When University Profs Don't Appear to Have Read Students' Papers ...

[Cleopatra]

It is hard to tell out of context how to take the professor's comment.  Is the professor suggesting that sentence as a concise, appropriate thesis statement that summarizes what your daughter is saying in her paper? 

 

Also, it is not unusual for a professor to read and mark the paper during an initially reading.  Although I am not teaching English, I seldom read an entire paper and then go back and mark it.  Sometimes I do find that a student tells me something later in the paper.  At times I go back and place a comment next to the original comment that I found the information.  Sometimes I forget or do not take the time to do that.  Sometimes a check mark or a big "yes" next to the material suffices.  Other times, I won't to point out to the student that a reader is confused and thinking one thing until the reader provides the information later in the paper.

 

She's put the comment in the third paragraph where my dd begins to define an anti-hero, so it really does appear that she is assuming what my dd is going to say.   A comment later is similar.  Yes, it's certainly possible that my dd was not clear enough for the professor on her thesis statement, but there is nothing marked there, except a check mark.  So I guess she'll find out when she goes in to ask.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you do have to hit readers over the head with your points in university papers in the proper schematic with very little room for originality.  My dd was attempting to be subtle and show more than tell, but I wonder if this approach could be a detriment.

[Cleopatra]

I think there is grave danger in relying on the opinions of even well-respected instructors who do not actually have the authority to issue a grade when deciding whether a paper is acceptable. I am certain there is grave danger in telling the professor who is authorized to issue a grade that others found the work acceptable. If you are so frustrated with the situation that you begin to see it as a conspiracy theory to save money on scholarships, then it is probably time to take a step back. 

 

 

Wow, that was a very uncharitable response.  The link to grading and scholarships is certainly a logical possibility; from a business POV it certainly makes sense.  I'm not sure if it's true or not, however, which was why I was asking .... for information.  I'm not frustrated with the situation, I'm simply looking for information that pertains to the situation.  My dd is a 16 year old trying to navigate the expectations of university life; both of us are "newbies" and we've received tons of wonderful help on this thread.  If my comments have bothered you enough to elicit that response, it's probably best not to read them.

[8filltheheart]

My dd was attempting to be subtle and show more than tell, but I wonder if this approach could be a detriment.

Gently...perhaps she was so subtle that her actual thesis was not developed clearly. Sometimes what is clear to the student or to someone the student has discussed the paper with is not actually clear in just the paper itself without that additional context.

[regentrude]

I think there is grave danger in relying on the opinions of even well-respected instructors who do not actually have the authority to issue a grade when deciding whether a paper is acceptable. I am certain there is grave danger in telling the professor who is authorized to issue a grade that others found the work acceptable.

 

That is a very good point.

OP, your DD should NOT, absolutely NOT, tell the professor "but my high school English teacher thought...". No. just... no.

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by regentrude

[Cleopatra]

That is a very good point.

OP, your DD should NOT, absolutely NOT, tell the professor "but my high school English teacher thought...". No. just... no.

 

 

Don't worry, she won't.  She just wanted to make sure her feeling about the prof possibly not reading the paper was accurate and they both concurred.  But she would NEVER bring that up to the professor.

 

My dd is very good with people, so I'm sure the conversation will go fine. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Cleopatra]

Gently...perhaps she was so subtle that her actual thesis was not developed clearly. Sometimes what is clear to the student or to someone the student has discussed the paper with is not actually clear in just the paper itself without that additional context.

 

It's certainly possible.  

 

I've been reading some essays by Wendell Berry, E.B. White, Chesterton, Montaigne, etc. and many of them are brilliantly insightful without the tight academic structure.  Why is academic writing so structured?  It is a stepping stone, in that only after learning the rules can you break them?  Just another thought I'm pondering .... 

[regentrude]

I've been reading some essays by Wendell Berry, E.B. White, Chesterton, Montaigne, etc. and many of them are brilliantly insightful without the tight academic structure.  Why is academic writing so structured?  It is a stepping stone, in that only after learning the rules can you break them?  Just another thought I'm pondering .... 

 

Yes. What is taught in college introductory composition courses is a stepping stone. Formulaic writing is the first step in the progression, and the instructor needs to ensure that all students have mastered the basic rules and can follow the formula first.

Once you are a brilliant writer, you can break the rules. You can even violate the rules of grammar as a stylistic measure. But not in a  freshman comp class- there you need to demonstrate that you have understood the details of what they teach you.

 

It is the same in other subjects, too. In my intro physics class, I require a level of documentation from my students that would be unnecessary for an advanced student or an actual physicist. Where the beginner has to write out all the steps to ensure the thought process is absolutely solid, the prof can sketch out three lines on the back of a napkin and arrive at the same insight.

This all has a place - even if it is frustrating.

Edited April 12, 2016 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

It's certainly possible.  

 

I've been reading some essays by Wendell Berry, E.B. White, Chesterton, Montaigne, etc. and many of them are brilliantly insightful without the tight academic structure.  Why is academic writing so structured?  It is a stepping stone, in that only after learning the rules can you break them?  Just another thought I'm pondering .... 

 

They probably haven't been simple literary analysis essays with supporting quotes and citation, either.  It is one thing to write an essay as an expert on your subject vs. a college student writing a literary analysis according to what has been taught in class. 

[Pen]

I'm really curious now to read the paper your dd wrote! Any chance she'd let you post it?

[Tsuga]

Wow, that was a very uncharitable response.  The link to grading and scholarships is certainly a logical possibility; from a business POV it certainly makes sense.  

 

Working in higher ed, if faculty, financial aid and student services were able to coordinate that well, we could have the best graduation rates in the nation.

 

The PP was perhaps overly blunt (and who am I to judge, LOL) but the conspiracy theory doesn't really make sense. Scholarships are usually from a foundation that is a 501 c 3, whereas a university may be a public or private institution and the scholarship doesn't come out of some general pool they get to keep if it doesn't go to the students. On the contrary, without those funds (which pay the instructors), they don't get paid, because the student may not pay cash. It's not like some director has $60k he gets to keep if the scholarships are lost. If the students don't attend the college with that money the school has to give it back, or at least remains accountable, if that makes sense.

 

So no, it doesn't actually make sense that they'd get money by flunking your daughter or having her lose her scholarship. We lose money every time a student loses a scholarship because that's private funding that doesn't go into the college as a tuition fee and you can't make it up halfway through the quarter.

 

 

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you do have to hit readers over the head with your points in university papers in the proper schematic with very little room for originality.  My dd was attempting to be subtle and show more than tell, but I wonder if this approach could be a detriment.

 

It's one paper in one class. Maybe this one paper for this one prof was more to get structure over originality. Institutions are not perfectly consistent.

 

Don't take it personally. Sometimes you work really hard and your boss doesn't like it! But you like it. And you disagree with your boss. So you re-do it. The end. :)

Edited April 13, 2016 by Tsuga

[Cleopatra]

Yes. What is taught in college introductory composition courses is a stepping stone. Formulaic writing is the first step in the progression, and the instructor needs to ensure that all students have mastered the basic rules and can follow the formula first.

Once you are a brilliant writer, you can break the rules. You can even violate the rules of grammar as a stylistic measure. But not in a  freshman comp class- there you need to demonstrate that you have understood the details of what they teach you.

 

It is the same in other subjects, too. In my intro physics class, I require a level of documentation from my students that would be unnecessary for an advanced student or an actual physicist. Where the beginner has to write out all the steps to ensure the thought process is absolutely solid, the prof can sketch out three lines on the back of a napkin and arrive at the same insight.

This all has a place - even if it is frustrating.

 

Thanks so much for this feedback.  It certainly makes good sense.  I am getting the impression that while the professor does like her writing, she is trying to corral it, and while it may seem rigid now, it will be for the benefit in the future. 

[Cleopatra]

Working in higher ed, if faculty, financial aid and student services were able to coordinate that well, we could have the best graduation rates in the nation.

 

The PP was perhaps overly blunt (and who am I to judge, LOL) but the conspiracy theory doesn't really make sense. Scholarships are usually from a foundation that is a 501 c 3, whereas a university may be a public or private institution and the scholarship doesn't come out of some general pool they get to keep if it doesn't go to the students. On the contrary, without those funds (which pay the instructors), they don't get paid, because the student may not pay cash. It's not like some director has $60k he gets to keep if the scholarships are lost. If the students don't attend the college with that money the school has to give it back, or at least remains accountable, if that makes sense.

 

So no, it doesn't actually make sense that they'd get money by flunking your daughter or having her lose her scholarship. We lose money every time a student loses a scholarship because that's private funding that doesn't go into the college as a tuition fee and you can't make it up halfway through the quarter.

 

 

It's one paper in one class. Maybe this one paper for this one prof was more to get structure over originality. Institutions are not perfectly consistent.

 

Don't take it personally. Sometimes you work really hard and your boss doesn't like it! But you like it. And you disagree with your boss. So you re-do it. The end. :)

 

The words "conspiracy theory" are inappropriate to use.  They are the PPs words and not mine and my comment was never intended to convey that idea.  I wasn't even thinking about my dd and her situation as to my mind, it didn't apply.  I was told by my friend's daughter that students receive small scholarships based on their grades, but of course, you have to be enrolled full-time to receive them (it's a Canadian private university so I believe it works differently than the U.S. ...??).  I assumed it was possible they would possibly grade harder because of this.  Again, I was not aggrieved or attempting to be accusatory or (again) even referring to my dd .... I was simply curious and trying to gather information.  I now rather regret it.   :sad:

 

Thanks for the information with regard to the way U.S. scholarships work, as I was completely ignorant in that area.

 

Do I really sound like I'm taking it personally?  I'm not, honestly.  From the end comments, the professor loved my daughter's writing, she likes her and my daughter likes the professor.  But it appears the professor either didn't read the paper well, or misunderstood something; that is really the only relevant issue at this point.  So my dd simply needs to get it sorted out. 

Edited April 13, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Cleopatra]

I'm really curious now to read the paper your dd wrote! Any chance she'd let you post it?

 

I can ask her but I wouldn't post it here.  If a highschool English teacher, AP English teacher and a professor (and I didn't mentiion the Orthodox priest who was another editor :ohmy: ) can't agree, I can imagine the kerfuffle it would cause here with differing opinions.  If you like, I can ask her if she minds if I send it to you in a pm.  She might go for that.

 

In any case, I'll talk with her after she sees the professor ---- now it will be Thursday.  My dd said there was a line of students today wanting to speak with her today about their essays and there wasn't enough time to see her.  Her office hours on Thursday are longer than an hour, so she's hoping to get in then.

[fdrinca]

I graded so many essays while in graduate school. So. Many. Essays. To say nothing of exams....

 

So, please take my comments with that POV.

 

 

She's put the comment in the third paragraph where my dd begins to define an anti-hero, so it really does appear that she is assuming what my dd is going to say.   A comment later is similar.  Yes, it's certainly possible that my dd was not clear enough for the professor on her thesis statement, but there is nothing marked there, except a check mark.  So I guess she'll find out when she goes in to ask.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you do have to hit readers over the head with your points in university papers in the proper schematic with very little room for originality.  My dd was attempting to be subtle and show more than tell, but I wonder if this approach could be a detriment.

 

This makes me think your DD's thesis was too weak. It should be clear from the first or second paragraph that she's arguing Bilbo is neither hero nor anithero. Subtlety is not your friend when writing essays of this nature, especially when the consumer is reading dozens at a time. 

 

I would always tell my students: I do not want you to show me your SAT words. I do not need clever word play. I want to know your argument. Content > style.

 

 

It's certainly possible.  

 

I've been reading some essays by Wendell Berry, E.B. White, Chesterton, Montaigne, etc. and many of them are brilliantly insightful without the tight academic structure.  Why is academic writing so structured?  It is a stepping stone, in that only after learning the rules can you break them?  Just another thought I'm pondering .... 

 

Partly academic writing is so structured because not all academics are gifted writers. They can be brilliant minds, make great associations, run fantastic labs, but writing simply is a means to an end. That end? Presenting information.

 

Partly academic writing is structured because the consumers wish it to be easily digestible. It was not uncommon for me to read several dozen journal articles a day while in the thick of my degree. I looked for thesis paragraphs, topic sentences, and conclusion paragraphs. I didn't want to get boggled down in subtlety. 

 

If the author has anything interesting to say, it will be interesting without out-of-the-box style. 

[Laura Corin]

 We had a prof in the department I studied in who was coming from England, and the kinds of letters of reccomendation written by the English were not what Canadians and Americans were expecting - they tended toward the realistic rather than the glowing.

 

 

I work in a university in Scotland and we have the inverse problem: every duck is a swan in the recommendation letters from the US, so it's really hard to work out who will be successful (or should be offered a bursary) for an intensive one-year masters programme.

An enormous difference between a homeschooling mom and a professor is the amount of time devoted to grading and assessment.  I have no idea how many classes this professor is teaching, or how many students total she has.  It seems reasonable to guess that she has at the very least 30 students whose papers she needs to return in short order, possibly a lot more. Given that, a good guess is that she spends just 10 minutes grading each one, and writes comments during her first and only reading.  You keep saying that the professor "didn't read the paper", or "didn't read the paper well", despite writing all kinds of comments on the paper

 

The golden rule in writing anything is to know the audience.  And in this case, the audience probably gives the paper one quick read through, with the detritus of every previous essay still lurking in her head.  So, there is little place for subtlety here.

[Bluegoat]

I think GGarnder means that if the professor took the time and effort to notice comma splices, the professor must have read the paper.  This does not sound as if it is a situation where the professor simply put a grade on a paper without reading it.   

 

It sounds like a major fail though to miss the main point of the paper, unless it was really very unclear.  Given the number of other people who read it, it doesn't seem that it was that poorly expressed.

 

FWIW, I've always read papers once for things like formatting and technical problems, and a second time for content.  It's difficult to keep both in mind at once.

[Bluegoat]

More box-ticking ...... that's interesting.  My friend seems to think she learns more from the Canadian profs, but I'm sure the trend of the UK & US profs will come here eventually.  When I look at U.S. structures for essays, I've noticed that they do seem more rigid, and therefore there is less room for creativity and developing your own style.  It's too bad .....

 

 

 

I don't disagree with your view, but I felt the professor nitpicked.  My dd was attempting to show that instead of the classic hero (with fame and glory and bravery but lacking in humility or ethical traits) or the present-day anti-hero (who is dark, conflicted yet lacks ethics and is often ruled by emotion), Tolkien presented in Bilbo a new type of hero.   The intent with my dd's essay was not to present that Bilbo was a Christian hero, but instead that Tolkien brought heroism out of the realms of the gods, or superheroes and into the realms of man.  However, the Christian worldview component is still shown in her essay, the reader is simply not beaten over the head with it.  In the same way, Tolkien's Christian worldview was echoed in his writing but wasn't absolutely obvious.The professor appears to have wanted my dd to use words such as "fallen"; when my dd separated "courage" and "moral decision" when describing Bilbo, she wanted her to use "moral courage" (my dd separated them because she wanted to emphasize the different heroes --- ie. Achilles has courage but he is not moral,--- and also wanted to separate courage from decision as they do not always go together - an important point); and she wanted my dd to put that Bilbo's courage was "true heroism".  I just thought it was going a little far by putting her (the profs) opinions over my dds and being super picky.  

 

Even so, in other areas of the essay, the professor does have comments that are quite valid.  Because of the overlapping components of the essay --- each of the three heroes can share certain traits --- my dd could perhaps have used better wording or been clearer in her explanations in a couple of parts.    

 

I don't think it's over-stepping to put the profs opinion over your daughter's - that is to a large extent what she gets paid for.  Opinions are a penny a pound.

 

Actually that reminds me very much of a comment from my tutor on my first university esseay - which was something-or-other about why the gods in the Illiad behaved a particular way.  What I said was fine, but not, in her opinion (far more informed than mine), adaquate to the question.  I needed to dig a little deeper. 

 

Remember too, academic essays, even ones about literature, really are different than literary essays by people like Berry - they are a whole different genre of writing.  They are in many ways more like technical writing, and are more closely related to a scientific paper than a literary essay.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bluegoat

[Pen]

Yes. If she'd allow it, I'd love to see it as a PM. I am both curious as a once upon a time English major at an Ivy League Uni, and also as I am thinking about my ds taking DE classes and wondering what is being expected nowadays!

[hornblower]

Pen, this might be partly a regional thing. (Cleo and I are in the same part of Canada, in a province with an extremely smooth transfer system which means most courses, esp 1st and 2nd yr are extremely similar in content and expectation)

 

When my dd was having probs with her Engl course, we were stunned. By then she had written papers for several classes, incl 2nd year anthropology. She had never got lower than an A or A+. She knows how to write, and always had someone read her paper before handing it in.

 

As I mentioned above, the English departments hammer you way down. Her first assignment, mercifully not worth much, was marked as a C/C-

 

I can probably dig out some samples for you if you also want (by pm).

 

For dd, she had to forget how to write and a) contort herself into a very strict structure and b) parrot back the prof's ideas. She got heavily marked down on veering from an interpretation which was discussed in class. Dd offered an alternative, supported it with a close reading and analysis but it wasn't well received. She's a stubborn chickie but in the end, also pragmatic. She needed a certain mark for her gpa and admission to a certain program and once she realized this is how it is, she just did what was needed and consoled herself with the horrible feedback she planned to leave for the course :D She also was sure she had enough for grade appeal if necessary (and it wasn't in the end) and that fire kept her going lol.

 

It was extremely stressful for her and the rest of us were treated to an earful as she ranted about this course at length. Her younger brother is a beneficiary of all this because I now know exactly how to prep him, and it's not really what is in the curricula I have.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JennyD]

 

When your daughter goes to talk to the professor, one thing she might ask is whether the professor has any samples of old "A" papers that she might read.  I keep copies of the very best student work to make available to future students as examples. (I always ask the writers' permission, of course.)  IME, it is not uncommon for freshman students to wildly underestimate what the very top of the class looks like.  

 

 

[vonfirmath]

An enormous difference between a homeschooling mom and a professor is the amount of time devoted to grading and assessment.  I have no idea how many classes this professor is teaching, or how many students total she has.  It seems reasonable to guess that she has at the very least 30 students whose papers she needs to return in short order, possibly a lot more. Given that, a good guess is that she spends just 10 minutes grading each one, and writes comments during her first and only reading.  You keep saying that the professor "didn't read the paper", or "didn't read the paper well", despite writing all kinds of comments on the paper

 

The golden rule in writing anything is to know the audience.  And in this case, the audience probably gives the paper one quick read through, with the detritus of every previous essay still lurking in her head.  So, there is little place for subtlety here.

 

25 years ago, my dad went back to college when I was still in HS.  I remember him telling me that he spent the first paper of every English class figuring out what the teacher wanted. Then that is what he gave the teacher for every other paper that semester (i think Texas A&M was on the semester basis at that point).  Me? I decided I didn't want to take any more ENglish than I had to so I went into a hard science degree and took AP English to test out of the freshman required english class.

[Cleopatra]

I graded so many essays while in graduate school. So. Many. Essays. To say nothing of exams....

 

So, please take my comments with that POV.

 

 

 

This makes me think your DD's thesis was too weak. It should be clear from the first or second paragraph that she's arguing Bilbo is neither hero nor anithero. Subtlety is not your friend when writing essays of this nature, especially when the consumer is reading dozens at a time. 

 

I would always tell my students: I do not want you to show me your SAT words. I do not need clever word play. I want to know your argument. Content > style.

 

 

 

Partly academic writing is so structured because not all academics are gifted writers. They can be brilliant minds, make great associations, run fantastic labs, but writing simply is a means to an end. That end? Presenting information.

 

Partly academic writing is structured because the consumers wish it to be easily digestible. It was not uncommon for me to read several dozen journal articles a day while in the thick of my degree. I looked for thesis paragraphs, topic sentences, and conclusion paragraphs. I didn't want to get boggled down in subtlety. 

 

If the author has anything interesting to say, it will be interesting without out-of-the-box style. 

 

Yes, her thesis statement could have been too weak.  They did spend a class on writing their thesis statements and my dd took her thesis statement into the professor with the outline for her essay so I assumed that wouldn't have been the case.  I'll have to ask her more about it i.e., whether she altered the original statement, etc.  

 

That's a really good point about the academic writing ...... it allows people who are perhaps not naturally good writers to be successful.  My dd's writing program taught originality/style within structure and she's used to examples like Ben Franklin, and those who perhaps wrote outside the box.  She will probably need to conform somewhat to these new expectations.  Her friend in class, who received really low marks for her first two essays, decided to write the research essay sticking rigidly to the thesis statement/topic sentence/concluding sentence structure, and used all the catch words, like scientism, materialism, magnanimity.  Her thoughts weren't that well-developed, as she basically put "scientism does this, here is an example from the book; materialism does this, here is an example from the book," etc. and she received a much higher mark than before.  The essay was rather boring (and she knew it), but she decided to jump that hoop and see what happened.  It seems to have worked, so if that's the case, my dd will just have to get less creative and more technical.

 

 

An enormous difference between a homeschooling mom and a professor is the amount of time devoted to grading and assessment.  I have no idea how many classes this professor is teaching, or how many students total she has.  It seems reasonable to guess that she has at the very least 30 students whose papers she needs to return in short order, possibly a lot more. Given that, a good guess is that she spends just 10 minutes grading each one, and writes comments during her first and only reading.  You keep saying that the professor "didn't read the paper", or "didn't read the paper well", despite writing all kinds of comments on the paper

 

The golden rule in writing anything is to know the audience.  And in this case, the audience probably gives the paper one quick read through, with the detritus of every previous essay still lurking in her head.  So, there is little place for subtlety here.

 

This is a really good point, but honestly, the comment is quite obviously inaccurate, even if the thesis statement is weak.  Both the references to Bilbo not being an anti-hero are in concluding sentences.  It's been helpful though to hear that the markers might just skim the papers and I'll pass that information on to my dd.  

 

 

It sounds like a major fail though to miss the main point of the paper, unless it was really very unclear.  Given the number of other people who read it, it doesn't seem that it was that poorly expressed.

 

FWIW, I've always read papers once for things like formatting and technical problems, and a second time for content.  It's difficult to keep both in mind at once.

 

 

Thanks for this comment, Bluegoat.  The professor obviously read it but missed something rather important.  The dual reading for both form and content was exactly what I was expecting and both teacher/editors said the same.  You live in Canada, don't you?  I've noticed differences between expectations of Canadian vs. U.S. courses (high school level) that my daughter has taken, so I wonder if the different expectations come out of these different experiences......

[hornblower]

 

Thanks for this comment, Bluegoat.  The professor obviously read it but missed something rather important.  The dual reading for both form and content was exactly what I was expecting and both teacher/editors said the same.  You live in Canada, don't you?  I've noticed differences between expectations of Canadian vs. U.S. courses (high school level) that my daughter has taken, so I wonder if the different expectations come out of these different experiences......

 

I don't think it's quite that either. 

 

People with 90+ on the Eng 12 provincial were bombing in dd's course. 

 

And dd said the profs have been quite dismissive of high school English instruction. She had no skin in the game since she hadn't taken any of the provincial high school courses but even she was taken aback by how much bashing the instructors did of what the kids learned in high school. 

 

My sense is the provincial curric doesn't quite match what they want either. 

 

You know who did mostly ok? People who went through ESL in the college section for foreign students. They'd been drilled on how to write for the department. Here's a sample of the type of structure some profs are looking for. When they hand out stuff like this, it's not a suggestion. They want it exactly like this. 

 

 

 

 

[Cleopatra]

I don't think it's over-stepping to put the profs opinion over your daughter's - that is to a large extent what she gets paid for.  Opinions are a penny a pound.

 

 

 

Generally with regard to the "opinion" I think my daughter felt that she was taking the essay a certain way, had her arguments well laid out (and confirmed by the editors), yet the prof was putting in these comments to "steer" it a little more to what she would have liked to have heard.  I do see your point though and I doubt she lost marks for them as they were only opinions.  

 

 

Yes. If she'd allow it, I'd love to see it as a PM. I am both curious as a once upon a time English major at an Ivy League Uni, and also as I am thinking about my ds taking DE classes and wondering what is being expected nowadays!

 

I'll certainly ask her.  She's preparing for finals and I have income tax to do, so I'll try to get it out, but if you don't hear from me by the beginning of May, please pm me!  Keep in mind this is a Canadian university and more and more I'm getting a sense that there might be some interesting differences.

 

Pen, this might be partly a regional thing. (Cleo and I are in the same part of Canada, in a province with an extremely smooth transfer system which means most courses, esp 1st and 2nd yr are extremely similar in content and expectation)

 

When my dd was having probs with her Engl course, we were stunned. By then she had written papers for several classes, incl 2nd year anthropology. She had never got lower than an A or A+. She knows how to write, and always had someone read her paper before handing it in.

 

As I mentioned above, the English departments hammer you way down. Her first assignment, mercifully not worth much, was marked as a C/C-

 

I can probably dig out some samples for you if you also want (by pm).

 

For dd, she had to forget how to write and a) contort herself into a very strict structure and b) parrot back the prof's ideas. She got heavily marked down on veering from an interpretation which was discussed in class. Dd offered an alternative, supported it with a close reading and analysis but it wasn't well received. She's a stubborn chickie but in the end, also pragmatic. She needed a certain mark for her gpa and admission to a certain program and once she realized this is how it is, she just did what was needed and consoled herself with the horrible feedback she planned to leave for the course :D She also was sure she had enough for grade appeal if necessary (and it wasn't in the end) and that fire kept her going lol.

 

It was extremely stressful for her and the rest of us were treated to an earful as she ranted about this course at length. Her younger brother is a beneficiary of all this because I now know exactly how to prep him, and it's not really what is in the curricula I have.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

When your daughter received her papers back did you feel that they were thoroughly marked and read?  I really do get the impression that this professor is simply being hard on the kids to challenge them.  I actually don't have a problem with this and actually prefer it, IF the university sticks to their own rules and it does affect a possible scholarship.  I hate grades.  I know that they're necessary for assessment but my, they do seem to get in the way of learning.   :sad:  My dd has worked SO hard in this course: she's spoken often in class, completes her assignments diligently, has met with the professor numerous times for clarification and her mark is virtually unchanged.  She feels a little discouraged because of the marks (and not about the actually mark she's getting necessarily because I think she understands its subjectivity, just that the marks haven't changed to show improvement), even when I show her a noticeable improvement in her writing between her first assignment and her last and even when the professor says that her writing has improved.  Have I said, that I hate grades.   ;)

 

I'm sorry about your daughter's experience.  That's rotten.  My dd has a couple of people in her class who are taking their English classes at this university because of the poor reputation of the English departments at other institutions.

 

I'm also wondering if there are regional differences.  Some of the comments about how things work in the U.S. I've found very different in Canada, and some of my dd's experiences between Canadian and U.S. high school level courses were very different as well.

 

 

 

 

 

When your daughter goes to talk to the professor, one thing she might ask is whether the professor has any samples of old "A" papers that she might read.  I keep copies of the very best student work to make available to future students as examples. (I always ask the writers' permission, of course.)  IME, it is not uncommon for freshman students to wildly underestimate what the very top of the class looks like.  

 

 

Well, as far as we can tell, this professor does not give A's.  My dd will keep asking though.  Many of the students share what they receive on their papers, so she does know that she's doing well and the professor's comments about her are excellent.  I simply think that she's a VERY hard marker.  My dd's friend got an "OUTSTANDING" paper back yesterday with almost no corrections and she received 80%.  I think that's the professor's idea of an A.  

 

 

25 years ago, my dad went back to college when I was still in HS.  I remember him telling me that he spent the first paper of every English class figuring out what the teacher wanted. Then that is what he gave the teacher for every other paper that semester (i think Texas A&M was on the semester basis at that point).  Me? I decided I didn't want to take any more ENglish than I had to so I went into a hard science degree and took AP English to test out of the freshman required english class.

 

:D   Yes, I think there is a huge element of trying to find out what the teacher wants in many cases.  It would probably be wise to stick with a teacher after you've had a course with them, for as many courses as you can, because it takes one course to figure out their preferences.  My daughter threw in something in her "response paper" that she thought the professor would like and she had a glowing comment about it.  It's really disappointing though that there isn't more support for the student developing his own ideas.  However, I've had some excellent classes where the opposite is true.  I took one class where I argued/discussed (nicely, of course) with the professor about the items in the text that we had to use ........ we had such wonderful discussions, I received a great mark and (even though I didn't like the text) it turned out to be one of the most beneficial courses that I've ever taken.  I still remember it fondly to this day.

[hornblower]

 

When your daughter received her papers back did you feel that they were thoroughly marked and read?

 

 

They were definitely marked and read (several of them came back with comments in various handwriting so she definitely knew more than one person was reading. There were 2 profs (it was an odd co-taught class) but I also think there were grad students involved. Tons of comments & one of the profs had huge handwriting so it would be scrawled in giant letters all over. 

 

Looking back, now I understand exactly where they were looking and what they were looking for. I'm not kidding when I say they were looking at first & last sentences of the paragraphs. She did have comments on them which were of the "what? this doesn't follow?" and she'd be rolling her eyes because literally the next sentence explained/expanded on how these ideas are related/why they follow etc. 

 

Well, as far as we can tell, this professor does not give A's.  My dd will keep asking though.  Many of the students share what they receive on their papers, so she does know that she's doing well and the professor's comments about her are excellent.  I simply think that she's a VERY hard marker.  My dd's friend got an "OUTSTANDING" paper back yesterday with almost no corrections and she received 80%.  I think that's the professor's idea of an A.  

 

I think at your school 80 is an A-  (unless the prof has their own marking scheme)

 

 At dd's school you need 85 for an A- 

 

[Cleopatra]

I don't think it's quite that either. 

 

People with 90+ on the Eng 12 provincial were bombing in dd's course. 

 

And dd said the profs have been quite dismissive of high school English instruction. She had no skin in the game since she hadn't taken any of the provincial high school courses but even she was taken aback by how much bashing the instructors did of what the kids learned in high school. 

 

My sense is the provincial curric doesn't quite match what they want either. 

 

You know who did mostly ok? People who went through ESL in the college section for foreign students. They'd been drilled on how to write for the department. Here's a sample of the type of structure some profs are looking for. When they hand out stuff like this, it's not a suggestion. They want it exactly like this. 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, that's really interesting.  Even though my dd is homeschooled, she has many friends who are in public school, so I've seen what's expected and it's atrocious.  My dd's friend in grade 10 wrote a paper about her boyfriend.  Her other friend did a book report on Swallows and Amazons in grade 9.  Bashing the curriculum is not helpful, but I would understand the professors' dismay at the level of competency (or incompetency) from the students who are coming in.  A TA and a professor at this university told me that the percentage of acceptably written papers that they receive is about 15% in first year and they said that was being generous.  Second year is a little better and by 3rd year it's much improved.  

 

But honestly, can you imagine the shock of the students?  Here they've been getting in the 90s and they are all of a sudden bombing.  They must wonder what's hit them and I'm sure it's very discouraging.  Which is why I think the first year profs should give a little more help to these kids.  They have an entrance writing course which everyone has to take unless you test out, but even with that the students still aren't writing well.

 

Your last paragraph is so true.  We boarded a girl who was helping at the writing centre where the students come for assistance.  She said that the ESL students were fairly easy to work with because she could tell them that they'd misplaced a metaphor or their verb was conjugated incorrectly.  With the North American students, they would look at her and say, "what's a verb?"  Yikes.  

 

I'm must say, I'm sooooo glad that I used the writing program I did with my daughter.  She has her grammar down very well, and the program taught style, so she writes well.  Now I think she just needs to conform herself a bit more to the structure, keep working on developing her ideas, and she'll do just fine.  If she came in without style, with the emphasis on structure, I think it would be too late to learn it now.  

[Cleopatra]

 

When your daughter received her papers back did you feel that they were thoroughly marked and read?


They were definitely marked and read (several of them came back with comments in various handwriting so she definitely knew more than one person was reading. There were 2 profs (it was an odd co-taught class) but I also think there were grad students involved. Tons of comments & one of the profs had huge handwriting so it would be scrawled in giant letters all over. 

Looking back, now I understand exactly where they were looking and what they were looking for. I'm not kidding when I say they were looking at first & last sentences of the paragraphs. She did have comments on them which were of the "what? this doesn't follow?" and she'd be rolling her eyes because literally the next sentence explained/expanded on how these ideas are related/why they follow etc. 

 

Well, as far as we can tell, this professor does not give A's.  My dd will keep asking though.  Many of the students share what they receive on their papers, so she does know that she's doing well and the professor's comments about her are excellent.  I simply think that she's a VERY hard marker.  My dd's friend got an "OUTSTANDING" paper back yesterday with almost no corrections and she received 80%.  I think that's the professor's idea of an A.  

I think at your school 80 is an A-  (unless the prof has their own marking scheme)

 At dd's school you need 85 for an A- 

 

Got it.  This is making more sense now.  It's wonderful that you're close by because it's helpful to have the context.

 

Oh wow, thank you for that information.  I knew the grade percentages were different in the U.S., compared to Canada, but I thought that they were consistent within Canada.  So how does the grade point average work then?  Is it then structured in a way that it will work out the same compared to other universities or does it work out differently?  I'm a little confused.  

[hornblower]

 

 

Got it.  This is making more sense now.  It's wonderful that you're close by because it's helpful to have the context.

 

Oh wow, thank you for that information.  I knew the grade percentages were different in the U.S., compared to Canada, but I thought that they were consistent within Canada.  So how does the grade point average work then?  Is it then structured in a way that it will work out the same compared to other universities or does it work out differently?  I'm a little confused.  

 

 

They're not consistent here at all. Even transferring from SFU to UBC (or applying to law  or medicine etc) bites you because SFU does the A- at 85% but UBC does  A- at 80% ( & UBC doesn't do GPA at all; they just use percentages & they say class I, class II or pass for the final degree) 

 

It's a pita but supposedly they're all familiar with each others' grading & there are some conversion apps that I've seen the academic advisors use. 

[Bootsie]

.  

 

But honestly, can you imagine the shock of the students?  Here they've been getting in the 90s and they are all of a sudden bombing.  They must wonder what's hit them and I'm sure it's very discouraging.  Which is why I think the first year profs should give a little more help to these kids.  They have an entrance writing course which everyone has to take unless you test out, but even with that the students still aren't writing well.

 

As a college professor, I am interested in knowing what you think the profs could do to give more help.  I see a number of instances in which students are used to making A's but who are not performing at a college level.  I know it is a shock to them when they do not receive the A they are used to.

[Bootsie]

 

 

When your daughter goes to talk to the professor, one thing she might ask is whether the professor has any samples of old "A" papers that she might read.  I keep copies of the very best student work to make available to future students as examples. (I always ask the writers' permission, of course.)  IME, it is not uncommon for freshman students to wildly underestimate what the very top of the class looks like.  

 

Also, I would suggest that your daughter ask about what were the major determining factors for her grade.  Were the problems mainly content, structure and organization, or mechanics?  Or, was it a combination of all of those. 

 

Also, knowing something about the professor's approach to grading would be helpful.  Does she subtract a set number of points for particular errors (so many points for a misspelled word, comma splice, etc.)?  Or, is a more holistic scale used?  This would look something like a "C" paper shows a basic understanding of the material and is able to communicate it without too many distracting grammatical errors; A "B" paper shows an in-depth understanding of the material and can use the language of the discipline appropriately...

 

As a professor I might make comments on a student's paper that do not necessarily associate with a lower grade on the paper.  This will often occur with opinion based statements.  I might challenge the student to think of things from another angle but not lower the student's grade.  Also, I might see errors but not mark all of the them.  For example, if I see three comma splices in the first three paragraphs, I might mark those and then write a note that the student needs to be careful regarding comma splices.  It often does not do any good to "edit" the paper and correct each of those problems.  So, even though I may have marked it only three times doesn't mean it only occurred three times.  (DH tells his students these types of errors are like roaches; if he notices three when he is grading a paper, there are probably more lurking there.)  Sometimes comments are placed on a paper to challenge the student and help the student improve rather than to justify a grade.

[regentrude]

.  Which is why I think the first year profs should give a little more help to these kids.  They have an entrance writing course which everyone has to take unless you test out, but even with that the students still aren't writing well.

 

Does this college not have a writing center? Many colleges do. they are staffed with trained writing tutors and students can make an appointment to get help with their papers.

Some profs require students to go - but i don't think they should have to.

What else should the profs do in your opinion?

[Laura Corin]

As a college professor, I am interested in knowing what you think the profs could do to give more help.  I see a number of instances in which students are used to making A's but who are not performing at a college level.  I know it is a shock to them when they do not receive the A they are used to.

 

One of the subjects I studied at university was drama.  We had all studied plays at school, but had largely written about them as if they had been literature, not play scripts.  We all got terrible marks when we started to study drama at university, because we had to tear up all our previous writing habits and see plays from a completely new viewpoint.  We were taught how to do it, but changing habits is not easy, so it took us a while to get it right.

[Cleopatra]

As a college professor, I am interested in knowing what you think the profs could do to give more help.  I see a number of instances in which students are used to making A's but who are not performing at a college level.  I know it is a shock to them when they do not receive the A they are used to.

 

Honestly, I think the professors that I've seen are doing a great job.  In a school model that is working well, they wouldn't have to do anything extra.  But sadly, our public school system is not great and there are huge numbers of students coming into university who can't write.  There is the Writing 100 course that all students entering are supposed to take, but that just seems to give the students the basics because they come into it with little background.  There is a writing centre for help, but the feedback from the students is that they are not very helpful, or in any case, their papers don't seem to be improving (or not very quickly) with the help they're getting there.  There does seem to be a disconnect between the some students and some professors ...... from speaking to students they seem to feel there is quite a bit expected of them but little guidance ...... the professors on the other hand are pushing the students to challenge and improve their abilities, which is not unreasonable.  However there doesn't seem to be a middle meeting ground.  I'd have to think about it a little more (and probably ask a few more questions) to try to determine why.

 

I'm sure that university is quite a shock to the public school kids who enter it.  While our public school system is woeful, our university system is excellent (still --- crossing fingers) and the expectations are high compared to public school.  I know that by talking to the writing centre helper (our boarder), students, and by taking first year classes as an adult, I've seen some of the stresses many students are under.  It's not the job of each professor to try to fix the problem, but it would be helpful if they realize it and give some extra support and understanding to some of the first-yearers.  Yes, certainly there are lazy students, but there are a number of students working very hard and feeling like they're failing simply because they haven't originally been given the tools to succeed and now feel out of their depth.  My dd's professor is very academic and also her personality is very laconic.  She is a very nice lady.  She has amazing knowledge about her subject and can talk about it in class, but when you speak with her she doesn't say much.  It's just her personality.  I could see her doing very well in a third or fourth year class, but with the students who feel a bit lost, it's harder for them to connect and feel supported. Fortunately my dd is not in that position as her writing instruction has been very good, but I've edited some papers for this essay for other students, have heard others talking, and this is what I've gleaned.  None of this is criticism, just observations.  

 

 

Also, I would suggest that your daughter ask about what were the major determining factors for her grade.  Were the problems mainly content, structure and organization, or mechanics?  Or, was it a combination of all of those. 

 

Also, knowing something about the professor's approach to grading would be helpful.  Does she subtract a set number of points for particular errors (so many points for a misspelled word, comma splice, etc.)?  Or, is a more holistic scale used?  This would look something like a "C" paper shows a basic understanding of the material and is able to communicate it without too many distracting grammatical errors; A "B" paper shows an in-depth understanding of the material and can use the language of the discipline appropriately...

 

As a professor I might make comments on a student's paper that do not necessarily associate with a lower grade on the paper.  This will often occur with opinion based statements.  I might challenge the student to think of things from another angle but not lower the student's grade.  Also, I might see errors but not mark all of the them.  For example, if I see three comma splices in the first three paragraphs, I might mark those and then write a note that the student needs to be careful regarding comma splices.  It often does not do any good to "edit" the paper and correct each of those problems.  So, even though I may have marked it only three times doesn't mean it only occurred three times.  (DH tells his students these types of errors are like roaches; if he notices three when he is grading a paper, there are probably more lurking there.)  Sometimes comments are placed on a paper to challenge the student and help the student improve rather than to justify a grade.

 

Thank you for this explanation; the last paragraph especially is very helpful.  And I think you're right in that my dd should perhaps get more guidance as to grades.  For her the main concern is that the professor read and understood the paper and to a lesser degree she is concerned about her mark not moving with her improvement, in that she just doesn't understand.  But she should try to figure out the ins-and-outs of the marking structure, so I'll let her know.

 

 

Does this college not have a writing center? Many colleges do. they are staffed with trained writing tutors and students can make an appointment to get help with their papers.

Some profs require students to go - but i don't think they should have to.

What else should the profs do in your opinion?

 

Yes, they have a writing centre but, as I mentioned above, the students at least don't find it that helpful.  I edited a paper from my dd's class that had been through the writing centre and there were a number of issues that they didn't mention to the student.  Our boarder who worked there was doing her master's degree but she wasn't "trained" per se.  Otherwise, I don't know who they have looking over the papers so I'm unfamiliar with how it's generally set up.  I do know that my dd received MUCH more detailed feedback from the teacher/editors, so I was happy that was part of the paper requirements.

 

I'm not sure if I understand your question.  Do you mean generally with students (which I somewhat answered above) or specifically in my dd's case?  

Edited April 13, 2016 by Cleopatra

[Corraleno]

 Here's a sample of the type of structure some profs are looking for. When they hand out stuff like this, it's not a suggestion. They want it exactly like this. 

 

That's really interesting in light of all the discussions on this board about whether it's important for homeschoolers to learn the standard "5 paragraph essay" format (like the one outlined in your example) that public schools teach. The main argument against it seems to be that no one actually writes like that in college, because professors don't want to see such awkward, formulaic writing!

 

I always thought that formula was only really useful for standardized testing and other fairly artificial writing contexts, because (IMHO) it seems to produce stilted writing that is light on content and heavy on "packaging" and filler. But now I'm wondering if this is a common thing in US colleges as well, and if DS is likely to run into this.  :glare:

[Laura Corin]

 Here's a sample of the type of structure some profs are looking for. When they hand out stuff like this, it's not a suggestion. They want it exactly like this. 

 

That's interesting.  That's precisely what is required for GCSE (high school exam) essay writing in England.  I drilled Calvin in it when I put him through some GCSEs at home.  

 

I think that university essay writing is usually more fluid, but in order to get to university, students will have had to pass exams using that structure.

[MerryAtHope]

As a college professor, I am interested in knowing what you think the profs could do to give more help.  I see a number of instances in which students are used to making A's but who are not performing at a college level.  I know it is a shock to them when they do not receive the A they are used to.

 

My son has an excellent writing instructor--I've been very impressed with her work. (This is his second semester with her, as 2 writing courses are required). The things I've observed:

 

Her syllabus is detailed. The students know exactly what is expected and when and how much of their grade each assignment is worth.

 

Her rubrics are detailed and helpful. When she grades, she shows the point value she assigned for each category. She underlines statements that describe the level of the student's work and also puts notes in the margin--it's never a guessing game to know why she gave the paper the grade that she did. 

She teaches what she expects--she shares examples of writing to show what's excellent, and also shares examples of writing that didn't work, and they discuss why for each.

 

In the first semester, she gave out a proofreading sheet, and reviewed common grammatical errors. She had the students rework their grammatical errors (up to 20 of them per paper) and turn that in as well. It's a lot of work for the student who really struggles with grammar, but an incredibly helpful process to go through.

 

She required the students to rewrite the type of paper that received the lowest grade in the semester, so that students who had worked hard and grown in their abilities could try for a better grade (they didn't rewrite the same paper--just the same type, new topic--so it was a new paper in that way.)

 

This semester is mainly a research (argumentation) paper, and she has the students set up to succeed if they try at all. She had a deadline for them to choose their thesis (which had to be approved by her--with abundant instruction and feedback on how to create a clear thesis), and a deadline for the first draft which was about 5 pages. She gave explicit feedback on how to keep going, where they needed to strengthen their arguments, when there wasn't enough opposition represented, what things needed more support, and so on. Then she had them do a bunch (11 or 13) annotated bibliographies on sources, and gave specific requirements of what those sources could be (so many on the opposition, so many from scholarly journals, etc...) They then turned in a longer version of their paper (7-8 pages) for a closer examination of how well they were presenting their arguments. After that, they added another page and did peer review groups. She had 3 pages of questions regarding the things the students were to look for and evaluate in their group's papers (groups of 3, so each student reviewed 2 papers). These were thorough! My son felt he got helpful feedback from his group (something I don't hear of often when I hear about peer-reviewing). They did a final content rewrite (10 pages now), and will be doing an edit for grammar etc... and then turn in the final draft. After that they'll be doing presentations and a final exam. 

 

Throughout her syllabus she emphasizes coming to talk with her, coming for help, that she's trying to help them succeed etc... Her classes are tough, and she's a tough grader, but I never feel that she's unfairly so--it's always easy to see why she gave the grade she did from her rubrics, and my son has to work incredibly hard in this class (writing doesn't come easy for him). She does everything possible to help students succeed, but makes them work hard for it at the same time. It still hurts to get lower grades, but she is helping those students to be stronger and more effective writers if they are willing to put in the work.

 

I wish every class had a syllabus as clear as hers! Students might not always *like* the expectations, but there is no guess-work! After both of my students are done with English (assuming my youngest ends up taking her), I plan to write her a letter--or maybe even visit her office hours. 

[Pen]

Pen, this might be partly a regional thing. (Cleo and I are in the same part of Canada, in a province with an extremely smooth transfer system which means most courses, esp 1st and 2nd yr are extremely similar in content and expectation)

 

When my dd was having probs with her Engl course, we were stunned. By then she had written papers for several classes, incl 2nd year anthropology. She had never got lower than an A or A+. She knows how to write, and always had someone read her paper before handing it in.

 

As I mentioned above, the English departments hammer you way down. Her first assignment, mercifully not worth much, was marked as a C/C-

 

I can probably dig out some samples for you if you also want (by pm).

 

For dd, she had to forget how to write and a) contort herself into a very strict structure and b) parrot back the prof's ideas. She got heavily marked down on veering from an interpretation which was discussed in class. Dd offered an alternative, supported it with a close reading and analysis but it wasn't well received. She's a stubborn chickie but in the end, also pragmatic. She needed a certain mark for her gpa and admission to a certain program and once she realized this is how it is, she just did what was needed and consoled herself with the horrible feedback she planned to leave for the course :D She also was sure she had enough for grade appeal if necessary (and it wasn't in the end) and that fire kept her going lol.

 

It was extremely stressful for her and the rest of us were treated to an earful as she ranted about this course at length. Her younger brother is a beneficiary of all this because I now know exactly how to prep him, and it's not really what is in the curricula I have.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

Yes. I'd be interested in PM of these too.  I think I may need to clear some PM  space, so maybe wait until at least tomorrow.

 

This is reminding me that when I was in college, I tended to get far better grades from full professors. When I got a bad grade at one point on a paper on Chaucer from a young new guy who'd been at some far less good school, I asked if he could show me what he considered an "A" paper, and was really shocked/surprised by it. To me what he considered an "A" would have deserved a "C" and is what I would have expected from a high school freshman, maybe even a middle schooler.  Basically it looked like a very basic regurgitation of Cliff Notes and his own favorite things to say during lectures. But once I understood what he wanted, I could get A's from him as well--and much more easily too. No original thought or ideas or anything I would consider well written was expected or even wanted by him.  I wonder if there may be a bit of that in what you both are experiencing in your English departments.

[Cleopatra]

Update:

 

Okay, my dd went in to see the professor today to get her feedback.  Here's what she said:

 

My dd is way above the class average and her writing is absolutely excellent.  If she doesn't become an English major, the professor is going to hunt her down.  She said her paper was like a rough draft of something publishable.  Her style is excellent, her ideas are very good and she communicates them well.  If she can produce something like that in first year English, the professor can't wait to see what she's going to produce a couple of years down the road.

 

She said she wanted to give her an A- or B+ but she didn't want her walking away thinking that she could just get away with writing at that level for those types of marks; she wanted to push her to do better.  The only thing she said she really needed to work on, other than simply developing, was her punctuation (comma splices).  Apparently a B- in first year English is an excellent grade, and my dd got a B on her paper.

 

I must say, I'm a little bemused at the feedback.  I thought the expectations for students would change each year, gradually becoming higher, but it's almost as if the expectations encompass all the four years and it's only later on that you can get high marks.  However, I can appreciate the professor's philosophy and think that it will serve my dd well.  She did say that she was hoping my dd would come and talk to her, so she could tell her what she told her today.

 

So there is a little extra information with regard to university expectations and grades.  It really seems so subjective, so I think my dd has learned how important it is to go to your professor to get some verbal feedback; what is being communicated by papers and classroom time does not necessarily communicate the opinions of the professor and talking to them is very beneficial.

 

As for the mistaken comment, she said it wasn't a mistake.  She did not want my dd to bring in the term anti-hero at all; Bilbo is a biblical hero.  When I first read my dd's rough draft, I was thinking anti-hero, not realizing what the term meant, and as it is a hero-type, I don't think it at all unreasonable, that my dd brought it in for comparison; she was very clear with her presentation and argument.  So on this point, I completely disagree with the professor, but at this point, that's really neither here nor there.

 

Thanks to those of you who have given your input and help with this topic.  My dd feels like this has been a good experience and is looking forward to her classes next year!

 

 

Edited April 19, 2016 by Cleopatra

[chiguirre]

They think people are going to major in a field where the best grade they'll get for excellent work is a B-. Umm, yeah, that's not very likely. That kind of GPA hurts your job and grad school prospects too much.

 

 

[hornblower]

They think people are going to major in a field where the best grade they'll get for excellent work is a B-. Umm, yeah, that's not very likely. That kind of GPA hurts your job and grad school prospects too much.

 

yup. It's a serious issue here. This is they type of info in the coursepacks in dd's English department. They think if you're in the Bs you should be thrilled. 

 

"only truly excellent and error-free work will receive grades in the A range, and only strong work will receive Bs. Generally speaking, assignments that just meet the stated requirements of an assignment will achieve grades in the range of C, indicating that the assignment is satisfactory. An A+ is reserved only for flawless work, and an A for truly exceptional with very few minor errors. Please consider a C+ a grade indicating average competency in the course material."

 

The grade distribution in their English is very low with overall lower GPAs handed out than in any other department. I really can't think of any reason why it should be this way other than being deliberately stingy with grades. 

 

[maize]

That is how grades work in some European systems--perfect scores in something involving writing are virtually unheard of (perfect scores are possible in, say, most math classes, as there is obviously an upper limit to achievement.)

 

The thinking is that in written work there really is no such thing as perfection--improvement is always possible. There is a saying in French high schools (where assignments are traditionally graded out of twenty) that 20 is for God, 19 is for the teacher, 18 is for the best student (some say 18 is for the teacher's pet and 17 for the best student). 18s were very rare, a 16 was an excellent grade.

Edited April 20, 2016 by maize

[8filltheheart]

Sounds like she got wonderful feedback. So glad that she went and talked to her and that it was a positive experience!

[Laura Corin]

That is how grades work in some European systems--perfect scores in something involving writing are virtually unheard of (perfect scores are possible in, say, most math classes, as there is obviously an upper limit to achievement.)

 

The thinking is that in written work there really is no such thing as perfection--improvement is always possible. There is a saying in French high schools (where assignments are traditionally graded out of twenty) that 20 is for God, 19 is for the teacher, 18 is for the best student (some say 18 is for the teacher's pet and 17 for the best student). 18s were very rare, a 16 was an excellent grade.

 

Yes. In high school exams in the UK, 80% is usually an A*.  At the university where I work, a pass is below 50% and any mark over 80% is unusual.  

[Cleopatra]

yup. It's a serious issue here. This is they type of info in the coursepacks in dd's English department. They think if you're in the Bs you should be thrilled. 

 

"only truly excellent and error-free work will receive grades in the A range, and only strong work will receive Bs. Generally speaking, assignments that just meet the stated requirements of an assignment will achieve grades in the range of C, indicating that the assignment is satisfactory. An A+ is reserved only for flawless work, and an A for truly exceptional with very few minor errors. Please consider a C+ a grade indicating average competency in the course material."

 

The grade distribution in their English is very low with overall lower GPAs handed out than in any other department. I really can't think of any reason why it should be this way other than being deliberately stingy with grades. 

 

 

The issue seems to be that their grading philosophies are not only inconsistent between departments, but also between schools.  I spoke with a student yesterday in my dd's class ....... she was getting 89% in English at U.B.C. but she's getting a C or C+ in this class.  I don't have a problem if they set the bar at a certain point for everyone, but it seems to be all over the map.  It's just strange .......

 

 

Sounds like she got wonderful feedback. So glad that she went and talked to her and that it was a positive experience!

 

Yes, it was a very good conversation.  The philosophy of grading is curious though, but at least she knows from now on.

 

 

Yes. In high school exams in the UK, 80% is usually an A*.  At the university where I work, a pass is below 50% and any mark over 80% is unusual.  

 

 

While this seems possible at university level, and particularly this university, it is not that way in high school here.  In HS, students regularly get As for sub-standard work, depending on the teacher.  That's partly why they are so shocked when they get to uni.

[Laura Corin]

 

While this seems possible at university level, and particularly this university, it is not that way in high school here. In HS, students regularly get As for sub-standard work, depending on the teacher. That's partly why they are so shocked when they get to uni.

All high school grades are based on national exams. There may be grade inflation over time, but it's country wide.