Is Ms. now considered an abbreviation for Miss?

[Storygirl]

My fourth graders brought home a language arts paper practicing abbreviations, and they were meant to use Ms. as an abbreviation for Miss.

 

I know that is technically incorrect. "Miss" designates an unmarried woman; "Ms." is an honorific for any woman and does not specify marital status. However, I'm wondering if the acceptable usage and understanding of these terms have changed over the years since I learned them.

 

I want to email the teacher to explain the accurate use of these words, but I thought I'd check to see if my understanding and usage is out of date. (My online research suggests I am correct.)

[poppy]

Miss is pretty much phased out, I believe. I would never use it to address and adult. But you're correct, Miss and Ms. are not synonyms.

[gardenmom5]

I remember when ms. came into use. It's always been an alternative to miss.

 

Eta. It came about because Many unmarried women didn't want to use miss.

Edited April 7, 2016 by gardenmom5

[kitten18]

There are many places where Miss is still used frequently. Miss + first name.

 

 

I would NOT email the teacher and point out the mistake.

[Guest]

I never use Miss unless I'm talking to someone who is extremely unlikely to be married; i.e., a 14-year-old young woman. I use Ms. in almost all situations because one cannot assume a person's marital status really ever anymore, and also because I think it's an antiquated and not terribly attractive notion to delineate females by their marital status while men are always Mr.

[Bluegoat]

Miss seems to be used less often, I mostly see it as an option to choose on forms, or for young girls.  Ms seems to be normative now.

 

It's weird though that it hasn't also supplanted Mrs to the same degree - if it replaced both, it would really be neutral.  But since a lot of people still use Mrs, it seems less so.

 

My impression is that Miss is almost considered disrespectful for a grown women, as if it is infantilizing. 

[Farrar]

I remember when ms. came into use. It's always been an alternative to miss.

 

Eta. It came about because Many unmarried women didn't want to use miss.

 

That's not true. It came about because both married and unmarried women particularly in the feminist movement wanted a title that didn't define them by marriage.

 

It's not an abbreviation for Miss. That's just incorrect. I have noticed that it has become more common. It may be that more unmarried women are using it. However, I'm married and I certainly use it.

[Carol in Cal.]

Ms. is a substitute for both Miss and Mrs.  

[bettyandbob]

I know many women, married and unmarried, who use Ms.

 

Marital status of men is not broadcast by title. I've understood Ms. to be the alternative equivalent to Mr. in that way.

[kitten18]

Ms. is a substitute for both Miss and Mrs.

It's a substitute for Miss or Mistress but not an abbreviation for them.

[Storygirl]

It's a substitute for Miss or Mistress but not an abbreviation for them.

 

Yes, this is what I think.

[zoobie]

It's a substitute for Miss or Mistress but not an abbreviation for them.

 

I'd clarify this with my child, but I wouldn't email the teacher.

[Ellie]

No, nothing has changed, especially the fact that it would be a rilly, rilly bad idea to correct your dc's teacher.

[Spy Car]

Ms. has always been intended to replace both Miss and Mrs. as an honorific that is not tied to marital status, just like Mr.

 

Bill

[fraidycat]

The flight agent that I just booked DD's international flight for this summer a couple days ago has her as Ms.

[Lady Florida.]

That's not true. It came about because both married and unmarried women particularly in the feminist movement wanted a title that didn't define them by marriage.

 

It's not an abbreviation for Miss. That's just incorrect. I have noticed that it has become more common. It may be that more unmarried women are using it. However, I'm married and I certainly use it.

 

:iagree:  It came about because no form of Mr. indicates whether or not a man is married and women wanted a term that didn't distinguish between married and unmarried. Master is archaic and only rarely used to refer to a boy. Ms. is neither an abbreviation for Miss or Mrs. but a term of its own.

 

In recent years I only hear Miss used when young children call a woman Miss Firstname. Even when I hear it in reference to a teen girl it's used with her first name and not her surname. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lady Florida

[Farrar]

I don't have a strong opinion about correcting the teacher (I'd definitely set the kid straight). But why do people think it's a bad idea? Just because it's not a huge deal and why stir the pot over something pretty minor?

[Spy Car]

I don't have a strong opinion about correcting the teacher (I'd definitely set the kid straight). But why do people think it's a bad idea? Just because it's not a huge deal and why stir the pot over something pretty minor?

 

We weren't burning our bras for nothing back in the 70s. Well, maybe not me :D

 

Bill

[kitten18]

I don't have a strong opinion about correcting the teacher (I'd definitely set the kid straight). But why do people think it's a bad idea? Just because it's not a huge deal and why stir the pot over something pretty minor?

I would maybe send back the worksheet with a note "is this a mistake?"

[MFG]

Ms. is neither an abbreviation for Miss or Mrs. but a term of its own.

 

 

This is my understanding. Also I thought because it is its own term and not an abbreviation it should be written without a period. Ms not Ms. But that does not seem to be common usage.

[Storygirl]

Thanks, everyone! I may or may not contact the teacher, but I don't think it's a bad idea to do so. I have a good relationship with her, and I would be writing to clarify, not correct.

 

The reason to contact the teacher is that my children are confused. I am saying one thing to them, and the teacher is saying another. And since their correct answers were marked wrong, I would want to ask if this is going to appear on any further tests or quizzes.

 

And I'm not sure why it would be wrong to bring it up, anyway. If the teacher were teaching an incorrect math fact, would parents let that go by? If it were an erroneous history fact, would that be okay to overlook?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Storygirl

[Chris in VA]

I'm a teacher, and I wouldn't mind being corrected.

 

And I still like Miss.

[Storygirl]

BTW, I'm terrible at remembering to use the LIKE button, but I appreciate all of the responses!

[Tanaqui]

Nevermind, I'm a doofus, and completely confused.
 

Edited April 8, 2016 by Tanaqui

[heartlikealion]

I live there and "MS" (all caps) is the abbreviation you'd use on mail. Is that what they meant?

 

HAHAHA nevermind, wrong context

Edited April 8, 2016 by heartlikealion

[Storygirl]

:laugh:

It's a substitute for Miss or Mistress but not an abbreviation for them.

 

 

Mistress?  I haven't heard that used as a title since, um, Mistress Quickly?

[Tanaqui]

Mistress?  I haven't heard that used as a title since, um, Mistress Quickly?

 

Missus is short for Mistress, which is why the abbreviation is Mrs.

[SKL]

I remember when Ms. was just beginning to be used, and it wasn't popular yet.  A lot of the reason for it was that neither Miss nor Mrs. felt right to many divorced women.

 

I have come to embrace Ms. because it makes things less awkward as a single mom.  Plus, in professional correspondence why should I need to know a person's marital status in order to properly address a letter to her?

[heartlikealion]

Miss sounds very young to me. Sounds like a teenager. Although, there is "Miss America."

[Crimson Wife]

 

It's weird though that it hasn't also supplanted Mrs to the same degree - if it replaced both, it would really be neutral.  But since a lot of people still use Mrs, it seems less so.

 

In certain situations, I very much prefer using Mrs. Surname to Ms. Surname and in others, I very much prefer using Ms. Surname to Mrs. Surname.

 

In the workplace, I went by Ms. because my marital status irrelevant at best and could be perceived negatively.

 

When I'm acting as my child's mom, I want to be called Mrs. because I'm married. Maybe this is just showing my age here, but when I hear "Ms." in social rather than professional situations, I think divorcee.

 

[Liz CA]

There are many places where Miss is still used frequently. Miss + first name.

 

 

I would NOT email the teacher and point out the mistake.

 

But isn't the "Miss" + first name a different thing altogether?A woman I used to work with was always addressed as "Miss Mary." She always laughed when new people came and were taken aback. She said people said it because she was so old."  :) Also, I have found that Filipinos often address women as "Miss Mary" to show proper respect.

[heartlikealion]

In certain situations, I very much prefer using Mrs. Surname to Ms. Surname and in others, I very much prefer using Ms. Surname to Mrs. Surname.

 

In the workplace, I went by Ms. because my marital status irrelevant at best and could be perceived negatively.

 

When I'm acting as my child's mom, I want to be called Mrs. because I'm married. Maybe this is just showing my age here, but when I hear "Ms." in social rather than professional situations, I think divorcee.

 

 

In written correspondence or conversation? Because orally it is all the same to my ear. Miss or Ms. If you introduced yourself as "Ms" at work I would probably think unmarried, then see your wedding ring and be really confused lol

 

[heartlikealion]

But isn't the "Miss" + first name a different thing altogether?A woman I used to work with was always addressed as "Miss Mary." She always laughed when new people came and were taken aback. She said people said it because she was so old."  :) Also, I have found that Filipinos often address women as "Miss Mary" to show proper respect.

 

I think of it as a different thing as well. In the South, many adults are introduced as Miss (or Ms??) Firstname to children.

 

[SKL]

In social situations I never hear people introduced as "Ms / Mrs."  People go by their names, and if relevant, who they are connected to and how.   e.g., "this is Jack Sprat and his wife Lulu."  Or "this is Lulu, Jack's wife" or "I'm Lulu, Emma's mom."

[SKL]

I do think it can be confusing for kids who don't know the marital status of their friends' parents.  I usually have my kids use "Mrs." for women, regardless of family structure.  I figure few women would be offended by a kid calling them "Mrs."

[Crimson Wife]

In social situations I never hear people introduced as "Ms / Mrs."  People go by their names, and if relevant, who they are connected to and how.   e.g., "this is Jack Sprat and his wife Lulu."  Or "this is Lulu, Jack's wife" or "I'm Lulu, Emma's mom."

 

I was thinking more healthcare and education professionals that I deal with as my child's mom. I'm not generally on a first-name basis with them aside from the behavior therapists whom we see 15-20 hours/week.

 

[eternalsummer]

I select Ms. when applicable not because I am a feminist (definitely am not) nor because I am divorced (definitely not that either) but because I have not changed my last name from my maiden name and I don't really ever plan to.  So I'm not Mrs. Soandso (that's my mom) but I'm not really Miss Soandso either (that's my sister, I guess).  I'm stuck with Ms.

 

If I did change my name, I'd have exactly the same first and last name as my husband's twin sister.  She is not cool with this idea and I'm not all that excited about it either, so I'm sticking with my maiden name.

[kiwik]

That's not true. It came about because both married and unmarried women particularly in the feminist movement wanted a title that didn't define them by marriage.

 

It's not an abbreviation for Miss. That's just incorrect. I have noticed that it has become more common. It may be that more unmarried women are using it. However, I'm married and I certainly use it.

 

 

This.  Women felt that since Mr no longer specified marital statement there should be a version for women too.  Most of the first people I met who used it were married teachers who used Ms (maiden name) at work but often Mrs (married name) in private life.  I had to explain to a friend recently though that Ms and Mrs weren't synonyms.  I would be a bit sad if we ended up with Miss for young unmarried women, Ms for older unmarried women and Mrs for married women though - not really the desired outcome and far more complicated.  My son't teacher is Miss K... though so it is still used.

[bettyandbob]

The only time I hear "Miss" used with adults in my area is for teachers of preschool age classes. Children address their teachers as Miss Sara or Miss Kim and if there's a male teacher it would be Mr. Joe, etc. This is mostly rec classes like swimming or art, but I have 4 yos tell me that they go to school and are in the "bear class with Miss Becky."

 

Outside of preschool situations I don't hear Miss used. I don't use Mrs for myself. I did change my name. I go by Ms. And always have. (Side note dh last name is at the beginning of the alphabet and easy to spell. So I changed mine because his name was easier to deal with. Even though I changed my name I don't think my marital status is relevant for most people to know.

[Carrie12345]

I began using Ms. before I was married.  I usually use Mrs. now, but I'm still perfectly comfortable with Ms.  Not only is my marriage status irrelevant to most things, but I don't expect random people to know whether or not I am married, or to inquire before addressing me.  I don't ask other women before addressing them.

 

I'm also fine being addressed without "title".

[Bluegoat]

But isn't the "Miss" + first name a different thing altogether?A woman I used to work with was always addressed as "Miss Mary." She always laughed when new people came and were taken aback. She said people said it because she was so old."  :) Also, I have found that Filipinos often address women as "Miss Mary" to show proper respect.

 

Well, the older way to do it in most English speaking places is that in a family, the mother would be Mrs. Lastname, the eldest daughter would be Miss Lastname, and younger daughters would be Miss Firstname.

 

The main place I seem to encounter Miss lately is in ballet school - the teachers who aren't middle aged or older are generally called Miss Firstname.  The older teachers seem to vary, but the French ones are Madam, even if they are not actually married.

[kitten18]

But isn't the "Miss" + first name a different thing altogether?A woman I used to work with was always addressed as "Miss Mary." She always laughed when new people came and were taken aback. She said people said it because she was so old." :) Also, I have found that Filipinos often address women as "Miss Mary" to show proper respect.

It might be a different thing but it's still not abbreviated as Ms.

[displace]

Miss seems to be used less often, I mostly see it as an option to choose on forms, or for young girls. Ms seems to be normative now.

 

My impression is that Miss is almost considered disrespectful for a grown women, as if it is infantilizing.

Similar to further down the thread, I teach my kids to say Miss First Name. I hope it's not offensive to anyone. My intentions are Mrs. Last name is too formal, and Ms. is too difficult for my kids to say. Now that they are older I think they could try to say Ms. correctly.

[SKL]

The last time my kids had a school teacher who wasn't married, they were 4yo.  Their female coaches etc. go by "Teacher ___" or "Coach ___."

[vonfirmath]

 

If I did change my name, I'd have exactly the same first and last name as my husband's twin sister.  She is not cool with this idea and I'm not all that excited about it either, so I'm sticking with my maiden name.

 

Cool. After marriage, I share first, middle, and last names with my husband's sister.  I think its neat. She must not mind too much because she recently got married and did not choose to take the chance to change her name away from it.

 

[QueenCat]

In written correspondence or conversation? Because orally it is all the same to my ear. Miss or Ms. If you introduced yourself as "Ms" at work I would probably think unmarried, then see your wedding ring and be really confused lol

 

 

I've never heard them pronounced the same orally. Ms has an almost "z" sound to it, while Miss has a "s" sound to it.

[heartlikealion]

I've never heard them pronounced the same orally. Ms has an almost "z" sound to it, while Miss has a "s" sound to it.

 

You're right! I don't know what I was thinking. I guess my brain was being lazy when reading it and it's been some time since I heard any of these titles IRL.

 

[QueenCat]

You're right! I don't know what I was thinking. I guess my brain was being lazy when reading it and it's been some time since I heard any of these titles IRL.

 

 

I've been told I'm wrong so much this week, IRL, that it feels good to be told I'm right about something! Thanks, you made my day in a weird sort of way ;)

[Ravin]

These days when I hear someone call a person aloud "Miss Firstname", "Miss Lastname," "Miz Firstname," or "Miz Lastname," I assume all those are simply verbalizations of Ms.

 

At work we address all letters to female clients to "Ms. Name." This is simpler and eliminates inquiring about marital status when it is irrelevant.

 

What we lack now is a gender-neutral general honorific for those who would prefer that and aren't a Dr.

 

:leaving: