs, or for some of the students perhaps they have great high school grades and SAT scores for their zip code (so it appears that they are ambitious and hard working, but poorly educated). I can see how a religious college would want to give them a chance.

[Tsuga]

:huh:

 

That's awful!

 

That's also really low-level math for a community college course calling itself 098 assuming that the poster's son is not working approximately two-three grade levels ahead.

 

Here is a nearby college's 085 course:

 

https://www.bellevuecollege.edu/classes/All/MATH/085

 

Okay, some fifth graders are doing that, but it is NOT fifth grade math.

 

The 080 series in our colleges is generally Algebra spread out over three courses to ease students in. It's aimed at students with learning disabilities who just need to get their college-level math in and older students who forgot everything.

 

https://www.bellevuecollege.edu/classes/All/MATH/098

[Arcadia]

It would be fascinating if an exit exam was required for high school graduation. I imagine that rates would plummet.

California had a high school exit exam requirement to get a high school diploma instead of a high school certificate. It is not hard to pass.

 

Math sample

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/math08rtq.pdf

 

Language arts sample

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/hs/documents/ela08rtq.pdf

 

Results summary report

http://cahsee.cde.ca.gov/2014-15summaryresults.pdf

[prairiewindmomma]

So, both of those samples are junior high level work, imo. Is the problem that we're not requiring enough of our high school classes in order to truly be prepared for college level work?  Is the problem that too many students are going on to university when perhaps they should be diverted onto other paths?  How is it that so many students are accepted and then inadequately prepared?  Shouldn't the bar be at the door into university work?

[OneStepAtATime]

Personally, at least locally, I think the biggest issue with kids being inadequately prepared higher up is a really poor foundation at the beginning.  Kids are being forced to do more and more "clerical" math with worksheets here, and at younger and younger ages, including 4k programs where many don't even have the concept of quantity down yet, much less associating quantity with number symbols.  They "sort of" get how to make the numbers look right on the page by Middle School but many genuinely not understand the concept behind it.  As with another thread, there are also teachers out there that may not even understand that 2 groups of 3 items each is the same as 2 X 3.  The concept has been disassociated from the algorithm.  They may even make it through High School level math with a passing grade but still not really understand what they are doing.  Then they hit college and don't have the foundation they need.

 

(And FWIW, just because a child struggles with math I do not believe that means they are not college material.  Should everyone be tracked into college?  No.  There are many bright individuals who would do beautifully taking other paths.  I don't think students should be tracked into another path, though, just because of a weakness in one academic area.)

[Tsuga]

So, both of those samples are junior high level work, imo. Is the problem that we're not requiring enough of our high school classes in order to truly be prepared for college level work?  Is the problem that too many students are going on to university when perhaps they should be diverted onto other paths?  How is it that so many students are accepted and then inadequately prepared?  Shouldn't the bar be at the door into university work?

 

The problem is really complex. We get people who were tracked into vocational paths in high school based on behavior, but who want to get an education later. So like, they might have had a bad family life and no support because they didn't see any opportunities, but later on they figure it out. We have a few students each year accepted to the top universities in the nation for science, into highly competitive programs, who started in developmental (algebra) level courses. Because they weren't stupid, their community (school, parents) just didn't have faith in them and didn't encourage them.

 

Then you have another issue which is that some schools quite simply do not provide a good education. Particularly in highly segregated areas, where they are so busy dealing with behavioral issues, I don't know if you've read Heigh Ho's posts but she lives in a total ghetto. It's tragic. No calculus, no nothing. All they have is test prep. And her stories of student behavior are terrifying. Honestly I cannot imagine staying in that area if I had any choice. I don't know where it is but my guess is somewhere that is mainly inhabited by very poor people who are dependent on restricted state funds in large part to fund their schools. Those kids will not be college ready.

 

Then you have the issue of asynchronous development. A lot of our CS majors could not write a paper if you offered them a million dollars. It's pathetic. Likewise, I have seen early education majors who cannot math their way out of a wet paper bag, beyond arithmetic. I used to tutor logic. I was always amazed. But then you'd see their work in their field and it would be great! These people are not stupid. So if we demand that everyone have a well-rounded education and we're going to have higher ed for a variety of majors we will have to accept that some of our best engineers are going to get through pretty basic English 101 courses with, uh, barely passable English skills. And vice-versa, we need PE teachers but some of them will not be acing Math 141. We will get them through Trig and symbolic logic and we will let them teach PE.

 

Finally, you have the problem of "no, we can't just have people doing vocational work" because essentially, we as a society decided at some point that getting that piece of paper would be your ticket to a living wage. A job that allowed you not to be on government assistance, a job that allowed you to buy a house on a 30 year mortgage, a job that would allow you to pay off student loans and drive a car and support a family. That is why there are so many vocational paths, essentially, at colleges and universities. From teaching to computer science to environmental science to the MBA, these are professional-technical paths. The main thing that makes them valuable is the reputation of the college that administers them. And yet, rich people don't want their kids to be in a vocational path, and historical injustice means that we don't want people who are poor not to have access to college because they've been in segregated schools, because that affects their lifetime earnings. So there you have it, everybody goes to college.

[daijobu]

Some kids have no idea that they are even in remedial classes when they arrive at college.  They think with their As and Bs in high school they are college ready.  Then after 1 or 2 years of taking remedial classes, they learn they haven't even made progress toward a degree.  

[JoJosMom]

Some kids have no idea that they are even in remedial classes when they arrive at college.  They think with their As and Bs in high school they are college ready.  Then after 1 or 2 years of taking remedial classes, they learn they haven't even made progress toward a degree.  

 

Add grade inflation into the mix (at the college level) and things get really messy.

[Dmmetler]

One of the colleges I've visited offers a math class using Saxon Algebra 1/2. So not just middle school level skills, but a middle school level textbook. However, that particular school also has a lot of students who are non-traditional and serves much the same niche as a community college, despite also having 4 year and graduate programs. They also give merit scholarships down to a 26 ACT and full tuition/fees down to a 30.

[shawthorne44]

Some kids have no idea that they are even in remedial classes when they arrive at college.  They think with their As and Bs in high school they are college ready.  Then after 1 or 2 years of taking remedial classes, they learn they haven't even made progress toward a degree.  

 

And they SHOULD be. 

[Reefgazer]

I had a student who couldn't multiply 7x7 in her head, and when I told her not to save her math reqs for the last semester because it might give her trouble, she said she had already passed her math courses!  I asked her how, and she replied "They let us use a calculator".  So I brought this up in a casual convo to an acquaintance of mine who teaches math at the same "college", and she said they should be allowed to use a calculator.  I argued that if some of these kids are transferring their math credits to a 4-year institution, the class should reflect the appropriate level of math.  She said it didn't matter because "most of these kids aren't going to set the world on fire, they're going to be stuck in a back room adding columns of numbers anyway".  The problem isn't the students; it's the administrators and instructors at the high school level and college level that think math and reading illiteracy is acceptable.

[Reefgazer]

Before the school can officially admit them, all students should need to take a basic math and literacy test.  If they are not up to college level standards, they should be given a document to read and sign that tells them this, notifies them of their proficiency level, gives them an estimate of how much longer and more expensive college will be due to remedial, non-credit classes, and informs them of free/low-cost resources to bring their math/reading levels up to par.  At least this will let them know straight-up what they are in for. 

Some kids have no idea that they are even in remedial classes when they arrive at college.  They think with their As and Bs in high school they are college ready.  Then after 1 or 2 years of taking remedial classes, they learn they haven't even made progress toward a degree.  

 

[Arcadia]

She said it didn't matter because "most of these kids aren't going to set the world on fire, they're going to be stuck in a back room adding columns of numbers anyway".

Excel and Oracle would do that easily including generating the reports :(

 

From prealgebra and up, school teachers generally do not care if students use calculators exclusively.

 

We had problems with cashiers who can't add when the POS bill us wrongly and we need the receipt adjusted, but most would wipe out their smartphones to use the calculator function after trying to calculate mentally.

 

Lots of my accountant/auditor friends are actually great at mental math. So is my mortgage broker.

[learning456]

Some kids have no idea that they are even in remedial classes when they arrive at college.  They think with their As and Bs in high school they are college ready.  Then after 1 or 2 years of taking remedial classes, they learn they haven't even made progress toward a degree.  

 

My story: I was an A/B Honor Roll student all through high school. I took 4 years of "college prep" math, including Trig. I did not perform so hot on the SAT, but was accepted into a state university. I had no clue you were even to prepare for the SAT (this was years ago). The university had its own math/reading placements tests. I placed into their "remedial" Algebra I class or whatever it was called. I had to take 8 semester hours of Algebra I/II before I could precede to math classes that would count toward my major. During the initial advising meeting I was told that it did not matter what I took in high school and what grades I had received. The university only cared about how a future student performed on the school's specific math exam. These courses are big,easy $$$ for schools. Of course, I learned a lesson from this situation and will totally be on the lookout for all the red tape when my children are in college. 

[Arcadia]

During the initial advising meeting I was told that it did not matter what I took in high school and what grades I had received. The university only cared about how a future student performed on the school's specific math exam.

My social circle was always told to prep for placement tests and also to hit the books before matriculation week starts in college. That is to make sure we don't have brain fog when college term officially starts.

[Targhee]

I think the various problems being spoken of on this thread all point back to something: there is no standardized education. You simply can't do it. You can't reach everybody, teach everybody, and evaluate everybody in the same way! We need to move away from standardization and towards personalization. I know there are obstacles to this, but honestly, I think it is the only viable solution.

[Targhee]

Let me qualify that I don't mean that we need one on one tutoring necessarily, but I mean individual attention and personalization of education to teach students, track students towards college/vocational/trade work, assess students, and ensure they have the skills necessary before moving beyond certain points (like beyond school grades, on to college, on to grad school, on to trade school, etc.).

Edited April 23, 2016 by Targhee

[Joker]

Well, I was told I would have to take remedial math classes when I first attempted to go to college. Fast forward a few years and I was married to dh, a Marine. The college on base allowed me to take college Algebra and I received an A. I fully went back to school years later and they accepted that grade. I did extremely well later in statistics, micro and macro economics, financial accounting classes, and science classes. I often wonder about how accurate those placement tests are (or if it's all about the money).

Edited April 23, 2016 by Joker

[Beebug123]

​I too had a lower math SAT score and couldn't pass the entrance exam and had to take a remedial math course in college. I had plenty of high math in high school (honors) and took several AP courses. I scored high honors on the golden state biology exam. But the placement exam was a lot lower and I honestly couldn't remember some of the basic things. I went on to pass all of my college math classes easily. I took a statistics class that I never even opened the book, actually sold it back still in the shrink wrap, and I scored perfect 100% on every exam. I also took calculus as well. If I remember correctly we weren't allowed a calculator for the exam and I had been used to using graphing calculators (remember TI-87s?). My math score was only 10 points off and it if I had had that score I didn't have to take the exam and in turn I could've taken any college level courses. I too didn't know anything about prep classes and had NO instruction whatsoever before I sat for the SATs. Of course I learned from that and took the prep courses for my other exams later down the road.

[Carrie12345]

While I don't think it's right to graduate kids and tell them they're ready for college when they're not, I absolutely want remedial classes to exist.  Perhaps they don't belong in a typical 4-year college, but they certainly have their place in community colleges, which are supposed to serve the whole community, not just the 18-21s.  People should have a place to go if/when they decide they're ready to try formal education again, whether they screwed off as a kid, or have more difficulty learning (or both.)

 

Of course, transparency and intent on the schools' (high schools and colleges) is important.  The whole "You're done!  But not really" stuff is BS.

[MarkT]

While I don't think it's right to graduate kids and tell them they're ready for college when they're not, I absolutely want remedial classes to exist.  Perhaps they don't belong in a typical 4-year college, but they certainly have their place in community colleges, which are supposed to serve the whole community, not just the 18-21s.  

Yes but they should not be traditional lecture courses.  For remedial math, a combination of online and one-to-one tutoring would probably better serve the students. No grade given - just need to get to a certain proficiency level to move on to College Algebra.

[Wheres Toto]

Way back when I went to college, I had the opposite problem.  In high school I took three years of Algebra/Trig and a year of Geometry.  I dropped Calculus my senior year and took no math that year.  I did very well on the college's math placement test (I was always a good test taker) and they told me to skip College Trig and go right into Calculus.  I  struggled greatly in the class and barely passed (I think the prof took pity on me).   That was the last math class I ever would have to take, except I took time off and returned with different majors to different schools.    I ended up taking classes that were at the Algebra level or below (a mixed math class for education majors was one).   The bigger problem was my original major was Biology/Pre-Vet.  That experience in Calculus would not have been adequate for me to pass Physics or Organic Chemistry.  I would have been much better served by taking at least College Trig, and maybe even College Algebra, despite my test scores.  But I was barely 18 and 3,000 miles from home, what did I know?

 

I took the SAT's my sophomore year, didn't prepare at all, got a decent score so didn't bother taking them again.  I probably would have gotten a lot more financial aid if I had worked harder at it, and maybe I could have afforded more than three semesters of college.

[JoJosMom]

I think the various problems being spoken of on this thread all point back to something: there is no standardized education. You simply can't do it. You can't reach everybody, teach everybody, and evaluate everybody in the same way! We need to move away from standardization and towards personalization. I know there are obstacles to this, but honestly, I think it is the only viable solution.

 

Amen, and amen.  I couldn't like this enough.

[MarkT]

FYI

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/02/29/too-many-community-college-students-are-placing-remedial-classes-studies-find

[daijobu]

 

That's a failure to read the college catalog, the degree course list, of parents and counselors. I've seen *does not apply towards a degree or *remedial all over. I suppose that is because kids are taking remedial and think they are making progress. 

 

 

 

 

This anecdote about the student who didn't know he was in remedial classes,  I heard on a radio interview a while ago.  I'm pretty sure she was underserved minority, and in retrospect she probably wasn't the one taking the initiative to enroll in cc, but maybe there was a special program to get her enrolled in a college, any college, after high school graduation.   Then a year or two passes, and she realizes she isn't any closer to getting a degree.  

 

These are students who just aren't getting a lot of support at home, probably because they are first in their family to attend college.  Their family hardly knows what an education looks like, so the schools can pull the wool over their eyes.  

[Beth S]

Our sons have tutored in our local community college's remedial Math program, while in their senior year of high school.

The school has an excellent program (for both math & writing) which is a hybrid of online & in class work.

I think it's been a good experience for everyone. 

Lots of "ah-ha" moments where they finally understand math concepts that have puzzled them for most of their adult life.

 

The students are mostly non-traditional, trying to re-enter college, needing to improve their math skills.

It's different than what this article describes.

These students did not score high enough on the ACT Math subscore to meet the pre-reqs for the entry math class.

 

I believe any of these students are welcome to re-take the ACT or our local COMPASS test, and if they score high enough, can drop the remedial class.

(Very do-able, if they are motivated for self-study . . . but the remedial classes give more instruction & accountability.)

It works well for a lot of non-traditional students.

 

[luuknam]

Before the school can officially admit them, all students should need to take a basic math and literacy test.  If they are not up to college level standards, they should be given a document to read and sign that tells them this, notifies them of their proficiency level, gives them an estimate of how much longer and more expensive college will be due to remedial, non-credit classes, and informs them of free/low-cost resources to bring their math/reading levels up to par.  At least this will let them know straight-up what they are in for. 

 

That would assume that someone with sub-par literacy skills will actually bother to read something before signing it. Most people even with decent literacy skills don't read stuff before signing it. If an advisor hands a student some paperwork, says "sign this", I bet most students would just sign it. Like Plum Crazy said, there are statements all over the catalogs that I've seen stating "remedial" or "does not count toward degree requirements" or w/e, and I've seen a lot of catalogs from different colleges.

 

I think the most useful thing would be for high schools to tell students to not just do what their college advisor tells them to do, but to read the catalog themselves. And if you're ill on the day of a placement test, to advocate for yourself to retake it. (also, to make sure that they only give As and Bs to kids who won't need remedial classes in college, but that takes a lot more reform)

[HS Mom in NC]

My neighbor got her teaching degree a couple of years ago.  She was student teaching with a first grade teacher her last year.  She voiced concerns about the material not being very thorough or rigorous for 1st grade.  The teacher training her said, "Don't worry too much about that.  Not all these kids [6 years old]are college material anyway." The layers of problems that statement indicates are deeply disturbing.

We need to be careful that we don't use the fact that not everyone is college material to justify poor quality K-12 education. Just because someone isn't college material does not justify educating them below senior level standards. Some people are college material but they choose the military or a trade because better fits them in aspects other than academics. 

We also need to have a very real world discussion about which kinds of job training make sense for the future. Which non-professional jobs are realistic options?  Which degrees are realistic options?

The community college my girls attend(ed) made everyone take the same placement test whether you were a minor student taking high school level classes or an adult returning for a second degree. That test determined what classes you were allowed to take and what you tested out of.

[Mom22ns]

I see all over this thread that there is no reason for students to take remedial math in college. I really disagree with this. Just because someone got a lousy high school education is no reason they shouldn't be able to attend college. Now, maybe these classes should only be available at CC's but different colleges have different ideas about what constitutes remedial math. At some schools anything below Calc is remedial. At other, anything below college algebra is remedial.

 

We have a friend (ds's childhood friend) who was/is a foster kid. He changed placements about 6 times during high school and never attended the same school two years in a row. For 3 years he took (and passed) algebra 1, but he never remained at the school long enough to take an EOC exam, so the next school would put him back in algebra 1. He graduated from high school with 3 credits of Algebra 1 :svengo:. Really. It happened. The kid wants to be a computer engineer and actually has the aptitude. He is now in CC and of course had to start with remedial math. It will take him 2 years just to get to Calc 1, but with a math course every semester he can get through a 4 year degree in roughly 4 years. I am thankful for his sake that the terrible education he received in high school can be overcome.

 

Is it sad that our public schools can turn out completely uneducated adults. Very. That is one of the reasons many of us homeschool right? I am still glad these remedial courses are an option. There are many people who are well served by them, for many different reasons. 

[JoJosMom]

I see all over this thread that there is no reason for students to take remedial math in college.

 

 

 

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that remedial classes ought not be available, only that they should not be necessary for so many students, particularly students who graduated with high GPAs.

[8filltheheart]

I have seen posts on this forum where homeschoolers are stating that their DE kids are taking college classes and then when you see the actual title you realize it is really a remedial level course.  If you mention that it is not a college level course, the response is that yes it is b/c it is being taken on a college campus.

 

Just how educated are consumers about what they are actually receiving?  (Perhaps I am skeptical, but I think that there are plenty of clueless people out there.)

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

My kid took a remedial class at cc.  She was 15.  She took English 95 because she choked and skipped the essay in the placement test, which was a bs essay, "Do You Think Human Potential is Limited or Unlimited?" Not an essay for the science/ engineering type person.  She had the option of retaking the essay part 24 hours later or she could take the ENG 95 class.  I talked her out of retaking that part of the test because English classes aren't her strong point and it was her first college experience.  She tested into  College Algebra and Calculus.  She took the ENG 95 class, got an easy A and got no college credit for it.  That's fine. She shouldn't get college credit for it and it was useful because there are lots of minor aged students there. 

I didn't date and issue her homeschool diploma until she had passed her 95 class.  If you need to take the 95 class, you're still in high school for that class.  Her sister, who was 17 at that time, tested into all college level classes, so her homeschool diploma was issued and dated accordingly.  I have to have integrity when I issue a homeschool diploma. The gripe this thread reflects is that most students in colleges taking remedial (high school level classes) have already been issued high school diplomas. (?!?!?)  If only high schools had the integrity to align their classes and tests and issue diplomas in a way that showed each student who earned one is prepared to take college level classes, people wouldn't be so upset about all this.

[daijobu]

I have seen posts on this forum where homeschoolers are stating that their DE kids are taking college classes and then when you see the actual title you realize it is really a remedial level course.  

 

What is the clue in the title that indicates it's remedial?  

[8filltheheart]

How is this defined?  Let's take math, for example.  What is "college level" math?

 

When I attended Trinity University, no math below calculus was offered at that school.  However, my son is about to start at Texas State University where the only math required for his intended degree program is college algebra, which he already did DE at the CC.

 

Is that considered remedial?  According to Trinity University, I suppose it is.  But according to TSU, it isn't.  Now, a class that covers fractions, decimals, and percents... yeah, that's remedial.  But some others?  I think there's too much of a grey area to say, "This is college level" and "This is not college level."

 

 

What is the clue in the title that indicates it's remedial?  

 

When they describe what courses they completed prior to dual enrolling.  Comments like they started DE after alg 1.  I tried to find the recent thread where the student was in 9th or 10th grade and had DE after alg, but I couldn't find it.  

 

I found this one, which isn't exactly like what I was thinking about, but there is a disconnect between what has been completed at home and what is going on at the CC.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/523553-college-algebra-at-cc-should-dd-jump-in/

 

We did not do algebra at home. Older dd began taking classes at c.c. when she was 14; she tested into basic arithmetic, which was fine with me because, you know, she was just 14. :-) She took basic arithmetic and passed; pre-algebra and passed; then algebra 1 (which was college level), algebra 2, and statistics, all of which she aced.

 

Edited April 29, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Arcadia]

What is the clue in the title that indicates it's remedial?

For our local community college it is very easy to tell. Looking at the course description

 

If it says below, I'll be very wary

"Units do not apply toward AA/AS degree. "

 

If it says something like this, I'll let my boys take the course if they want to and can place into it.

"Transfer: CSU: B4, UC. (IGETC: 2) "

 

Example link

http://canadacollege.edu/mathematics/coursedescriptions.php

[rocassie]

I have a friend that is a math professor for a university. Ten years ago when she hired in, she was assigned the "remedial" math classes because that is what all new hires were given as no one really wanted to teach these classes.  She had a few non-traditional students (generally older adults that were returning to college) that did much better than her newly out of high school students.  Her non-traditional students mostly needed a semester refresher of math, but the amount of students coming out of high school that needed remedial math was just "ridiculous" in her opinion.  Alas, she is probably the biggest proponent of us homeschooling given the educational level of the students she gets in her classes (remedial and freshman classes.)  Although now she teaches the upper levels, but still she is sadly disappointed in the quality of math the elementary ed students can do.  If they can't actually do the math, it's hard to teach it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I did not read all the responses.  I think there is another side to this "issue" .  I came across this article that touches upon it:

 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-popular-compass-placement-test-acknowledging-its-predictive-limits

 

Our local CC still uses this test even though it is no longer being supported by the company who makes it.  They don't make everyone take the test.  For example, they will consider other test scores or high school grades.  Some students have been out of school too long for that to count though.   But something they do on top of this to make sure a student absolutely needs to do the remedial stuff is on day one of the remedial class they are given the final exam.  If they pass it they may switch to the higher levels. 

 

The general gist of that article I linked is that possibly these placement tests just aren't the best predictors for success in college level courses. 

 

I took a course last semester and they asked if I had the prerequisite.  I said well I have a BA, but no I did not send for a transcript.   It was a statistics class (Stat 147).  She said well I can check this book to see what the high school prerequisite is that they recommend.  She told me algebra 2.  She wanted to know if I had taken at least that.  I thought oh brother.  I doubt that level of algebra is needed.  Well long story short they let me take what I wanted because I wasn't matriculating (first woman I dealt with didn't know that it did not matter in my case).  So I took the course and really at no point would that level of math be needed for a basic stat's course.  In fact I had just basically finished an algebra 2 course (working with my kid) and I found the level of the stat class to be very low overall.  It's like they are claiming higher levels are needed than are actually needed. 

And my thought cbreeding is that it is possible the older adult students are putting in more effort to get up to speed.  Not so much that they have the more solid math skills to start with.  I found myself far more willing to put in the time than when I was younger.  Sometimes I wish I could take my 41 year old attitude and put it into my 18 year old self and start over. 

[MarkT]

I did not read all the responses.  I think there is another side to this "issue" .  I came across this article that touches upon it:

 

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/06/18/act-drops-popular-compass-placement-test-acknowledging-its-predictive-limits

 

Our local CC still uses this test even though it is no longer being supported by the company who makes it.  

Ditto here at our local CC so this product must be locally installed versus scored by ACT folks.

 

at least one company trying to profit from this:

 

http://www.maplesoft.com/products/placement/compass.aspx

[SparklyUnicorn]

I hesitate to call this a money making scam per se, but I really do believe an element of that is there.  Maybe not so much at CCs.  Since they often take everyone and anyone, I imagine they do get a lot of students who perhaps never took school seriously or who have been out of school for a long time.  It's nice that they have this stuff available.  But how is it that people get into colleges that are more selective than CCs with good enough grades, but supposedly lack basic skills?  And at least at the CC the courses are probably a heck of a lot more affordable.  If I have to take a remedial course that won't count towards anything, I don't want to pay $3000 for it!  $500...ok. 

 

The wording cracks me up, ".....using the renowned ....placement tests"

 

 

[luuknam]

I took a course last semester and they asked if I had the prerequisite.  I said well I have a BA, but no I did not send for a transcript.   It was a statistics class (Stat 147).  She said well I can check this book to see what the high school prerequisite is that they recommend.  She told me algebra 2.  She wanted to know if I had taken at least that.  I thought oh brother.  I doubt that level of algebra is needed.  Well long story short they let me take what I wanted because I wasn't matriculating (first woman I dealt with didn't know that it did not matter in my case).  So I took the course and really at no point would that level of math be needed for a basic stat's course.  In fact I had just basically finished an algebra 2 course (working with my kid) and I found the level of the stat class to be very low overall.  It's like they are claiming higher levels are needed than are actually needed.

 

That said, how did the other students in the class do? I took STAT 1342 (probably the same idea as your stat class) because it was a requirement for neuroscience, and it was like high school stat or maybe even simpler, and didn't require any advanced algebra to do the actual math (prereq I just looked up is College Algebra for the Non-Scientist or College Algebra - probably the same now as then). However, almost all the other students in the class were complaining about how hard it was, failing the class, etc - there were very few As or even Bs, and quite a number of people retaking the class because they'd failed it before. So yeah, IMO, you could do well in the class with just high school algebra 1, but even with a requirement of people having completed college algebra almost everyone struggled. I don't know what to do about that. And it's not like the instructor was bad. I think it was a combination of people believing they suck at math, not spending enough (if any) time on homework, not using the tutoring center if necessary, etc. As an administrator though, what do you when a course has a high failure rate? There are limited things you can do - increasing prereqs is one of the few things you can do.

[Beth S]

What is the clue in the title that indicates it's remedial?  

 

Freshman level college courses are numbered 100 or above.

 

Remedial courses have a course number below 100.

 

(So a PP referred to ENG 95, which is remedial because the course number is below 100.)

 

Just FYI.   And yes, students need to prepare for these placement tests & they need to educate themselves on the PROCESS of getting a degree.  Building a good relationship with your advisers & instructors is key.

[kiana]

We are more selective than a CC, and yet there are plenty of people who are admitted based on good high school grades and place far lower than their grades would indicate. We're talking act-m scores under 16 here, not 'they almost made it'. When I work with them one-on-one, they cannot solve equations of the form 0.5x = 6 (at the beginning of the course). Trust me, if we thought that they had a chance >50% to succeed in college math with some support, we would put them there. 

 

But it is not really their fault that the board of education where they lived allowed them to be denied any semblance of a math education, while systematically lying to them about how they were doing. Why would a student who was getting Bs and Cs in classes that they were told were high school math classes suspect that they were unprepared for university? 

[SparklyUnicorn]

That said, how did the other students in the class do? I took STAT 1342 (probably the same idea as your stat class) because it was a requirement for neuroscience, and it was like high school stat or maybe even simpler, and didn't require any advanced algebra to do the actual math (prereq I just looked up is College Algebra for the Non-Scientist or College Algebra - probably the same now as then). However, almost all the other students in the class were complaining about how hard it was, failing the class, etc - there were very few As or even Bs, and quite a number of people retaking the class because they'd failed it before. So yeah, IMO, you could do well in the class with just high school algebra 1, but even with a requirement of people having completed college algebra almost everyone struggled. I don't know what to do about that. And it's not like the instructor was bad. I think it was a combination of people believing they suck at math, not spending enough (if any) time on homework, not using the tutoring center if necessary, etc. As an administrator though, what do you when a course has a high failure rate? There are limited things you can do - increasing prereqs is one of the few things you can do.

 

I got the impression that most of the class did fairly well.  The class stats were posted publicly to the class.  Not individual scores, but you could compare where you were at with the class overall.  The instructor told us that the school expects to see a bell shaped curve with grades.  Something about keeping their accreditation requires that not every person gets out of their with As and Bs because this might be an indication that it's too easy.  He said this was in contrast to his expectations as a high school math teacher (he also taught high school math).  In high school they want more students getting average and above grades. 

 

But the class i was in was probably a bit different than average over there.  I asked my son what the general age was in his class and he said most were fresh out of high school.  The class I was in was later in the evening and the majority of the students were older adults like me.  In fact there were several much older than me.  If anything prevented someone from not doing fairly well in there it was probably more due to being stretched too thin in their life. 

 

But there were absolutely some "shake your head" moments.  At one point someone asked if we'd be marked down on a test for rounding errors.  He said he isn't testing on rounding so he'd be generous with that because he doesn't expect people to know how to round.  I REALLY hope he was kidding.  He did often say silly things with a very straight face so who can tell.