Kid relationships (kind of long)

[Carrie12345]

I’m trying to figure out how to teach my kids something I haven’t even figured out how to put into words yet.  A situation a while back has left me wondering if I handled it well enough, and what I can do and say in the future to help my kids best.

 

We’ve always taught and reminded our kids to be kind to others, to not be clique-y, reach out to new people, accept differences, look for commonalities, and all that jazz.  When they’ve felt left out or rejected, we’ve comforted them and directed them toward other activities/people, etc.  Even with siblings, we’ve made sure they understand their brothers’ and sisters’ attention doesn’t “belong†to them. (Fortunately, they do willingly spend time together, just not always when it’s asked for.)

 

But I’m starting to see incidents, primarily with my tween/teens, in which other parents seem to want me to intervene, in friendships and in crushes.  There’s no way I’m going to do that, but I did bring the issue up to my kids, basically telling them they could choose who they wanted to spend time with, but that I always expect them to be kind about it.

 

I thought it was the perfect response, but now I’m not so sure.  I’m seeing one of my kids spending a lot more time with people I know she hadn’t been wanting to hang out with before, including an unrequited “crush†I know she’s not comfortable with.  I never intended for “kind†to mean putting up with unwanted attention.

 

It does have me thinking about how we grow into adults who slog through relationships we don’t want or aren’t good for us out of obligation.  We’re expected to be kinder to others than ourselves, and we know we’re not supposed to hurt people’s feelings.  That isn’t something that just popped into our heads overnight when we turned 18 or 21 or 35.  It’s something we “know†well before the new crazy neighbor brings cookies or the guy at the bar buys a drink.  Even if we tell ourselves we’re not obligated to engage, we don’t want to be “rudeâ€... or worse words.

 

I don’t want my kids (on either side of the equation) to fall into that trap.  Honestly, I thought I was a good enough example of not falling for it, but I’m realizing I’m really not!  I don’t say no enough.  I obligate myself to other people when I don’t want to.  Maybe not in the biggest ways I’m concerned for, but it ways they certainly see.

 

I want to believe I’m not the only one trying to figure all this out, but I haven’t found anything online that gets into this issue.  It’s all about parents wanting to make kids be friends, and grown women trying to shake unwanted attention.  Which, frankly, seems to illustrate the problem, imo.  

Where are all the studies and articles about cultivating healthy, happy, mutual childhood relationships???

[Bluegoat]

There is a pretty fine line there though, at least IMO.

 

I mean, there are people I don't especially enjoy hanging out with, and I do occasionally out of a kind of obligation, and I actually probably should more.  Crazy people, lonely people.

 

My feeling is that to a large extent it is personal experience that helps people see better where to set boundaries and where to be self-giving.  I'm not sure you can pass that wisdom on in the way you would like to, there isn't a good algorithm, and different people, including our kids, might come to different conslusions than we do.

 

THe best might be to give solid advice about options or perspective for handling particular situations they are having trouble with.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Bluegoat

[zoobie]

One of the things I really liked about Montessori primary was how they taught the kids to decline working or playing with a classmate. "No thank you" was sufficient, and it wasn't seen as a slight. I thought it was pretty empowering for them, and I have tried to continue that philosophy.

[gardenmom5]

the one thing I'm seeing/not-seeing -is do they listen to their gut?  re: gaven de becker "the gift of fear".  when kids are always told to be nice etc. etc. - they get drilled into them to ignore their instincts,  and they NEED to learn to hear it, and listen to it.

[school17777]

I understand what you are saying. I have told my girls that I expect them to be kind to a boy if he were to ask them out to homecoming or something, even if they don't want to go with him. They have seemed to interpret that to as me saying I want them to say yes to the boy to be kind, even though they don't want to. That's not what I mean at all. If they aren't interested, they need to say no, but nicely.

[Carrie12345]

Great thoughts! Thanks for the input!

 

I did discover that changing the terms I use from "friends" and "relationships" to "boundaries" brings up a lot more stuff!
https://www.kidpower.org/library/article/teen-boundaries/

[NorthwestMom]

I totally understand this problem. One thing I have noticed is that while we are telling our kids certain pro-social messages, like "try to include everyone in your game at recess", "Jane needs a friend, can you reach out to her?", etc, in adulthood we often do the opposite.

 

Example: Adults will strategically fill the available seats in their car so that the woman who brags continuously about her children can't fit in the carpool. "Sorry! We're full! Next time!" and we will congratulate ourselves for handling the situation; simultaneously, in grade school, their children will strategically pick teams for soccer at recess trying to avoid having the kid who cries and accuses literally everybody of cheating when they don't like how the game is going, and the same moms will cluck and pressure their kids to "Include Jane, she wants to play too." The adults are still excluding the "mom who wants to play", just in a more sophisticated way than their kids are handling the same situation!

 

All that to say, I think it is human nature to want to spend time with some people and avoid others. The key is to maintain your own set of boundaries, and for our kids, they need a lot of relational practice to get good at it (and it seems a lot of us adults are NOT good at it. It must be an advanced skill). Carrie12345, it sounds like you and your kids are doing a good job and are on the right track. I think I would check in regularly with the one spending time with kids she's not so fond of, and try to provide a listening ear and some support for increasing boundaries, if the child wants to do that.

 

I also think a supremely important, adult emotional skill is the ability to function acceptably well in the face of conflict, and putting up boundaries that others don't like can create conflict. Avoiding others' negative emotions by just doing what they want is not a healthy strategy; being able to tolerate others' disappointment and anger when you sometimes put your own needs first is a wonderful ability.

 

Finally: the moms who want to intervene in their tweens' and teens' social conflicts: Ugh! No! Unless there is actual danger - NO. I coach my own kid's responses if they want help. I DO NOT get involved with moms calling moms trying to work out why Emma, Madison, and Hailey weren't speaking at Girl Scouts, and what can we do about it?!? Ain't nobody got time for that.

 

If people find articles about all of this I would be very interested too!

[Squawky Acres]

I love that Montessori teaching about "no thank you" being sufficient.  I wonder, too, exactly how to impart that wisdom I have now as an adult that I can (politely) decline to spend a lot of time with people I don't like.  I don't know when I realized this, but it was actually a revelation to me!  My well-meaning and very kind parents taught me to be so kind and so sensitive to the underdogs that I found myself attracting all sorts of unwanted attention from very needy people, which did not leave much time for cultivating healthy relationships.  

 

Maybe you can explain it in terms of intentionally choosing our friends, and spending time cultivating these relationships.  Certainly, one should be polite and kind -- but your kids' time is precious, and needs to be spent with friends of their choosing.

 

I would have a very pointed discussion with my daughter about the unrequited crush.  Unwanted male attention is another matter entirely, and she should not spend any time with someone who makes her uncomfortable.  Have her read the "Gift of Fear."  It is particularly dangerous to be especially kind to needy/unstable boys who do not take no for an answer.

[clementine]

Oh, yes.  We have been in that same place.  We have taught our girls to be kind, reach out to the lonely & include them at church, and be an approachable person (when appropriate).  

 

That said, there have been boys who have taken that kindness as interest.  There have been girls who want more of a friendship than is actually wanted.  This year we have been slowly working the word 'no' into situations so that they don't turn into obligations.  THAT is something I wish I would have learned as a teenager.  

 

I truly believe that kindness is becoming a lost art in teens and young adults.  Patience in making conversation with someone who you do not consider a friend can make someone's day.  Kindly distancing themselves when they need to create a boundary is an important skill.  Hanging out with someone out of a feeling of obligation is the wrong reason to do so.  Let them ask themselves, "Am I doing this for the right reason?"  

 

 

[Kiara.I]

Boundaries and kindness don't need to be mutually exclusive.

 

It needs to be an ongoing conversation, I think, that is multi-faceted.

So, for instance:

- Are your instincts telling you to STAY AWAY?  Then do.

- If not, is it just that the person isn't "your type" so you don't like them?  Maybe consider whether this is a time to show kindness.

- Is a person making demands on you that you don't want to fulfill?  Is it a time to show kindness?  Or is it a time when "kind" would actually take away that person's responsibility for their own actions and a boundary would be more appropriate?

 

Because there are times to inconvenience yourself for kindness, to stretch far beyond what you're comfortable with to befriend the outcast, to help the oppressed. And there are times to set boundaries so that you no longer take on what should be the responsibility of the other person that they're trying to offload on you.

[NorthwestMom]

I found this: http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2014/04/11/helping-your-kids-set-boundaries/

[Acadie]

I love Brene Brown's free Anatomy of Trust minicourse--you need to sign up but there's no charge, and it's well worth it. I felt like it helped me enormously in thinking about my adult relationships and how to talk to my girls about their developing teen and preteen relationships. Her BRAVING acronym is a great way to check in with ourselves about whether we're acting with integrity and also a lens to explore whether other people's actions are building or breaking down our trust in them.

 

http://www.courageworks.com/shop/classes/the-anatomy-of-trust

 

Great thread--I think these are lifelong conversations we're beginning with our kids!

 

Amy

[SKL]

I tell my kids over and over:  you don't have to be friends with everyone, but you do have to respect everyone.  Also, it is OK to just walk away if you don't like the way someone is behaving toward you.  Also:  you can't please everyone.

 

This is an area where kids do need to make their own mistakes and learn from them.  Also, what is right for them is going to be different from what would be right for us.

 

My kid has a "frenemy" at school, and I used to wonder why she couldn't just let the girl down gently and move on.  Then one day the girl confided in my daughter that a family member was engaging her in unwanted sexual activity.  That explained a lot, and I decided that there must be a reason why my kid should be "friends" with this other girl.  My daughter's judgment turned out to be better than mine.

 

I remember, from my own youth, some relationships that looked quite unwholesome from the outside; yet I was the only friend and confidante those people had, so I felt right sticking with them.  I don't regret it.

[lllll]

nm

Edited November 15, 2016 by cathey

[Chris in VA]

I think kind and nice are two different things. Nice is fake.

Over nice is dangerous.

 

Movie spoiler...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Room, a wonderful movie about a kidnapped young woman, there is a devastating scene where the young woman tells her mom that if she hadn't been taught to be nice to everyone, she might not have been kidnapped. IOW, she had ignored her inner intuition/gift of fear to help a guy find his dog. It was food for thought.

[NorthwestMom]

 Nice is fake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has never occurred to me. Why is nice fake?

[Chris in VA]

Well, I mean as contrasted with kind. I'm talking about the sort of plastic nice with the fakey polite attitude, vs genuine kindness.

[monstermama]

One of the things I really liked about Montessori primary was how they taught the kids to decline working or playing with a classmate. "No thank you" was sufficient, and it wasn't seen as a slight. I thought it was pretty empowering for them, and I have tried to continue that philosophy.

 

Oh gosh, yes.  During the second or third preschool drop-off, when DS was having a hard time separating from me, one of the classroom aides asked him, "Don't you want to go in and play with your friends?"  Lady, he's spent a total of 3 hours with these kids, so I highly doubt he's "friends" with any of them yet.

[MysteryJen]

Kindness is genuine. Nice is often fake. Especially in tween and early teen girls. We have seen quite a lot of bad behavior this year, and one of the biggest problems we had to deal with was the supposedly "nice" girls unable to stand up to the mean girl about anything.

Everyone can be polite. You do not "have" to be friends with everyone. It is perfectly fine to disengage from a group. It is not okay to silently participate in a shunning of another person.

 

Unwanted attention from a boy should be addressed firmly and directly. And unwanted attention from a girl should be addressed by the boy in the same way.

[freesia]

It is so hard. At one point I realized I was pressuring my son to be kind to someone who had some special needs. Then I stepped back from my desire for him to be kind and inclusive and realized that this boy had been acting in verbally and physically abusive ways to my son. What was I teaching him? I still don't know how to manage this, at all. My heart hurts when kids are left out, but what if they are left out b/c they are difficult to be with and hurtful? I certainly don't surround myself with so called toxic people--isn't it wrong to teach my kids to do so?

[shawthorne44]

Maybe if you list some examples in which it is OK to stop being kind, or not being kind in the first place.  Maybe something like

 

1. When your gut tells you something is off.   Gift of Fear type thing
2. When they won't take a kind No.
3. When they behave in a hurtful way to you.   In this case, you don't have to be hurtful back but you don't have to tolerate their presence either.  

I remember a boy at college stalked me for a few weeks after I was merely nice to him in a 5 minute small talk conversation.   Fortunately, since his fixation trigger was so short, it didn't take long of my avoiding him and refusing to return his smile until he changed fixations.  Unrelated to me, he later entered the satellite of friendship circle, and I warned my two closest friends to not talk to him or even return his smile.   My friends criticized me for being mean.  They both later told me I was right all along because they both experienced the same thing.  

 

 

[zoobie]

Oh gosh, yes. During the second or third preschool drop-off, when DS was having a hard time separating from me, one of the classroom aides asked him, "Don't you want to go in and play with your friends?" Lady, he's spent a total of 3 hours with these kids, so I highly doubt he's "friends" with any of them yet.

I think "friends" is pretty common terminology for the other kids in the class at that age. Two different Montessoris and a church preschool have called classmates "friends." It does have a positive, cooperative connotation. Also more inviting than "these random children here in this room." ;)

[Guest]

I actually have no idea how to put distance between myself and a pesky/annoying/unlikeable other mom. I am chronically nice, lol! I mean, for real - what mom is going to say, "Oh, Jane, shut up already! Every time you come worm into our conversation, it's only to brag about your superstar kid." It's just difficult to break free from someone who isn't actually nasty, but is just not someone you want to become friends with or be around.

[catz]

I haven't read all the responses.  This is a hot button issue for me.  I was definitely taught to be kind to the point of letting people walk all over me as a teen and young adult.  I had a lot of work to do to lay down healthy boundaries so I could have healthy adult relationships.  I am now super picky about the relationships I invest time in.  Friendships and relationships are 2 way streets and it's no one's responsibility to just give and give and give and expect nothing back indefinitely.

 

I suspect some people wouldn't approve that I tell my kids they don't have to be friends with everyone.  But adults aren't friends with everyone.  I emphasize being respectful and not sharing events in front of kids that aren't included.  Some settings do require inclusive behavior like group classes.  But I do not make my kids bend over backwards to include kids they have nothing in common with.  I want my kids to be follow their instincts in terms of having healthy boundaries.  I do talk to them about children with special needs and differences and how to be kind and inclusive with them in appropriate ways.  I also think it's fine to say to back away from someone you aren't comfortable with.

 

As an aside, my kids have ended up much more outgoing and confident than I was at their age and I think part of that comes from giving them much more autonomy in this regard.   I don't force physical contact with relatives either.  If you want to hug grandma, great.  If you don't, fine.  It's your body and your choice.

[Pam in CT]

Echo the Gift of Fear, the only parenting book I ever asked my husband, who doesn't so much go for such things, to read.  Also echo the distinction between kindness and "nice."  A little hard to define but definitely there.

 

 

With my kids, I've always used the image of a Force Field, lol.  Be courteous and respectful to all, but be conscious of your force field and don't allow anyone any closer than you're comfortable with.  Amp it up if you have to.  

[DawnM]

I had to have a long conversation with my 10th grader this year.  He is very kind to everyone and tries to get along with all.   A situation came up this year when he went to school.  One of the carpool kids has relationship issues and was very upset when my son made new friends and those friends didn't really want him hanging out with them because he wasn't nice to them.  So, this kid started hitting my kid!  Daily.  He would come up to him, slap him in the head and say, "I don't like you!"

 

My son kept trying to be nice to him but it went on for a month before I found out!  

 

I had to tell him that he does NOT EVER have to put up with abuse!  And he SHOULD never put up with it!

 

It was dealt with. I  called the parents and the kid got into huge trouble.  I also spoke to the kid directly and told him that as a school counselor I know how this works and I could get his butt in a HUGE amount of trouble with the school and the law.  I also told him that if I heard wind of him verbally or physically bullying anyone in the school at all, I would not hesitate to report it AND bring up this previous incident.

 

He no longer talks to me and he is in our carpool!  :lol:   He says, "yes ma'am" and "thank you" daily and that is about it.

 

To one of the other carpool moms he is a little twit and tells her her car is old, her house isn't as nice as his, she needs a new car, etc.....

 

Some people do not know how to be nice.

[NorthwestMom]

Good job DawnM!