Intro, questions about working memory, and looking for writing/ LA for dysgraphia

[Cake and Pi]

It was suggested that I jump in over here, so I wanted to say hi!

 

So, my intro:

 

I have a 2e 8yo 2nd grader diagnosed with dysgraphia, SPD, and a fine motor delay.  He has (relatively) low working memory and processing speed.  Both are right around absolute average, give or take 2-3 pts, which I know is not technically "low" but the psych said to him it feels like they are very low because they are 40ish points below his cognitive abilities (I guess this is a fairly significant difference?).  His academic testing found him writing at a beginning 1st grade level while reading and reading comprehension were grade 9 and 8, respectively.  He's had a little OT, but we've seen the most drastic improvements with ABA, which we're no longer doing but are still in contact with the therapist.

 

I also have a 2.5yo who is globally delayed with SPD and low tone, so I suspect I was destined to become very familiar with you all in the coming years no matter what.  We have no explanation for his delays, poor growth, and other random "incidental" diagnoses, despite being followed by several specialists.  We no idea what the future holds, and it's kind of terrifying.  I'm hopeful that he will catch up, but fulling expecting LDs when he hits school age.

 

Questions:

 

Can someone explain to me how working memory actually works?  Are there any ways to improve it?  I was under the impression that working memory was just short term memory?  Is that not right?  DS#1 is so averse to writing that he does almost all of his (increasingly complex) math in his head.  HOW is it possible that he can do multi-step problems, long division, etc in his head without high working memory?

 

I'm also looking for writing and/or LA options for the coming fall when DS#1 will be beginning his 3rd grade year.  This is the first year that I did anything other than the basics (reading, math, fine motor/ handwriting).  I picked WWE and it was very very not-easy!  For now we are just doing the readings and narrations and very simplified copy work, but I'm not sure if this is something we should continue for next year.

 

I would love to know what others have used successfully for a child with dysgraphia.

[kbutton]

I am totally curious about what gains ABA got you with those diagnoses.

 

Typing, typing, typing and scribe for math. I have two kids with dysgraphia (and other stuff). Both are 2e. Get proficient and then let them use it for work.

 

Have you had vision checked by a COVD? You want to rule out ocular motor issues anytime you have issues with writing and/or OT stuff. Also, I would check into retained primitive reflexes. A combination of those two things are substantially behind one of my dysgraphic boy's issues, and somewhat behind the other's dysgraphia. Our vision therapy program worked on retained reflexes, and it was breath-taking how much improved.

Your understanding of working memory seems to be pretty correct. Mental math can be hard with low working memory, but it might still be easier than trying to think about math and writing at the same time. Kids with good number sense can often do great mental math in spite of lower working memory. As the load/level/complexity increases, or if you asked him to do more mental manipulation of information in very non-preferred area, you might see working memory tank or see oppositional or anxious behavior around those things. My older son can do some seriously impressive mental math, and he doesn't even know all his math facts yet (he's getting close). It takes a lot out of him, and now that he is entering beginning algebra types of things where he needs to write steps down, he's super, super slow at getting it done. If I scribe for him, he flies through the material. It's pretty stunning how different it is.

 

Working memory improves through use. I also have noted that my kids sometimes needs explicit skills training in how to break tasks up into sensible and efficient parts. Mine both have low working memory and processing, and I've noticed that especially when executive function deficits are present, they don't realize how long some things take or that they could do something an easier way. Even things like decoding a puzzle on the back of a cereal box can be improved, know what I mean? If a puzzle has a key, they can go put all instances of the same letter in place, go back to the key, and then do it for the next letter. My kids NEVER think of this, which baffles my brain. Anyway, some of it is about skills, some about using it and developing it, and some is motor based. The newer tests of processing tend to take out some of the motor component (I think WISC V is designed to be less dependent on motor problems for processing). 

 

 

[Cake and Pi]

I am totally curious about what gains ABA got you with those diagnoses.

 

Typing, typing, typing and scribe for math. I have two kids with dysgraphia (and other stuff). Both are 2e. Get proficient and then let them use it for work.

 

Have you had vision checked by a COVD? You want to rule out ocular motor issues anytime you have issues with writing and/or OT stuff. Also, I would check into retained primitive reflexes. A combination of those two things are substantially behind one of my dysgraphic boy's issues, and somewhat behind the other's dysgraphia. Our vision therapy program worked on retained reflexes, and it was breath-taking how much improved.

Your understanding of working memory seems to be pretty correct. Mental math can be hard with low working memory, but it might still be easier than trying to think about math and writing at the same time. Kids with good number sense can often do great mental math in spite of lower working memory. As the load/level/complexity increases, or if you asked him to do more mental manipulation of information in very non-preferred area, you might see working memory tank or see oppositional or anxious behavior around those things. My older son can do some seriously impressive mental math, and he doesn't even know all his math facts yet (he's getting close). It takes a lot out of him, and now that he is entering beginning algebra types of things where he needs to write steps down, he's super, super slow at getting it done. If I scribe for him, he flies through the material. It's pretty stunning how different it is.

 

Working memory improves through use. I also have noted that my kids sometimes needs explicit skills training in how to break tasks up into sensible and efficient parts. Mine both have low working memory and processing, and I've noticed that especially when executive function deficits are present, they don't realize how long some things take or that they could do something an easier way. Even things like decoding a puzzle on the back of a cereal box can be improved, know what I mean? If a puzzle has a key, they can go put all instances of the same letter in place, go back to the key, and then do it for the next letter. My kids NEVER think of this, which baffles my brain. Anyway, some of it is about skills, some about using it and developing it, and some is motor based. The newer tests of processing tend to take out some of the motor component (I think WISC V is designed to be less dependent on motor problems for processing). 

 

ABA was recommended to us because DS#1 had developed some seriously disruptive and life-limiting behaviors.  As explained to me, it all (or mostly?) started because of his SPD, but then got worse or continued even past when it was needed because of him developing habits and because of his fear and anticipation of sensory related things.  Since we had learned how to mostly manage his sensory needs and were doing "OT at home" (using instructions given from the few OT visits we paid for), things should have gotten better, but they didn't really until our ABA therapist stepped in.  At 3-4yo, he was doing things like sticking his head down at the playground with his butt up in the air, pushing his head around in the gravel for 15-20 minutes at a time, totally ignoring all the people around him.  He would go 1-2 months at a time without bathing because I couldn't make myself make him take one more often than that (you'd think I was trying to kill him, not clean him).  He would bite himself, run into walls/objects/people repeatedly and on purpose, take HOURS to fall asleep at night, tie/wrap things around his head, put 4+ pairs of socks on his feet and then a pair or two on his hands, scream for 45-90 minutes at a time, hurt children who tried to play with him, couldn't be left alone for even a moment with younger brothers, etc etc etc.  So, for example of some of the stuff the ABA did, DS#1 would FREAK out of a drop of water go on his clothes and take everything off, even undergarments.  The ABA had me do things like turn his shirt around backwards so that he couldn't see the water.  She did a lot of OT-like stuff too, suggesting a weighted blanket and that I buy headbands and hooded shirts for him.  She focused on techniques to help him help himself, especially the stuff that came from anxiousness stemming from sensory-related things, if that makes any sense.  

 

We had a vision check with a pediatric ophthalmologist about 2 years ago.  Is a COVD different?  I will definitely look into retained reflexes.  DS#4 has some of those, but I didn't think to ask about the same in DS#1.  

 

Since you let your kids type for writing work, do you still have them practice writing by hand?  What do your dysgraphic kids use for a writing curriculum, if anything?

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going to ask a question, and it has nothing to do with what you seem to be asking.  In all the testing you've had done, did they do any language testing?  Like an ABLLS or VBMAPP or the CELF or CASL or something...  Because I think the elephant in the room in a scenario like that is language problems that are maybe covered up by his gifted strengths but are nevertheless there, making his writing even harder.

 

Now back to whatever you were originally asking!  :)

[Cake and Pi]

Ok, I'm going to ask a question, and it has nothing to do with what you seem to be asking.  In all the testing you've had done, did they do any language testing?  Like an ABLLS or VBMAPP or the CELF or CASL or something...  Because I think the elephant in the room in a scenario like that is language problems that are maybe covered up by his gifted strengths but are nevertheless there, making his writing even harder.

 

Now back to whatever you were originally asking!   :)

 

I honestly have no idea!  I know they did the WISC V and "academic testing" that went far beyond what they do at our umbrella school (which is the NWEA MAPs test).  I will look for that when we sometime, eventually, hopefully soon get the full report.  What kind of language problems do you mean?  

[PeterPan]

Well my ds had some major discrepancies between his single sentence comprehension and his other scores.  Actually he had 3 sections on the CELF that were almost 2 standard deviations below his high scores.  And there's this program Teach Me Language that I got when Lecka mentioned it.  It is meant to fill in language holes that kids with various disorders tend to have.  So it's not so much as a curriculum but to hit the glitches that are holding back the language arts.  They even have a section on math, because of course you need language for math!

 

We just did some fresh testing on my ds, this time the CASL, and this time his single sentence comprehension is up (yay!!! we've been working on it!!), but what we found was that in the "sentence combining" section he was really formulaic.  ALL his answers were formed the same way.  It was enough to get him an average score, but it certainly isn't where you expect language development for a gifted dc.  So even there, even with scores others could ignore, we could read into it what we need to work on next.  You can imagine, when all his sentences are the same simple patterns, his writing reflects that.  But it's a language problem, not a writing curriculum probably even though some people approach it with writing curricula.

 

So it was just something to look at.  Also, this is just me, but given the amount of challenges you've had so far, I think you're going to have more success doing writing within his passions/obsessions.  Is there anything you can work with there?  Think outside the box on curriculum.  Like you could buy a curriculum but use it for *yourself* to give yourself a framework.  Then choose better selections or topics for the assignments, making them blend with his interests.  

[kbutton]

Oh, wow! I am so glad ABA could be brought in for that. I am kind of learning about how wide-ranging ABA can be, and it's awesome stuff. 

 

Yes, a COVD is different. They are going to look at how the eyes work together and work with the brain.

 

Well, my older kid started in a private school and learned ball and stick lettering before moving on to cursive. I retrained him to write in a print style that let him make most letters with one continuous stroke. I think if he had learned that earlier, it would've helped, though he probably also would've done well doing cursive from the get-go. For him, it's not motor-based. It started as not being automatic, and it's smoothed out but been difficult to connect his thinking and writing together. He does a lot of random stuff while writing even though you can read it pretty well. He'll capitalize at random because particular letters just come out easier in capitals. He used to spell the same word three or four different wrong ways on the same page...it's just not connected in his brain.

 

My younger one learned Italic printing, and I taught him New American Cursive by making custom worksheets that broke it down into very small bits. I tried to have it overlap with phonics. We emphasized the stroke patterns and didn't worry about legibility for a long time. We wrote on white boards, in the air, etc. He had major trouble with directionality, and it seemed to be worse when he watched himself, so we actually did white board and air writing with his eyes closed. He learned to make an 8 with his eyes closed before he learned to make it with eyes open. If he opened his eyes, he drew a kidney bean every time. Then we moved on to making an x on paper, and he would write the 8 on top of the x to keep himself on track. It took a year a half, lol! Vision therapy worked on the Moro reflex, and I think it also worked on ATNR and STNR as well. Writing went from laborious to tolerable--we went from tears and drama to no big deal to do small amounts of handwriting. 

 

Some kids have so much trouble that writing by hand is not worth it for school. We just keep writing as it's own separate task if we can and try to minimize it as necessary. I do some scribing, and they do some typing.

[kbutton]

Oh, and my DH and others in his family seem to have some level of dysgraphia. My DH says that writing by hand still feels like artwork and drawing, not like something you do without thinking. He used dictation software at work and LOVES it.

[Pen]

for physical act of writing: typing    (my ds can also print legibly, but it is very slow going)

 

for composition the best for my particular dysgraphic ds has been the Bravewriter approach. Can be as "Jot it Down" where he scribes to you, and you help with the physical writing as well as improving grammar and other technical aspects at the rewrite stages. He also might find a dictation program helpful at some point, but at that age, computers could not understand my child's speech

[camino]

Wow... you all have touched on so many of our struggles. My son is in fourth grade, advanced in math and reading, also severely dysgraphic and severely ADHD (I think working memory was avg, but with large discrepancy, and processing speed low). His mental math skills are impressive and I encourage them to some extent, but I also, for years, have insisted that he write some of the work down precisely because I feared that, once things got more complicated, it would all fall apart. Well, it is starting to happen.

 

We are in Singapore 5 and he is starting to make the mistakes that I feared all along! Sometimes they are careless, like skipping the final, real question of a multi-step word problem. Other times he messes up because he forgets the (correctly computed) answer to the first part of a problem and so the next parts are all wrong, even though his understanding and process are solid. And yet, often enough, when he writes all the steps down (he would only do this when forced--never voluntarily!), he actually has a GREATER tendency to make mistakes. I could give a hundred examples but, for example, the other day he actually forgot how to set up a long division problem... something he mastered over a year ago and thus could not go on in the problem. The act of writing absolutely disrupts his flow of thinking. As one of the PPs said, all of these issues disappears if I scribe. If I sit there, and act as a pencil, give zero feedback, he can do anything--and very easily. So, of course we scribe most of the time but I fear that I am over supporting him and that he will never be independent. I am really at a loss for what to do. 

 

To address your questions more specifically, I feel like on the one hand, the mental math capacity can be there, even with these issues, It is not a problem for us at all. I mean, maybe he is a little slower than kids with his same math abilities, but not in a way that I even notice. On the other hand, the more complex questions are getting, the more apparent his issues are becoming. I wish I had an answer. I will be following eagerly. I feel like there must an app out there to solve all of our problems but I haven't found it.

 

As far as writing in Language Arts and other disciplines goes, we have finally pretty much given up on handwriting. We did two full years of private OT, years of dedicated regular practice at home, years of small motor and hand strengthening games and exercises... and his writing has actually gotten progressively worse. This fact has generally shocked teachers and OTs but some people very knowledgeable in dysgraphia have confirmed that it makes sense that as his thinking has progressed, he has even less attention and energy to give to handwriting. We made some progress with cursive and he was proud of himself but it is too slow to ever be practical. So as of January or so, we do absolutely everything on the computer. Sometimes he narrates and I scribe, sometimes he types on his own, sometimes he uses dictation software and then edits it. We are definitely making progress and I am happy about where we are. I am working towards independence and we are not there yet. For example, I still have to help him with dictation software, but I think we will get there.

 

For writing programs, we did Writing with Ease in third grade and are doing IEW this year. Writing with Ease was great because it broke down the different tasks of writing. Towards the end of the year, though, he really wanted a change so I picked IEW. He doesn't like IEW but he doesn't hate it, so not bad! I think that it is an excellent program for a kid like him, very structured and organized and step-by-step. We alternate the formal writing program with more fun writing. I give him prompts in his areas of high interest, like "Who would win a battle between Thor and Hulk? Explain your logic." Or, I had him write a letter to his favorite soccer player and another one to the author of his favorite Minecraft books. Things like that. At least now he no longer thinks that he hates writing... as long as no pencil is involved.

 

It is tough to gauge exactly where my son is writing-wise and I have to remind myself to be patient. His vocabulary and reasoning, and even style, are very advanced when I scribe, or when we use dictation, and probably ok/grade level when he types on his own. So, again, the independence part isn't there yet. More importantly, though, I am seeing progress and that is a relief. 

 

Good luck! I will keep following and maybe we can trade ideas.