Low NNAT scores

[swmoon]

I'm new here, and really appreciate any insight anyone can give me. My 3rd grader was recently given the NNAT as a gifted program screening test. He is very high achieving - absolutely adores math, and has scored very high relative to his class on reading comprehension tests. (I think this was measured as a Lexile level but honestly wasn't too concerned with the details at the time, since this was before the NNAT results.) He may well be more "bright" than "gifted", which is fine. My concern is that the NNAT came back 31st percentile. All I want to know is: Is an NNAT score that is significantly lower than the child's *probable* IQ a red flag for visual or learning issues, or is it normal for some bright students to get low scores? 

 

He has a brother who was identified for the gifted program and I just can't see where there's any difference between them in academic potential; his brother is stronger in reading but much weaker in math, and it all seems to even out. I'd like to just file this NNAT test away as an "oh well," but I want to make sure I'm not burying my head in the sand. I am hesitant to ask the school about it since (a) 31st percentile is still within the band considered "average" intelligence and (b) it would open up a huge can of worms for them to assign diagnostic value to the gifted screening test. 

 

Thanks in advance for any advice - even "stop overthinking this and relax" would be super helpful. :)

 

EDIT: I obviously don't homeschool - is that a requirement for posting? I found so many informative posts on these forums that I thought it was worth a shot to ask but if this doesn't belong here, please let me know and I sincerely apologize! 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by swmoon

[Another Lynn]

Welcome!  Homeschooling is not a requirement to post.  I am not familiar with the NNAT test, but wanted to welcome you anyway. 

[Guest]

Hiya!

You might also want to post this over on the afterschooling board.

[AggieMama]

NNAT is a non-verbal test. It basically measures visual spatial reasoning. It just might mean that your child is not a visual learner. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Compare those result to other "IQ" result such as CogAT or similar results. It might mean he didn't do well on that day, I wouldn't worry about it too much if he is performing at a high level. I'm having to come to grips that DD didn't make the gifted program in our district, although my husband and I both gifted experts by experience or education, agree that she is gifted. Sometimes the programs are not set up to help everyone who needs to be helped, and misplacements are all too common. It's the sad nature of the beast called public school.

[swmoon]

Thanks for the friendly welcomes and thank you, AggieMama, for the reassurance! I've googled this beyond all reason and I've finally decided that even though the NNAT test makers and the school both claim that it's NOT a test of visual spatial ability (but rather one of "general ability"), there's no way poor visual spatial skills could not affect the result. I've just been unsure whether visual spatial weakness is something I'm supposed to address, or just the way he's wired. (Hopefully by the time he's driving, all cars will parallel park themselves....)

 

NNAT is the only test given in 3rd grade. I have the option for OLSAT in 4th if I choose to retest him - it's only done by parent request in 4th grade. I'd be really curious to see those scores because I think OLSAT gives a verbal/nonverbal breakdown. However, I don't want DS to worry about the gifted label, so I need to carefully consider whether to retest. There's no funding for gifted programs in our district anyway.

 

Thank you again for your responses! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Another Lynn]

Thanks for the friendly welcomes and thank you, AggieMama, for the reassurance! I've googled this beyond all reason and I've finally decided that even though the NNAT test makers and the school both claim that it's NOT a test of visual spatial ability (but rather one of "general ability"), there's no way poor visual spatial skills could not affect the result. I've just been unsure whether visual spatial weakness is something I'm supposed to address, or just the way he's wired. (Hopefully by the time he's driving, all cars will parallel park themselves....)

 

NNAT is the only test given in 3rd grade. I have the option for OLSAT in 4th if I choose to retest him - it's only done by parent request in 4th grade. I'd be really curious to see those scores because I think OLSAT gives a verbal/nonverbal breakdown. However, I don't want DS to worry about the gifted label, so I need to carefully consider whether to retest. There's no funding for gifted programs in our district anyway.

 

Thank you again for your responses! 

 

As the parent of a new driver, the bolded above made me LOL.  :lol:

 

[PeterPan]

Well have you had indications of anything else?  Does he have attention issues?  Have you had his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist?  Given the discrepancy, yes, I would dig a little there.  A developmental optometrist can do a normal annual vision exam (under $100 in our area) and *screen* for developmental vision issues.  You find a dev. optom through COVD.  It's kind of a normal thing to do, like going to the dentist.

 

If he has some attention issues or low processing speed, same gig, they would have an impact.  Did he complete the test?  Does his attention drift a lot or does he stare off in space a lot?  Was he able to fill in the bubbles easily?  Does his hand hurt when he writes?  Was the room noisy to him or was there some kind of distraction?  (temperature, whatever)  I would actually ask him these things.

 

And you could even ask basic health questions, like did he feel well that day, was it at a time when his blood sugar might be low or he was distracted by waiting for lunch or realizing he was missing something he wanted to be in...

 

A 10 point spread in IQs among siblings is pretty common. It really can be the difference between bright and gifted.  My understanding is some kids with "bright" IQs are put in the gifted programs at schools, so then if you drop that 10 points you might go from bright to not qualifying, sure.  Or it might be there's an actual discrepancy here.  To have a *significant* spread between verbal and perceptual scores on an IQ test would indicate NVLD or other serious problems.  Have you ever had indication with him of some kind of learning disability?  

‎

images.pearsonassessments.com/Images/PDF/Webinar/NNAT2_Part_III_Handout_11142012.pdf

 

This link is to a pdf with a score curve for the NNAT.  If you look at it, 31%ile is only about .5 standard deviations below the mean, meaning it's not as low as it sounds.  Usually you want to see 1-1.5SD *minimum* before it's significant.  Did they give you a standard score?  That's actually more useful, because then it's relative to 100, like an IQ score.  Any time you're looking for discrepancies, you want to look at the standard score .  Just looking at the graph, it looks like that 31%ile converts to a standard score in the 90s.  They're using 15 as one standard deviation.  If you have 2 standard deviations of discrepancy between *expected* and what is actually happening, that is pretty significant.  So if the sibling's score (standard score) was say 120 or 130 and the dc scored 90, that's a pretty big discrepancy.  

 

A clinical psych around here can run IQ, achievement, and an ADHD screening for $800.  That would be one way to go about it.  I'd at least want his eyes checked, just because it's kind of a normal thing to do.  I'm not saying something IS going on, because you haven't provided scores for the siblings.  A 10 point spread can actually be pretty big as far as how it plays out with kids.  But a 30 point spread, that would be pretty big.  That would raise my eyebrows and have me just checkign some things.  Not going crazy, but just doing reasonable checks.

Edited March 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[swmoon]

OhElizabeth, thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I'll try to address your questions:

 

- He did complete the test. He says it was hard, but nothing else funky about it. He said he did make a mistake filling in the wrong line on the bubble sheet but then he fixed it. He says he paid attention to doing the bubbles correctly.

 

- The IQ score was 92. I can't compare to my older one because when he tested for G/T, they used a different protocol that combined STAR scores with a nonverbal test and we were never given a score or the name of the test. I believe they used a lower cutoff or easier criteria then because many more kids were identified as gifted in the old system. It was all a little mysterious and shady. This year, the sole criterion is 95th percentile on NNAT, but I can't say whether my older child would have met that. 

 

- There are currently no signs of learning issues. His teachers would say there were never any signs. Being a bit of a worrier, though, I had some concerns when he was in preschool until 2nd grade. Lots of letter reversals, drawing mirror images of words and pictures, and he had a hard time learning to read. (By "hard time", I have to admit I am basing that on gut instinct. He never fell below grade level but everything just seemed like much more of a struggle, and progress was very slow until he just took off in 2nd grade and went to the top of the class. I started a phonics program at home because the whole-word methods they use at school just weren't cutting it AT ALL.) He used to guess words a lot based on what letters were in them (regardless of what order - like "stop" would be "tops"), and he used to have trouble tracking lines when reading. THIS ALL DISAPPEARED in 2nd grade, maybe a little after he turned 8. And everyone who had told me not to worry for several years said "SEE?" He's also very ambidextrous and my instinct says that's related somehow but I can't back it up. :)

 

He has very nice handwriting and good spelling, which both seem to point to everything being ok. As I said earlier, he now gets very high scores on reading comprehension and math has always come easily to him. 

 

He sometimes complains that school is hard, but then comes home with 100% on everything and clearly understands what's being taught. I thought it was anxiety and now I'm second-guessing that. He is socially well-adapted, intellectually curious, has decent physical coordination, does homework quickly and efficiently... basically everything outside of some early reading struggles has been totally fine.

 

Neuropsych evals seem to run multiple thousands around here, but maybe folks are getting more comprehensive testing than we'd need. It's a high cost of living area. He is getting a regular eye exam soon, and I can ask about a reference for a developmental optometrist.

 

Thanks very much!!

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by swmoon

[PeterPan]

You don't need a referral for the dev. optom, and since he's due for an eye check anyway and the regular eye doc hasn't done anything about the developmental vision problems (tracking, etc.), I'd skip the regular entirely and go directly to a developmental optometrist.  Notice you're saying the tracking problems went away but at the same time he's filling in sections of a test incorrectly, losing his place.  

 

So I would get his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist.  You find them through COVD.  They vary in how they practice, so call around and compare.  You want to do that annual with the dev. optom., because it gives you an inexpensive way to see if you like him.  A full dev. vision exam is several hours and more expensive, so you want to start with that annual when you can.  

 

Since he had so many erasures, I would ask the school to review his test form and see if it was erased cleanly and hand score if it went through a machine.  That would be just a little check, a reasonable check.

 

It's sort of discriminatory to use a test that relies so much on visual skills to measure IQ when a dc could in fact have visual processing issues due to developmental vision problems.  I had my dd tested around 5th grade, and she had visual memory problems because of convergence and depth perception problems.  So it's entirely possible that he has something going on with his vision and that when it's corrected you could retest and get a totally different score.  I would definitely consider having the school retest if he ends up getting doing vision therapy for the vision issues.

 

Vision may or may not explain how hard he's having to work.  He may have some ADHD, some low processing speed.  You did the right thing adding to his reading instruction.  Since his spelling, etc. are doing well, we'll assume it's *not* dyslexia.  That leaves you back at vision problems and possibly ADHD.  Your ped can run a screening for the ADHD.  If there are no learning disabilities suspected, no praxis, no other complicating medical issues, a neuropsych eval is really overkill.  You just want a basic psych eval for IQ, achievement, EF (executive function) screening, etc.  These psychs all charge by the hour, and the long evals (4-6+ hours) are when you're digging in on learning disabilities, praxis, etc.  

 

Yes, being ambidextrous means the lateralization in the brain hasn't occurred.  My ds is doggone close to ambidextrous.  He's 7, and his writing is basically identical no matter which hand he uses.  For gymnastics, he's almost identical going either right or left for mushroom.  Now for cartwheels he is more dominant on one side than the other.  But for many things, he's both.  And when he has been tested for dominance, I get a different answer each time from different professionals.  The OT told me that it's literally down to whichever hand he uses for that particular thing (scissors vs. pen vs. ...)  There's a really interesting book on dominance, The Dominance Factor, that helps you evaluate dominance in a bunch of areas to create a dominance profile.  She then gives instructional advice based on that.  It's kind of interesting.  Your library might have the book.  

 

There is some discussion that if dominance is not established then the brain kind of flounders deciding which side to put language on.  It can result in very inefficient word retrieval and language problems.  So some people will say to work on dominance, do repeated activities that improve dominance (catching a ball with ONLY the dominant hand, that kind of thing).  I don't know.  I haven't done it yet.  I think in general OT is a good thing, and if you have had ANY indications that could warrant it (sensory issues, squirminess when sitting, hand pain when writing, low tone, ADHD, whatever), then I'd get one and see what they find.  They can test for retained primitive reflexes.  Sometimes retained reflexes are the connection between the vision/tracking problems and the funky dominance/motor/body problems.  There's a book on that too, title escapes me.  But you can read about them.  A good dev. optom will test for them because they totally glitch up vision.

 

So now you're not crazy.  I'm not saying go overboard.  You were going to do an eye exam anyway, so just do it with a deve. optom.  You can google to find the tests for retained primitive reflexes.  They're not hard to check at home.  And actually, I'm rereading and noticing the reversals and stuff.  I'll bet as you dig in you'll realize you have enough reasons to get an OT eval.  Just explore some paths like that and see.  I've had both my kids in OT and both my kids to the VT doc.  Ironically, my dd with ADHD needed VT, where my ds with dyslexia does not, so far as we know, have developmental vision problems.  Go figure.   :)

Edited March 26, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[swmoon]

Wow, thank you!! That was all really, really helpful. :) I will definitely find a developmental optometrist as a start. The dominance part is fascinating, too - thanks for the book recommendation! 

[swmoon]

I realize this is a year later but I just have to say thank you to OhElizabeth for your kind advice. We had our son tested by a developmental optometrist, who found convergence insufficiency and tracking issues. He went to 6 months of vision therapy and has transformed from a reluctant reader to a passionate one. I have no idea if he will ever score well on a gifted screening test (optometrist explained that some visual spatial skills won't catch up right away, if ever) but that stupid NNAT score prompted us to get him help we had no idea he needed, so I'm grateful for it! 

 

I hope leaving an update on how things turned out for us (more or less) might be helpful to anyone who finds this post by Googling the same question someday. :) Thank you again!