Thinking that Apples & Pears isn't working for us?

[alisoncooks]

Oldest DD (9.5/4th grade) has been using A&P for a couple of years.  We're approx. 1/3 through level B.

 

She does well during the lessons but does not seem to transfer to her free writing.  Right now, she's "writing a book" about her game play on her favorite app (Dog Simulator).  While I am thrilled that she is writing for fun, it seems every other word is spelled wrong.  And not just a little wrong but - :eek: - crazy wrong.  Sometimes she is able to spell words *closer* to correct or even correctly, if I clearly enunciate them for her (anoaver = another).  

 

Here's a sample:

I yell to my apoannent "What did the puppy ever do to you?!?"  I yell again "It's me you want, so come and get me!!!" That dosing do anything he kpeas fight us Owell just anoaver day in the recking ring - Ha! that rimes - kinda, ok not rilly. unvenchly he gives up

 

(Don't get me started on the punctuation...)

What do you think -- would you keep going with A&P? 

(To be fair, we have seen improvement over.  Perhaps it is unfair to expect the level of work during the lessons to immediately be visible in outside writing?)

 

Is there something else you would suggest for a struggling speller? 

[freesia]

It takes awhile for it all to come together. Writing takes organizing thoughts, fine motor skills, spacial skills, not to mention grammar and spelling and punctuation. For the not natural speller--spelling takes a lot of thought and would interfere with the story.

 

We are successful Apples and Pears users. For my older three we were into level C and around grade 5 before it came together more. And, to be honest, when ds10 is writing his book, his spelling leaves a lot to be desired. But when he retreads it, he catches a lot .

With a fourth grader, I would have her reread her writing ( for school not pleasure) and circle the words she thinks are misspelled and then have her try again.

 

I say stick with A and P, but realize she probably won't reach Spelling Bee level-but will improve to a good level.

[RootAnn]

Honestly, I didn't start seeing any carryover between spelling lessons & "real writing" until 12-13 years old. I don't have natural spellers & my kids work on spelling a LOT.

 

If it seems to be helping, I'd keep going. When they are doing their outside-schoolwork-writing, their brains are so busy with content that spelling, punctuation, & grammar fall by the wayside for some kids. It is just too much to keep in their head.

 

My dd#2 writes children's books. Her spelling has improved, but stares/stairs, where/were, and there/they're/their type things are a constant frustration for me, the editor. Some things we've worked really hard on this year in grammar - such as where to put punctuation in quotes and direct addresses are wrong in her real writing. I don't stress about it, because it is something she recognizes when she goes through and edits her own work. She is just too lazy to do it since Mom will always find more/most mistakes when she goes through it.  :crying:

[EmilyGF]

How frequently do you do Apples and Pears if you've been using it for a couple of years but are only 1/3 of the way through B?

 

I find that my kids do best with spelling daily, even if in 10-15 minute chunks. So DD7 is almost done with AAP A after 5 months.

 

Emily

[...................]

I would say to dramatically increase the frequency or amount of you A&P lessons. The entire series takes two years when done as intended. So I would say even at a half pace at 3.5 years you should be in level D. Nothing will work if it's not done frequently.

 

However I would also not worry because it all comes together after time and practice.

[alisoncooks]

How frequently do you do Apples and Pears if you've been using it for a couple of years but are only 1/3 of the way through B?

 

I find that my kids do best with spelling daily, even if in 10-15 minute chunks. So DD7 is almost done with AAP A after 5 months.

 

Emily

 

 

We do A&P 4x/week.  Five, if we are near the end of a lesson (ie. just sentences left to do on the next page).

 

Does your DD7 have struggles with reading/spelling?

It took us over a year to get through A&P A (started midway through 2nd grade).  Roughly 200 days when I went back and counted them up.  This daughter could not complete an entire lesson in a day, let alone an entire page (in the beginning, it was half a page a day).

 

Things are picking up now.  We still do spelling 4x a week, and she is able to do an entire page (1-side, so about 1/2 a lesson) in a sitting.

Edited March 19, 2016 by alisoncooks

[EmilyGF]

We do A&P 4x/week.  Five, if we are near the end of a lesson (ie. just sentences left to do on the next page).

 

Does your DD7 have struggles with reading/spelling?

It took us over a year to get through A&P A (started midway through 2nd grade).  Roughly 200 days when I went back and counted them up.  This daughter could not complete an entire lesson in a day, let alone an entire page (in the beginning, it was half a page a day).

 

Things are picking up now.  We still do spelling 4x a week, and she is able to do an entire page (1-side, so about 1/2 a lesson) in a sitting.

She had problems with reversals (of letters and entire words) and tracking Right-Left instead of Left-Write, but reading isn't a problem for her, though she guesses rather than sounds words out if they are long. 

 

She has no problem physically writing, she just wrote everything however she felt like it. She does half a lesson per day, now.

 

Emily

[alisoncooks]

How does she do reading aloud to you? Does she pronounce words properly? If you choose one or two of the words she spelled incorrectly, and ask her (in another context, so she doesn't feel like her story is being picked apart) to spell those words, does she do any better when concentrating just on the spelling? 

 

She reads aloud fairly well, probably at grade level.  When faced with a word that is unfamiliar & longer, she tends to say random, not-even-close words. (We are working through REWARDS Int. to help with decoding long words).

 

If I were to ask her how to spell "keeps" (which she spelled "kpeas" in her story), she would probably either say "k-e-e-p-s" or "k-e-a-p-s" -- she tends to pick the wrong vowel team when given a choice.   :glare:

 

**Just asked her and she said "k-p-e-e-s".  So I told her to sound it out again and she gave me "k-e-e-p-s."

[EmilyGF]

I wonder if you should post on the learning challenges board if you need to go that slowly.

 

That said, sometimes I think I've been really diligent at something only to realize that "we normally practice piano 6 days per week" but that often we forget to practice Friday, oh, and we were busy last Monday, and Saturday there was a party etc and that our "normal" practice schedule is really more like 4 days per week because every week is "special." 

 

If that isn't the case, maybe ask someone more specialized...

[TheAttachedMama]

We do A&P 4x/week.  Five, if we are near the end of a lesson (ie. just sentences left to do on the next page).

 

Does your DD7 have struggles with reading/spelling?

It took us over a year to get through A&P A (started midway through 2nd grade).  Roughly 200 days when I went back and counted them up.  This daughter could not complete an entire lesson in a day, let alone an entire page (in the beginning, it was half a page a day).

 

Things are picking up now.  We still do spelling 4x a week, and she is able to do an entire page (1-side, so about 1/2 a lesson) in a sitting.

 

So how much time per day do you devote to spelling?  

 

I don't recommend that you push your daughter beyond her capabilities, but you might consider gently encouraging her to start completing an entire lesson per day.   My kids would probably both tell you that they couldn't write that much.   Just like they would say they were "too exhausted to clean their rooms".   :)   

 

However,  IMHO, most** 9.5 year olds should be capable of doing an entire lesson in one sitting.   For many kids, spelling takes a lot of practice.    (Especially with the way A&P teaches---it teaches by repeated copying which requires lots of writing.)   So my first piece of advice would be to start upping the amount of practice she is getting everyday.   My next piece of advice would be to analyze the words that she mispells.    I use a lot of the techniques that All About Spelling teaches to do this.   For example, I would have her VERY clearly segment the sounds of the word using pennies with a clear pause between each sound.  (AAS 1 has you bring down pennies as you make each sound.) Example: a-n-o-th-er.    or instead of kpeas, say k-ee-p-s

 

Just to give you a frame of reference, my slightly dyslexic daughter is 7.  (She will turn 8 next month).   She has been doing an entire A&P lesson per day for some time now.  She is about to start B.   

 

As far as punctuation transferring over to their writing, the BEST thing I have discovered is dictation.   I often modify their spelling dictation to include mechanics practice.  For example, I first teach them how to punctuate a direct quote at the end of the sentence.    THEN, I modify every spelling sentence for days and days to be a quote at the end of a sentence so they have to practice that skill over and over again.   Next, I teach them how to do a quote at the beginning of the sentence.   And we practice that every day.  Then I add in some mixed review of quotes.  Eventually it becomes a deeply ingrained habit.  Then we move on to the next mechanic thing I want to cover.  But again, it takes lots of repetition and practice.   

 

 

----------------------------

 

**I say MOST 9.5 year old should be able to complete an entire lesson in one sitting.   However, some 9.5 year olds can not do that much writing.  Especially children who have fine motor delays or dysgraphia.   SO, if you suspect fine motor delays or dysgraphia, I would then suggest that you find other ways to practice spelling that does not involve the physical act of writing.   That way those issues don't become a road block to her progressing in this area.  For example, you could download and spell using a white board app, the AAS letter tiles, teach touch typing and have her type out her sentences, etc.   

Edited March 19, 2016 by TheAttachedMama

[forty-two]

She reads aloud fairly well, probably at grade level.  When faced with a word that is unfamiliar & longer, she tends to say random, not-even-close words. (We are working through REWARDS Int. to help with decoding long words).

 

If I were to ask her how to spell "keeps" (which she spelled "kpeas" in her story), she would probably either say "k-e-e-p-s" or "k-e-a-p-s" -- she tends to pick the wrong vowel team when given a choice.   :glare:

 

**Just asked her and she said "k-p-e-e-s".  So I told her to sound it out again and she gave me "k-e-e-p-s."

 

How does your dd do at the oral blending exercises in REWARDS?  My dd9 can do most of them fine, but sometimes has the worst time with one or two - keeps adding or subtracting a syllable, or mis-ordering syllables.  Her difficulty there had me do the Barton pre-screening with her, and she failed it but good, even though she was a fluent reader.  Failing it means she doesn't have the phonemic awareness to read phonetically - or spell phonetically, either.  So it's not surprising her spelling mistakes are non-phonetic, because she doesn't have the skills to apply her phonetic knowledge to spelling. 

 

Dd9 makes those same kind of non-phonetic errors (like "kpeas"), where she has a hazy visual memory of the letters involved but can't remember the order and her auditory processing is weak enough she can't/doesn't use it to help hear the order of the phonemes to aid her spelling.  So she just slaps down the letters in whatever order and hopes for the best.  She spells almost exclusively visually, only she doesn't pay enough attention to the individual parts of the word to be able to remember the details - she just remembers the beginning and end and the overall appearance.  To improve her visual memory for spelling, I've her mark all her copywork using Spelling You See's color-coded marking system (blue for multi-letter consonant phonograms, yellow for multi-letter vowel phonograms, green for y-as-a-vowel, purple for r-controlled vowels, green for silent letters, and pink/red for prefixes/suffixes; I added in brown for blends, because dd9 couldn't hear them), and that's made a big difference in helping her notice all the little details and how they fit into the whole word.  Just writing them wasn't enough to for her to *see* the details enough for them to stick in her memory.  And to improve her phonemic processing, I did some LiPS and I'm also doing a lot covert blending practice by having her spell in cursive the same words her little sister is learning to read.  (I write the words in sound pictures from Dekodiphukan (a free reading program) - basically they are written in a purely phonetic-yet-visual system - gives a visual representation of the sounds - and it forces her to sound out the word instead of read it by sight.)

Edited March 19, 2016 by forty-two

[freesia]

I have never, with any of my 3 who have used A&P, done more than 1/2 a lesson a day. I think that that is plenty of practice per day. It also makes the program last longer, and the repetition is good for non-natural spellers. I don't think I could take teaching an entire lesson a day. ACK! But every child is different. OP, just keep keeping on. If you are doing spelling 4 a week --1 page or 1/2 a lesson each of those days--for about 36 weeks a year, your efforts will pay off.

[Rosie_0801]

**I say MOST 9.5 year old should be able to complete an entire lesson in one sitting.   However, some 9.5 year olds can not do that much writing.  Especially children who have fine motor delays or dysgraphia.   SO, if you suspect fine motor delays or dysgraphia, I would then suggest that you find other ways to practice spelling that does not involve the physical act of writing.   That way those issues don't become a road block to her progressing in this area.  For example, you could download and spell using a white board app, the AAS letter tiles, teach touch typing and have her type out her sentences, etc.   

 

My dd has this problem too and I have her finger spell most of her spelling words. If she gets them incorrect, she has to physically write them down.

 

You're dealing with auditory processing problems? My dd has those too, but will use the strategy taught in the first book to think about "what is the first sound in the word whatever? What is the second sound, in the word whatever? Etc."

[EmilyGF]

I have never, with any of my 3 who have used A&P, done more than 1/2 a lesson a day. I think that that is plenty of practice per day. It also makes the program last longer, and the repetition is good for non-natural spellers. I don't think I could take teaching an entire lesson a day. ACK! But every child is different. OP, just keep keeping on. If you are doing spelling 4 a week --1 page or 1/2 a lesson each of those days--for about 36 weeks a year, your efforts will pay off.

Definitely. But 1/2 lesson per year would have OP almost done with the series, not just in the first 1/3 of B. That's what might be concerning.

 

Emily

[alisoncooks]

With a fourth grader, I would have her reread her writing ( for school not pleasure) and circle the words she thinks are misspelled and then have her try again.

I say stick with A and P, but realize she probably won't reach Spelling Bee level-but will improve to a good level.

 

Good idea, thank you. I'm definitely looking for functional, not Spelling Bee. :) My DH has awful spelling (perhaps undiagnosed LDs, but he can get by).

 

 

Honestly, I didn't start seeing any carryover between spelling lessons & "real writing" until 12-13 years old. I don't have natural spellers & my kids work on spelling a LOT.

 

If it seems to be helping, I'd keep going. When they are doing their outside-schoolwork-writing, their brains are so busy with content that spelling, punctuation, & grammar fall by the wayside for some kids. It is just too much to keep in their head.

 

 

Thank you, it's helpful to "see" how this has played out for others. As long as it kind of clicks, eventually, I can push through for a few more years. :p

 

I don't recommend that you push your daughter beyond her capabilities, but you might consider gently encouraging her to start completing an entire lesson per day.   My kids would probably both tell you that they couldn't write that much.   Just like they would say they were "too exhausted to clean their rooms".   :)   

This is worth exploring. She can probably handle more than I give her...

 

How does your dd do at the oral blending exercises in REWARDS?

  

She does really well with them. I do think what you described sounds like DD -- the hazy visual memory and just making a guess as to what letters to throw down. I've wondered if she would do bette with a more visual/word families-based program.

 

OP, just keep keeping on. If you are doing spelling 4 a week --1 page or 1/2 a lesson each of those days--for about 36 weeks a year, your efforts will pay off.

 

Thanks for the encouragement!

 

 

You're dealing with auditory processing problems? My dd has those too, but will use the strategy taught in the first book to think about "what is the first sound in the word whatever? What is the second sound, in the word whatever? Etc."

I don't know exactly what we're dealing with, but I've wondered if it's an auditory processing issue...

[Tanaqui]

I yell to my apoannent "What did the puppy ever do to you?!?"  I yell again "It's me you want, so come and get me!!!" That dosing do anything he kpeas fight us Owell just anoaver day in the recking ring - Ha! that rimes - kinda, ok not rilly. unvenchly he gives up

 

Well, this is readable. I can see what she's trying to say, and many of the words she's missing are words I wouldn't expect most children her age to have at the tip of their fingers - opponent, eventually, rhymes, wrecking. Even "rilly" is a common slangy spelling of really, the sort of thing she might have picked up without realizing it's nonstandard.

 

However - and I'm an amateur looking at this, so take this with a grain of salt - I'm a little concerned with "dosing" and "kpeas". Those are fairly common words, and kpeas looks like she gave up on trying to make it make sense and just threw together some letters she thought belonged there. You say you've considered it may be an auditory processing issue. I suppose it may be any number of things. It might be time to look into a formal assessment. Even if there's nothing wrong, at least you'd know for sure.

[sixpence1978]

Well, this is readable. I can see what she's trying to say, and many of the words she's missing are words I wouldn't expect most children her age to have at the tip of their fingers - opponent, eventually, rhymes, wrecking. Even "rilly" is a common slangy spelling of really, the sort of thing she might have picked up without realizing it's nonstandard.

 

However - and I'm an amateur looking at this, so take this with a grain of salt - I'm a little concerned with "dosing" and "kpeas". Those are fairly common words, and kpeas looks like she gave up on trying to make it make sense and just threw together some letters she thought belonged there. You say you've considered it may be an auditory processing issue. I suppose it may be any number of things. It might be time to look into a formal assessment. Even if there's nothing wrong, at least you'd know for sure.

 

:iagree:

 

My DD has moderate dyslexia, showing up mainly in areas of spelling.  We started A&P nearly 6 years ago and are just now about to finish book D.  We have some dysgraphia going on here as well, so we've been doing a pace of 1 page a day 4-5 days a week, but also taking summers off.  Don't let the slow pace disturb you.

 

It wasn't until we were about 1/2 way through book C that I noticed a huge jump in spelling for us.  And there are still words that A&P doesn't really teach that we are going to have to learn after we finish book D.

 

That being said, those few words that are very non-phonetic in spelling do somewhat show a possible auditory processing problem.  Have you ever given your daughter the readiness test from the Barton website to see how she does with phonemic activities?  If not, that might be a good place to start. 

 

[sbgrace]

We did half a lesson a day through the entire program. I never did an entire lesson. Maybe my kids could have, toward the end, but it would have been with duress and checking out. I needed my weak speller attending the whole time we did the lesson. I do think you're moving quite a bit slower than typical. But I think consistent, attentive work is more important that quantity.

 

Some of her sample is concerning. My son had tons of spelling errors, but was generally phonetic.

 

I am thinking a few things. First, she's not far in the program. Second, she's young and spelling in writing particularly for a lot of kids clicks in later. It did here. If she's retaining the spelling she's learning within her Apples and Pears lessons, I'd be less concerned. I switched spelling, to Apples and Pears, because my son wasn't retaining even within the actual program we were using.

 

If she's not retaining even within Apples and Pears, and maybe even if she is, I think I'd consider seeking professional evaluation. If you know what you're dealing with, it will be easier to target appropriate remediation or accommodation.

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by sbgrace

[BusyMom5]

I am 1/2 way through book C with a 5th grader, and am seeing a LOT of progress just in the last few months.  I think it might help to do a little more per day and be really consistent with the lessons.  Instead of a set amount, maybe do a timer w/ 20 minutes and see how much you can get done each day.  The lessons w/ 9 sections are really long, but there are a lot now with just 6 sections and those are much easier to get done in one day.  I tell my DD no more than 20 minutes and we will stop.  Her spelling while doing free writing will most likey take a long time to improve, so I"d consider what she is doing in her spelling lesson only right now.

[Chelli]

I would say it is working.

 

The words that she spelled correctly are the ones that she would have covered in the amount of A&P you've completed.

 

Almost all the words she misspelled are word you haven't reached yet for the most part other than keeps and really. 

 

I do agree that consistency is the key. They really need to try to do a half lesson a day. My oldest is finishing up A&P this year and while she'll never be a great speller, she is at a place where it transfers to her writing 90% of the time and the words she misspells are becoming less and less. 

[Soror]

- I think several of the misspellings are words that haven't been covered yet in A&P (at the level you are at) so I wouldn't sweat that

 

- it sounds like to me you are consistently working on it- I'd not push to do more we are nearing the end of C here and my son is almost 11y8m, we've done it consistently but he is generally not a fast worker and his handwriting is harder for him

 

- it might be good to keep it in your mind to consider an eval- perhaps it was just her hurrying. FWIW I'm starting to see things come together for my son here 2yrs later but he still makes those crazy mistakes sometimes- I was just re-reading some of his writing to him this week and he said, "Oh, man I totally screwed it up." We will be working on learning to edit a very long time I think.

[alisoncooks]

Thanks again for all the thoughts/responses!
I am not opposed to having her tested -- I just have no money to get it done.  Maybe that's another thread to start, LOL.  How to get tested when there's no money for private testing...  (ie. Scottish Rite will to LD testing for $50, but if the child is over 8, they require an IQ test first...)

 

I have looked more at her writing.  It's not that bad, but the errors do concern me because it does seem she's either 1) not hearing the actual sounds in the word or 2) just guessing from a visual memory of the *look* of the word.

Here's her most recent paragraph:

 

​I give each puppy who was invoved a smoll wack.  But they keep it up. I sigh and drive them out of the dog house.  then I realize that I can't braik it up, then I realize that whith each over they are a strong little wolf pack if they ever stop fighting

 

She's also not consistent because I found where she has used "anather" for "another" which is much closer than what she did before.  And she spelled "keep" correct here.  I also know that if I asked her how to spell "all" she could correctly fix "small."

 

If anyone has experience testing (how did you get started, with whom?, did you go through the public school system?) feel free to share that!  I have continued to put it off, since I was certain that *once she was reading* then the rest of LA would fall into place.

Edited March 20, 2016 by alisoncooks

[FO4UR]

I have a few thoughts.

 

#1 - You are in the first half of Level B.  Just keep going. 

 

#2 - Consider going back and repeating things and doing extra review.  An easy way to review is to go back to Book A and dictate those sentences again.  Any words missed will be orally reviewed before the regular lesson.  If she misses a ton of words, repurchase Book A and do it again.

 

#3 - I'd recommend doing doing a beefy review as in point #2, and HALF of a new lesson per day.  The amount of writing isn't the issue.  A brain that struggles can only be pushed so far before shutting down. If you haven't had a dyslexic child, that might sound like coddling or excuse making...it isn't...you want to maximize efficiency which involves more review so that you hold onto words already learned and it means introducing new things slowly so they have more brain space to take hold.

 

#4 - The Essentials in Spelling that I reformatted began as a result of having done SWR and A&P and ds STILL not retaining any spelling.  His spelling was way worse than the samples you posted.  Teaching him is a matter of teaching explicitly and reviewing frequently. Essentials has 2 new words per day.  That said, A&P will get a child spelling at an adult level much faster if that child can hack the pace.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2016 by 4blessingmom

[freesia]

Also remember that A&P is was written for dyslexic kids in Britain. So, even if she does have dyslexia it's the right program to use with her.