Dictation in WWE 2, my son just can't do it. What do I do?

[Meadowlark]

I need a little help here. My son (9) in 3rd grade, is on week 33 of WWE 2. (We just discovered this curriculum this year and so are a little behind). He's done fine on everything for the most part, but he is just not getting dictation. Today he was almost in tears and I don't know how I'm supposed to help him when he just. can't. remember.

 

What am I supposed to do as the teacher? 

 

The weird part is, he's had plenty of dictation with AAS 1-5 so it's not like this is a new skill. Do you think it's appropriate what they're expecting kids to remember? On Monday, he'l'l have to do a very long sentence (3 lines!) and he's near hysterics about it. Can I break it up? What if he just can't remember? I myself probably couldn't even do it!

[EKS]

Yes, you can break it up.  You can also just stop doing the dictation part.  Do whatever you think is best for your son.

[Kiara.I]

Yes, you can break it up if needed. But you're saying he can do it in AAS? What are the differences between that and WWE? How often are you reading the sentences to him, and is he s able to repeat then back to you?

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[8filltheheart]

If it makes you feel any more secure about not forcing it, I have never used dictation with my kids except for the dictation in How to Teach Spelling.  I have some really poor spellers, and dictation was cruel and unusual punishment for both me and them.  My kids have all ended up fabulous writers, so it is definitely not a hill to die on.  (Spelling, otoh, still stinks.)

[TheAttachedMama]

FWIW, I think the dictation in WWE is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hard for a lot of kids.   You are not alone in having a kid brought to tears over the dictation.  

 

Dictation is really important, though.   I think it is one of the most important things you can do when teaching a kid to write.  It not only teaches spelling, mechanics, and penmanship, it also increases the child's working memory so they can hold thoughts in their head long enough to get them down on paper.    I have also realized that (typically) the skill that frustrates your child the most is the one they need the most practice with.  It is tempting to say, "Oh my child just can't narrate, so we are only going to do copywork."  But that is typically where you need to put the most practice in at.   It is hard for them because it is a weak area, and practice will make it easier because it will strengthen the skill.   You just need to find a way to scaffold the practice so you can give them the support they need to get better.

 

And, even though dictation is really important,  a child shouldn't be brought to tears over dictation.   In fact, I am sure that might do more harm than any good you will see from practicing dictation.   :)   They end up associated writing lessons with tears.   Not good.

 

We ended up switching to a studied dictation model...more similar to what Charlotte Mason advocated.   That works a lot better for my kids.   No more tears or frustration.    I am always telling myself, "You have to meet the kids where they are."   If they aren't ready to do cold, unprepared dictation, then maybe some prepared dictation would be a good thing.   It would give you that scaffolded practice.

 

I let my kids study the sentence, we talk about the "whys" behind the punctuation, we underline any words they might struggle with spelling together, we analyze those words by dividing them into syllables, we underline vowel teams, talking about the AAS rule(s) that apply, etc.   I also tell my kids to take a visual picture of the word and try to "picture" it in their mind 

 

Only THEN do I ask them to do dictation.   My goal is to get them to be able to remember the whole sentence (or groups of sentences).   HOWEVER--I think you have to meet a child where they are!   If they can't remember it, I keep repeating it over and over again until they can.   We work on oral dictation first, then writing.   (because if they can't even repeat the sentences back to me orally, there is little chance they will remember it to write it.)   

 

 

FWIW, we ended up switching to Spelling Wisdom as a source for all of our dictations.   We like it a lot better.   I love that it uses such beautiful language as sources for dictation.   Plus, it has the kids doing entire letters and paragraphs---which works on the form of those types of writings too.   :)

 

 

ETA:  To answer your specific question...."Heck yes, break that long dictation sentence up!"   Give it to him a sentence at a time...or whatever it takes.   Give him as much help as he needs.   Work on improvement, not necessarily doing things how the book tells you to.   

Edited March 31, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[8filltheheart]

Dictation is just one of many different methodologies for working with kids on writing skills.  

[greenbeanmama]

Lots of people do WWE a level "behind" (WWE2 in third grade, WWE4 in fifth grade, etc). So don't consider your son behind!

 

I repeat the dictation as much as needed. And I spell a word if they ask and shouldn't already know.

 

Have you tried giving your son a small dry erase board to use for dictation? We had issues with AAS dictation until we tried that. I think it makes it seem less permanent - a mistake can easily be wiped out, instead of sort-of erased on paper.

[Meadowlark]

It's definitely not the spelling part that he doesn't get. He's a natural speller who flew through AAS 1-5 by 2nd grade. He's also a very high reader.

 

It's just REMEMBERING the dictation. He hears it but then cannot read it back to me correctly.  I guess I thought we weren't supposed to break it up? But without that option, we're both left staring at each other with nowhere to go.

 

He absolutely never ever struggled with the dictation in AAS, but it was just 1 sentence at a time. Today it was one very long sentence with 3 commas and pretty wordy. He eventually got it, but I think I read it to him 15 times.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Meadowlark

[8filltheheart]

It's definitely not the spelling part that he doesn't get. He's a natural speller who flew through AAS 1-5 by 2nd grade. He's also a very high reader.

 

It's just REMEMBERING the dictation. He hears it but then cannot read it back to me correctly. I guess I thought we weren't supposed to break it up? But without that option, we're both left staring at each other with nowhere to go.

 

He absolutely never ever struggled with the dictation in AAS, but it was just 1 sentence at a time. Today it was one very long sentence with 3 commas and pretty wordy. He eventually got it, but I think I read it to him 15 times.

in that case I would break it down into small enough parts that he is successful. You should try not to have him stressed or discouraged in his attempts. If that leads to successful outcomes, great! If not, it might mean a different approach might be a better fit. Edited March 31, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[texasmama]

When I used WWE with my sons, I always repeated or broke up segments of the dictation as much as they required in order to avoid frustration.  I have not used WWE with my little dd.

[hornblower]

Have you seen the video of SWB doing dictation with her 13yo? 

[blondeviolin]

Yes! Google Dictation with Dan. There are a few videos of it. And SWB herself says it's absolutely okay to repeat it more than thrice.

[mamachanse]

Have you listened to SWB's talk on teaching elementary writing? It's available on her website for a few dollars and is very comforting and encouraging and worth a listen. My second son is now half way through fourth grade and we are just beginning level 4. He still has a tough time remembering dictation even though he is a great speller and reader. A lot of times he is very close but changes words (that still make sense) or paraphrases what I read to him. I have started taking the longer dictations one sentence at a time because it doesn't help either of us he freaks out. I'd rather take it slowly and let him gain confidence and go from there. If we are having a particularly rough day, I let him do copywork that day and try again the next. One thing I have noticed that helps him, and I think SWB suggested it in the talk I referenced, is to have him close his eyes and picture the words as he repeats them to me. My first child could repeat every word verbatim and write it since level one, so this has definitely been a learning experience for me. It definitely shows there are all different types of learners. Good luck!

[Roseto27]

It sounds like it's an auditory memory issue. You could try playing games that improve this skill. You can google for more, but one of our favorites is "I'm Going to the Market." We sometimes play after dinner and go around the table. Someone will start, "I'm going to the market to buy some milk," and the next person says, "I'm going to the market to buy some milk and an apple." We continue around the circle adding to the list until someone misses one. It sounds simple but it does a lot to help with auditory memory.

 

There're also a few FunDecks dealing with auditory memory and several other strategies that you can employ. Try having him repeat the sentence to you before he begins writing. If he can't repeat the whole sentence, try to have him remember one or two more words than he originally repeated. Like everything else, it's a matter of stretching him a little at a time.

[Reefgazer]

Dictation in WWE is ridiculously hard for the grade level of the reading and narration, in my opinion. DS was in WWE 4 and the narrations were ridiculously easy for him, but the dictations were ridiculously hard. I just reduced the dictation to a fraction of what was printed, or came up with my own dictation from the reading. Don't sweat it; just adjust the dictation as necessary.

[redsquirrel]

FWIW, I think the dictation in WWE is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hard for a lot of kids.   You are not alone in having a kid brought to tears over the dictation.  

 

Dictation is really important, though.   I think it is one of the most important things you can do when teaching a kid to write.  It not only teaches spelling, mechanics, and penmanship, it also increases the child's working memory so they can hold thoughts in their head long enough to get them down on paper.    I have also realized that (typically) the skill that frustrates your child the most is the one they need the most practice with.  It is tempting to say, "Oh my child just can't narrate, so we are only going to do copywork."  But that is typically where you need to put the most practice in at.   It is hard for them because it is a weak area, and practice will make it easier because it will strengthen the skill.   You just need to find a way to scaffold the practice so you can give them the support they need to get better.

 

And, even though dictation is really important,  a child shouldn't be brought to tears over dictation.   In fact, I am sure that might do more harm than any good you will see from practicing dictation.   :)   They end up associated writing lessons with tears.   Not good.

 

 

 

 

ETA:  To answer your specific question...."Heck yes, break that long dictation sentence up!"   Give it to him a sentence at a time...or whatever it takes.   Give him as much help as he needs.   Work on improvement, not necessarily doing things how the book tells you to.   

 

I wish I could like this 100 times.

 

Dictation is important. It really is.  It helps kids keep their argument in their head long enough to put them down on paper.  It helps with that whole "I can't remember what I wanted to say" problem that so many people have. The whole point of WWE is 'Turing incoherent thoughts into words and putting words on paper".  WWE allows the student to work on those skills in isolation before they have to move on to using them together.  As SWB says in her writing lecture, to make them learn those skills at the same time they are creating content is like learning to play piano AND compose the music at the same time.

 

And yes, if it is difficult, then it needs to be worked on, not abandoned. At some point the skill will need to be learned, so it's going to have to happen in some context.

 

If you don't know the philosophy of WWE then you might want to get SWB's audio lecture where she discusses the reasons behind doing narration, copywork and dictation. They all have a reason and they build good writing skills.

[austen]

My son is older (5th) and dictation is really hard for him, too. It's not that he can't remember the words. He just is a very reluctant writer. One thing that helped us is that we did "French dictation," which I learned from Brave Writer. Instead of dictating all the words, it's more like fill-in-the-blank.  I would type out his dictation, leaving missing words that he would fill in. You might want to google for more specifics.

It sort of "eased" him into dictation and doing that for awhile really helped.

 

Edited April 3, 2016 by austen

[reign]

My girls also think the dictation is very long. The key is We don't look at it as something they should be able to do. We look at it as something they should practice. So they might not be able to get the full sentence right and I may have to break it up into chunks or chop the ending off. But they are continuing to work on the skill and it's getting easier.