Math help! Math is only reason I research charter schools...

[bethben]

My daughter is 8 and math is the one subject that is wrecking our homeschool relationship.  She was doing Saxon 3 and it was starting to outpace her.  The other problem with Saxon is that past Saxon 3, it would require her to write out problems which would take her forever to do.  ADD along with a perfectionist side means that if she has to write out problems, math will take longer than her tolerance for it would last.

 

I tried switching to Rod and Staff math 3 and having her write in the textbook.  She has the ability, but I think the number of problems is getting to her.  Yes, I could just limit the problems, but just seeing all those problems even knowing she doesn't have to do them all is immediately overwhelming and discouragement sets in.

 

Finally, she does understand subtraction, addition, and is starting some multiplication, but her number chart sense is severely lacking.  For example, if I asked her to find a number between 15 and 22, we would have to get out the number chart, put pennies on every number between 15 and 22 and then figure it out from there.  If she a mental math problem like 25-10, she hasn't been able to figure out how to tackle this without manipulative (which is fine, but she just doesn't have that number line in her head).  I think her brain isn't ready for math without manipulatives (I know it will get there, but it's hard to progress in math when they expect that knowledge has sunk in).

 

My thoughts:

 

Singapore:  I've been thinking about this a lot for some reason - but, I feel like this would get over her head quickly because she is so dependent upon manipulatives still.  She needs constant review.  I used this with two of my kids and the lack of review built in was a definite problem.

 

Saxon:  She needs a workbook or book she can write in.

 

Math-U-See:  Good number of problems, but not enough review?  The sequence is a little weird also.

 

Horizons:  Would color help just to make it more interesting?  Do they have review built in?

[Arcadia]

For Saxon, check out Saxon Intermediate Math 3. That is more classroom friendly but has a practice workbook for kids to write in.

 

However, I would play lots of chutes/snakes and ladder for number sense to sink in.

[OneStepAtATime]

Could she have dyscalculia?

 

Honestly, I would not press forward right now.  She seems to be needing help with subitization skills.  You could look at the Ronit Bird e-books and books to try and solidify her subitization skills first.   (linked below)

http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/#ebook1

 

After running through the Ronit Bird stuff you might consider looking at CLE.  CLE worked way better than Saxon or Singapore for my math struggler.  Give the placement test, cut out review problems she doesn't need, let her use the CLE reference chart and work on math facts separately (which is how CLE is structured).  You could just try out a couple of light units first before shelling out a ton of money.

 

MUS might also really help.  My kids needed more spiral to retain anything, though.

[mumto2]

While I was reading the start of your post I thought of MUS. I have never used it with mine but have helped with a friend's dc's who do. Considering many people apparently (per friend although her kids have their own workbooks) only do every other page (saving the clean page for sibling when they do the course) I think there is probably plenty of practice available. I believe there are two spiral lessons at the end of each section, I think a section is five lessons but not sure.

 

The worksheets are clear and not cluttered which is a plus also. The sequence is different. One thing at a time except for the spiral reviews. So a year concentrating on multiplication etc.

[sweetpea3829]

As you began detailing your daughter's interaction with numbers, my own daughter immediately popped into view.  

 

DD10 has some very similar characteristics.  Lack of a mental number line.  Difficulty reasoning.  Difficulty generalizing.  Etc.  

 

My daughter was diagnosed with dyscalculia a few years ago.  I'm not saying your DD definitely has dyscalculia, but she does seem to have at least some of the symptoms of it.  

 

So...that said..

 

I've been using MUS with DD10 for a couple of years now.  We had tried a multitude of math curricula prior to MUS.  And while I do not particularly like MUS, so far, it is working for DD.  The pages are not overwhelming for her, the pace is incremental and slow enough for her.  The concrete manipulatives aspect works for her.  Focusing on a specific concept for an entire school year works for her.  

 

 

 

So...the obvious issues with MUS....the scope and sequence is wonky.  Not a big deal unless you have to test every year.  There is review built into the worksheets so even though it is mastery (and it's one of the most mastery maths out there), it does have review.  

 

We recently discovered Prodigy Math (https://www.prodigygame.com/referral.php?referralCode=7A1E6A3262C4&referralName=Crystal%2BGracioso&referralOrigin=link) and I have been putting the kids on pretty much every day for a half hour.  Because you can choose specific math concepts, I have found it to be extremely useful for working in spiral review for all four of my kids.  And because it's a role-playing wizard game...the kids ADORE it. They beg to play and the half hour I let them isn't enough according to them.  

 

One other issue with MUS is the poor quality of it's problem solving instruction.  Easily remedied by adding in Process Skills in Problem Solving.  

 

 

 

 

 

[forty-two]

My daughter is 8 and math is the one subject that is wrecking our homeschool relationship.  She was doing Saxon 3 and it was starting to outpace her.  The other problem with Saxon is that past Saxon 3, it would require her to write out problems which would take her forever to do.  ADD along with a perfectionist side means that if she has to write out problems, math will take longer than her tolerance for it would last.

 

I tried switching to Rod and Staff math 3 and having her write in the textbook.  She has the ability, but I think the number of problems is getting to her.  Yes, I could just limit the problems, but just seeing all those problems even knowing she doesn't have to do them all is immediately overwhelming and discouragement sets in.

 

No diagnosis here, but my oldest has some ADDish symptoms (along with dyslexic symptoms) - and she has a hard time concentrating with too many problems on a page, regardless of how hard they are.  Part of it for her is that she needs a lot of white space to write her answers - and she needs to *feel* like she has plenty of white space.  It's worse when the problems are also hard for her; she has trouble with SM Intensive Practice, because it combines harder problems with smaller type and less space to write the answers - it's like a perfect storm for locking up (and she's good at math, but perfectionistic). 

 

But even perfectly doable problems become difficult for her when they are too tightly packed together.  I looked up R&S 3 - there were 35 problems on a page - it's laid out cleanly but it's still a lot more tightly packed than dd9 could handle.  (For comparison, the SM workbook doesn't have more than 9-12 on a page, and even the dreaded intensive practice doesn't have more than 20.)  And she's got a bad habit of doodling on the page whenever her attention wanders (and it wanders more the more difficult the task), which adds visual clutter and makes it that much harder to concentrate. (and so increases the amount of doodling).  You can tell which pages she has trouble with, because they are the ones that have doodles filling up every spare space (and encroaching on needed space). 

[Ravin]

I was pretty much where you are when my DD was your age. What I did didn't work. Ronit Bird is a good suggestion.

[HomeAgain]

MUS offers 3 and 3, (possibly 3 and 4 now?): 3 new material, 3 old.  They also have worksheet generators on their website.

[Caviar]

I was going to recommend CLE also, as someone did above.  It is not mastery based as MUS is.  It is spiral.  And, as the above person stated, you an skip those questions, for the day, that you know she knows, and just have her do what she needs work on.  For us, math is the one subject that does get done everyday!

[...................]

I would just say that your daughter's confusion with numbers seems a little out of the normal range. Nothing to freak out about but perhaps something to consider.

 

I think Horizons would not be a good fit...my dd uses it for 6 years so ...it moves very very fast and makes a lot of leaps of logic without slowly working up to it.

 

I would definitely try Math U See. I know several friends that use it even with special needs kids and have great success and I also know one gifted boy who used it and had a great foundation. If your child needs to use it, don't worry about the weird sequence. That's the last thing I would be concerned about. :)

[RKWAcademy]

When one of my six year olds couldn't grasp addition (we were finishing Singapore 1a but she retained nothing), I moved her to MUS Alpha.  I don't love it and don't think it's complete, but it really helped her.  I think it had a lot of review.  Definitely more than we do with Singapore.  I still used Singapore with her for money, time, etc in 1st grade.  She's finished MUS Alpha and I'm just going over some Singapore 1B that she seems to have no trouble with now.  I'm not sure what we'll do next - either MUS Beta or Singapore 2A or MM 2A (I have it all). 

[mamamindy]

 

 

Singapore:  I've been thinking about this a lot for some reason - but, I feel like this would get over her head quickly because she is so dependent upon manipulatives still.  She needs constant review.  I used this with two of my kids and the lack of review built in was a definite problem.

 

 

Well, I have one DD with ADD, and one DD that's a perfectionist.  Singapore math has worked well for them.  We do work "behind" grade level.  I'm fine with this - it's really challenging math IMO.  We also use cuisenaire rods extensively.  Even when my daughter "gets it", sometimes she still liked them sitting on the table.  I'm okay with that.

 

I definitely like that there aren't so many problems for each exercise in SM.  We work a lot of the textbook problems orally, and I make sure to give her short lessons.  She just can't focus for longer than 15- 20 min at a time.  Later in the morning/day she'll work the workbook on her own.  I run the IP books 1 semester behind as well - this is great for review, and the challenge problems are more appropriate at this time.  This is my opinion, of course. ;)

 

This doesn't really answer your curriculum query...but we recently added Bedtime Math (found it at the library!) to our evening routine, and it's given my girls a real boost and application for all that hard work in math.  Just wanted to throw that out there.

 

Hope you find something that works for your gal! :)

[HSmomof2]

Another vote for Math U See. My ds struggled much like your dd throughout elementary math. I finally decided to try Math U See this year for prealgebra. He is doing so, so much better. I wish I had switched him to it earlier. I haven't seen the set up of the elementary books, but ds has a video lesson, three lessons on that topic, three lessons reviewing topics covered in earlier lessons, then an honors lesson that is all word problems. It's working well for him when nothing else has.

[Tsuga]

Her issues sound uncommon. I agree that this may be a deeper issue. You might be researching charters but it sounds like you're doing her a huge service by homeschooling so you can take it at her pace. The number line thing is unusual at that age. Good luck.

[mamamoose]

My ds is dyslexic and adhd and Horizons freaked him out! Soooo busy and way too many problems per page! He literally couldn't have cared less that he only had to do one problem, he couldn't get beyond the fact there was so much going on. We use right start, but because he sees through the games and hates playing them, I bought some mammoth math work texts for extra practice. Those aren't nearly as busy and seem to give us an extra angle.

Edited March 23, 2016 by mamamoose

[shinyhappypeople]

Could she have dyscalculia?

 

Honestly, I would not press forward right now.  She seems to be needing help with subitization skills.  You could look at the Ronit Bird e-books and books to try and solidify her subitization skills first.   (linked below)

http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/#ebook1

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:

 

OP, your DD's struggles don't sound within the range of normal for her age.  An educational eval would give you a ton of information. 

 

These Ronit Bird videos will give you a feel for her approach.

 

It will be *so much easier* for your daughter to hit the pause button now, shore up her number sense and then proceed. Maybe you could take the rest of the school year to work through RB activities, play games, and make sure her math foundation is super solid.  

 

Also, Right Start Math Games kit has some nice number sense games in the first chapter or two.