I'm struggling with my philosophy of a homeschooled highschool education

[lewelma]

I'm having a small crisis. Seems strange to me that it has come to this half way through my older son's 10th grade year, but I'm torn on where I want to head. The problem is that there is a path to recognition of achievement in this country and we are not on it.  This was no big deal to me when he was just starting 9th grade, I knew we would forge our own path and I was ok with it. I wanted the best education for my ds and I believed that I knew what that would be.  But now ds has been with the correspondence school for 3 terms (4 terms/year) and everything is about assessment and earning credits. I feel swayed to the belief that if you don't get credits for the work you have done then it is as if you have not done it. Here you get credits for units rather than year long courses.  So 20 credits is a course, and you earn between 3 and 6 credits per unit you do and assessment you pass.  So ds can do lab work for chemistry, but if he does not do a specific lab with a specific lab report and get it assessed, it does not count and goes on no transcript. Only credits earned appear on your university application. And then I start reading about these kids who are doing the scholarship exams and getting lots of money.  And my ds could do that and do very well if he wanted to do school in the schooly way, but he does not.  Academic recognition goes to the kids that fit in a set box dictated by the Ministry of Education.  And I am feeling torn between two competing philosophies.  A very British A-levels exam-only approach and the American transcript with ECs and awards approach.  I want to do the latter, but we are in a society of the former.  

 

So ds will get into university here no problems; he won't get money but we can afford it (uni here is cheap).  And in fact, if he wanted to go to a big name school overseas, we could make a transcript and include all the extras he does.  But there is another piece of the puzzle that is really bothering me.  I started tutoring high school about 1.5 years ago, and I am seeing these kids work *so* hard, nights and weekends and school holidays.  And then I see my ds taking it easy with 5 hours a day of work and 1 hour for reading at night. Plus 4 hours on weekends for music. This is just not at all what I see other kids doing.  DS is doing only what is needed for university entrance at a exam level, and then spending all his extra time doing competition math or playing the violin.  It's not that he is not learning at a deep level and at an appropriate challenge level, it is just that he is stretching out the exam requirements over 3 years, so there is not much required each year. And then I think that he is happy and healthy and excited about learning, and I think why in the world do I want to push him to do more.  But then I think that he is not setting himself up for the challenges of university.  But then the other side of me says what are you talking about, he is doing internationally competitive mathematics and reading War and Peace for fun and working towards his post secondary diploma in Violin, you are nuts.  But then none of these things actually count. 

 

So how do you decide what is the right amount of work to do?  And how much should be for credit vs the true desire to learn. And how do you know at what point *you* don't get to decide?  How do you know how much you should influence vs sit back and watch?  My mind is swirling, and my plans are in disarray. 

 

Save me from myself,

 

Ruth in NZ

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Here is my first thought after reading what you wrote:

 

What path will take him beyond the University?  In other words, don't look just to getting into Uni.  What path gives him areas of interest to pursue as an adult, things that speak to him, things that fulfill him besides just getting credits?  What path gets him skills he can apply in a variety of ways for a career that fires him up?  What path helps him to be the person he would like to be?

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Loesje22000]

When dd had to pass the required 8th grade exams we had little time for our 'extra's' and a lot of pressure.

Now we are in our exam free years until we start attending the grade 12 exams. Due to dd's asynchroneous development they will be spread about 3 years.

 

If we would limit ourselves to the 12th grade examrequirements we would have shorter day's, and a grumphy dd.

DD has no passions in music, sports, or other area she wants to develop after 'school'.

That is what most other homeschoolers do here.

 

So we learn what we think it is important / worthwile to learn, while keeping an eye on the requirements.

Most of our 'extra' or 'deeper' stuff will not be notified on a diploma or a certificate.

For some (English Language) we will get an extra certificate.

 

In Flanders too, students work all day, night and weekend for school.

At least it looks like that.

As Flanders does not have entry requirements for tracks most students start 'high' and are working (slightly) above their level.

If dd would be in school her life would be even more centered about tests and grades then during grade 8.

 

Some things areworthwile to learn, if the minister of education / examprogram requires it or not.

That is the message I try to give to dd.

And that gave also our motivation back.

 

:grouphug:

 

[lewelma]

Thanks guys. You're awesome. :001_wub:  How can this be so hard for me? It just seems like first-world problems. So I read your responses to my dh, and he was like "ok, let's stay the course." DS is happy and thriving.  I think it is just so easy to see the grass as greener.  I see one of ds's maths camp friends getting the premier scholarship (top 7 kids in NZ) and I think "well, ds could do that." But to do so he would have to focus on doing things the schooly way, and ds is really not interested. 

 

OneStep, DS right now wants to be a theoretical physicists or mathematician. He loves his violin and is going for the city orchestra next year.  He loves reading deep interesting novels.  He has been disappointed by the psychological analysis of characters in War and Peace compared to how they were developed in Brothers Karamazov. He has loved our discussions on Borges, and wants to attack Camus and Marquez next.  He *loves* badminton and is really enjoying focusing on technique and fitness in his effort to beat the competition.  He is actually a pretty good water colourist, but finds time only in school holidays to do some art.  Mandarin has fallen on the back burner ever since he was evaluated by the correspondence school at a lower level than he thought he was.  So sad. So I would like to get him a tutor again and let him do it *his* way. Correspondence school was focused on writing, and ds's skill is reading. I was just so sad when he quit because of poor grades in an area he was not focused in.  He also loves arguing, and just today we had a full on argument about GMO crops, that ended in his making an awesome point -- that I was focusing on possible risks, and he was focusing on certain risks.  He *loves* argument, and I would like to get him into toastmasters or something similar. He still does Wing Tsun and might finally get to be a black shirt next year, and he is becoming a *very* accomplished cook.  For down time, it is video games and lots of sci fi tv shows.  He is just becoming an interesting, kind, helpful, confident young man.  How could I ask for more?  It's just that all these other kids *are* doing more, much more at least in time.  And I wonder if I just pushed a little bit, if he could accomplish more. But I don't want to break him. Being in mathematics, he is surrounded by first generation Chinese kids who are a part of an academically driven culture, so in contrast he kind of looks lazy or at least really laid back. :blushing:  I feel horrible that I ever feel that way, but actually I do. :blushing:  :blushing:  He works 10-3:30 with half hour for lunch.  It just doesn't seem enough.  But I feel like I'm discounting all the stuff he does for fun, and that is really not fair.  Why do I feel this way?  How horrible.  :crying:

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Loesje, exams are such a pain. One of the problems ds has is that he does things at a much higher level than required, so he actually can't compete with the top kids because he only gets an excellence for his paper on Brothers Karamazov, and the other kids get the same excellence for the same unit using Harry Potter.  DS does *not* want to use Harry Potter. It just seems that for anything that counts, we are not efficient.  DS doesn't want to do the minimum, he wants to do it *his* way.  It is just not recognized.  And in an exam driven system, marks are everything.  Nothing else he does counts here. On the positive side, he has guaranteed university entrance, so we don't have to deal with all the stress that is described on this board.  But on the negative side, nothing extra that he does beyond exams counts.    

[lewelma]

Can I also say that it is totally awesome to be 12 hours off Europe and right next to Oz, so that someone is actually awake to read my soul-searching nighttime posts.   :thumbup1:

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[Brad S]

...

 

Honestly Ruth, all the busyness and work all hours of the day is just rubbish. ... A lot of the assessment is rubbish. Most of the stress is damaging, not inspiring. Thousands of kids go through this system and come out unable to cope with uni anyway. Partly because they are burnt out. Plenty of kids don't make it through those last two years either.

 

...

 

Anyway, just to say - I think you are worrying unnecessarily. Your boy knows how to work. He does work. He knows how to persist. And he will also come to university fresh, having used the intervening time to grow and deepen and live a much less stressed life. 

 

Some free time, and some time to follow passions are not going to deprive your child of the ability to do well at uni. Sadly, two years of high pressure, low quality 'assessment' can.

 

Before reading the replies, I was going to say pretty much the above.  It sure seems to me your older is phenomenally successful exactly as he's doing things.  Why risk messing him up?  For what, really?  I think you're worrying unnecessarily too.

 

[lewelma]

Isn't it horrible, Brad? I feel like I shouldn't feel this way. But is it fair for gifted kids to do fewer hours and achieve more?  Does it prepare them for life in competitive fields?  Don't know.

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[Loesje22000]

Loesje, exams are such a pain. One of the problems ds has is that he does things at a much higher level than required, so he actually can't compete with the top kids because he only gets an excellence for his paper on Brothers Karamazov, and the other kids get the same excellence for the same unit using Harry Potter.  DS does *not* want to use Harry Potter. It just seems that for anything that counts, we are not efficient.  DS doesn't want to do the minimum, he wants to do it *his* way.  It is just not recognized.  And in an exam driven system, marks are everything.  Nothing else he does counts here. On the positive side, he has guaranteed university entrance, so we don't have to deal with all the stress that is described on this board.  But on the negative side, nothing extra that he does beyond exams counts.    

 

I know, I know.

But he is happy with Karamazov, that counts.

 

The extra's he does, do count for you both I suppose. And that is important too!

 

We have a limited choice in Flanders for the Dutch Literature exam.

Most would be considered 10th grade in the Netherlands.

Not 12th in a language track.

For the other languages they don't even read books here ... :(

So it will never counts, but we will make a portfolio for Literature in every language she studies.

We also get inspection as homeschoolers so those extra's are seen then.

But is not the reason why we are doing this.

I think it is worthwhile to do in a Language track...

[lewelma]

 

But it is not the reason why we are doing this.

 

 

This is where I think I have lost my way.  Why did I ever start homeschooling?  Am I actually trying to replicate school?  Am I trying to compete with the schools for the highest honors?  If so, we are going about it the wrong way.  We need to go Harry Potter all the way. :tongue_smilie:

[creekland]

I wouldn't try to "fix" a problem that doesn't appear to be there.

 

If you needed the money, then following the traditional path could have an appeal, but without that need, I'm not seeing any appeal really.

 

Some kids need more time to learn similar material.  Some need less.  Some kids (and adults) can easily connect with deeper level thinking and content.  Others can't, and when they can't, they often don't want to, so will avoid it if possible.  Those who can tend to love it and do it for fun.

 

I suspect your son will do well in college, and I suspect he'll be desired as an applicant at many places.

[lewelma]

Other kids may be doing 'more' but 1. there is a price to be paid for all that 'more' and 2. not all 'more' is created equal. 

 

Yes. 100 times yes. I need to put this on my refrigerator. 

 

I think that really once he joined the Correspondence school last July, I started thinking of him like he was in school, but he never saw himself leaving homeschooling.  Perhaps that difference in perception and expectation is what has caused our difference of opinion. He is not maximizing his schooling, but I do think he is maximizing his education. I think I just need to reorient my expectations.

[creekland]

This is where I think I have lost my way.  Why did I ever start homeschooling?  Am I actually trying to replicate school?  Am I trying to compete with the schools for the highest honors?  If so, we are going about it the wrong way.  We need to go Harry Potter all the way. :tongue_smilie:

 

I work in our local public high school.  It didn't have the depth I wanted my own boys to have, so when oldest started 9th grade, we started homeschooling (all of them).  In hindsight, I'd have started in 7th grade, not 9th.

 

By homeschooling we could allow more depth, more fun, and exploration of things that appealed to them - all on our own schedule.

 

It certainly wasn't any sort of problem.  The two of mine who homeschooled through high school have done very well.  The youngest, who opted to return to public school for high school, has had the most difficulty adjusting to college, but has figured it out and is thriving now.

 

Was I replicating school (in general)?  Yes and no.  Yes, I wanted mine to get an education - the purpose of school.  We did not stay home and merely learn farming or construction or basic education.  No, we didn't feel the need to do only what the school covered.

[lewelma]

I wouldn't try to "fix" a problem that doesn't appear to be there.

 

Well, it is confusing.  Should he take 2 years to complete a single course?  Yes it is a 12th grade course, but no different than an AP taken in 10th grade by a gifted kid.  Should I let him do it only half speed?  The correspondence school has no deadlines, at all.  DS decides which units he will do, and then takes the assessment when he gets around to it.  What has happened is that he runs behind on the assignments that I have laid out, and then we just delay the assessment until he is ready.  I'm worried that this sets him up to ignore set deadlines.  I can't see how this will be a good for prep for university.  It is just not as clear cut as he has achieved lots, so all is well.

[Loesje22000]

This is where I think I have lost my way. Why did I ever start homeschooling? Am I actually trying to replicate school? Am I trying to compete with the schools for the highest honors? If so, we are going about it the wrong way. We need to go Harry Potter all the way. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

To stay inspired you have to work on it ;)

My way is to visit open door days of local schools.

As long as we do 'more' or 'deeper' or sometimes even 'better' I have a reason to homeschool.

[Brad S]

Isn't it horrible, Brad? I feel like I shouldn't feel this way. But is it fair for gifted kids to do fewer hours and achieve more?  Does it prepare them for life in competitive fields?  Don't know.

 

Feelings are what they are.  (I think you should feel the way you feel, of course, and not change that.)  Yes, I think it's fair for gifted kids to do fewer hours and achieve more if it's healthy and working.  I think the efficiency is a sign the educational set up is working well.  Your son is using the time wisely and apparently it's healthy for him.  The "free time" is a chance to find out more of what interests him, and that's really important in life and competitive fields -- if you're not interested in the area, you're not likely to do really, really well in a competitive field.  And that's before we get into being happy with what you're doing.

 

I do think that some free time to think and explore helps prepare for life in competitive fields, at least if the time is being used productively.  I would think that what your DS is doing takes a great deal of mental energy. Doing busy work to fulfill assessments is likely to drain DS's energy, interest, and creativity. 

[creekland]

Well, it is confusing.  Should he take 2 years to complete a single course?  Yes it is a 12th grade course, but no different than an AP taken in 10th grade by a gifted kid.  Should I let him do it only half speed?  The correspondence school has no deadlines, at all.  DS decides which units he will do, and then takes the assessment when he gets around to it.  What has happened is that he runs behind on the assignments that I have laid out, and then we just delay the assessment until he is ready.  I'm worried that this sets him up to ignore set deadlines.  I can't see how this will be a good for prep for university.  It is just not as clear cut as he has achieved lots, so all is well.

 

Good question.  The answer lies in whether he can accomplish what is needed within a deadline or not.  Some kids can and just delay due to other appealing options at the time.  Others have a tough time getting done what needs to be done when they don't want to do it and that will carry over into college if they see no reason.  In this latter case, it could indeed be a problem.

 

We had no deadlines in our homeschooling.  My kids worked solely at their own pace (remember, I didn't homeschool the early years).  The two who homeschooled through high school had no problem in college with deadlines.  They were very used to pacing themselves and getting things done, so adding deadlines wasn't a problem at all.

 

My ps kid is the one who decided it was ok to get a C in one of his college classes solely because he didn't want to do the homework for that class and he knew he was capable of getting high grades on the tests to balance out a 0 on the homework (that was worth 20% of his grade).  I guess I'm glad he knew how to do the math.  His work ethic OTOH...  :glare:

[lewelma]

 Doing busy work to fulfill assessments is likely to drain DS's energy, interest, and creativity. 

 

This is where he is.  He only wants to do what is absolutely required.  I think I was very much a jump the hoops kind of kid, so his refusal to do what is required for each class is so confusing for me. I guess it is what I taught him from the beginning -- the love of learning.  If he feels it is busy work, he won't do it credits or not.  He has complained this year that he thinks all my tutoring has gotten me more "schooly" and he is annoyed with me asking him to jump some hoops.  Hoops that require busy work to get the credits, perhaps credits he does not need. At first I was thinking 'no, I'm not changing because I'm tutoring,' but now I'm thinking that yes, I think my perceptions have changed. But it is also the correspondence school.  They have sent him some regional awards, so we looked them up and realized that there were national awards too.  Should he go for them?  He could be validictorian for the correspondence school of 20,000 students if he wanted to. Should I encourage him to do this?  To do it he would have to focus on the *school's* requirements, not his own personal educational goals. I think that it is seductive. And I have been seduced. :crying:   

[Brad S]

Well, it is confusing.  Should he take 2 years to complete a single course?  Yes it is a 12th grade course, but no different than an AP taken in 10th grade by a gifted kid.  Should I let him do it only half speed?  The correspondence school has no deadlines, at all.  DS decides which units he will do, and then takes the assessment when he gets around to it.  What has happened is that he runs behind on the assignments that I have laid out, and then we just delay the assessment until he is ready.  I'm worried that this sets him up to ignore set deadlines.  I can't see how this will be a good for prep for university.  It is just not as clear cut as he has achieved lots, so all is well.

 

Ruth, I think you have a reasonable concern here, potentially.  I don't see anything wrong with taking two years to do something, if that makes sense with other demands and scheduling issues, but I would be concerned if a pattern of missed deadlines is occurring.  You may want to get more buy in from DS before setting the deadline, if he didn't buy in when the deadline was set.  Or perhaps you could teach him to build in contingencies (e.g., "be done a week early to allow for illness during the semester, unforeseen events, unexpected difficulty near the end," or whatever makes sense in his case).  Just a few thoughts.  It does seem pretty correctable now that you've identified it.

 

[lewelma]

Good question.  The answer lies in whether he can accomplish what is needed within a deadline or not.  

 

Well, he has always been able to handle AoPS strict deadlines, even when he had 2 classes going on at once. It bothers me that he does not like to keep a calendar, and that he does not take *my* deadlines seriously.  Perhaps I need to back off, give him a syllabus for each class, and let him sort it out himself.  The problem is I really really struggle with the conflicting rolls of parent and supervisor/homeschool teacher. I can totally see why homeschooling parents outsource high school courses.  The problem is that ds doesn't like the correspondence school curriculum that much, and they don't push *at all*, so if I back off, there would no external pressure or requirements.  The solution is just not straight forward. 

[creekland]

Have you talked with him about your thoughts about this?  Esp the part about getting recognition and awards and why this could be useful ($$)?

 

If you offer to share the potential $$ with him (since you have enough to cover college), would that give him incentive?

 

In your conversation with him, can you mention your concern about work/deadlines in college and ask him to humor you by doing what is required for one class (your choice) with a respectable time frame to get some practice for university?

 

Just brainstorming.

[lewelma]

You may want to get more buy in from DS before setting the deadline, if he didn't buy in when the deadline was set. 

 

 

This is the problem, spot on. You are totally right. No buy in from DS.  He knows he needs to do the assessments, he just doesn't seem to prioritize them. He is in 10th grade, what is the hurry?  He doesn't need to take 6 classes each year like in the usa, he just needs to take basically 4 or 5 APs for university entrance, and that is it. So I guess he is thinking 'this is all I have to do,' and I am thinking, 'you are gifted and should do more.' Sounds like this is the crux of the problem.  Isn't it always communication?  Now we are getting down to the nitty gritty of what I need to solve. 

[lewelma]

Good ideas, Creekland. I'll talk to him.  We have just had a whirlwind first term with the rollercoaster of math competitions' successes and failures.  I laid out a schedule for the year in January with the assumption that he would not make the team. So I delay a bunch of assessment out of term 1 so that he had time to do maths, maths, and more maths, and now when it comes time to do the work for other subjects in term 2, I'm looking at much less time because now there is *more* math to do, and camp, and travelling to Hong Kong.  It is all so exciting, but I need to completely redo my plans.  Basically, some stuff needs to be delayed to next year.  Not full classes mind you, this is a unit assessment system.  So I'm talking about delaying units.  But that is breaking up Chemistry, and possibly Physics for a *third* year.  At what point does it become ridiculous. We started half way through the year with the correspondence school so everything is split in half.  It is just a mess. There are so many complexities it is not even funny. I'm like  :willy_nilly:

[lewelma]

I'd be interrogating the idea that 'gifted children should do more'. 

 

Gifted children CAN do more. The 'should' is problematic imo, and honestly, has been a great source of stress to me in my adult life. 

 

Again, just my opinion. 

 

Is there any chance he could go to uni early ? It sounds like you're worried about him drifting. I think drifting can be a potential problem, though from your description I don't see 'drifting' but balance. Would there be more buy in with the hoop jumping if it moved him to a goal more congruent with his sense of who he is and where he is going ?

 

I kind of feel like effort should be equal amongst kids, so if you have it hard you accomplish less, if you have it easy, you accomplish more.  No?

 

Yes, absolutely he can go early.  If he wanted to he could have all the requirements done by November.  But he would like to stall to stay at the IMO.  He will start taking university math classes in July and is currently working on a 3-year post-secondary diploma in music. So basically he is staying half time in high school so that he can continue with the competition math which he loves. I'll think about whether he will drift.  That is an interesting question.  I don't think so, but this conversation has made it clear that he and I need a deep long talk, because our expectations are not in alignment.  

[lewelma]

Sadie, I will have a good long think.  Thank you so much for bringing up this point as it is worth my and my dh's time. We decided to homeschool way back when because we wanted our children to have more time with family and to integrate their education into their lifestyle so they would love learning (we were unschoolers back then).  Over the first few years we came to understand that ds was incredibly gifted and our focus changed to insure that he was always challenged.  In my mind, school taught a hidden curriculum to gifted kids "Everything is easy; I'm better than everyone else; and I don't have to work hard to succeed." We made the decision to avoid this hidden curriculum by creating an appropriately challenging education for older. Over time, I think this morphed to 'we can do better than the best schools.' And I might add that we are zoned for the best school in the country (public or private) based on scholarship results. So we have *chosen* to forgo this free education to do it our self, believing we could do better.  But now we come full circle.  What is better?  In some measures we are succeeding with our goal and in others we are failing.  It all depends on how you weight the measures.  And I do think I have been seduced by the successes of certain students we know and by the correspondence school and their educational ideology.  I think I am back to the title of this thread about me being confused as to my homeschooling philosophy. Small crisis of faith over here.   

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Hey guys, I'm going to sleep over here.  Please be kind to me in my absence.  I have kind of put myself out there and don't usually post on the high school board because you guys are scary.   :tongue_smilie:

 

Be back in the morning. 

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[creekland]

We have just had a whirlwind first term with the rollercoaster of math competitions' successes and failures.  I laid out a schedule for the year in January with the assumption that he would not make the team. So I delay a bunch of assessment out of term 1 so that he had time to do maths, maths, and more maths, and now when it comes time to do the work for other subjects in term 2, I'm looking at much less time because now there is *more* math to do, and camp, and travelling to Hong Kong.  It is all so exciting, but I need to completely redo my plans.  Basically, some stuff needs to be delayed to next year.  Not full classes mind you, this is a unit assessment system.  So I'm talking about delaying units.  But that is breaking up Chemistry, and possibly Physics for a *third* year.  At what point does it become ridiculous. 

 

Your reasons for adjusting the schedule are valid.  I wouldn't have a problem with it at all - and having some units of these courses closer to when he goes to university also has its pluses.  We split advanced Bio and Chem into two years so my guy would be doing part of them his senior year to keep them fresh for his pre-med classes freshman year of college.  There's absolutely no law that says a course needs to be completed in one (or two) years.  It's the knowledge in those courses that one wants.

 

We decided to homeschool way back when because we wanted our children to have more time with family and to integrate their education into their lifestyle so they would love learning (we were unschoolers back then).  Over the first few years we came to understand that ds was incredibly gifted and our focus changed to insure that he was always challenged.  In my mind, school taught a hidden curriculum to gifted kids "Everything is easy; I'm better than everyone else; and I don't have to work hard to succeed." We made the decision to avoid this hidden curriculum by creating an appropriately challenging education for older. Over time, I think this morphed to 'we can do better than the best schools.' And I might add that we are zoned for the best school in the country (public or private) based on scholarship results. So we have *chosen* to forgo this free education to do it our self, believing we could do better.  But now we come full circle.  What is better?  In some measures we are succeeding with our goal and in others we are failing.  It all depends on how you weight the measures.  And I do think I have been seduced by the successes of certain students we know and by the correspondence school and their educational ideology.  I think I am back to the title of this thread about me being confused as to my homeschooling philosophy. Small crisis of faith over here.   

 

Honestly?  The bolded part happens to all of us regardless of our educational choice (homeschooling or ps and what a student does within each).  There is no way to "get it all" IME.

[creekland]

 I'm only being brave because most of the college ladies are asleep! 

 

:lol:  Most are.  

 

I have no idea what it's like to sleep past 5am.  Today I'm on here earlier than normal since I'm not working at school today and don't care to shower until after I've done some things outside.   :coolgleamA:

[creekland]

Oh, you're not too scary :) I'm just glad to see you posting!

 

It's not even a good morning health-wise.  I think I'm just getting used to it (again) so it's not as much of a drain on the rest of my brain causing the crankiness.  I'm able (learning?) to keep the two things separate.

 

Of course, time will tell if I get back on later today - after I've done more!  :laugh:

 

One week from today I might need to be on to keep my sanity.  A totally different (hopefully minor) health issue will have my right hand (dominant hand) out of commission for 8 days (getting a small "mass" removed from it).  I'm not supposed to try to do much with it during that time and won't be working as it's impossible to do much at school without that hand.  

 

My brain is just now starting to try to figure out how to fill that time since I get bored with too much TV (and too much is generally anything longer than one movie per day).  I don't know whether to spend time reading (and on here) or to go outside and spend a bit of time walking, but not doing anything.  I've already spent our travel budget, so can't head off to a beach to walk.   :glare:

 

I am, of course, hoping (expecting?) that it will take less than 8 days (then another 2 months) to recover.  It is my hand, after all, and it knows how my brain demands things of its body...  :lol:

[8filltheheart]

I agree with Creekland. What does he think? My11th grader has very strong opinions about what she wants to do and what she doesn't want to do. By all accounts, she is working at a much more advanced level than her older brother, but it is across the board in a more balanced way than the skewed focus of her brother. But, equally, her class lists look absolutely **nothing** like her brother's bc she doesn't want to take that approach at all.

 

So how does that look in reality? Her brother had AP credits in math and science and DE credit for 8 upper math and science courses. On paper, his coursework looks significantly more advanced bc dd has zero AP credits and she doesn't want to DE. As of right now she has taken 1 CLEP test, calculus, must have only missed a few questions bc her score is well over 20 pts beyond what she needs for credit.....if the college actually gives credit. She plans on taking several CLEPs, otherwise she will just take the classes at college.

 

She doesn't want to take AP exams in May under specific format structure when she can take CLEPs whenever she wants. She doesn't want to have rigid focus on what she studies. She wants to study subjects her own way and then just do targeted study for the tests. She doesn't want to DE bc she doesn't want to lose her freedom to create her own schedule within her individual days and figures high school is her time for freedom and college schedules will come soon enough.

 

Her language levels are probably going to match ds's math and physics levels. While he mastered those skills through DE, she is accomplishing higher level goals with tutors (bc foreign language classes are not standardized at all and she is getting better targeted teaching goals from tutors than our local university options.)

 

We have talked about the fact that her approach is going to influence her options when she applies to colleges. Her course "rigor" is not easily quantified like AP and DE. The schools she will be applying to take CLEP credits, but it varies from school to school, so she may end up having to repeat courses that if she had taken as APs or DE she wouldn't. She won't get credit for her lower level Foreign language accomplishments, but she will be able to test via written and oral interviews into appropriate level classes (this path has been a learning curve compared to math and science!)

 

On paper it looks like she is functioning on a fairly avg level. The reality is that she has been functioning on a college level in all humanities classes since 8th or 9th grade.It just isn't quantified like her brothers. Like you described about your ds, it is difficult to quantify the education being accomplished by a student who read Paradise Lost in 8th grade and loved it, who wants to do a Shakespeare capstone study her sr yr, who loves learning and reads epic poetry simply bc she loves it.

 

Her thoughts are right now she has the freedom to explore subjects and take paths that fascinate her. Classroom learning will be arriving soon enough and she doesn't want to give up now what she doesn't have to.

 

Her decision, but it isn't one that she made without knowing the consequences of the decision.

 

Fwiw, she is not going to struggle with the transition to college bc of the level of input and output she puts on herself. ;)

 

But, they were her decisions to make. I did not make them for her.

Edited April 19, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[regentrude]

I am not quite sure how to pinpoint the problem.

Your DS works, a lot (way more than the 5 hours you listed - just on different stuff). He is happy putting in the effort (like reading difficult books where easier ones would suffice).

He manages to fulfill the requirements in your country, will be admitted to university. You can afford to send him.

You can package his extraordinary achievements for admission to a US university. They will shine.

 

So, what am I missing? Is the problem that the system in your country is set up so that there is no automatic way for his achievements to be recognized?

The way I understand you, recognition would come for things he is not interested in (more or better exams in other subjects?), and doing the things he loves and is good at won't achieve that formal recognition?

Does this bother him? Does he want to jump through all those hoops?

 

It looks to me as if you have a great balance: he does enough of the "other" stuff to satisfy requirements and uses his time to go deep in the areas he loves. I don't see a problem. It looks like this is the best education - for him.

 

Btw, work load in public school is not a sensible measure.

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by regentrude

[fourisenough]

I haven't read all the responses, but your op made me think of this Mark Twain quote:

 

"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."

[Chrysalis Academy]

Gahh, I only had time to read the first couple of posts and now I have to go work!! But I will be back. I'm grappling with some of these same questions. I'm looking forward to reading everyone's comments.

[OneStepAtATime]

Other kids may be doing 'more' but 1. there is a price to be paid for all that 'more' and 2. not all 'more' is created equal. 

This.  A lot of kids are pushed harder and harder but in the end they crack.  Or they end up hating to learn.  Or they only see value in learning for earning credits and if there are no credits to earn why bother to learn?  There is so much about what your son is doing that is not easily quantifiable but that will do him a much greater service overall then just earning credits.  Give him opportunities to continue to do things that speak to him as a person, not just him as a student needing to get into Uni.  

 

Honestly, your son sounds fantastic!

[OnMyOwn]

I haven't read all the replies, but my first impression is that your son is spending many hours a day on academic pursuits.  It is just that he is enjoying it.  He is spending his "free" time on math competitions and music and literature.  It's not as if he was doing a minimal amount of schoolwork and then spending all his free time playing Minecraft.  Sounds perfect to me.

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 20, 2016 by _ ?^..

[lewelma]

So after some more reflection, I think what has happened is that by accident through external pressure I have changed my philosophy of homeschooling to one of replicating what school do.  And if that is my goal, then kids at my ds's level do scholarship exams, and lots of them. This is how they compete and not just for money but for recognition.  I think that before I started tutoring and before ds entered the Correspondence School, I did not fully recognize how the whole country cheers the achievement of the kids who do well at scholarship.  It is all in the news, and the kids all talk about it.  Because each subject has its own exam, kids only take the exams in subjects they are good at.  So a huge percentage of kids take them.

 

The problem with these exams is that the cover all the units for a subject, so you are much more likely to do well if you take a subject over a single year and use the scholarship exam as a capstone.  Because ds entered the correspondence school half way through the year, all of his courses are split, so he would have to restudy the half of the course from last year that he already took the standard exam on, in order to take the scholarship exam this year. This issue has been building because none of us really understood the system at first, and slowly overtime we are bringing together the pieces.  He is getting pressure from friends who say things like "you got a perfect score on the calculus exam, you should *definitely* do scholarship.  Why wouldn't you?" Well, he wouldn't because he would have to go back and relearn some stuff that he did when he was 10.  It would not take that long, but it would take time to get fast and to write the answers in a way that would get full marks when competing with kids for whom this is their life. Then he finds out that one of his idols from maths camp just got the premier scholarship for the top 7 kids in the country, and it gives him pause.  "Should I be doing this?" he thinks. "I don't want to, but everyone is really shocked that I'm not."  No one here knows anything about the IMO, no one recognizes that he got the highest mark on the ABRSM exam for any instrument and any grade last year.  It is not scholarship music, so it doesn't count.  DS is competitive and wants recognition.  But he has also be brought up by us to love learning and want to do it *his* way. And doing it *his* way is simply not competitive because it is not efficient to the end goal. And in the end, we entered him in the correspondence school as a last ditch effort to get him the assessments after all else failed (I'd been working on the homeschool situation for over a year), and then it has just been a whirlwind of NZ assessments and then the IMO prep and selection exams.  I think we have just not had the time (and he has not had the interest) in making a new plan under the new system that he now finds himself in.  He is technically now not homeschooled, but rather in the Correspondence School as an 'elite musician.'  (there is no pathway for entry using his maths skills, go figure).

 

I think that all of you are completely correct and I am really glad that I put this thread out there.  He needs to *choose* his path and then stay the course. We need to advise by laying out the pros and cons and consequences of each decision.  But then let him decide.  Some things he is very clear on, I think, but then others (like traveling overseas for university) he is shaky on and his thoughts might change as he ages.  I do think we need to keep the doors open for that possibility, and as Laura has often said being competitive for university in two countries is very very difficult.  So the situation is not super clear cut.  

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[lewelma]

I haven't read all the replies, but my first impression is that your son is spending many hours a day on academic pursuits.  It is just that he is enjoying it.  He is spending his "free" time on math competitions and music and literature.  It's not as if he was doing a minimal amount of schoolwork and then spending all his free time playing Minecraft.  Sounds perfect to me.

 

Well, not exactly.  What is happening, which is part of my confusion and concern, is that he is doing a minimal amount of school work that is not math.  Like maybe 2 hours (plus reading time at night). This appears to be enough for getting top marks on all the assessments.  He can spend so little time because he is capable of doing 12th grade work in 9th grade, so he has taken the five 12th grade exams and spread the work out over 4 years. What this means is that he does much less work that all the school kids I interact with, which is why my concern started to grow.  If they are working all hours, is my ds doing enough?  

[lewelma]

This.  A lot of kids are pushed harder and harder but in the end they crack.  Or they end up hating to learn.  Or they only see value in learning for earning credits and if there are no credits to earn why bother to learn?  There is so much about what your son is doing that is not easily quantifiable but that will do him a much greater service overall then just earning credits.  Give him opportunities to continue to do things that speak to him as a person, not just him as a student needing to get into Uni.  

 

Honestly, your son sounds fantastic!

 

Yes! This is why we homeschooled all these years. I wanted my ds to love learning, to have time with family,  and to avoid the long hours at school. I wanted him to have a life.  That is why I am surprised to find myself so easily seduced.  This thread is helping me to recognize that my ds is absolutely right, I am becoming more schooly. And it has to stop.  It is not what we are here for.  Somehow I need to turn the ship around. It is good that I am reforging my own beliefs now, because as you know, my younger ds's education will need to be even further off the standard path. 

 

I've been reading all these posts to my dh, and one thing he said this morning was quite interesting.  He said that he really thought that by giving our gifted son a superior and tailored education, that somehow at the end it would translate into being strongly competitive with the school kids.  And only now is he coming to understand that this is not the case. DS might have a better education, but that is different.  We need to own it and love it and not try to do all things well. 

[8filltheheart]

Ruth, I can only share that my kids would not be who they are if we had conformed. I wouldn't change a thing! In a schooly setting, ds could never have studied he math and physics to the level that he did. He couldn't have created independent astronomy studies. He couldn't have taken philosophy or theology to the degree that he did. He couldn't have immersed himself in a yr of Lewis. All of those things are him. Not a list of awards or tests.

 

Same with dd. She wouldn't have time for the language studies she has done. How many kids in school can do an entire semester dedicated to fairy tales and read Grimms and Jacobs in English, Perrault in French, and Russian folktales in Russian. She couldn't take a semester of linguistics. She couldn't handpick her literature (right now we are reading LeMorte d'Arthur.) She couldn't spend create her Shakespearean capstone project that she wants to do next yr. Her love of those things are just as much a part of her as ds's passions are part of him.

 

Typical teenage culture is school is a race to get all the busywork done. You fly from one subject to another checking off the list or for building the perfect portfolio for the admissions game. It isn't about doing it for the love of doing it and seeking it out on your own bc you want to know more.

 

The trade-off is more than a list of awards. For my kids, it is self-created lifestyle.

[lewelma]

Thanks for sharing 8. I clearly need to change back to my old philosophy.  And I need to get his ideas for what he wants to study.  One thing that is absolutely true of ds is that he needs external motivation and timelines to get stuff done.  He does very well with external classes.  I am not actually sure how much he would accomplish on his own in a mommy-made class that gave him no credit.  I'm going to give it a go with the class I've described on the other thread.  But this is going to be a huge shift in thinking, and I will need to get him on board.  What we have found in the past year or so is that down time has become screen time.  And he may or may not see a new 'class' of our own creation as busy work.  But if it is not a class, then he never seems to find time to follow passions, like his watercolour. I think that going back to our old way may not be a straightforward as I hope. 

[lllll]

nm

Edited April 20, 2016 by _ ?^..

[lewelma]

No, I'm not worried about him succeeding at university.  I think it is more just a shift in my thinking.  I have always kind of kept tabs with where school kids are in writing or math or whatever, just to make sure I was on the right track and keeping up in all subjects.  When you go it alone, I think it is pretty easy to call xxx enough, when in reality it is not.  And this year with all my tutor kids going into 11th grade, the amount of work they are doing has gone up a crazy amount.  So it just got me wondering if my ds *should* be putting in more hours because others his age do.  One of my kids has had to write 4 10-page papers in a 3 week period, and I've been up helping him at 10:30 at night.  Yes, it has been too much, but boy has he gotten so much better at writing in such a short time.  If my ds just did an hour more work a day, we could get an awful lot more done because he would go from 2 hours of non-math a day to 3 hours.  That is a pretty big percent increase.  But instead, he seems to be going from 6 hours to 5 hours total during the day.  I can't tell if it is because the work he does is really hard and he is tired, or because he thinks it is enough (and maybe he is right or maybe he is not).  But then in his free time if he is not at his badminton/martial arts or cooking, then he is playing video games. Is that ok?  Are the screens seductive?  I've made some rules, but perhaps I should be more strict? Where is the balance? How much screen time is too much? *Why* do we as a society expect teens to work such long hours? Am I less available now that I am tutoring for deep involved discussions?  I'm just pretty conflicted about a lot of stuff. 

[lewelma]

Rose, tell me what you think. I know you have struggled with similar issues.  Have you found your own path?

[quark]

Thinking about math is very tiring Ruth. I don't know how other kids do that and also all the other things. I don't blame your DS for being exhausted. Especially with all the problem solving he must be doing.

 

Re video games, we have a strict rule of weekend only and we won't pay for games. If he plays, it will be something free he found, but thankfully he hasn't found video games very addicting yet. But it's a challenge to get him off the laptop for other things like math blogs, news articles, wikipedia. I don't monitor those as closely but I do let him know if I feel he has had too much screen time. I'm a little lax if he has had a string of tests/quizzes/projects to hand up because I know screens can be a good way to quickly decompress after a test or project but I monitor for over-use.

 

Mine craves structure and external deadlines too. We've split it up so that we can unschool as much as he likes in some areas and enjoy the structure he wants in others. But as he is getting more serious about application and due to the goals we have to help him get there, we are starting to become more schooly than we like too. In the end I think it's the whole least-worst scenario. The schools we think he has a chance with have certain requirements and we want him to be successful in his dreams to get in there, so we help him find a way to do that in the most challenging but also most enjoyable way possible (e.g. if he needs 4 English credits, I try to make sure they are through courses he will enjoy, if I can unschool them I do, and if there's something schooly he takes, I at least make sure we have looked hard for a good instructor with good taste in books).

 

Will it work to set up a new priority every few months? E.g. if you want him to be able to churn out 4 10-page papers in 3 weeks, could you seek an online tutor or DIY for a few months? Then move on to something else? Use a block schedule like arrangement instead of a year long course? For my DS, 12-15 weeks is a good time frame for something like that. Doing things in short bursts have helped DS shore up weaker skills while also keeping his love of learning strong.

 

Hope I am not rambling.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by quark

[lewelma]

I like the block schedule idea to shore up weaker areas. Like it a lot.  I'm conflicted as to whether ds gets more accomplished with longer blocks of time for fewer subjects each day or short blocks with more subjects.  I will ask him.  We could spend 2 weeks on english and then 2 weeks on Chem.  Rather than doing both each day.  

 

As for video games, we have a strict rule for the big games of Friday night and Saturday morning before music. So he gets in about 6 hours per week. And on Wednesday night he watches his sci fi tv shows from 6-9.  But then during the rest of the school week he has asked for me not to monitor him. He wants to make his own choices, and I can understand that.  He finishes by around 4 everyday and I require that he has no-screen time starting at 9pm.  So he can do what he likes from 4 to 9.  He has activities on during these hours: badminton x2, win tsung x2, cooking x2, house cleaning, and violin lessons, so it is not like 5 hours every day.  But what I am finding is that he is playing baby video games on the tablet for hours.  I think they are pretty mindless and help him to relax, but I'm starting to wonder if I need to restrict them. He used to read wikipedeia a lot and program on scratch, but that seems to be disappearing. So I am struggling with his use of free time, but then I think that it is *his* free time, why do I get to dictate what is ok? He works hard, he gets exercise, he does his chores, he reads his novel, he plays the piano, he reads the economist.  So he wants to swipe his finger for hours on a tablet, is this really a problem?  Some of me says yes and some of me says no. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by lewelma

[quark]

Just took a look at your siggy...Ruth, it sounds like he is well on track and doing some really challenging work! :grouphug:

[lewelma]

I know, Quark.  But there is more too it than that.  We are having some conflict, not huge, but it is there, and I don't like it.  I'm trying to sort out my own perception of what I value in an education because I have wandered down a path that I don't think I should be on, and I am not quite clear as to where I want to be and how to get there.  This thread has been very valuable to helping me modify my thinking.  :001_smile:

[SanDiegoMom]

    I am not allowed to quote, but my oldest daughter has close friends in CA who are PS juniors and on the Ivy league track. One particular friend has had her parents enroll her in $2,000 SAT classes and prestigious summer programs, all while she has been suffering migraines, panic attacks, and depression due to the expectations. In an existential crisis she wrote my daughter about her disgust with this process she is stuck in. Trying to cram in the most AP classes and extra-curriculars, participating in every club possible to show "leadership qualities",  devoting hours and hours to community service,  all to create the most perfect application compared to countless others who are doing the same. These kids are so burned out, and all of their self worth rests on this college application.  There's no love of learning, its all fear at this point -- fear of letting down their parents, fear of getting less that 100 percent, fear of doing anything different because they might fail.  It's so sad. They don't even know who they are or what they really love to do.  I just want to give them a big hug and tell them it will all be ok, they are awesome just the way they are. 

    I sense that these kids are internalizing the message that they are not successful unless their life is out of balance -- getting little sleep, working long hours, never indulging in mental health or downtime. And that without external validation they are nothing.  Right now your son has balance, he throws himself full force into the things he is passionate in, and rather than doing many things well, he does a few things with excellence and intense focus.  I would think those would be the qualities that would bring him more happiness into his adult life,

[lewelma]

Thanks for that story, SanDiegoMom. How sad for her. :crying: I think that doing math competitions and trying to get excellence on all standard exams is enough for ds.  He does not want *more* pressure with the scholarship exams. We have been dabbling in the idea and it sounds like we need to stop. Luckily for us it is school holidays for the next 10 days, so ds and I can sit down and have a good long talk and come to a shared understanding of the path forward.