Helping a child be more cooperative with school

[Bluegoat]

I am completely torn about whether to send my dd8 to ps next year.  I keep going back and forth.  I've gone so far as to work out a plan that we could use, but I am still not sure.

 

She doesn't want to go, but a big part of that is an aversion to change, and shyness.

 

My dd11 will be starting ps at the same school, so she would be able to walk with her and wouldn't be totally alone. 

 

My biggest issue is that next year will be busy for us, and I will be limited in what I can do.  I will have a new baby in October, an almost two-year old, and my ds6 will be starting K.

 

If dd8 was fairly cooperative, we could make this work.  The problem is she is very adversarial and stubborn about school, even if we use a bare-bones approach.  (In fact I think that makes it worse as she somehow gets the idea that school is a terrible imposition.)

 

I've explained this clearly to her, and suggested she show me that she can be cooperative.  Well, that lasted about one day.  And it doesn't just affect her work, it gets in the way of the other' work as well.

 

Ideally I would keep her home for at least a few more years, but I am feeling like I will end up not only failing to do the minimum with her but not doing what I need to with her brother.

 

I seem to recall with her sister that it was grade 3 and especially grade 4 where she began to be more school oriented, and so I hope I'll luck out if I keep her home and her attitude will magically change.

 

I am just really unsure of what to do.  I need to register them next week.

 

[LLMom]

I had a few with really bad attitudes that went to school. They are as good as gold at school. Kinda frustrating to me, but some kids seem to do better for someone else. She can always come home the next year, if you want. I have one I sent to school for 2 years, and he is coming home next year. He learned homeschooling is much better. I did tell him if he starts in with the attitude, back he goes.

[Lori D.]

I don't know what is best for your family, but school can be a great thing for a child who is resistant to learning at home.

 

That was exactly the age my dear friend stopped homeschooling her strong-willed-uncooperative-about-school son and put him into a charter school (eventually they switched to a private school). She mourned the loss of what they could have had, but he just would not accept her as teacher, so she did the hard, good thing and put him in the educational environment that he would submit to, and it really improved their family relationship as well, as she could just be mom, which is what he wanted/needed.

 

It sounds like you have a very full plate already with a toddler and a pre-schooler, and a child resistant to learning, and it's about to get tougher, with a new baby coming, and starting one of the little ones on learning to read. If you decide to send DD to school, it is NOT a permanent decision -- if it is not working, you can always bring DD home again. :) And, it may turn out to be a great fit for your DD, and provide her the structure and boundaries she needs in order to learn -- sometimes a very routine structure and clear boundaries are exactly what the most strong-willed people need in order to thrive. Making the decision now would also give DD several months to transition to the idea, as you can casually talk about things in terms of "when you're in school next year", and as you buy school clothes, a special backpack, and school supplies.

 

Congratulations on the new little one, and BEST of luck for you and your DD for a wonderful year next year, whatever you decide. Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Ravin]

I am completely torn about whether to send my dd8 to ps next year.  I keep going back and forth.  I've gone so far as to work out a plan that we could use, but I am still not sure.

 

She doesn't want to go, but a big part of that is an aversion to change, and shyness.

 

My dd11 will be starting ps at the same school, so she would be able to walk with her and wouldn't be totally alone. 

 

My biggest issue is that next year will be busy for us, and I will be limited in what I can do.  I will have a new baby in October, an almost two-year old, and my ds6 will be starting K.

 

If dd8 was fairly cooperative, we could make this work.  The problem is she is very adversarial and stubborn about school, even if we use a bare-bones approach.  (In fact I think that makes it worse as she somehow gets the idea that school is a terrible imposition.)

 

I've explained this clearly to her, and suggested she show me that she can be cooperative.  Well, that lasted about one day.  And it doesn't just affect her work, it gets in the way of the other' work as well.

 

Ideally I would keep her home for at least a few more years, but I am feeling like I will end up not only failing to do the minimum with her but not doing what I need to with her brother.

 

I seem to recall with her sister that it was grade 3 and especially grade 4 where she began to be more school oriented, and so I hope I'll luck out if I keep her home and her attitude will magically change.

 

I am just really unsure of what to do.  I need to register them next week.

 

1. If it is your district public school, you should be able to register whenever. It's not as though they can refuse to enroll a student for late registration.

 

2. Sending her to school will not magically change her attitude either. I know this from personal experience. You will wrangle over homework instead, and have to get her out of bed and going 5 days a week whether she wants to or not. And she may butt heads with teachers. Etc.

[Storygirl]

We sent three of my kids to school this year. There were many reasons, but the primary one was how hard it was for one of them to cooperate with me. He is doing much better at school. We do still have some struggles while doing homework, but that has been easier to manage than the constant conflict that we had before. I was heartbroken that he seemed to reject my instruction as his teacher.

 

It was an extremely difficult decision, but it was a good one for our family. If you try it, and it turns out to be a poor choice for your daughter, you can pull her back out again. It sounds like you have a lot on your plate, so it might be worth a try.

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with the others, this may help, it may not but you won't know until you try.  Some children do better if Mom is Mom and academics are primarily handled by an outside source.  Some kids very much need the additional structure as well.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Bluegoat]

THanks for the ideas, all.

 

Ravin - yes, you are right I could register her later.  They prefer it to be done before they do teacher assignments though, and I think that is a reasonable request.  IN any case, for us there will not be some new change I don't think, and it is probably better to give dd8 lots of time to get used to the idea.

 

I think this has decided me - I will give it a try.  In classes and things, dd is far more willing to work with other people than she is for me.  And if it is a disaster, we can always make a change.

 

I think I will see if I can arrange to have her get a tour of the school.  Anxiety about change really is a major factor for her with this.

[ElizaG]

She doesn't want to go, but a big part of that is an aversion to change, and shyness.

 

(...)

 

If dd8 was fairly cooperative, we could make this work.  The problem is she is very adversarial and stubborn about school, even if we use a bare-bones approach.  (In fact I think that makes it worse as she somehow gets the idea that school is a terrible imposition.)

 

I've explained this clearly to her, and suggested she show me that she can be cooperative.  Well, that lasted about one day.  And it doesn't just affect her work, it gets in the way of the other' work as well.

:grouphug:  I have some experience with stubbornness of the 8 year old girl variety.  Not about school, in our case, but about chores, bedtime, changing out of a favorite shirt when it's dirty, and other such "terrible impositions,"  as you aptly put it. 

 

At the present time, what are the consequences for her refusal to do schoolwork? 

 

(I mean the real, understandable-to-a-homeschooled-8-year-old, everyday ones.  Not the big theoretical one of "my parents might send me to school.")

[Bluegoat]

:grouphug:  I have some experience with stubbornness of the 8 year old girl variety.  Not about school, in our case, but about chores, bedtime, changing out of a favorite shirt when it's dirty, and other such "terrible impositions,"  as you aptly put it. 

 

At the present time, what are the consequences for her refusal to do schoolwork? 

 

(I mean the real, understandable-to-a-homeschooled-8-year-old, everyday ones.  Not the big theoretical one of "my parents might send me to school.")

 

I don't seem to have found any good ones.  I tend to go with loss of screen time, or removal of stuffed animals, because those things matter to her, and I find them enforcable. 

 

I think it would actually work well if her dad did more of her work with her, as they are very similar in their thinking, but he really has a lot on his plate at the moment.

[PeterPan]

THanks for the ideas, all.

 

Ravin - yes, you are right I could register her later.  They prefer it to be done before they do teacher assignments though, and I think that is a reasonable request.  IN any case, for us there will not be some new change I don't think, and it is probably better to give dd8 lots of time to get used to the idea.

 

I think this has decided me - I will give it a try.  In classes and things, dd is far more willing to work with other people than she is for me.  And if it is a disaster, we can always make a change.

 

I think I will see if I can arrange to have her get a tour of the school.  Anxiety about change really is a major factor for her with this.

Just as a suggestion, you might want to go ahead and make a formal written request for the school to eval to see if she needs an IEP.  Now maybe they'll say oh we want to watch her for a grading period first.  That can happen.  My ds has an IEP and we're updating it and doing more evals for it right now.  (He gets a disability scholarship through the state and needs an IEP to qualify.)  There's a lot they will do within the school FOR ANXIETY.  It's a HUGE issue in schools, and they could eval for that (there are tests) and actually put a plan in place.  

 

The other thing that process would tell you is what it would take to help her succeed at home.  I can tell you that the list of supports they would give her (non-medication, actual supports and things they use with her) could be extensive.  There are programs like The 5 Point Scale, counseling, visual schedules, timers, reward/incentive systems.  They might give her extensive supports.  That anxiety could be what's making her so hard to work with at home.  Seeing their list would then tell you ok that's what I *could* do but that's not *realistic* for me.  Kwim?

 

So I would get that discussion going about the anxiety, show how concerned you are, and see if they would go ahead and eval and create an IEP.  

[Bluegoat]

Just as a suggestion, you might want to go ahead and make a formal written request for the school to eval to see if she needs an IEP.  Now maybe they'll say oh we want to watch her for a grading period first.  That can happen.  My ds has an IEP and we're updating it and doing more evals for it right now.  (He gets a disability scholarship through the state and needs an IEP to qualify.)  There's a lot they will do within the school FOR ANXIETY.  It's a HUGE issue in schools, and they could eval for that (there are tests) and actually put a plan in place.  

 

The other thing that process would tell you is what it would take to help her succeed at home.  I can tell you that the list of supports they would give her (non-medication, actual supports and things they use with her) could be extensive.  There are programs like The 5 Point Scale, counseling, visual schedules, timers, reward/incentive systems.  They might give her extensive supports.  That anxiety could be what's making her so hard to work with at home.  Seeing their list would then tell you ok that's what I *could* do but that's not *realistic* for me.  Kwim?

 

So I would get that discussion going about the anxiety, show how concerned you are, and see if they would go ahead and eval and create an IEP.  

 

I'm not sure that we have IEPs here though I suppose there must be some equivalent.

 

But I don't think it would really be applicable to her situation unless I'm misunderstanding its purpose.  Her anxiety is well within normal ranges - she is just 8 and doesn't have a lot of experience handling it yet. 

[ElizaG]

I don't seem to have found any good ones.  I tend to go with loss of screen time, or removal of stuffed animals, because those things matter to her, and I find them enforcable. 

 

I think it would actually work well if her dad did more of her work with her, as they are very similar in their thinking, but he really has a lot on his plate at the moment.

This might not apply to you, but when we were in a similar situation, I got some help from both the "Nurtured Heart approach," and Kevin Leman's Have a New Kid by Friday. 

 

NH says that the child who constantly misbehaves is trying to push your buttons, because they feel disconnected from you, and even a negative connection is better than no connection.   The parent is supposed to respond very calmly and minimally to bad behavior (they call it doing a "reset"), and look for more positive ways to connect with the child, including pretty effusive praise for any step in the right direction. 

 

Leman has sort of a similar idea, but more on the material side than the relational.  When you ask DC to do something, you "say it once, turn around, walk away."  No raised voices, threats, promises, reminders, or sales pitches.   Later on, you give the family some sort of unexpected treat, but don't give it to the child(ren) who misbehaved.  Again, no drama, no rigamarole; when the child asks why she didn't get one, just calmly explain, "the cookies are for people who did their work when they were asked to."   And in my experience, it does get results within a couple of days. 

 

I didn't end up sticking with either method, because they seemed kind of artificial and dog-training-ish IYKWIM (and I have more traditional views on discipline than NH), but they did make me realize that we didn't have enough "positives" in our homeschool.   It might seem to me that a given child has something to lose -- materially and relationally -- by misbehaving, but if they don't feel that themselves, it's doubtful that any amount of talking-to will convince them. 

 

Since you mentioned that this is affecting the other children, you might also look at Dreikurs.  Again, I don't agree with some of his underlying philosophy; he seems to think that in today's democratic society, adult authority has been replaced with peer pressure, and we should just go along with that.  So he's thinking in terms of group management, rather than building parent-child relationships.   While I'm coming at this with a different perspective from Alfie Kohn's, I think he actually pegs Dreikurs very well - see his criticisms here and here.  Still, it's true that children need to find their place in groups, so it can be helpful to think about the dynamics in those terms, especially in sibling situations.  

 

These sites list the four basic types of misbehavior, and their effects on parents or teachers:

 

http://users.metu.edu.tr/e133376/project/The%20Social%20Discipline%20Model%20of%20Rudolf%20Dreikurs.htm

 

https://ulmclassroommanagement.wikispaces.com/Rudolf+Dreikurs

 

Again, I don't agree with many of their suggested ways of handling these behaviors.  But the model is interesting. 

 

As a further note... even if you're opposed to behaviorism in principle (as I am), keep in mind that if your child goes to school, the teacher will have no such qualms.  So something like Leman's method might be worth a try in the short term, if nothing else seems to be helping.   (I don't think it's necessary to have the book to try it out.  As is common with this sort of advice, the basic idea can be summed up in a few sentences, and then you get many pages of anecdotal examples and filler.)

 

Wishing you the best in figuring this out.

Edited April 17, 2016 by ElizaG

[Bluegoat]

This might not apply to you, but when we were in a similar situation, I got some help from both the "Nurtured Heart approach," and Kevin Leman's Have a New Kid by Friday. 

 

NH says that the child who constantly misbehaves is trying to push your buttons, because they feel disconnected from you, and even a negative connection is better than no connection.   The parent is supposed to respond very calmly and minimally to bad behavior (they call it doing a "reset"), and look for more positive ways to connect with the child, including pretty effusive praise for any step in the right direction. 

 

Leman has sort of a similar idea, but more on the material side than the relational.  When you ask DC to do something, you "say it once, turn around, walk away."  No raised voices, threats, promises, reminders, or sales pitches.   Later on, you give the family some sort of unexpected treat, but don't give it to the child(ren) who misbehaved.  Again, no drama, no rigamarole; when the child asks why she didn't get one, just calmly explain, "the cookies are for people who did their work when they were asked to."   And in my experience, it does get results within a couple of days. 

 

I didn't end up sticking with either method, because they seemed kind of artificial and dog-training-ish IYKWIM (and I have more traditional views on discipline than NH), but they did make me realize that we didn't have enough "positives" in our homeschool.   It might seem to me that a given child has something to lose -- materially and relationally -- by misbehaving, but if they don't feel that themselves, it's doubtful that any amount of talking-to will convince them. 

 

Since you mentioned that this is affecting the other children, you might also look at Dreikurs.  Again, I don't agree with some of his underlying philosophy; he seems to think that in today's democratic society, adult authority has been replaced with peer pressure, and we should just go along with that.  So he's thinking in terms of group management, rather than building parent-child relationships.   While I'm coming at this with a different perspective from Alfie Kohn's, I think he actually pegs Dreikurs very well - see his criticisms here and here.  Still, it's true that children need to find their place in groups, so it can be helpful to think about the dynamics in those terms, especially in sibling situations.  

 

These sites list the four basic types of misbehavior, and their effects on parents or teachers:

 

http://users.metu.edu.tr/e133376/project/The%20Social%20Discipline%20Model%20of%20Rudolf%20Dreikurs.htm

 

https://ulmclassroommanagement.wikispaces.com/Rudolf+Dreikurs

 

Again, I don't agree with many of their suggested ways of handling these behaviors.  But the model is interesting. 

 

As a further note... even if you're opposed to behaviorism in principle (as I am), keep in mind that if your child goes to school, the teacher will have no such qualms.  So something like Leman's method might be worth a try in the short term, if nothing else seems to be helping.   (I don't think it's necessary to have the book to try it out.  As is common with this sort of advice, the basic idea can be summed up in a few sentences, and then you get many pages of anecdotal examples and filler.)

 

Wishing you the best in figuring this out.

 

There are lots of interesting ideas there, thanks!

 

I wouldn't say I'm opposed to behaviorism - I think it does work in many cases and has a place.  Perhaps especially it is worthwhile to realize what kinds of things are being reinforced without any intention on our part, or to set some things up so they automatically indicate whether a behavior is desirable or not - there are only so many things a parent can be noticing at any one time, and natural consequences where they exist do have a real power.  I also find some of the behaviorist discipline methods distasteful though, and rather manipulative.  With really pre-rational children they can help management, with older kids it is something else, I always think most adults would be upset to find people deliberately using these techniques on them.

 

The group dynamic is an interesting point, and I think is a factor here, particularly in that at this point dd8 has more in common with the younger kids in the household, ds6 and the little girl we babysit who is almost 5.  They aren't doing much in the way of schoolwork yet, and she spends much of her free time playing with them.  Dd11 is just in a different place with her school work and interests.

[ElizaG]

there are only so many things a parent can be noticing at any one time

Now, this is true!!!  :laugh:

 

The group dynamic is an interesting point, and I think is a factor here, particularly in that at this point dd8 has more in common with the younger kids in the household, ds6 and the little girl we babysit who is almost 5.  They aren't doing much in the way of schoolwork yet, and she spends much of her free time playing with them.  Dd11 is just in a different place with her school work and interests.

This can take some tact.  How to handle it would depend somewhat on the type of schoolwork. 

 

How long would the 8 year old's work take, if she did it without much delay? 

 

Is there a way that the younger ones can also be seated in the school area during that time, doing something that isn't heavy academics, but isn't the sort of play that would make her want to join in?   (Just giving them blank paper and crayons seems to work here.   We've also done workboxes at times, with things like coloring pages, cube puzzles, and whatever else I can find that isn't distracting or enticing.) 

 

Or if you're reading aloud or doing content work, do you have them listen in as well?  

 

Basically, if she identifies with the younger ones, it seems important to have some similarity in the way their "school" is structured.  Even if some of them aren't reading yet. 

 

At the same time, make sure that some of her "big girl" work is special, helps build bonds between you, and gives her a sense of accomplishment outside of the little ones' group.   It could be schoolwork or chores. 

 

Mine seem to need to spend time in both these modes until around age 10, when they start to prefer independent work (with mentoring as needed), and collaboration on specific projects.  They still play with the little ones, but aren't so personally attached to their goings-on.  :001_smile:

[Bluegoat]

Now, this is true!!!  :laugh:

 

This can take some tact.  How to handle it would depend somewhat on the type of schoolwork. 

 

How long would the 8 year old's work take, if she did it without much delay? 

 

Is there a way that the younger ones can also be seated in the school area during that time, doing something that isn't heavy academics, but isn't the sort of play that would make her want to join in?   (Just giving them blank paper and crayons seems to work here.   We've also done workboxes at times, with things like coloring pages, cube puzzles, and whatever else I can find that isn't distracting or enticing.) 

 

Or if you're reading aloud or doing content work, do you have them listen in as well?  

 

Basically, if she identifies with the younger ones, it seems important to have some similarity in the way their "school" is structured.  Even if some of them aren't reading yet. 

 

At the same time, make sure that some of her "big girl" work is special, helps build bonds between you, and gives her a sense of accomplishment outside of the little ones' group.   It could be schoolwork or chores. 

 

Mine seem to need to spend time in both these modes until around age 10, when they start to prefer independent work (with mentoring as needed), and collaboration on specific projects.  They still play with the little ones, but aren't so personally attached to their goings-on.  :001_smile:

 

Yes, I think this could be a good idea.  I've done this a little in the past, but it seemed clear my son wasn't ready to sit still yet, but he might well do better now.  By next year he really will need to be doing a little sit down work.  (I find his so different from my girls, they all knew their letters and numbers without me teachingg them, he doesn't care about letters and not much about the number symbols either.)

 

The little girl loves doing school, colouring and worsheets, anything like that, so she is easy to manage that way - she'll be off at school next year, I won't have her at all, so it would really just be dd8 and ds6 as students.  They dynamic might be quite different.

 

As for time it is fairly short at the moment, only about an hour.  Thinking about this, it was actually more before Christmas, as she was also doing more things along with dd11 - French sometimes, artist study, science.  It tapered off in part because I was unwell, but also I think probably because the toddler (the brother of the little girl) started coming after Christmas. 

 

However - this all gives me some thoughts for managing things a little differently.  Getting ds on board may actually be significant.  Now that the weather is better and I am feeling fairly well, it will help that we can get outside more too.