stupidusername Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 By "basic geometry" I am referring to the material covered on the SAT or ACT, plus an introduction to geometric proofs. It seems to me that all of this material is in my old Saxon Algebra 2 book, which covers a mix of Algebra, basic trigonometry, and Geometry. (I may be wrong about this. If so, please let me know!) It seems to me, further, that every Geometry and trigonometry problem in this book can be completed in about one month (assuming roughly 20 problems per day and five lessons per week). If I'm right -- that is, if all the geometry a kid needs to do well on the SAT or ACT can be covered in one month -- why do most public school students spend an entire academic year on Geometry? Are they spending a lot of time on material that isn't in the Saxon Algebra 2 book? I feel like I must be missing something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

wapiti Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) I have no familiarity with Saxon at that level, but random older threads indicate that more geometry is included in subsequent Saxon texts. That makes sense in light of the fact that a month's worth of geometry would not be sufficient for a geometry credit. FWIW, for most students, barring special circumstances, I would be reluctant to consider prepping for SAT/ACT to be the only end goal as they are not end-of-course tests for geometry or anything else. (Also note that the Redesigned SAT contains substantially fewer geometry questions than the old SAT - 6 total, 3 on each of two math sections. I have no idea about the ACT.) Just for an example of what may be covered in PS: two of my kids are using Glencoe McGraw Hill Common Core Geometry at school, one at a public charter and another at a private school. There is no way this material could be covered in a month at anything remotely resembling a normal, do-able pace. NB: I cannot recommend this particular text; I just thought the TOC might be somewhat instructive. ETA, in my area, it is possible to find month-long summer school geometry courses, though those are 3 hours per day *for class alone* not including homework, plus they are only open to students who already failed the year-long course. Edited March 26, 2016 by wapiti 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Tsuga Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 By "basic geometry" I am referring to the material covered on the SAT or ACT, plus an introduction to geometric proofs. It seems to me that all of this material is in my old Saxon Algebra 2 book, which covers a mix of Algebra, basic trigonometry, and Geometry. (I may be wrong about this. If so, please let me know!) It seems to me, further, that every Geometry and trigonometry problem in this book can be completed in about one month (assuming roughly 20 problems per day and five lessons per week). If I'm right -- that is, if all the geometry a kid needs to do well on the SAT or ACT can be covered in one month -- why do most public school students spend an entire academic year on Geometry? Are they spending a lot of time on material that isn't in the Saxon Algebra 2 book? I feel like I must be missing something. I haven't seen the new SAT. I do not think that Geometry can be covered in a month. I did Saxon in 1992-1995. It used a spiral so we did some geometry in Algebra II but then we did actual Geometry, then Trig / pre-Calc, then Calculus. I don't think the month of Geometry intro you are seeing is Saxon Geometrty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

justasque Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 By "basic geometry" I am referring to the material covered on the SAT or ACT, plus an introduction to geometric proofs. It seems to me that all of this material is in my old Saxon Algebra 2 book, which covers a mix of Algebra, basic trigonometry, and Geometry. (I may be wrong about this. If so, please let me know!) It seems to me, further, that every Geometry and trigonometry problem in this book can be completed in about one month (assuming roughly 20 problems per day and five lessons per week). If I'm right -- that is, if all the geometry a kid needs to do well on the SAT or ACT can be covered in one month -- why do most public school students spend an entire academic year on Geometry? Are they spending a lot of time on material that isn't in the Saxon Algebra 2 book? I feel like I must be missing something. I think that Saxon says they spread the geometry content over several textbooks; they don't claim that the Alg2 book contains an entire geometry course. Using your estimate, you'd do about 400 problems in a month; using similar assumptions it would be 3600 problems over the course of a full-year class. The year's class can cover a lot more material, in a lot more depth, with a lot more multi-step, "challenge" problems to help the student grasp the material, retain it, develop a working knowledge of how to apply it, and make connections to other "critical thinking" skills across the curriculum. Even if cramming with a month-long course gets you enough to survive the college entrance exams, a student would be missing out on a LOT of experience and material if that's all the geometry they had over their high school years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Farrar Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 There's so much vocabulary, axioms, rules, etc. to be memorized with geometry. And you can't really apply it all until you've gone through all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

lmrich Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 No. I don't think so. If I were trying to cram, I would use Khan Academy. However, this cannot count as a geometry credit by any stretch. It is SAT prep, not a math class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Legomom Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) A couple of thoughts regarding spending 1 month on geometry: The Robinson Center for Young Scholars at the University of Washington has a 4-5 week intensive geometry class that is meant to count as a full high school credit, There are teaching assistants that help with concepts and problems but it is not a lecture based class. The students work alone or in groups and proceed through the material with assistance as necessary. There is a lot of homework, so my impression is that geometry is the student's full-time job for 5 weeks, which could be 160-200 hours. It has certain eligibility requirements, so it is not for everyone, but it is something that ds seriously considered as alternative to spending a year on geometry. Also, we have a graduate math student who works with my teens on their math studies and in his opinion, the most important part of geometry is learning how to write proofs, particularly for students who may go on to higher math. I don't have experience in higher math, but I thought that this was interesting to hear and I am not sure how this would affect spending 1 intensive month on geometry versus spending one year on it. Anyway, just a few thoughts -- best wishes in your decision. Edited March 26, 2016 by Legomom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

stupidusername Posted March 27, 2016 Author Share Posted March 27, 2016 There's so much vocabulary, axioms, rules, etc. to be memorized with geometry. And you can't really apply it all until you've gone through all that. I agree, but those axioms and so forth aren't included on the SAT and ACT, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

stupidusername Posted March 27, 2016 Author Share Posted March 27, 2016 Thanks for the responses, everyone. I still believe that what I wrote at the outset is correct -- namely, it appears to be possible to easily cover every Geometry topic on the ACT and SAT in about one month. I am not going to have my son spend just one month on Geometry and I do not recommend that anyone else do so. But for an average kid who is just trying to learn enough math to do well on his SATs, an entire year on Geometry seems excessive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MotherGoose Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 I don't have a child that age, so take this with a grain of salt. I did geometry in 9th grade at public school many years ago. My concern about geometry in a month would be that true understanding of abstract concepts presented in geometry takes awhile to sink in. Even if you can recite it, you might not be able to apply it in a month to unusual problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MarkT Posted March 27, 2016 Share Posted March 27, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the responses, everyone. I still believe that what I wrote at the outset is correct -- namely, it appears to be possible to easily cover every Geometry topic on the ACT and SAT in about one month. I am not going to have my son spend just one month on Geometry and I do not recommend that anyone else do so. But for an average kid who is just trying to learn enough math to do well on his SATs, an entire year on Geometry seems excessive. Get a good "new" SAT review book and use that. Review the stuff that your student does not fully understand in the SAT book by using online resources. Edited March 27, 2016 by MarkT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

vonfirmath Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 By "basic geometry" I am referring to the material covered on the SAT or ACT, plus an introduction to geometric proofs. It seems to me that all of this material is in my old Saxon Algebra 2 book, which covers a mix of Algebra, basic trigonometry, and Geometry. (I may be wrong about this. If so, please let me know!) It seems to me, further, that every Geometry and trigonometry problem in this book can be completed in about one month (assuming roughly 20 problems per day and five lessons per week). If I'm right -- that is, if all the geometry a kid needs to do well on the SAT or ACT can be covered in one month -- why do most public school students spend an entire academic year on Geometry? Are they spending a lot of time on material that isn't in the Saxon Algebra 2 book? I feel like I must be missing something. I took Geometry in summer school in HS. I am VERY glad I did because I think I would have been bored in a longer class. Though I guess it is possible I missed something, I got all the way through Differential Equations without noticing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

vonfirmath Posted March 28, 2016 Share Posted March 28, 2016 A couple of thoughts regarding spending 1 month on geometry: The Robinson Center for Young Scholars at the University of Washington has a 4-5 week intensive geometry class that is meant to count as a full high school credit, There are teaching assistants that help with concepts and problems but it is not a lecture based class. The students work alone or in groups and proceed through the material with assistance as necessary. There is a lot of homework, so my impression is that geometry is the student's full-time job for 5 weeks, which could be 160-200 hours. It has certain eligibility requirements, so it is not for everyone, but it is something that ds seriously considered as alternative to spending a year on geometry. Also, we have a graduate math student who works with my teens on their math studies and in his opinion, the most important part of geometry is learning how to write proofs, particularly for students who may go on to higher math. I don't have experience in higher math, but I thought that this was interesting to hear and I am not sure how this would affect spending 1 intensive month on geometry versus spending one year on it. Anyway, just a few thoughts -- best wishes in your decision. My husband (who was part of the Robinson Center at Univ of WA and went on to get a masters in Mathematics) absolutely agrees about proofs. All of his higher level math classes had no numbers involved -- just proofs for their problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

FloridaLisa Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 A couple of thoughts regarding spending 1 month on geometry: {snip} Also, we have a graduate math student who works with my teens on their math studies and in his opinion, the most important part of geometry is learning how to write proofs, particularly for students who may go on to higher math. I don't have experience in higher math, but I thought that this was interesting to hear and I am not sure how this would affect spending 1 intensive month on geometry versus spending one year on it. Anyway, just a few thoughts -- best wishes in your decision. That's one of my beefs with Saxon geometry...no proofs. I think proofs help with not just geometry but help develop logical thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

stupidusername Posted March 30, 2016 Author Share Posted March 30, 2016 That's one of my beefs with Saxon geometry...no proofs. I think proofs help with not just geometry but help develop logical thinking. Saxon Algebra 2 includes Geometry proofs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

EKS Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Also, we have a graduate math student who works with my teens on their math studies and in his opinion, the most important part of geometry is learning how to write proofs, particularly for students who may go on to higher math. I absolutely agree with this, however. For most students, the immediate reason to take geometry is that it is featured on college admissions tests. Now that the SAT has changed and essentially eliminated geometry, that reason might not be as compelling, but for students choosing the ACT, it is still an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Julie of KY Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Can a "basic" geometry course be covered in a month (in 1-2 hours per day, not full time) - No. Too much to cover if you want to do it well. Can you teach a student who has a good algebra base and good elementary geometry base, the geometry and trig required for college board testing in a month - probably. My main problem with this is that it is surface level teaching and doesn't achieve much other than teaching to the test, which definitely has some value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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