Jump to content

Menu

JAWM: why are we such a mobile society?


EmilyGF
 Share

Recommended Posts

I couldn't find DS11 yesterday morning (he's usually a very diligent worker). I figured he was doing an assignment in his room so I went to look at his desk and he wasn't there. Then I heard a sniffling. He was in bed crying because his best friend is moving away.

 

The problem, though, is that his sister is dd7's best friend, his brother is ds4's best friend (they have been best friends since 1, before I even thought kids could play play with each other, they were clearly best friends and would get excited when the other one came into the room), his other sister is good friends with dd9, his mom is my best friend, and his dad is my dh's best friend. 

 

They were our first friends when we moved here nearly four years ago.

 

And now they are moving to Europe for good; which means that even if we could visit them in a year, their youngest two probably would feel uncomfortable speaking English.

 

Blah.

 

When hubby and I found ds11 crying, we both joined him in crying.

Sob.

 

Emily

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sorry.  It sucks. In the time we have lived here, we lost our best friends three times because they moved away. Of course, you always think you'll keep up the friendship, but it never works because people get busy with their lives and it it just hard to maintain a deep connection over space and time. I hate it.

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry. We've had to sacrifice multiple raises and jobs to stay in our high-employment, high-salary area. It is crazy how they expect people to just move around all the time. We are buying a house just under a mile from our current rental and the kids are all still devastated although we've committed to staying in the school district. 

 

I wish companies would respect that people need roots. You can't just replant a forest wherever YOU, the CEO, feel like it's cheaper. You have to tend the forests where they are for the long-run. Although it seems unfair to compare people to trees, it's kinder than what we are currently being treated as, like rocks or something that can just be moved from place to place with the river.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the flip side, it's not easy being the one who always moves away, either.

 

No, that is even worse, because the circle of friends who are left behind still have each other, keep doing things together - and the burden to keep in touch usually falls on the person who moved away, who has to work much harder on it because she needs it more. Sigh.

 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My youngest son has lost four friends that way. It breaks his heart each time. I didn't realize how much until one of those friends came to visit this area for a week. My son said, "I think about Jonathan every day." Jonathan has been away for 2 years now! My son has been missing this kid and thinking about him for 2 years! I didn't ask him how often he thinks about the other 3 who left. And Jonathan's mom said, "Jonathan still doesn't have a close friend. Whenever he meets a new kid he says, 'Well, he's almost like Garga's son, but not quite." This kid uses my son has the guage of whether a new kid will be a good friend or not and so far Jonathan hasn't found anyone up to snuff.

 

We hate it. It's a personal...pet peeve? A personal...burden? ...source of anxiety? of mine. I don't know the word I'm looking for. "Moving away" is one thing that I positively dread about relationships. It has happened just So Many Times when people that I love dearly have moved away. (Parents, very, very best friend, etc) Sometimes they had to and sometimes it was on a whim and each time it just HURTS. I'm very delicate in this area now. It's not getting easier when people go--it's getting harder.

 

I feel so sad for your family now. :(

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:(

 

At least there is facebook and stuff, so you can keep up with each other until you meet again.

 

I think they will probably still speak English at home, unless they haven't historically done so.

Nope, never spoken English at home.

 

I am happy for them. They want to go back to Europe, where they are from and where all their family is. I'm sure this is best for them, but it sucks for us.

 

Until now, we've always been the ones to move away, which is a different kind of hard. But now my kids are old enough to have really close friends, so my heart hurts for them. Sigh.

 

Emily

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope, never spoken English at home.

 

I am happy for them. They want to go back to Europe, where they are from and where all their family is. I'm sure this is best for them, but it sucks for us.

 

Until now, we've always been the ones to move away, which is a different kind of hard. But now my kids are old enough to have really close friends, so my heart hurts for them. Sigh.

 

Emily

 

Most Europeans do study English, so maybe that connection won't be lost.

 

I realize the language is only one aspect of it.  I am very sorry for all of you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can so relate this this. This is something I think about a lot, how mobile we are as a society when we didn't use to be as much a generation ago. I think more people go away to college and then move again for their first job, so they just don't put down roots. Often times, the best way to get a promotion or a raise, is to keep moving.

 

We have been both the one who moved and the ones who have had people move away. It's hard every time. And it seems like each time we move it's harder. I had really close friends in high school, in college and in the first city we lived in after college (we lived there 10 years). But since then we haven't been any where as long and the circumstances haven't been as ideal to make friends. In our last city it seems like we were right on the cusp of both my son and myself making some really close friends and then we moved. And since we've been in our new city, we've really tried, but no one has quite clicked yet here. I mean we've both made friends, but not as close of friends as we've had in the past. I feel like I'm doing everything in my power to help cultivate friends. It's just really hard and I think about all of the people I've had to move away from and really just wish I could have them back. It's so isolating when you don't have close friends to spend time with. And I look at my son and really want that for him as well. 

 

This increased mobility also means fewer people live near family, which is also really important when you start your own family. I really needed my mom when my son was a baby and toddler, especially when I was still working, but she was on the other side of the country. I think on a whole having a more mobile society is harmful for most people, especially families. It may not be as big a deal for college students or young professionals who are just starting out. But by the time you are ready for starting a family, having close reliable friends and family nearby is so important. It makes things just that much more stressful when you are missing those people in your life. 

 

Sorry to ramble on, but this is something I think about quite a bit. I wish there was a good solution, but there doesn't seem to be.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've forbidden my children to befriend any more military families (exaggeration) because they keep disappearing. My dd has lost 3 good friends in the past 2 years this way. No more girls her age are in our homeschoolng group. We live near a military base and it's rotten.

(I know its hard for them too.)

Edited by fairfarmhand
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hubby rejected a relocation to NY which include a pay cut in favor of unemployment two years ago. Luckily he found a job before the last day of work at that company. Most people who unwillingly relocated have tried to get jobs back here again.

 

We have many families in my kids german school who hope to find a job back home in Germany. Some families have which is good for them.

 

We also have many families here that have relocated from their home countries. Some want to go back if job opportunities arise, some would just relocate to another state or country if a better job comes along.

 

We just don't expect anyone to put down roots locally.

Edited by Arcadia
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I lived in the same place my whole life, other than college, which was wonderful. But I moved halfway across the state when I got married, and even as an adult it is hard. I miss my best friend so so so much...i could just cry. We met about 10 years ago, so not as kids, but she is the closest friend I've ever had. We are very different, and yet so alike.....she's just the ONE person I can go to with anything, and I'm that for her. WE keep in touch with Facebook, we message almost daily, but it isn't the same. I miss her terribly. Hugs to your family. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish companies would respect that people need roots. You can't just replant a forest wherever YOU, the CEO, feel like it's cheaper. You have to tend the forests where they are for the long-run. Although it seems unfair to compare people to trees, it's kinder than what we are currently being treated as, like rocks or something that can just be moved from place to place with the river.

 

None of the many friends we lost to moves had to move because an evil CEO wanted to move a job somewhere else.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

None of the many friends we lost to moves had to move because an evil CEO wanted to move a job somewhere else.

 

 

I don't really like the characterization of CEOs as "evil". I think HR and shareholders can be careless, thoughtless.

 

I would say 100% of the friends we lost were lost due to jobs but that may be generational. Most people wanted to stay in one place, but were military or corporate. Most people we know here would love to move back home someday but have jobs with Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon.

 

I don't know anyone who moved their school-age children from place to place for anything other than economic or political necessity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I lost all of my friends when I moved out of town at age 12.  I think it was worse then, because the only way to contact them was by snail mail - my parents didn't let us call long distance because it was too expensive.  I never saw or spoke to any of those people again.  In my case I had many other things to think about with starting a new school and getting to know a new town.  I guess that made it easier.  But I am not fond of moving at all.  I've been in my present house for 20+ years, and plan to stay here until I can't manage any more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would say 100% of the friends we lost were lost due to jobs but that may be generational. Most people wanted to stay in one place, but were military or corporate. Most people we know here would love to move back home someday but have jobs with Microsoft, Boeing, Amazon.

 

I don't know anyone who moved their school-age children from place to place for anything other than economic or political necessity.

 

Our friends who moved away from our town moved for the following reasons:

- dissatisfied with certain aspects of job, applied and got a job elsewhere

- finally got a job in the same location as spouse and could end years of long distance relationship

- end of temporary job stage in academic career (post doc) - everybody in academia moves at least several times before having a chance for a permanent position

 -retired and can finally move to a more attractive location

- retired and looking for new challenges= position elsewhere

- to be near family and take care of grandchildren

 

Not a single person I know moved because they had to for a corporate job; there are barely any corporate employers in our small town. But many people would like to move away to more attractive locations: closer proximity to a city, more beautiful nature, better cultural environment, more progressive atmosphere. The one thing this place has going for it is low COL and friendly people. Which is nice. But not having to drive two hours to the city or having real mountains or being in a more liberal location would be great, too.

Edited by regentrude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's always difficult.  It's something I experienced many times as a kid.

 

I remember talking with my FIL and husband many years ago about this concept.  FIL said he was the radical one in the family with moving across a river (this was in Germany).  My husband moved to another country.  He's not the only one either.  But literally moving just across a river was a big deal at that point in time.  They probably would have viewed moving to another country as up there with moving to another planet.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course, you always think you'll keep up the friendship, but it never works because people get busy with their lives and it it just hard to maintain a deep connection over space and time. I hate it.

It is so hard. My experiences as an adult - as an expat and emigrant - have entirely rewritten my perspective on friendship. I grew up more of a one-friend type, with strong introverted tendencies. I'm still introverted but I've developed a much looser, more fluid understanding of friendship. I see it now as relating to meeting specific needs at a certain time in life - I have a few friends that I see consistently but not necessarily with the same frequency. They generally don't know each other. I really enjoy what I get from each of them and hope they feel the same way, but am generally not too emotionally invested in any one friendship. I try to be graceful and accepting of changing circumstances which eventually lead to a drifting apart. It's been a tough journey to get to this point. I'm not even entirely sure it's healthy, but it's ... realistic, I guess. It's how I teach the kids to view friendship, and hopefully it will be easier for them.

Edited by nd293
  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is so hard. My experiences as an adult - as an expat and emigrant - have entirely rewritten my perspective on friendship. I grew up more of a one-friend type, with strong introverted tendencies. I'm still introverted but I've developed a much looser, more fluid understanding of friendship. I see it now as relating to meeting specific needs at a certain time in life - I have a few friends that I see consistently but not necessarily with the same frequency. They generally don't know each other. I really enjoy what I get from each of them and hope they feel the same way, but am generally not too emotionally invested in any one friendship. I try to be graceful and accepting of changing circumstances which eventually lead to a drifting apart. It's been a tough journey to get to this point. I'm not even entirely sure it's healthy, but it's ... realistic, I guess. It's how I teach the kids to view friendship, and hopefully it will be easier for them.

As the mover-awayer, from my home country, and from many towns as we move around due to military moves, I've reached the same sort of understanding. I'm an extrovert, so enjoy being around people - require it in fact, but I've let go of the expectation of long term besties or anyone keeping in touch after I move (I was the only one who called -ever). It's always fun to "catch up" with old friends when the opportunity arises, but I don't get too invested anymore.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the JAWM part- OP, I am so sorry this is hard for you. :grouphug:

 

For the separate disussion, I'm with nd293 and fraidycat. I also have a much more fluid understanding of friendship because of being an expat and moving all the time as an adult. (My problem is that I always get too attached to the place I'm in and leaving places is much harder for me than leaving friends which probably doesn't say anything good about my people skills.)

 

I do have one friend that I met 9 years ago who is still my friend, who I visit when we're near her, and who has come to visit us in other places (even other countries). But she's lived overseas too and has lots of fluid friendships herself and is willing to invest in friendships differently that most people. Also, she understands my introversion and when her family comes to stay with us, she asks me how long I can handle having them at my house and is fine with my taking a break in my bedroom every day. I wouldn't have guessed I'd ever find someone like her and I can't imagine I ever will again.

Edited by Amira
  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP: I'm so sorry. It's hard to lose friendships, no matter which one of you is moving.

 

As for the rest, I'm with the expat crowd. I don't have a best friend anymore; I haven't since I moved away from my hometown my junior year in high school. I have people with whom I am friendly in whatever location I'm in at the time. I move every 2-3 years, and many of the people I meet also move that often. Those who don't move that often are not always willing to open their hearts to those of us whom they know will move on a schedule. It's self-preservation on their part, and it's totally understandable. It's hard all around and is one of the factors that has me occasionally re-evaluating whether or not this lifestyle is a good one for my family.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

:grouphug:

 

I know how hard it is.  We live in a very rural town and when friends of our left 6 years ago it sort of devastated our family.  It sent my dd (now18) into a terrible spin.  Their move was also like removing a leg in a 3 leg stool.  Our church then shut down and we lost that too.  Everybody ended up leaving except us, and it was bad.

 

6 years later my boys have made friends but my dd never did.  

 

Now we are considering moving (for a job, and a better place to live), which will devastate my boys and their friends, who will not be able to find "replacements". 

 

Just typing this is making me tear up. 

 

So I so understand your son.   :grouphug:  again.  It is hard and it stinks. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

JAWM:It does stink. It stinks for both sides. And there are ages when it is especially hard. My middle son had a really hard time with his third move. He was 8. I didn't think it would be a big deal but it was huge for him. His temperament also makes moving harder for him. Thank goodness for Skype and free long distance. That has made keeping in touch so much easier.

 

I'm in the move all the time crowd also. And it really hard to be the one moving to a closed community- one where everyone has lived their whole lives in the same town with all their family and friends. We've moved to a couple places like that and it's hard to be the outsider coming in trying to find friends. Much easier to move to a transient place.

In some ways I'm glad my kids have had to move a few times even when the moves were hard. It's helped give them a perspective on life that my family who never left our small town don't have. On the fip side, I'm sad that they don't have those lifelong deep roots or some of the larger family traditions- Wednesday dinner with the whole family, Sunday post-church brunch out at the lake, etc.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course, we'd never have met our friends if we didn't live in a mobile society. Heck, they wouldn't be married if we didn't live in a mobile society (they are from different European countries). 

 

And I shouldn't talk; my husband and I lived in 4 states in 10 years of marriage. But I lived a mile from my grandparents growing up and loved my little community. But that community doesn't exist in the same way anymore; there is no going back.

 

Talked today about planning a trip to visit them next April. :-)

 

I tend to be an optimist. But this goodbye is hard. It is one of those rare friendships that you look back on and just say, "Wow." And we are the better and richer for it. I don't know that I even would have asked for such a friendship beforehand because I wouldn't have known it could have existed. But I got it anyways and am glad it was here for as long as it was.

 

Emily

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've forbidden my children to befriend any more military families (exaggeration) because they keep disappearing. My dd has lost 3 good friends in the past 2 years this way. No more girls her age are in our homeschoolng group. We live near a military base and it's rotten.

(I know its hard for them too.)

 

 

We live in a place with 5(?) military bases.  Here's my conversations meeting my neighbors for the first time..."Hi, we don't make close friends because we're military"..."Hi, I'm so and so and we're air force so we'll only be here three years."  It's like they're upfront saying, "Don't get to know me or be a close friend because I'm just moving away soon anyway."  So, when I meet a family with kids who are my kid's ages, I tend to ask what their job is.  I don't want to do it, but I am tending to dismiss the military families because I know their time is short.  Very frustrating!  

 

We moved 1000 miles away after living in the same house for 11 years with neighbors who mostly stuck around.  I miss that.  I had my tribe and I really need another one.  It is not easy making friends and we are trying very hard!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This increased mobility also means fewer people live near family, which is also really important when you start your own family. I really needed my mom when my son was a baby and toddler, especially when I was still working, but she was on the other side of the country. I think on a whole having a more mobile society is harmful for most people, especially families. It may not be as big a deal for college students or young professionals who are just starting out. But by the time you are ready for starting a family, having close reliable friends and family nearby is so important. It makes things just that much more stressful when you are missing those people in your life. 

 

Sorry to ramble on, but this is something I think about quite a bit. I wish there was a good solution, but there doesn't seem to be.

 

We've moved around some....... our family has not been harmed by it, and plenty of people move around quite successfully, and have healthy families while doing so.  Would have been nice to have my mom closer when my kids were young? Sure. But we know that every where we move, we need to work on developing friendships so that we do have a network of support. Close reliable friends can be found wherever you go if you make a real effort to develop friendships. We've got friends in many places that are "like family" and I wouldn't have it any other way at this point.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've forbidden my children to befriend any more military families (exaggeration) because they keep disappearing. My dd has lost 3 good friends in the past 2 years this way. No more girls her age are in our homeschoolng group. We live near a military base and it's rotten.

(I know its hard for them too.)

 

I miss some of the military mommas from that group........ thank goodness I can keep up with them on Facebook.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't find DS11 yesterday morning (he's usually a very diligent worker). I figured he was doing an assignment in his room so I went to look at his desk and he wasn't there. Then I heard a sniffling. He was in bed crying because his best friend is moving away.

 

The problem, though, is that his sister is dd7's best friend, his brother is ds4's best friend (they have been best friends since 1, before I even thought kids could play play with each other, they were clearly best friends and would get excited when the other one came into the room), his other sister is good friends with dd9, his mom is my best friend, and his dad is my dh's best friend. 

 

They were our first friends when we moved here nearly four years ago.

 

And now they are moving to Europe for good; which means that even if we could visit them in a year, their youngest two probably would feel uncomfortable speaking English.

 

Blah.

 

When hubby and I found ds11 crying, we both joined him in crying.

Sob.

 

Emily

Aww. I'm sorry. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a lot about being a mobile society that really does stink. 

 

Besides the difficulty of losing nearby loved ones, other things too. Like loss of identity. For a lot of people these days when asked where they are "from", the answer is that it's complicated. In some ways I envy people who were born and raised in one place. 

 

My upbringing was not military, just the somewhat typical not-stay-in-one-place for various reasons upbringing. I was born in a New England state and taken out of that part of the country at age 4. I feel basically zero connection to New England and spent most of my growing up in southern California, but I'll never be a real Californian because I wasn't born there, and will never be a real New Englander bc I can't relate to those who spent much of their life there. And then we never stayed in one CA town for long bc of parental life issues. 

 

Many of us don't know what it's like to have a "hometown". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm really sorry. We are now planning for a move 500+ miles away and although it is not a continent away (we have done that too), it's hard. I wish we didn't have to go. DS is an only child so no siblings to cushion the blow either. His cousins are all 1000s of miles away. And he only has 2 very good friends to begin with. I really ache for him. I know that I will be able to continue my own friendships via Facebook but he is opposed to social media for now although he is old enough to start accounts. So he will probably depend on email/ Skype. But you know how high schoolers are, so busy all the time. We are going to try really hard to stay connected.

 

I try to comfort myself that there has to be a silver lining. Being constantly on the move has taught us to be very resilient. It also teaches us that life is lighter without baggage and that it's better not to hold on to things too tightly. It has taught us not to take too much for granted. Small consolations but helpful in becoming adaptable and tough.

 

Hugs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because government policy sees economic advantage as more important than anything else, and they, and the business world, believe that means a highly flexible, reactive, and mobile workforce.  People should go where it is best for companies and businesses to set up jobs, and that is the model government regulations and programs of all kinds support.  The fact that many are employed by large employers makes this worse, as they don't tend to have strong ties to any particular place.

 

These kinds of businesses move around, and don't see the development of community as a function of work as local businesses tend to. (Because they actually want to live where they are and have personal connections.)  When the advantage of one place diminishes they move elsewhere.

 

City planning can also be a factor.  Many people have to change neighbourhoods when there is any significant change in their housing needs - downsizing, upsizing, need something less expensive, want something more expensive.  There aren't a variety of housing options so they are forced to move to meet their needs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also - I would say when I have disguessed with people the kinds of policy approaches that might lead to less mobility, they often don't like it.  While they might mean more settled neighbourhoods, some could make moving a little more difficult, and people really resent the idea of anything restricting them in that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also - I would say when I have disguessed with people the kinds of policy approaches that might lead to less mobility, they often don't like it.  While they might mean more settled neighbourhoods, some could make moving a little more difficult, and people really resent the idea of anything restricting them in that way.

 

what policy approaches are you thinking of?

 

I have grown up in a society with almost no mobility and government regulating where people could live and work, and I am extremely hesitant to accept artificial restrictions. I have not seen any good come of it.

As little as I personally like it, I see mobility as a strength that allows a response to changing circumstances - as opposed to clinging to old ways (like predominant industries) that no longer work.

 

Btw, even in countries with a traditionally overall very low mobility, the most highly educated people are expected to be very mobile, which often includes moves to different countries.

Edited by regentrude
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found these interesting statistics about reasons why people move.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2014pubs/p20-574.pdf

 

Between 2012 and 2013, 35.9 million people 1 year and over living in the United States moved to a different residence. The mover rate for this period was 11.7 percent. Why did these people move? As displayed in Figure 1, housing-related reasons were the most popular response with 17.2 million (48.0 percent).1 Family-related reasons were the second most selected choice with 30.3 percent, followed by job-related (19.4 percent) and other (2.3 percent).

 

On p.3  is also a table with data on distances moved for each of the moving reasons.

I found it interesting that less than 50% of the long distance moves (>200miles) were job related.

As expected, the percentage of job related moves is higher for people with higher education.

 

On p.6 is also an interesting table that splits the three categories into more detailed reasons.

Edited by regentrude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

what policy approaches are you thinking of?

 

I have grown up in a society with almost no mobility and government regulating where people could live and work, and I am extremely hesitant to accept artificial restrictions. I have not seen any good come of it.

As little as I personally like it, I see mobility as a strength that allows a response to changing circumstances - as opposed to clinging to old ways (like predominant industries) that no longer work.

 

Btw, even in countries with a traditionally overall very low mobility, the most highly educated people are expected to be very mobile, which often includes moves to different countries.

 

There have always been some professions that required mobility.  Military, academia, the performing arts, for example. Their nature requires it. I would argue though that even that kind of mobility is often healthier when the community as a whole has some relative stability.  Essentially everyone gets the benefits of the stable community while also allowing for the benifts of some movement between communities.

 

I think that the best kinds of policy direction on such things are generally community based development.  High level direction tends to lose the trees for the forest - you can see it especially in the more extreme examples (I'm thinking London, or NYC) but the same kinds of things go on in smaller ways too.  A community is really interested in making sure that it is a good place to work and live, whereas higher levels are looking at abstractions like GDP and growth. 

 

One example that I had a discussion about which some people objected to was related to ensuring that people in a community usually had some kind of preferred access to housing in that community, and that people were not pushed out for economic reasons.  One way can be with stabilizing property taxes, and another can be with things like subsidized housing for low or even middle incomes - these programs can prefer current residents over people moving in, for example.

 

Some people really object to that kind of thing.  The feel that their right of movement means they should have just as much chance as anyone.  Which is interesting because it takes so much for granted that land is a truly private commodity.  It's been just as common though historically to consider staying in place in some sense a right as well - even in feudal systems where individuals don't really own land, people are often considered to have a right to subsist on the land they were born on, where someone can't just come along and buy that right away.

 

We North Americans (and in the UK too) also have less ability to stay in place as renters than many people in other places do.  How rental markets are managed can be another policy issue - rent incomes have effects in some ways like those of being an employee rather than self-employed, and that has an impact on community stability.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...