Strange comment from Mormon friend

[Katy]

A Mormon friend of mine made a comment about not believing much of the teachings of Joseph Smith, but she stayed in her church because she liked it for the focus on service, living the faith, and in general believed the other teachings.  Until she said that I thought the whole basis of the religion was his teachings?

 

Can someone please explain this to me?  Is it common in the Mormon faith, or is she an exception?

[Daria]

I know plenty of people who raise their kids Christian, but don't personally believe that Jesus was the son of God.  They like the morality, and social connections, and structure that the church provides so they keep going, even after their own beliefs have changed.

 

I don't know any Mormons in the same situation, but I don't know that many Mormons. 

[Matryoshka]

I have a Catholic friend, who says she doesn't feel like she has to follow everything the pope pronounces (although I bet she's having an easier time with the current one than the last couple).

[Wabi Sabi]

I know a couple of Mormons who are unhappy with the church's stance on some issues and they don't necessarily believe in the church's teachings anymore, but they stay because of deep family and cultural ties to the community. 

[Amira]

I wouldn't say it's common, but I do know plenty of Mormons who are at church more for the cultural, social, and/or other non-doctrinal reasons.  Also, the only thing a Mormon is going to get asked about officially is whether they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet.  I've never been asked if I accept specific teachings of Joseph Smith.  That can leave a lot of room for interpretation. And there's a lot more to the LDS Church than just what Joseph Smith taught.

 

In my opinion, the LDS Church presents as a rather monolithic structure but there is more diversity of belief within the church than many people realize (including some Mormons).

Edited March 14, 2016 by Amira

[Guest]

I know a Catholic who doesn't believe in Confession and one that doesn't believe "all the Mary stuff". Such is life.

[Butter]

It kind of depends on what she means by teachings of Joseph Smith.  If she means that she doesn't believe him when he said the Book of Mormon is true, then it would be odd indeed.  Other stuff he said, not so much.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't know much about LDS and have only known 2 or 3 Mormons ever, but that's not at all uncommon among Catholics. My family and many families we knew were those kind of Catholics.

[GAPeachie]

I think this happens in many different religions.  It is very hard to separate the religion from the culture.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Can't say about that in particular, but I've met plenty of people who stick with a religion for the club membership aspect and not so much the details of the faith.

 

 

[QueenCat]

I know plenty of people who raise their kids Christian, but don't personally believe that Jesus was the son of God.  They like the morality, and social connections, and structure that the church provides so they keep going, even after their own beliefs have changed.

 

 

 

I know quite a few people like this too..... they view themselves as "cultural Christians" in a positive way.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I know quite a few people like this too..... they view themselves as "cultural Christians" in a positive way.

 

Yes, my MIL was upset we didn't have our kids baptized.  Not because she cares we don't believe in it, but because we have rejected the cultural tradition in the family. 

 

So we are going to hell AND lack culture.

 

If one is going to suck, might as well go all the way.  :lol:

[Guest]

I know plenty of people who raise their kids Christian, but don't personally believe that Jesus was the son of God. They like the morality, and social connections, and structure that the church provides so they keep going, even after their own beliefs have changed.

 

I don't know any Mormons in the same situation, but I don't know that many Mormons.

This is what I was going to say.

[gardenmom5]

A Mormon friend of mine made a comment about not believing much of the teachings of Joseph Smith, but she stayed in her church because she liked it for the focus on service, living the faith, and in general believed the other teachings.  Until she said that I thought the whole basis of the religion was his teachings?

 

Can someone please explain this to me?  Is it common in the Mormon faith, or is she an exception?

 

she's more an exception than the rule.  there's a subgroup who treat the church like a cafeteria.  they take what they like - and leave what the don't.  and some of them are quite open that the church should change its teaching to agree with them . . . .

 

eta: - I've seen the same type in mainline protestant churches too.  My brother has attended several over the years (he even attended a RC church with his dd) - for the "social interaction".  not becasue he actually believed any of it.  

Edited March 14, 2016 by gardenmom5

[catz]

I know many "cultural Catholics" that are like this too so it does not seem that odd to me at all. 

[Anne in CA]

I think it is especially common in LDS households. I am related to numerous Mormons who don't really believe in Mormonism per say, but believe in many of the values that Mormons uphold that are getting harder to find in mainstream Christianity. Also, Mormons stick together in a way that defies ordinary religion. That solidarity is very appealing to people. Especially people who move frequently, lol. 

[Lawana]

To answer your question directly, there is a minority of LDS who stay affiliated with the church despite not believing the Book of Mormon to be true, or sincerely disagreeing with various doctrinal positions, and I think that number is increasing.

 

I was raised in a large Utah Mormon family, with membership on both sides going back to the time of Brigham Young. Previous to my generation, the vast majority of family members were "true blue" believers, wholeheartedly endorsing the church in all aspects, accepting as they occurred policy and practice changes. My generation (39 siblings and first cousins) has seen a diversification of belief, ranging from the true blue to complete rejection (myself, three siblings and several cousins included) to those that consider themselves cultural Mormons. To us, Mormonism isn't merely a religion, but for the most part, the entirely of our culture. There is no separation between family, culture, and religion. Family gatherings are not church services, but religious topics are ubiquitous.

 

Many in my generation have given much thought and study to what we see as problematic in the LDS religion. The church has historically been quite secretive regarding its history, presenting for common consumption a whitewashed and sanitized version. I and some of my sibs/cousins have concluded that we cannot, with intellectual integrity, accept the truth claims based on what appears to be the actual history. Others do not seem to have any such problem. The Internet has been key in the dissemination of information about church history. And once truth claims are questioned, the rest can fall like a house of cards.

 

The LDS church has some excellent ways, when done as planned, of taking care of its (hetero, cisgendered) members, and conversely, the opportunities to serve can be extremely fulfilling. I can see the appeal of staying for that, as well as for strictly cultural reasons. To give it up is deeply painful, like ripping ones self asunder.

[Katy]

To answer your question directly, there is a minority of LDS who stay affiliated with the church despite not believing the Book of Mormon to be true, or sincerely disagreeing with various doctrinal positions, and I think that number is increasing.

 

I was raised in a large Utah Mormon family, with membership on both sides going back to the time of Brigham Young. Previous to my generation, the vast majority of family members were "true blue" believers, wholeheartedly endorsing the church in all aspects, accepting as they occurred policy and practice changes. My generation (39 siblings and first cousins) has seen a diversification of belief, ranging from the true blue to complete rejection (myself, three siblings and several cousins included) to those that consider themselves cultural Mormons. To us, Mormonism isn't merely a religion, but for the most part, the entirely of our culture. There is no separation between family, culture, and religion. Family gatherings are not church services, but religious topics are ubiquitous.

 

Many in my generation have given much thought and study to what we see as problematic in the LDS religion. The church has historically been quite secretive regarding its history, presenting for common consumption a whitewashed and sanitized version. I and some of my sibs/cousins have concluded that we cannot, with intellectual integrity, accept the truth claims based on what appears to be the actual history. Others do not seem to have any such problem. The Internet has been key in the dissemination of information about church history. And once truth claims are questioned, the rest can fall like a house of cards.

 

The LDS church has some excellent ways, when done as planned, of taking care of its (hetero, cisgendered) members, and conversely, the opportunities to serve can be extremely fulfilling. I can see the appeal of staying for that, as well as for strictly cultural reasons. To give it up is deeply painful, like ripping ones self asunder.

 

Thank you.  This is the sort of answer I was hoping for.  I realize that many other Christians embrace their religion for cultural reasons, and Catholics are mostly that way - most of my Catholic friends are cradle Catholics who either never deeply examined their faith or who remain Catholic for cultural reasons, not heart/spirit/intellectual ones, but the only other Mormons I've known well besides this friend have all been very serious about it. I was under the impression the whole seminary in high school for every boy, followed by two years as a missionary thing sort of led those not in agreement to leave early.

[Lawana]

Thank you. This is the sort of answer I was hoping for. I realize that many other Christians embrace their religion for cultural reasons, and Catholics are mostly that way - most of my Catholic friends are cradle Catholics who either never deeply examined their faith or who remain Catholic for cultural reasons, not heart/spirit/intellectual ones, but the only other Mormons I've known well besides this friend have all been very serious about it. I was under the impression the whole seminary in high school for every boy, followed by two years as a missionary thing sort of led those not in agreement to leave early.

Actually, IME, as many, if not more, leave later than earlier. (As a side point, high school seminary is for both genders, and young women also do serve missions, but not with the same 100% expectation as is for the guys.) At 18,19, 20, and 21, large numbers of young adults are still fully tied to strong cultural influences. Many do not have intellectual maturity and independence of thought until after serving missions and even much later.

[La Condessa]

It is not common, but not unheard of, either. I think you get some "lukewarm" members in every religion, though I have gotten the impression from my various non-Mormon Christian friends that this seems to be far more common in other denominations than among LDS. I have wondered at times why this is, if it is because LDS church membership requires a great deal, so those who do not really hold a committed belief to the doctrine are more likely to leave altogether? Just speculation. I have gotten the impression that it is more common in Utah, where it is dominant culturally, for those who are less certain of their beliefs to stick around.

[eternalsummer]

I don't know much about religion; I was raised largely without it.  We had a lovely set of Mormon missionaries visit us weekly for a few months and while I was not converted (it was a dead hypothesis for me) they did facilitate some pretty major spiritual/emotional changes in my life, for which I'm grateful.

 

I can see why you'd stay with Mormonism even if you didn't quite literally believe in the tablets of gold and the alternate history and etc.  For me, the cultural values, appreciation of large families, social support for traditional women's roles, strong community service spirit, etc. are all really attractive and if I were part of the community by default I'd find it hard to leave just because I no longer strictly believed in all of the specific *religious* aspects.

 

That said, my impression of mormons is that they have a slightly different way of relating to God than some other religions; the ones who visited us were quite insistent that if we just prayed, God would either tell us that the Book of Mormon was true or tell us that it was not true, and then we'd know.  I think (I could be 100% wrong) that for some other religions, God is not conceived of as speaking quite so directly and personally to each individual.

 

 

[goldberry]

There is a difference between those in a faith that have never deeply examined it, so may be more lackadaisical about shifting beliefs, and those who do investigate but may choose to remain somewhere because it as is close as they think they will get to the truth, and they want and need the support of fellowship.

 

My personal belief is that no human organization will be perfect or have everything completely right.  If you are less mainstream, such as LDS, then there may be many beliefs you hold to as true that you won't find anywhere else.  That would definitely make you more likely to stay somewhere even though you disagree with some of the teachings. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by goldberry

[Melinda in VT]

It is not common, but not unheard of, either. I think you get some "lukewarm" members in every religion, though I have gotten the impression from my various non-Mormon Christian friends that this seems to be far more common in other denominations than among LDS. I have wondered at times why this is, if it is because LDS church membership requires a great deal, so those who do not really hold a committed belief to the doctrine are more likely to leave altogether? Just speculation. I have gotten the impression that it is more common in Utah, where it is dominant culturally, for those who are less certain of their beliefs to stick around.

In my experience as a former Mormon who has spent probably thousands of hours discussing staying versus leaving, there are a several things (at least!) at play.

 

1. Yes, LDS membership is high demand, and people who have given a lot to the church (for example, those who served a mission, or those who ended a serious romantic relationship because the other person couldn't go to the temple) are likely to resist admitting even to themselves if they have doubts.

 

2. It's almost impossible to fly under the radar as a doubting Mormon if you can't tolerate a fair bit of social lying or at least a lack of transparency. You have temple recommend interviews where you are asked point blank if you believe certain things. Even seemingly benign (for the doubter) callings can have unexpected pressure to bear your testimony of Joseph Smith if you get a gung-ho partner.

 

3. The doctrine that families can be together forever (as long as everyone stays Mormon) means that often families view leaving the church as a rejection of the family and/or marriage.

 

4. The Mormon church teaches it is the only church with authority from God and the only church with the fullness of the gospel. If you hear this often enough growing up, it sets up a choice in your mind between Mormonism and atheism. So, if you don't want atheism, you stay with Mormonism because "it's better than anything else."

 

5. Doubts are much more likely to be equated with sin in Mormonism than in the mainline Protestant churches I've attended. Doubt in Mormonism means something is wrong. In my UCC and Episcopalian churches, doubt is taken as a normal part of the human experience. There's a line I love in our Episcopalian service, "No matter where you are on your journey, you are welcome here." I know my experience is not universal, but that was never something that was convincingly expressed in Mormonism.

 

All of these reasons lead to people first denying to themselves that they have doubts, then hiding those doubts from others, and finally leaving when they can't pretend any more.

[FaithManor]

I know many cultural Christians. I know a couple of cultural Buddhists as well. These individuals simply don't want to rock the boat with parents or like the sense of belonging and community with their religions, but do not believe in many or sometimes even a few of the tenets of the faith itself.

[Janeway]

The religion is based on the bible and all the other things you mentioned. I have had many Mormon friends and love their religion, as much as I can see from the outside. And if I were a religious person, it would be to have what they have. They have a community. They are assigned to each other. They take care of each other and are involved with everything. They are Christian and definitely follow Christ at least as much as any other Christian religion. Christ is the center of their faith.

[YaelAldrich]

Orthodox Jews also have this phenomenon in our midst.  We call them Orthoprax Jews, ones who do the actions correctly, but don't have the belief to back it up.  They, like the OP's friend, enjoy the social benefits of the in-group religion, but can't/don't believe.  They may or may not in the end go "off the derech" (off the [correct] path).

[Tsuga]

A Mormon friend of mine made a comment about not believing much of the teachings of Joseph Smith, but she stayed in her church because she liked it for the focus on service, living the faith, and in general believed the other teachings.  Until she said that I thought the whole basis of the religion was his teachings?

 

Can someone please explain this to me?  Is it common in the Mormon faith, or is she an exception?

 

I would say she's the most common type of Christian I know, period.

 

I know a few doctrinal converts. Everyone else likes the love, living the faith, and the style and the general theme of the religion.

 

Even people who genuinely believe all of it, 100%, could past the priesthood test if there were one, mostly are at that particular  church because their parents believed the same. They might have believed in a higher power who was a loving father no matter what, but the details? That was not too important.

 

This was one of many things that eroded my faith as a devout, questioning, thoughtful convert--it was very different in the youth group in which I converted, but I've learned that I was naive and that some of that was the exception rather than the rule.

[LibraryLover]

I know a Catholic who doesn't believe in Confession and one that doesn't believe "all the Mary stuff". Such is life.

 

 

:) Imo, the best thing about Catholicism *is*  "All the Mary stuff".  <3

Edited March 15, 2016 by LibraryLover

[Carrie12345]

I know a lot of religious people who don't believe big parts of the church they belong to.

I can't tell you how hard my siblings and I have been pushed to stand in a church and promise to raise our kids _____ by people who know we won't raise our kids ____.  

One more reason I'm a skeptic!

[SKL]

We attend a church whose oath I won't say because I believe it's wrong.  :P  Most of what they teach is "compatible with" my beliefs, and I like the feel of the church and its community.  (It is similar to the church of my childhood.)  I feel it's better for my family to attend than not.

 

I'm pretty sure I will never find an organization with exactly the same beliefs I have.  And even if I did, how long would that last, as I continue to grow spiritually and have new experiences?

 

I know there are some people who do believe a lot more of the church's doctrine than I do.  Especially the elderly members - I think it gives them a lot of comfort to contemplate the promises they have been given as they approach their earthly end.  That's great.  Maybe I will be like that too when I'm older.