Stick with MUS or switch to Right Start (x-post)

[sweetpea3829]

Folks...

 

DD10 has been using MUS through Gamma level.  She has a LD diagnosis of dyscalculia, poor number sense (but much better than it was) and poor reasoning/critical thinking skills.  

 

She has made decent progress with Math U See.  She can do the computations and I have been pleased overall.  But...she is not making many strides in conceptual growth and I am concerned that, as we approach more complicated topics (division, fractions, decimals...I'm looking at you), DD will begin to falter in her procedural growth.  Her math foundation is so weak...I'm hesitant to continue building on it without going back and at least attempting to shore up those conceptual gaps.  Sure...she can add, subtract and multiply.  But it's still hard.  It's still taxing for her.

 

I have been considering a switch.  I hear that Right Start is a great program for kids that struggle with math.  But it's expensive and there's a strong possibility it will fail for her, as many other maths that we've tried for her.  

 

I have Singapore Math, but the cognitive flexibility it requires is still beyond her.  I have Math Mammoth and have been reviewing things like number bonds with her...and she can use some of those principles during a lesson, but not apply them on her own.  

 

I almost feel like we are at a crossroads here.  Continue on with what we've been doing and just keep shooting for the math she needs to survive adulthood.  

 

Or go back and work on conceptual stuff.  

 

She's in a good place, psychologically, with math right now.  She says she is good at math, which...is huge. But I see the future for her and I'm just not sure she has enough conceptual understanding to be successful with the next few levels of MUS.

 

Thoughts? 

[nature girl]

I pink-puffy-heart RS, and you're right it's fantastic for improving conceptual understanding, but you're also right that it's expensive for something you're not sure will work for her...And I think it might be difficult for a kid to make a switch from another program. Since its methods are different from MUS, she'd probably have to spend awhile on the beginning of RS-B, which is pretty basic, before moving on. Maybe picking up an Alabacus and the Games for Alabacus would be a less expensive way to try the program and give much of that same conceptual understanding?

 

Another thought...Have you considered Miquon? It's very inexpensive, and great at enhancing number sense and the understanding of calculations in a very different way, seeing what number bonds and multiples and larger numbers look like visually. (Although I'd just use it as a supplement at this stage, not the main program.) Even picking up a set of rods and doing the more advanced Education Unboxed videos might add something to her understanding of what the operations she's doing actually mean.

[PeterPan]

RS teaches short division for division, so you could just google that.  They introduce division as repeated subtraction, which is tedious but did work for my non-SLD dd.  For fractions, yes I like their hardwood fractions puzzle.  The rest wasn't particularly unique or astounding, iirc.  Decimals, same deal, don't recall anything lightning bolt.  RS is strongest at the lowest levels.  Actually, didn't Cotter write another level to fill in some of what was missing?  

 

The suggestion of Miquon is fine.  Personally, I'd just invest in more manipulatives and do those things more ways.  The RS place value cards are good, and I *think* I've seen place value cards for decimals.  You could get the RS fractions puzzle, etc.  Just bring these things on in to your MUS.

 

Fwiw, I used most of the RS levels with my dd, and sold off the new version of A I bought to use with my ds with SLD math.  It was just way too much, way too fast.  For him Ronit Bird is brilliant. If you're going to buy anything, I would buy books by Ronit Bird.  She's actually writing for dyscalculia.  

Edited March 18, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Hilltopmom]

We stopped MUS after division.

Gamma & delta were lost time for her, she needs spiral review so I was always adding it.

 

Now we're doing the TT workbooks together, mostly on the whiteboard. I miss the MUS layout though!- all that white space:)

 

I've decided to concentrate on basic math that she'll need for day to day life, for now... We take turns doing TT as remedial or life skills math. Really need to try some Ronit Bird though.

[sweetpea3829]

You know....I wish I could get ahold of some of the Ronit Bird books to preview.  I've looked at some of her samples and I just don't see how it would impact my particular daughter's needs.  She can subitize...she can correlate a quantity with a number symbol...etc.  It's not second-nature for her, but she can pull that information from her memory.  At this point, her weakness isn't really NUMBER...it's conceptual application and reasoning, if that makes sense.  The number sense weakness just adds a layer of complication.  

 

 

I will tell you....my daughter also needs that spiral review.  I think most kids do, even NT ones.  I was spending a lot of time tracking that spiral review down, because as you pointed out, the review in MUS isn't enough.  My DD needs constant, repetitive review, or she'll lose concepts.  

 

Last fall, I heard of Prodigy Math here on these forums, signed up and started my kids on it.  It has been great.  I can set assignments, targeting specific areas that need to be reviewed.  She enjoys playing the game and doesn't balk at "practicing math".  And when I don't set assignments, the game adjusts to the student's ability.  

 

I definitely recommend it for spiral review.  

[Heathermomster]

The second half of RB's book Overcoming Difficulties with Number teaches specific problem solving strategies for multiplication and division.  The first half of the book discusses specific math pre-skills required for multiplication.  RB also teaches a specific subtraction technique that is wonderful.  As a traditional math learner, some of the techniques felt strange to me.  Once I overcame my bias and employed RB techniques, we discovered that the techniques worked for DS.

 

Prior to working with DS, I read and used the book How the Brain Learns Mathematics by Sousa to guide me.  Another book that influenced me was one that was included in this kit.

 

With DS, I teach to mastery and add the spiral myself.  I also employ the RB techniques to whatever curriculum we are using at the time.  We also use graph paper, math mnemonics for procedure.  

 

I think the MUS fractions book is total tosh BTW.  I liked it initially; however, the first portion of the curriculum is dedicated to dividing fractions in a way that had no real life transference.  

[PeterPan]

Heathermomster, just to digress, how does RB handle fractions?  We haven't gotten there.  We're still in lowly C-Rods...  That's interesting that MUS fractions didn't click for your ds.  I know sometimes I want these fixes (go to x curriculum, all would be better!) and then I think NO, stay the course, you're making progress even if it doesn't look like someone else's.  And with ds, I think a lot of it is getting the language to connect to the math till the LANGUAGE means something.  For instance, to have "3 of those 3s" (like hand me three of those 3 rods) didn't make sense.  I keep trying to find little ways around the day where that happens, to plant that idea that we can talk about multiples of something.  I have NO CLUE how that's gonna work with division and fractions, lol.  It probably has ideas in TML.  We're just not there yet.  He slid into negative numbers and subtraction so nicely thanks to RB, I figure there's probably something equally slick that is going to make fractions/division/ratios make sense.  For him, the subtraction and negative numbers just totally clicked with one game.  It was really astonishing.  That's why I love RB so much, because her games seem to get right into the heart of what wasn't clicking and see here, if you could get this one concept you could build on it and get somewhere.  

 

Sweatpea, she has a free ebook and also samples of her games.  I think the toc for each book is online.  Heather is guiding your correctly on which book you'd be looking at.  RB's printed materials go all the way through your basic math.  The ebooks (Dots, C-Rods) are expansions of Toolkit.  If you're beyond those, then you're looking at Overcoming, like Heather says.  I know it's confusing for her to have so many books!  Resource is supplemental.

[Heathermomster]

RB doesn't handle fractions.  She only handles the four basic functions.  If the student doesn't understand their multiplication facts backwards and forwards, a student cannot effectively solve fraction problems. I don't really know of a good fraction program.  With DS, we just wash, rinse, and repeat.

[PeterPan]

Hmm, I'll have to think about that.  Someone was encouraging me to get some of the TOPS stuff like Lentil Science and Get a Grip and that those could, in a very hands-on way, make some math concepts click.  It's on my to do list.  He's finally mature enough that I think I could set them up at a station and have him do them.  And if we get the funding, it's something a provider could do with him.  I can't give a provider RB, lol.

Edited March 20, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[sweetpea3829]

I only have a sec...but

 

 

I have heard that TOUCH math is a good math program for kids with LDs.  It was suggested by the school department.  I looked into it but had already made the  financial commitment to MUS and TOUCH math is costly.  Plus...TOUCH math goes back to the premise that there's an issue with subitizing which...was an issue for DD but doesn't appear to be at this point.  

 

My point though is that I wonder how they handle fractions?  

 

For sure, my DD benefits from a visual approach.  USUALLY, if she is having a mental block with a problem, I only need to pull out the blocks and that can get her through it.  Usually.  

 

Really...there needs to be more research into dyscalculia and associated LDs.  

[1shortmomto4]

I've tried RS fractions - which you can purchase separately. It comes with cards for games, a larger chart that you put pieces on.  At first it was great and all was going splendidly (now I was using this for a VSL learner not my dyslexic - which after having used I would not consider it!) and then the lessons get into the 100s chart and some how they are to make a correlation to that hundred chart for the purposes of factoring and making simplifying the fraction into its lower terms.  I couldn't make the connections myself so we gave up.  I've moved on to a combination of BJU and Key to Fractions.  I've used MUS for my very dyslexic/short term memory challenged learner and it is the only thing that he has ever retained!  I know that it just seems somewhat monotonous to spend much of the year doing fractions but for kids that need a lot of exposure, repetitive course work, then MUS is why it works and is retained.  My older dd used the upper levels of MUS (another dyslexic/math phobic) and she placed high into her college math courses and went on to make As in them so MUS works despite the perceived easiness. 

 

I tend to think of selecting a math program like you select a car seat - you can buy the most expensive seat on the market, with all the bells and whistles, but if it doesn't secure tightly in your car then it is not going to do its job - keep the child safe - same with math.  (or course this is back when you had to use the "locking clip" on seat belts and it wasn't so easy back then.)  ;-)

 

[Heathermomster]

I would like to mention a calculator that DS used during the logic stage.  It is a TI-15 and is great for students that need help with fractions and to check their work.