amselby81 Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 We've used MUS since my daughter was in first grade, and used Alpha. We've been happy with MUS, because she gets it. We're now in Gamma. Things have still be going well. But we just switched over to CLE Language Arts, and I love it so much that I decided to look at the samples for their math. There are things in CLE that she has little experience with. I know, MUS is mastery, and CLE appears to be spiral. I know the differences. But is MUS going to get into the metric system? When will MUS get more into measuring, and telling time? She gets money problems, but CLE has visuals! She took one look at a sample lesson that included pictures of coins, and she got excited. Or should I stick with MUS and supplement with some sylvan math books? I do like that her math concepts so far are solid. This might just be a situation where the grass seems greener on the other side. I almost wish we could use both, but I think that would be overkill. Quote
bluedarling Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 MUS did cover time and measuring, but I don't recall where. It was taught once to mastery but not reviewed much, and my kids could have used some additional review of those topics. I was very happy with MUS, though, up until HS level, at which point it was no longer sufficient. I did not like spiral programs, however, due to too much review. We didn't try CLE (just Horizons), though. You could try CLE, if you have the money, then fall back to MUS if you find the review annoying, or leave well enough alone and stay with MUS. Both are good options. I thought CLE looked prettier than MUS, but my kids appreciated the simplicity of MUS pages. 1 Quote
SnMomof7 Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 My children kept forgetting time with MUS. There was a big chunk then nothing until the end of another book...by then try forgot it all. Although...this was the case with MUS for most everything for us. CLE's emphasis on ongoig review has worked much better for us, personally. CLE includes far more on measurements - metric, imperial and back and forth between the two. 2 Quote
AnnaM Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 We moved over from MUS to CLE. MUS served the purpose of reviewing multiplication but I didn't see the method being sustainable long term for our family. I did have to put both my girls back a few grade levels in the CLE because there were topics that MUS hadn't covered yet at that level. I am finding that CLE was a good choice for us and I moved my younger son over quicker than I did my girls. 1 Quote
AnnaM Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 PS. Just looked at your siggy and my kids went through gamma and Delta before we changed. Quote
Garga Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) My oldest son used MUS all along until Algebra then we switched to Lial's algebra. He is doing well. MUS was a good fit for him. My youngest son was weak in math and struggled so much with MUS. He just could NOT master the subject at all. I switched him to CLE and he was 2 years behind. He does math every day, even on holidays, and we skip the quizzes and tests, which account for 3 lessons a book. By doing this, he is now only 1 year behind and by November, he'll be on grade level. CLE has been a Godsend for us for my youngest. They introduce something and you don't have to fully understand it when they introduce it because they'll sloowly add more and more to it until you do get it. There are so many topics that MUS didn't teach much that my youngest is learning with very little effort. With MUS you really do have to sit and stay on a topic until you master it. Oh, how many days did we sit there and sit there while I tried so hard to get the lightbulb to turn on for my youngest. There was no way we could advance in the book until he "got" it and he just wasn't getting it. It was so frustrating for us all. The other day we went to watch some Maple sugaring and the guide said, "And does anyone know at what temperature water boils?" This is something they review in CLE (4th grade anyway) all the time and my son knew the answer, effortlessly. He's filled in the spot for "boiling temerature, F _____ and C ______" about 20 times and he knows it now. It's easy to him to know things like this. And those math facts are actually sticking. I tried to teach addition math facts to my son for 5 years to no avail, until starting with CLE. Ok--I'm rambling. I love MUS. I love Steve Demme. I think if you have regular strength math kids, they'll do fine. But if you have a weak math student, like I did, then I don't believe it's enough. I don't believe they teach the concepts long enough. Some kids need a lot more review for it to stick, like my youngest. MUS was awesome for my oldest and he almost cried when we were done with it because he loved it and Mr. Demme so much. But CLE was a lifesaver for my youngest. Edited March 12, 2016 by Garga 2 Quote
OneStepAtATime Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 They are very different math programs so it would be hard to tell ahead of time if one will work better than the other. Since CLE looks appealing to you, I agree with upthread, trying it out wouldn't be very cost prohibitive since you can buy individual light units. Please, please give the placement test, then just try CLE. You don't have to buy the entire grade level of light units to try it out. I love CLE and I also love MUS, but MUS did not work for us. CLE has. FWIW, some find all the review annoying and drop it. Others need/like the review but cut out some or even a lot of the review problems in areas the student is solid so they aren't reviewing as often. Some need ALL the review. Another thing, some kids need more immersion in a topic right off the bat (more of a mastery introduction) than CLE provides. As Garga mentioned, they introduce a concept gently, then keep adding to it in subsequent lessons. You can actually beef up the introduction if you find that your child needs more of an in depth introduction to new concepts. Just work for a longer period of time, on a dry erase board and with paper, to do problems together for the new material. Don't try this, though, just because the child doesn't immediately grasp the full concept. Honestly, it will probably come with time and exposure through the program. Modify for more mastery only if the child is getting really frustrated and annoyed. The TM will offer additional problems/material for doing that. Easy to adapt the program. It is also easy to slow it down or speed it up. If you find you like CLE, I encourage you to get the CLE flash cards. The system of review for math facts is brilliantly done and their flash cards tie directly into that system. You can adapt other flash cards but it is sooooooo much easier just getting the CLE version. The CLE math chart is also extremely helpful. You use both throughout the elementary levels so you get your money's worth. Also, for grading some only get the answer keys and that works fine. I would mention, though, that the TM is easier to grade from and if you ever need to look up an explanation of a previous concept it is MUCH easier to just refer to a previous lesson in the TM than to dig through old light units. Also, the TM has suggestions for what to do in areas of struggle, when a child is accelerated, offers alternate tests, games, additional material for explaining a concept, etc. And yes, CLE covers metric quite extensively, along with Imperial measurement. Measurement in both units is emphasized throughout the program, at least from 2nd (or maybe 3rd?) onward. If you try it out and find it doesn't work, you can always switch back to MUS. 2 Quote
amselby81 Posted March 12, 2016 Author Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) Thank you, everyone! I really thought MUS was THE program for us. But we never really tried anything else. We did dabble in Horizons, her kindergarten year. And she liked it at first, but at about mid year, it just seemed to be too much work, and she hated it. But that was probably just because it was too much for kindergarten. But when I saw those pages of CLE, I was blown away by the things that she'd be weak in. Like telling time. And I know she's gotten that in each book. But it's just at the end of the book, and usually, by the time we get to the end of the book, we are burned out, and just trying to finish. I like that it covers metric. I don't know much about the metric system, but I do think it's important to at least have a general concept of the metric system. For now, I ordered a sylvan math exercise book, and we'll use that for fun/supplementation. We'll chug on through Gamma, and I will seriously be considering CLE when it comes time to order next year's books. I know that my husband doesn't want to switch, and he thinks I'm crazy. He think math u see is fine. And it probably is for now. But I feel like we might be missing something. My daughter doesn't even use her blocks anymore, which also has me wondering if she even needs all the emphasis on each concept. All that being said, I do still appreciate our time with MUS. I really believe that my daughter is strong in her math facts because of MUS. Edited March 12, 2016 by amselby81 1 Quote
Garga Posted March 12, 2016 Posted March 12, 2016 (edited) FWIW, some find all the review annoying and drop it. Others need/like the review but cut out some or even a lot of the review problems in areas the student is solid so they aren't reviewing as often. . Don't try this, though, just because the child doesn't immediately grasp the full concept. Honestly, it will probably come with time and exposure through the program. Modify for more mastery only if the child is getting really frustrated and annoyed. The TM will offer additional problems/material for doing that. Easy to adapt the program. It is also easy to slow it down or speed it up. This is a very good point! When we moved from MUS to CLE and my son didn't immediately understand the new lesson, I would sit there and explain it over and over and over, trying to get him to understand. That's what I had been used to with MUS. They present a lesson and then child needs to understand before you move on. But I found out that I don't have to do that with CLE. If my son doesn't get it the first time, it was ok. I could relax and let the book slooowly teach the new concept to him and eventually he'd get it. It was like magic or something. Those CLE people are geniuses and seemed to know exactly how to present new concepts so the kids can grasp them slowly over a number of lessons. The frustration and tears went away once I learned not to sit there explaining over and over and over. My oldest didn't need a slow approach. He'd be shown a lesson in MUS and be like, "Got it!" and we'd move on. Different kids need different things. Don't force a kid to learn a new concept in CLE. Let the book unfold it for the child a little at a time. Edited March 13, 2016 by Garga 4 Quote
Stellalarella Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 I've been using MUS with kids for 7 years with 6 kids. I feel like it has a lot of review. We've used it from Alpha to Algebra 2. I also throw in other math books for fun. There is one area that I supplement with some Math Mammoth, but overall, I feel like MUS has been a good. I think it's good to sit down and ask oneself if switching to a different style of curriculum is going to really be the thing that will help a kid remember certain algorithms or certain skills like telling time. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've explained area and perimeter. It's not the scope and sequence of a math program that makes the kids go blank. It's not the teacher. Really. I don't know why a kid can do something over and over again and then just....forget. but they just do!!!!!!!!!! Because I've seen this in 6 kids, and I know how extensively we work on some topics, I don't think it is a matter of poor curriculum fit or poor teaching or poor commitment to review. A math program does not teach your kids math, you do. So when you are the teacher you are always going to have to adjust or redo your teaching as you go along. A curriculum can lay out a scope and sequence, it can depend more heavily on "conceptual" style or more heavily on learning the algorithm. A program that spirals like Saxon or CLE has advantages in that the kids revisit topics super frequently, so you don't have to insist on mastery. However, sometimes kids start turning off their desire to learn it because they think--"oh, it's that again. Didn't I already do that?" The awesome thing about homeschooling is that it is easy to switch to another program, so I'm not telling people that you have to pick one and stay with it forever, I'm just saying that sometimes we switch without really understanding what we are giving up, or what we are going to change to. Quite frankly the number one reason why I would consider ditching MUS is that the prices keep going up and that has nothing to do with scope, sequence, or method. Quote
sweetpea3829 Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 In my opinion, MUS is a decent program for struggling math students (obviously, YMMV). But not for children that are average or above in math ability. It is VERY basic and very incremental. I am using it successfully*** with my eldest child who has some pretty moderate learning disabilities, particularly with math. ***As successfully as can be expected for her at this point. She has made great strides in procedural math, but continues to lag significantly behind in terms of conceptual understanding. She is getting what she needs. She is learning how to DO math. My hope is that she will be an adult that is able to function, mathematically, in every day life. And hey...if she goes beyond that...and learns Algebra or whatever...even better. I would not use MUS as a stand-alone for a typical student. Definitely not for an accelerated student. I appreciate the foundation that MUS lays...and it is a solid foundation, for sure. But its a foundation. There is little to no exploration. There is no depth. If it were a meal...it would just be the meat. No extras. In addition...MUS is weak in the specific areas you mentioned. Yes, it does "cover" those topics...but he pretty much throws them in there as a side thought. Hey, we're going to learn how to multiply x4...oh, let's also quickly talk about how 4 quarts makes a gallon! And the lack of instruction in problem solving is an issue, imo. Sure...it has some word problems...and it even includes a page of "enrichment" per lesson. But there is no direct instruction in the methods of problem solving. At least not so far...and we are halfway through Gamma. Finally...as Stella pointed out...MUS is expensive. It's a lot of money for a math program that gives just a basic math education and is mediocre at best. I have yet to find the teacher's guide to be useful, so pretty much...you're spending $85 for the teaching DVD and the student workbook. That's IF you're leveling up and already have blocks, lol. For your situation...if you decide to keep MUS because its familiar and you don't want to just throw it out, maybe you can add in Math Mammoth to shore up MUS' weak points? MM is pretty affordable and would nicely fill in the gaps. 1 Quote
Peaceful Isle Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 (edited) My kids have all used gamma and delta (except my four year old of course). I think those two years are excellent. Epsilon is a little meh in my opinion. The older has also used zeta , prealgebra, and will be doing algebra 1 next year. I do think it is a light math, but it is enough for us. All my kids will be using math u see next year. It is what I always go back to and love. Edited March 13, 2016 by Peacefulisle 1 Quote
Guest Posted March 13, 2016 Posted March 13, 2016 If you switch, do the placement test and start where she places. CLE covers things MUS does not. Do not be concerned about the number on the book! CKE is about a year ahead of anything else we have ever used. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote
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