When math takes forever

[blondeviolin]

My oldest (9yo) has finished Saxon 54 early. I ordered the last few unit of CLE 4 for review until next school year. I have required her to do the lesson section and then she rotates throug We Remember, Skill Builders, or Mental Math. At most, she's solving MAYBE 20 problems. And it's taking an hour. She's never been the fastest or most mathy. She gets concepts, but she can never recall facts. She even has a cheat sheet with all of the times tables! When I ask her to explain the processes, she can reteach it. But if I'm not hovering over her, everything takes forever. And I DESPERATELY need her to be independent with the review problems next year. And I need it to not take twenty minutes on one problem.

 

I will emphasize: When I'm teaching the concepts, she can grasps it well and can do the problems just fine. This is only an issue with review problems. (Ones that she absolutely knows how to do so she's bored or staring off.)

[EKS]

If she absolutely knows how to do the review problems, why are you wasting time having her do them?

 

It sounds like maybe a switch to a less review-intensive program might be in order.

[sbgrace]

Was she that slow with Saxon as well?

I have one with attention issues. He really did need me right there to direct/redirct his attention at that age, and especially with math.

That improved somewhat around 11 and, ironically, when we switched to CLE from another program. He doesn't struggle with math fact retention though, and that may be a big part of the issue?

 

My son picks half the problems to do on his own in CLE. He completes those, often picking the quickest/least involved stuff.

 

I then sit with him for the other half of the CLE lesson later. So he does his math in two shifts essentially. He's 12.

 

My other son completes his CLE independently and quickly.

 

Can she do those review problems for sure? If she's really resistant to review, I think CLE isn't a great choice for her. The new instruction is a small part of the lesson, and there will be just a handful of problems. The mastery and retention is in the spiral. I love that about CLE, but that doesn't mean it's a fit for everyone.

Edited April 6, 2016 by sbgrace

[Chris in VA]

You can try different strategies--

 

Give her a few problems at a time instead of the whole sheet. Some kids are overwhelmed when face with 20 problems. Give her two, then give her two more. Correct as you go. It would require some supervision, but you could pop out of the room to switch laundry, or have another child working on something where you can do the same thing, going between them.

 

You can set a timer and have her work two or three problems in X minutes.  You could reward her with something in her "currency."

 

You can have her do half now and half after dinner.

 

You can schedule something super-fun or rewarding right after math, so she is eager to finish.

 

You can try breaking the set up with movement--I swear, sometimes I would give dd some problems to do, but I'd make her run around the pool table that was in the middle of the school room/basement after every 3 problems! lol It actually did help. You could have some fun with this. For example, make a deck of cards from index cards and put a colored dot (3-4 colors, if you want) on the backs. On the fronts, write something she needs to do --"Do 10 jumping jacks" "run up the stairs and walk back down" "fold 5 towels (laundry". Draw little colored dots every 5 problems on her paper. She does 5, picks a card from the right pile, does it, then goes back and sits and does 5 more. Just to break it up, add some fun, add some movement, help her focus.

 

You can have her work beside you while you load the dishwasher or play quietly with the baby or something. Just enough for you to keep her focused.

 

Did you use the fact sheets with Saxon 5/4? I'm sure you are seeing how not reaching automaticity in the math facts can really affect one's speed at problem solving.

[sweetpea3829]

Maybe try Prodigy (link in my sig) for review? You can customize the concepts she see and because it's a fun game, kids are more motivated to actually solve the math quickly.

 

You could also use it as a reward.

[blondeviolin]

Yes, she can do the math. Because after absolutely refusing and staring at a wall for 90 minutes, she buckled down and solved all 12 of her problems in 25 minutes. Without my help.

 

We didn't use the fact sheets, but I had her working with Reflex Math every day for 18 mos. She only got to 80% mastered and then hovered there for MONTHS.

 

The other day I set a time for every problem and she beat the timer consistently. But I have six kids and don't want to be always setting a stupid timer. :glare:

 

She has been like this with any math program we've done. She doesn't actively defy, but she passively ignores. She ends up staring off or whatever, gets lost in multi-step problems, etc. She does it with other subjects, but I can just quickly redirect her and she'll get back to it. I sit with her for Latin because that's a lot to digest at 9.

 

Next year I will have four school-aged kids and can't hold her hand all of the time with something she's very capable of.

[sbgrace]

Could she have ADHD? (maybe inattention only form?)

 

My son is like that with math. He does have underlying issues in attention. Math isn't interesting to him and it takes a lot of focus, so he zones out easily with it compared to things like composition. That she can do whatever with a goal set/timer/etc. doesn't rule out there being an underlying issue. Kids with ADHD can buckle down when highly motivated--just not long term or consistently. I am mentioning this because I used to believe my son was just not trying because I would see him be able to focus and get things done under certain circumstances. He really struggles with both sustained attention and task initiation. Smart but Scattered helped me see where his strengths and weaknesses lie. He does take ADHD medication now (short acting Ritalin--give us 3 or so hours), and it does help.

 

 

[...................]

One thing we used with my daughter at that age is the Time Timer. You set a goal and then you earn a break when it's done and usually we splurge math lesson in two. As a bonus she got extra time in her break equal to the time left before the timer went off.

It's crucial to buy the real Time Timer. Seeing the little red pie grow smaller and smaller is HUGE for kids with attention issues!!! It's worth the 18 bucks.

So for example my dd had to finish half of her horizons lesson in 20 minutes. If she finished in 20 minutes she got a ten minute break- and if she finished in 18 minutes she got ten minutes plus 2 minutes. (Of course the work has to be neat and all)

The other crucial aspect is that they can do whatever they want in that break- go outside, trampoline, anything except the usual things that exacerbate ADD (screen time, artificial colors or foods etc)

Edited April 6, 2016 by Calming Tea

[...................]

Ps after a year and a half with the Time Timer my dd transitioned to setting a regular kitchen timer for just a break after completing one page. That year and a half really taught her slightly longer term focus and goal setting and allowed her to learn to concentrate for the prize - now she used Derek Owens and manages not only her entire lesson but a syllabus with homework etc. the worst I can say is every page has a drawing on it!

 

So, there is hope but some kids need more help to learn focusing strategies!

 

Also, be sure that she gets some free time in the morning before math, and the room is as quiet as possible.

[sbgrace]

Ps after a year and a half with the Time Timer my dd transitioned to setting a regular kitchen timer for just a break after completing one page. That year and a half really taught her slightly longer term focus and goal setting and allowed her to learn to concentrate for the prize - now she used Derek Owens and manages not only her entire lesson but a syllabus with homework etc. the worst I can say is every page has a drawing on it!

 

So, there is hope but some kids need more help to learn focusing strategies!

 

Also, be sure that she gets some free time in the morning before math, and the room is as quiet as possible.

 

I have a question. I have been thinking of a time timer or a timer that vibrates (or maybe some beep) at a set interval (say 1 minute or 5 minutes or whatever you chose). The idea with the vibrating one is that the child can learn (with motivation) to be paying attention when the timer goes off at set intervals. The hope is you are extending the ability to pay attention for set periods of time.

 

I haven't been sure which would be more helpful with my son, who has a hard time attending for any length of time/is easily distracted, so I haven't bought either. Do you have any thoughts?

Edited April 6, 2016 by sbgrace

[...................]

I have a question. I have been thinking of a time timer or a timer that vibrates (or maybe some beep) at a set interval (say 1 minute or 5 minutes or whatever you chose). The idea with the vibrating one is that the child can learn (with motivation) to be paying attention when the timer goes off at set intervals. The hope is you are extending the ability to pay attention for set periods of time.

 

I haven't been sure which would be more helpful with my son, who has a hard time attending for any length of time/is easily distracted, so I haven't bought either. Do you have any thoughts?

 

Hi,

 

My own dd would be very upset if she finally WAS focusing and then suddenly something started to buzz at her!! That would seriously bother her.  

 

YMMV but I think the Time Timer works.  It's huge- about 10 inches by 10 inches, and it sits right in front of them with the pie getting smaller and smaller, which happens slowly enough that there is no motivation to stare at it....but it works so that when they do want to check their pie, it's physically smaller.

[wapiti]

FWIW, only doing review for the next several months sounds really boring.  If she can do it already, what is the purpose - is it just that she needs a bit of review to remember?  Can you start the next level now, adding in only as much review as is necessary?  (Doesn't Saxon typically start off a level with plenty of review anyway?)

 

ETA, alternatively, if you really want to go over the same topics again, how about trying a different perspective so that it at least feels new and different and potentially somewhat more interesting?  e.g. a singapore workbook or a beast workbook

 

ETA again, I see from your signature that she is doing or has already done some or all of BA4?  Having done Saxon 5/4 + BA4, adding parts of CLE 4 when she already understands the concepts would sound like overkill.  I vote for moving on to whatever is next with fact practice on the side.

Edited April 6, 2016 by wapiti