Tired of NYS

[Blossom'sGirl]

So ds has been accepted to a SUNY school and has earned a full ride scholarship.  I have followed all the requirements for homeschooling him through high school and have planned to get the superintendent sign off at the end of the year.  Yesterday he receives a letter from his college that he is strongly encouraged to take the TASC test as NYS will no longer give tuition assistance to homeschoolers without this requirement.  Since when?  I tried googling the NYS education department and found a few small blurbs about this but it seems to have been slipped in without much notice.

 

Ds called the school and they said that this does not affect his scholarship (assuming the person he talked to knew their stuff), but if he falls below the required GPA he would then need the test to get assistance.  

 

This is all in the name of fairness. Yet if a homeschooler takes the public school regents exams, he or she is also excluded from assistance.  So if we are trying to be "fair" shouldn't everyone be required to pass the same exit exam or am missing something?

 

Also,  I cannot even find where this exam is even available in my area.  We would have to drive at least an hour to get get to a test site.

 

 

 

 

[raindrops]

following...

[Maura in NY]

DS got the same letter, made the same call, got the same confirmation that it does not affect his scholarship because it is merit based. I'm wondering if it's the same school...

 

I drafted up a letter to the school because I'm so annoyed by this, even though it is unlikely to impact him. Not sure if I'm going to send it--I'll have to tone it down a bit first...

 

What is particularly pernicious is that the letter he received said that FEDERAL financial aid would be unavailable to students who go either the superintendent's letter or the 5-Regents route, unless they took the TASC. As far as I know, this is completely untrue, unless there has been some dramatic and secretive change that no one's heard anything about. 

 

(Oh, and this exam is over 7 hours long, BTW.)

 

Here's my rant as it stands right now (that's as far as I got before I was too spittin' mad to continue.)

 

 

​

Hi Deborah, 

My son Brody received a letter from Alfred today concerning financial aid eligibility for homeschoolers in New York State. While I was able to verify with Admissions that this will not impact Brody's Excellence in Education Scholarship because â€‹it is merit aid, not financial aid, I would still like to clarify the reason for the change. As an experienced homeschooler, I am often asked for advice by other homeschooling families, and I want to be sure I give them correct information.

 

On the New York State â€‹Higher Education â€‹Services​ website, it is explicitly stated that​:

 

​"​A home-schooled student is eligible for state aid if they have a letter from the District Superintendent, or the student can take and pass an approved ATB test or the TASC test.​"

​

Reference: https://www.hesc.ny.gov/partner-access/financial-aid-professionals/grants-and-scholarships-questions-and-answers/grants-and-scholarships-ability-to-benefit-questions-and-answers.html

 

I understand that it's possible this information has changed and the website has not been updated, and to be honest, I have never researched this too deeply because my sons would not qualify for New York State TAP or other programs.. If this is the case, and there has been some change to the official position of the the New York State Education Department, I would appreciate it if you could direct me to the appropriate materials so that I can share them with other homeschooling families who are working to make the best educational and financial decisions for their students.

 

In terms of federal financial aid, unless there has been a change since April of last year, the information provided in the letter is incorrect, and if so, is a considerable disservice to families. 

 

Federal requirements for student eligibility for financial aid are spelled out clearly in Title 20 Education §1092 (d), and clarified in Volume 1, Chapter 1 of the 2015-16 FSA Handbook: http://ifap.ed.gov/fsahandbook/attachments/1516Vol1Ch1.pdf

 

On page 4 of this document, it states that a student is eligible to receive Federal Student Aid if the student:

 

• has completed homeschooling at the secondary level as defined by state law; or

• has completed secondary school education in a homeschool setting which qualifies for an exemption from compulsory attendance requirements under state law, if state law does not require a homeschooled student to receive a credential for their education. A student may self-certify on the FAFSA that he has received a high school diploma or high school equivalency certificate or that he has completed secondary school through homeschooling as defined by state law. 

 

This same information is available on the federal government's financial aid website: https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/eligibility/basic-criteria​ and in this letter from the United States Department of Education: ​

http://ifap.ed.gov/dpcletters/GEN1209.html (available on the Information for Financial Aid Professionals section of the US Dept. of Ed website)

 

​I know that not every homeschooler has a list of test scores to support their academic background, and colleges like Alfred can and should use whatever criteria they deem necessary to ascertain whether a student is a good fit for their school. But when it comes to providing information about financial aid, the federal government does not require "proof" of homeschooling beyond parental certification. Unless something has changed in the last twelve months, neither the "5 Regents" option nor the Superintedent's Letter option disqualify a student from receiving financial aid. 

 

Homeschool students are not the same as high school dropouts, and the federal government recognizes this difference--and as far as I can tell, so does New York.

 

​

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Maura in NY

[Blossom'sGirl]

Same school Maura.  I like your letter.  My son would not even let me call because I was so upset and he knows me too well to keep it to myself.  He did very well talking to them.  I hope this gets figured out because I have three more children, and I really want to homeschool highschool with them, but things like this make me want to throw in the towel.

 

Michelle

[anne1456]

This came up earlier this year when some SUNY community colleges said the Superintendent's letter was no longer good enough. Apparently some NY state official wrote a letter in January 2015 which is being misinterpreted by some SUNY schools. Here is the letter:

 

http://www.highered.nysed.gov/kiap/finaid/documents/MemotoCEOs-TAP.pdf

 

The NY state TAP website clearly says the superintendent's letter is good enough, as Maura quoted above.

 

I don't know what the resolution was with the community colleges, but you might want to post this to the NYHEN yahoo group. (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/NYHEN-Support/) They monitor the NY laws pretty closely.

 

I am tempted not to even have my son apply to a SUNY school next year, because they are so ridiculously annoying!

[Starr]

I found the SUNY schools had different requirements one from another so they can't be federal requirements. And why can a student get federal money when going to a private school without taking a GED and not a State School? I only have one left in college but it all seems crazy.

 

Maura, nice letter. I hope it helps!

[Blossom'sGirl]

I also found this at the TAP coach section of the NYS Higher Education Services Corporation:  https://www.hesc.ny.gov/partner-access/financial-aid-professionals/tap-and-scholarship-resources/tap-coach/H.html 

 

There is a section specifically addressing homeschool requirements at the bottom of the page.

 

[mschickie]

This has been a huge mess in NYS this year.  I know that there is a proposed law that should be coming up that will state that a homeschooling diploma is valid in NYS.  I have friends whose son has had major issues with this and he was already doing dual enrollment classes at the school.  I am very thankful that LEAH and HSLDA are really working on this with legislators to hopefully get this resolved soon.

[Liza Q]

Hey - can I ask a related question here? How is that your children were accepted before you received the letter from the superintendent? My daughter applied to a SUNY school this year - FIT - and they told me that they would not process her application unless is was accompanied by the letter. I was not surprised because we have had the same situation with CUNY. We were planning on having her reapply in the summer for the Spring term.

 

I called SUNY Purchase and they told me the same thing. My head is about to explode now.....

[Blossom'sGirl]

Hey - can I ask a related question here? How is that your children were accepted before you received the letter from the superintendent? My daughter applied to a SUNY school this year - FIT - and they told me that they would not process her application unless is was accompanied by the letter. I was not surprised because we have had the same situation with CUNY. We were planning on having her reapply in the summer for the Spring term.

 

I called SUNY Purchase and they told me the same thing. My head is about to explode now.....

 

 

Ds is on a conditional acceptance.  They called me and asked if I would be able to provide that at the end of the school year.

[Liza Q]

Ds is on a conditional acceptance.  They called me and asked if I would be able to provide that at the end of the school year.

 

They wouldn't even offer me that. She has been so bummed that she is dragging her heels pretty badly and I am beginning to worry that she will not actually finish in June. She is insisting that she will take a year off since starting in January would be weird...I told her that if she doesn't finish she will be a DROPOUT and will need to take the TASC test. :cursing:

 

Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Liza Q

[anne1456]

Hey - can I ask a related question here? How is that your children were accepted before you received the letter from the superintendent? My daughter applied to a SUNY school this year - FIT - and they told me that they would not process her application unless is was accompanied by the letter. 

 

When my daughter was applying to SUNYs a few years ago the superintendent gave her a provisional letter, which basically said he expected that he would be able to give her a letter of equivalency in May. All the SUNYs took that as good enough to process her application. And in fact the school she ended up at never asked for the official letter, and I never reminded them (even though I got one.)

[Liza Q]

anne - that is pretty nice. I wonder if I could have done that? Something to think of when my son starts applying!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think we have decided to just take the damn TASC.  I am not happy about this, but it just seems to be the path of least resistance. 

 

I'm tired of NY too!

 

 

[Hilltopmom]

NY really is a hassle. I'm right there with YA. DS is hoping our super won't change her mind about granting letters nor a new super starts before he graduates.

I'm morally opposed to him taking the TASC- he's NOT a drop out! Heck, most of our kids DE their last few years, you can't really call them drop outs.

[SparklyUnicorn]

NY really is a hassle. I'm right there with YA. DS is hoping our super won't change her mind about granting letters nor a new super starts before he graduates.

I'm morally opposed to him taking the TASC- he's NOT a drop out! Heck, most of our kids DE their last few years, you can't really call them drop outs.

 

Well right I am not exactly morally opposed, but if homeschooling is legal then why in the end is it basically not recognized? 

 

Since the super is not required to do it, I can't count on it.  And then what?  The other options actually strike me as being worse. 

[Hilltopmom]

Well right I am not exactly morally opposed, but if homeschooling is legal then why in the end is it basically not recognized?

 

Since the super is not required to do it, I can't count on it. And then what? The other options actually strike me as being worse.

I know, I know, right? It's so frustrating!

Does your district routinely do them with no problems? Hopefully, they'll continue to do so. I do hate counting on it, but for now,thats our plan. Fingers crossed.

My oldest is likely to start at a SUNY, not private, since we have one in our town.

 

I should say philosophically opposed, not morally:)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know, I know, right? It's so frustrating!

Does your district routinely do them with no problems? Hopefully, they'll continue to do so. I do hate counting on it, but for now,thats our plan. Fingers crossed.

My oldest is likely to start at a SUNY, not private, since we have one in our town.

 

I should say philosophically opposed, not morally:)

 

I have asked and asked around and have yet to meet a person who even tried.  So I don't even know. 

 

No I totally understand what you are saying.  I'm still in the planning stages of high school.  I have considered all the options and talked to my kid about what his goals are.  Right now his favorite option is to get the TASC at 16 and then matriculate at a local CC that has excellent transfer agreements.  He wants to go to college early and really this is the only way I can fathom to make that happen. 

 

The 24 credit option would be quite expensive.  The 5 Regents option...I might as well just send him to high school (but he hates that idea). 

 

I have told him the pros and cons.  The pros at this point seem to outweigh the cons. 

[Jen in NY]

I wonder if clep would count toward the 24 credits..... our cc offers them for $30.

 

Another rabbit trail of a NYS homeschool mother's mind ... when my daughter started dual enrollment at the CC they automatically awarded alll of her AP credit. So --- Calc BC, Physics, AP Eng Lang, American Govt, Bio, etc.... right there she's practically at the 24. If we had planned the subjects correctly, couldn't we just have wrapped up the required credits right there? And if so, why don't AP exams count like the Regent's Exams?

 

just wondering out loud....

 

we have a new super this year. :op

Edited April 20, 2016 by Jen in NY

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wonder if clep would count toward the 24 credits..... our cc offers them for $30.

 

Another rabbit trail of a NYS homeschool mother's mind ... when my daughter started dual enrollment at the CC they automatically awarded alll of her AP credit. So --- Calc BC, Physics, AP Eng Lang, American Govt, Bio, etc.... right there she's practically at the 24. If we had planned the subjects correctly, couldn't we just have wrapped up the required credits right there? And if so, why don't AP exams count like the Regent's Exams?

 

just wondering out loud....

 

we have a new super this year. :op

 

I asked about this elsewhere on TWTM and someone said yes.  But I wasn't able to verify that. 

 

Here they charge $80 and they only allow one to take one exam per date.  Although that's at one particular CLEP place.  So potentially I guess one could go elsewhere.  It would just be a pain to coordinate all of that.  The cost is definitely much less than paying for the classes, but the fact they only allow one exam at a time makes it difficult. 

[MarkT]

I . 

 

The 24 credit option would be quite expensive.  The 5 Regents option...I might as well just send him to high school (but he hates that idea). 

 

I have told him the pros and cons.  The pros at this point seem to outweigh the cons. 

Personally I think the NYS Regents Exam program is good.  From what I understand it would not be much different from taking a self-study AP exam for home-schoolers.  All the old tests are out there and especially for Regents math there are a lot of help sites.

 

Of course you have to start this option early.

 

When I went to NYS public schools (a few decades back) the Regents program was one of the tops in the country. I was well prepared for college.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Personally I think the NYS Regents Exam program is good.  From what I understand it would not be much different from taking a self-study AP exam for home-schoolers.  All the old tests are out there and especially for Regents math there are a lot of help sites.

 

Of course you have to start this option early.

 

When I went to NYS public schools (a few decades back) the Regents program was one of the tops in the country. I was well prepared for college.

 

I guess I want the freedom to not teach to their tests.  Otherwise, I might as well send my kid to school.

[anne1456]

I think Regents exams are not as difficult as they used to be, now that everyone takes them. They are certainly not nearly at AP level, at least not the ones I've seen. I thought about having my middle daughter go the Regents test route for equivalency, because she had been in school and passed 3 of the required regents exams already, so she only needed to take two more. But when I talked the community college counselor it was clear they were used to seeing the letter of equivalency, and trying to do something different was going to confuse them. So I just got the letter instead.

 

I find NY rules very annoying. But then I look at the tuition at a SUNY, and compare it to say Penn State tuition, and I am more motivated to jump through their silly hoops.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think Regents exams are not as difficult as they used to be, now that everyone takes them. They are certainly not nearly at AP level, at least not the ones I've seen. I thought about having my middle daughter go the Regents test route for equivalency, because she had been in school and passed 3 of the required regents exams already, so she only needed to take two more. But when I talked the community college counselor it was clear they were used to seeing the letter of equivalency, and trying to do something different was going to confuse them. So I just got the letter instead.

 

I find NY rules very annoying. But then I look at the tuition at a SUNY, and compare it to say Penn State tuition, and I am more motivated to jump through their silly hoops.

 

And I wonder who outside of NY would recognize them. 

 

Plus, my district already misinterprets the regs, and they ignore what is required of them.  I try to picture what they'd be like to deal with in terms of making arrangements for testing.  I know that per the regs they are required to allow it, but they don't follow other things they are required to.  So who knows!

 

Problem with the letter is they aren't required to provide it.  So I don't think it is a good idea to count on it.

[MarkT]

I guess I want the freedom to not teach to their tests.  Otherwise, I might as well send my kid to school.

that's a fair statement - to take the Regents exam you would have to cover the topics on the exam

 

but "teaching to the test" is a fairly new thing - back in my day we spent maybe a week before reviewing material using Regents type questions from previous exams to become familiar with the expected format 

 

now they drill it all year long

 

I had good math teachers they expected us to do very well

[Blossom'sGirl]

that's a fair statement - to take the Regents exam you would have to cover the topics on the exam

 

but "teaching to the test" is a fairly new thing - back in my day we spent maybe a week before reviewing material using Regents type questions from previous exams to become familiar with the expected format 

 

now they drill it all year long

 

I had good math teachers they expected us to do very well

 

I took the regents when I was in high school, but that was when a regents diploma was optional.  I believe that now everyone has to pass them.

 

 

 

Maura - Did you end up sending your letter?

[SparklyUnicorn]

that's a fair statement - to take the Regents exam you would have to cover the topics on the exam

 

but "teaching to the test" is a fairly new thing - back in my day we spent maybe a week before reviewing material using Regents type questions from previous exams to become familiar with the expected format 

 

now they drill it all year long

 

I had good math teachers they expected us to do very well

 

Yeah I once noticed that the local public access channel even has homework help shows.  You can call in with questions.  Or they just cover various topics.  They repeat several times about this or that being on the Regents and it's asked in this or that way.  It's all about the Regents.  For some subjects I would not assume this is a huge problem.  Math is math, for example (barring that they expect some sort of specific way of presenting the answers).  But stuff like history.  Maybe US history is US history, but I think one could easily not focus enough on the stuff that will be tested on.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ok, I was thinking about this some more. What I don't get is why the school insists that be in place before your student enrolls.  The wording of these requirements has to do with being able to graduate and obtain the degree.  If the school is a liberal arts type college/university, then the student would easily have the 24 credit option before graduating.  And then the wording for financial aid in NY says if the student does not have a high school diploma the student must take the ability to benefit test (which is an insanely easy and basic test BTW).

 

So it seems to me a lot of schools are misinterpreting the regulations.  I could see if the school weren't a liberal arts school and the student would not automatically have the 24 credits, but in all instances I heard of problems the school was a liberal arts school. 

 

 

[justasque]

Hey - can I ask a related question here? How is that your children were accepted before you received the letter from the superintendent? My daughter applied to a SUNY school this year - FIT - and they told me that they would not process her application unless is was accompanied by the letter. I was not surprised because we have had the same situation with CUNY. We were planning on having her reapply in the summer for the Spring term.

 

I called SUNY Purchase and they told me the same thing. My head is about to explode now.....

 

 

They wouldn't even offer me that. She has been so bummed that she is dragging her heels pretty badly and I am beginning to worry that she will not actually finish in June. She is insisting that she will take a year off since starting in January would be weird...I told her that if she doesn't finish she will be a DROPOUT and will need to take the TASC test. :cursing:

 

Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

 

Liza Q, I also have a dd who applied to FIT this year (not as a homeschooler). I cannot begin to describe my frustration with the admissions department. Every time I call I get different information. There was a huge kerfuffle over the deadline for a transcript (for a college class), and whether it needed to be postmarked by Feb 1, received by Feb 1, or processed by Feb 1.  (Different admins told me different things.)  The first we sent never showed up; the second, sent in a flurry of chaos and phone calls at the last minute, (which I would have taken there in person if they had told me I needed to), got logged as received over three weeks past the deadline (despite being stamped as received at least a week prior).  I called, and the person I talked to in admissions at that point told me that because of this her application had not been reviewed by the priority deadline (meaning she was unlikely to get admitted), and that there was nothing to be done about it.  After much angst and collecting of thoughts, the next day, I called and asked to talk to a supervisor, who told me that because dd was applying as a freshman, the transcript was actually not needed for admissions purposes at all.  So despite all the conflicting information about the deadline, the deadline was irrelevant.  She also assured me that I need not worry about it, the application had been processed, and at my request changed the date on their records to reflect the date it was sent (which was printed on the transcript).

 

In the end, dd got in, and will probably attend.  (In fact, in retrospect, it is likely that the last person I spoke to could see that dd had been admitted when she spoke to me; why the person the day before couldn't see it I don't know.)  But because of this mess, and many other issues with conflicting information, we now plan to call and email to verify every. single. thing. for her entire stay at the school.  

 

I keep telling myself that this school is $35K less per year than their competitors, and I can put up with some admin chaos to save $140K over four years.  

 

So my advice is to call, call, call, and verify, verify, verify, and don't be afraid to ask to speak to a supervisor if necessary.

 

Also, tell your dd that from everything we've heard, it is perfectly normal to start FIT mid-year (if her major is one that admits mid-year).  

 

Message me if you want to chat more.

[Blossom'sGirl]

Very Frustrated with this.  I called the NYS higher Education Services last week, and the first person I talked with agreed that the TASC regulation was not required.  Then I got handed off the manager when I requested that the college be informed of this.  This superior denied anything and sent me to talk to the folks at NYS Education Department (NYSED).  So, I put a call into them last Friday and just got a call back today.  I explained the situation and they said they have very little to do with the financial aid decisions and sent me back to NYS Higher Education Services.  So I just finished a chat session with Jim at the NYS Higher Education website and asked specifically what is the home school eligibility requirement and what can make a student not eligible.  My response: told me the TASC test was required referred me back to the NYS Department of Education for any more questions and then SHUT ME DOWN from any further response.  I would really love to know where this requirement came from?

 

Michelle

[mschickie]

I just found this in my email folders, I had forgotten this came out.  This came from our local LEAH group back in Feb.  I know they have still been working on the problem.

 

 

Graduates Wrongly Shut Out of College

Because of a confusing state policy memo, several qualified homeschooled graduates recently have encountered difficulty enrolling in college. HSLDA is working through multiple venues, including the state legislature, to resolve the issue

The problem came to light over the past few months. Several graduates reported to both HSLDA and the state homeschool organization Loving Education at Home (LEAH) that their high school credentials were being rejected by community colleges and schools in the State University of New York (SUNY) system. They were also being told they were not eligible for the New York Tuition Assistance Program (TAP). Yet another college was informing homeschooling families that high school credit homeschoolers earned through online courses would not be accepted.

There are several ways the New York Board of Regents have suggested homeschooled graduates be matriculated. The two most common ways are by obtaining a document from their local public school superintendent, often called a letter of substantial equivalency, or by completing 24 hours of college credit.

Misguided Policy

However, in the recently reported cases homeschooled students were being told they could not be matriculated unless they applied for and received the New York state equivalency diploma (akin to the GED). Most of these students were told this decision was based on new guidance that had come down from the New York State Education Department.

We learned that the college admissions personnel were all referring to a memo written on January 21, 2015. The document stated that to be eligible for TAP, a student without a recognized diploma had to apply and receive a GED. While the memo did not reference the letter of substantial equivalency, it stated that only a recognized diploma or the GED was acceptable proof of completion of high school, which implied that the letter was not acceptable. The problem was that this memo was not written to address homeschool graduates. Instead it was for online diploma students and TAP aid.

Setting the Record Straight

Schmidt subsequently spoke with an NYSED official who was involved in creating the January 21, 2015 memo, and who confirmed that the memo should not apply to homeschool graduates. Schmidt also spoke with two SUNY officials, who agreed that another memo from 2005 about homeschool graduates is the one that should be followed.

Since these meetings we understand that NYSED and SUNY are working to clarify this issue in favor of homeschool graduates.

In addition, Schmidt and two delegates from LEAH, Michael Baily and Patti Owens, met with a dozen legislators or their staff to discuss these problems. As a result, new legislation promoting homeschool freedom, Assembly Bill 9091 and Senate Bill 4788, and addressing homeschool graduation, Assembly Bill 43 and Senate Bill 841, has been introduced in the current legislative session.

Several legislators also contacted both the NYSED and SUNY for an explanation.

Edited April 28, 2016 by mschickie

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm not going to hold my breath on any of that.  I was looking around at relevant NY legislation and one of those proposals is now over a year old.  The other is just hanging out in limbo.  And geesh after reading the details of those two, I don't even understand what exactly they want to do or plan to do.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Very Frustrated with this.  I called the NYS higher Education Services last week, and the first person I talked with agreed that the TASC regulation was not required.  Then I got handed off the manager when I requested that the college be informed of this.  This superior denied anything and sent me to talk to the folks at NYS Education Department (NYSED).  So, I put a call into them last Friday and just got a call back today.  I explained the situation and they said they have very little to do with the financial aid decisions and sent me back to NYS Higher Education Services.  So I just finished a chat session with Jim at the NYS Higher Education website and asked specifically what is the home school eligibility requirement and what can make a student not eligible.  My response: told me the TASC test was required referred me back to the NYS Department of Education for any more questions and then SHUT ME DOWN from any further response.  I would really love to know where this requirement came from?

 

Michelle

 

It's just not even true.  Google for the TAP award information.  It says exactly that if a student does not have a high school diploma they need to take an ability to benefit test.  Which is nothing like the TASC.  It basically makes sure that the student has very minimal skills so they won't be wasting their money on higher education if they don't. 

 

But that's the problem with the regs in general.  They get interpreted various ways.  I bet if you called them all back on another day, and got someone else on the phone, they'd tell you something else.  Even my district does not follow the regulations. 

 

And what really makes me sick to my stomach about this is if I lived one state over, I wouldn't even be fretting over this.