What was Charles Ingalls' Deal

[FaithManor]

I'm following you around on this thread, Faith!

 

We went to the Wilder farm last summer, and this is the very first question I asked. Why in the world did they leave NY?! Pretty typical answer...several years of bad crops, and the promise of more prosperity in Minnesota. 

 

Also interesting to note is that hops were the primary crop on their farm. Not a fact that would make it into a children's book published during Prohibition!   ;)

Love it! HOPS!

 

Oh my goodness, you remember who teetotaling Ma Ingalls was. Whew would she have been unhappy about her future son in law's family having been successful on hops. :lol:

[FaithManor]

Back east was eastern Wisconsin.    :001_smile:

It is interesting how the definition of "east" changed the more westward ho families went.

 

At one point when they talked about "east" it was Iowa. Southeast really, but LOL "East".

[Daria]

So I kind of felt like Charles was able to indulge in fiddle playing but Caroline continued to work. Yeah, that's a harsh judgement but I saw it in my childhood and we see it today- how many moms work up until bedtime while the dads don't?

 

When people talk about moms working up until bedtime, they include putting the kids to bed as part of that.  I don't view the fiddle playing as any different from singing kids a lullaby or reading them a bedtime story, and most people would consider those part of the "work" of parenting.

[Nan in Mass]

It might have been work for Pa to play the fiddle to entertain everyone when he was tired after working physically hard all day.

 

Nan

[Xuzi]

It might have been work for Pa to play the fiddle to entertain everyone when he was tired after working physically hard all day.

 

Nan

I think it's mentioned at least once in the books that he mainly played on winter evenings, and hardly at all during the planting, harvesting, and plowing.

[Annie G]

When people talk about moms working up until bedtime, they include putting the kids to bed as part of that.  I don't view the fiddle playing as any different from singing kids a lullaby or reading them a bedtime story, and most people would consider those part of the "work" of parenting.

 

You're right- I agree.

[Annie G]

I think it's mentioned at least once in the books that he mainly played on winter evenings, and hardly at all during the planting, harvesting, and plowing.

 

That makes sense. 

 

In the summer I bet he was one exhausted guy! It's super light here by 5 am in the summer...like BRIGHT daylight. And summer daylight lasts nearly 15 hours.   It's a farming area and most are out working while there is enough light- the farmers I know are super tired in the summer months because they're doing nothing but farming and sleeping. No kidding. 

 

Fiddle playing in the cold winter months- which are awful here with only 9 hours of daylight in mid-December- would surely be a welcome way to get through the boring dark hours.  

[katilac]

It wasn’t uncommon for siblings to marry siblings in remote locations.   

 

I really hope this is supposed to say cousins!

[Kathryn]

I really hope this is supposed to say cousins!

I think she means one family's set of siblings to marry another family's set of siblings. I also have several of these in my Midwestern family tree from years back.

[Tsuga]

I really hope this is supposed to say cousins!

 

I think it means cross-marry, like, Brother Family1 to Sister Family2, and Sister Family1 to Brother Family2. So two siblings marry two siblings, and what you get out of it is the next generation are double-cousins.

 

Edit: Kathryn got in before me. :)

Edited March 11, 2016 by Tsuga

[Tsuga]

No kidding - how many wells did the man really want to dig???

 

If I could get paid good wages and know that my body wouldn't break before retirement, I'd love that job. I enjoy digging. The only reason I don't do more of it is that I have other things that can afford my family more opportunities. And yes: I have dug a well or at least helped to dig one, and dug an outhouse, as a girl.

 

I like physical work.

[katilac]

I think she means one family's set of siblings to marry another family's set of siblings. 

 

 

I think it means cross-marry

 

That makes more sense, and is much less disturbing. 

[Barb_]

So true on infantilizing children today !

 

Someone mentioned earlier that the reason Ma gave for Mary getting so much was because she was so pretty. Can anyone find a real-life photo of them? I saw one once and Laura was much prettier than Mary.

Y'know, Caroline was quite severe in appearance and as she aged, unfortunate looking. In my mind, Mary resembles her more than Pa and that may be why Ma favored her and talked about her beauty. Laura would've internalized what she'd been told. Almanzo though, he was quite the handsome fella.

[katilac]

 Almanzo though, he was quite the handsome fella.

 

Random LHotP fact: Laura's first kiss on the TV show was also the first kiss for actress Melissa Gilbert. iirc, she was 16 and Dean Butler was about 8 years older. 

 

Yeah, it was kind of creepy. She still looked like a kid and he . . . did not. 

[Barb_]

Random LHotP fact: Laura's first kiss on the TV show was also the first kiss for actress Melissa Gilbert. iirc, she was 16 and Dean Butler was about 8 years older.

 

Yeah, it was kind of creepy. She still looked like a kid and he . . . did not.

Completely unrelated but same for Kirsten Dunst. Brad Pitt: interview with a vampire. She was 11 and he was 29...BLECH! As a Mom, I would have a very hard time with that.

[Renthead Mommy]

Oh, I have a deep, deep darker theory...

 

She married him in February 1860, and Mary didn't arrive until 1865. Unusual. Oh, there could have been some infertility for sure, but he wasn't in the war or anything - his younger brothers, much to their father's consternation ran away to join the army - still......

 

 

 

 

Another random LHothP fact:  The younger brother mentioned in (I think) LH in the Big Woods, the one that came back from the war "a little wild" who plays a trumpet I believe, is great, great (don't remember how many) grandfather of my good friend.    Her dad was an Ingalls.  

[FaithManor]

Completely unrelated but same for Kirsten Dunst. Brad Pitt: interview with a vampire. She was 11 and he was 29...BLECH! As a Mom, I would have a very hard time with that.

Oh just GACK no!!!

[LucyStoner]

The Pilgrims did.

 

And quite a few westward bound families all through the 19th and early 20th century.  

 

When I did my husband's family tree he has a branch that traces to the Massachusetts Bay Colony and then after the federal censuses started were literally never in the same state in two successive censuses.  From what I know of their family in the late 19th century and onwards from the mostly lost 1890 census, same deal up until I assume his dad hit the 1990 and 2000 censuses in eastern Washington.  Move, move, move.  

[staceyobu]

Random LHotP fact: Laura's first kiss on the TV show was also the first kiss for actress Melissa Gilbert. iirc, she was 16 and Dean Butler was about 8 years older. 

 

Yeah, it was kind of creepy. She still looked like a kid and he . . . did not.

Even as a kid, Dean Butler never looked right as Almonzo to me. I guess he wasn't quite hot enough in my eyes to be the man Laura raved about.

[Guest]

The show was just ick to me. Mom and I had such great hopes for it and couldn't wait for the night the premiere was on, but when it was over we just looked at each other, shut off the TV, and never watched it together again.

 

I grew up with the Garth Williams illustrations because my grandmother couldn't bear to part with Mom and Aunt's childhood copies, so we only read the ones with the Anna Sewell illustrations when we were visiting her.

 

My sister and I each got a new volume for Christmas and then Mom would start reading them for bedtime stories from the beginning of Big Woods.

 

I cried when Jack died. I was even more upset when I found out that he didn't die. If there are no more Emo bands and none of them named themselves "Pa sold Jack with the ponies" I'm seriously going to start saying that to acknowledge random losses of ds8's innocence instead of "Oh to live on Sugar Mountain."

 

/tmi

 

/LOTP geek

Edited March 11, 2016 by Guest

[scoutingmom]

Random LHotP fact: Laura's first kiss on the TV show was also the first kiss for actress Melissa Gilbert. iirc, she was 16 and Dean Butler was about 8 years older.

 

Yeah, it was kind of creepy. She still looked like a kid and he . . . did not.

Except Laura on TV kissed a boy seasons earlier. It was a quick peck (and he kissed her I think), but it was on the lips. It was some boy she had a crush on and they would hunt frogs together.....

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Tsuga]

Completely unrelated but same for Kirsten Dunst. Brad Pitt: interview with a vampire. She was 11 and he was 29...BLECH! As a Mom, I would have a very hard time with that.

 

NOPE. No hard time for me, either. Simply: This is not a role, the requirements of which, I think you are capable of understanding the consequences of. As your parent, I am saying no.

 

(Edit: 16-24 is a much different story. Still statutory rape in real life, but certainly not... pedophillic.)

Edited March 11, 2016 by Tsuga

[Deee]

This thread is facinating. I held off reading the later books with DS until he was a little bit older. the Long Winter is grim. I am still struck by the Wilder boys hoarding seed wheat in the walls while they knew people around them were starving. The fact that this selfishness is never commented on is amazing to me.

D

[Bluegoat]

This thread is facinating. I held off reading the later books with DS until he was a little bit older. the Long Winter is grim. I am still struck by the Wilder boys hoarding seed wheat in the walls while they knew people around them were starving. The fact that this selfishness is never commented on is amazing to me.

D

 

I think people were faced with these scenarios much more than we are today.  If they had distributed it to everyone who needed it, everyone still would have been starving.  People in these situations are far more utilitarian than we are typically comfortable with.

[ErinE]

This thread is facinating. I held off reading the later books with DS until he was a little bit older. the Long Winter is grim. I am still struck by the Wilder boys hoarding seed wheat in the walls while they knew people around them were starving. The fact that this selfishness is never commented on is amazing to me.

D

 

Without seed, there would be no crop to put in the ground in the spring. Then everyone would have starved for another year. I can understand why they hid the wheat and I can also understand why Charles Ingalls stole some.

[dirty ethel rackham]

This thread is facinating. I held off reading the later books with DS until he was a little bit older. the Long Winter is grim. I am still struck by the Wilder boys hoarding seed wheat in the walls while they knew people around them were starving. The fact that this selfishness is never commented on is amazing to me.

D

I don't think that is a particularly fair characterization of the events. Almanzo was the one who hid his wheat because he was afraid his brother, Royal would sell it out from under him. Almanzo wanted to be a farmer. That was a consistent theme throughout the books.

 

Almanzo was not aware of how bad things were for the other townspeople -he assumed they had stored up enough supplies for the winter. It wasn't until Pa came in and found the hidden seed wheat did he grasp how bad off everyone was. Almanzo then risked his life in the brutal conditions to search for the man who also had seed. And he wouldn't accept any money for it. He just wasn't willing to give up his future crop. Not a choice everyone would have made

 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[FaithManor]

And the reality is that if, as Almanzo assumed, there were other families in the town that were as bad off as the Ingalls, then his seed wheat would not outlast the winter, they would still starve, and he would have no crop. He was just being practical about it, and in the end, he and Cap Garland risked their lives to get a substantial amount of wheat from another farmer who had already produced a crop and not only had tremendous wheat put away to sell in the spring but his seed wheat as well. They paid a rather premium dollar, back in the day, for the wheat they bought, and then refused to take money for it. That is a very humanitarian gesture right there. It was a large dollar amount he was out, and yet a young man just trying to get started like everyone else.

 

I am sure it impressed pa, and it definitely had an influence on the courting. Ma was adamantly opposed to any man courting Laura before she turned 18 or graduated, but Pa allowed Almanzo to come around before she had turned 16, and actively encouraged it against Ma's wishes. I don't know if he felt he owed Almanzo a daughter for saving their lives, or if it was the fact that the young man impressed him so much he thought he would be a good husband for her, or a combination of both. In Laura's personal writings it is noted she had her heart set on Cap Garland first until he took up with Mary Power. Had Cap nodded her way, Almanzo might not have had a chance.

 

The thing that just chaps my hide about Pa was he knew the reputation for the severity of Dakota winters, he knew he didn't have enough food stored up and would be dependent on the grocery store being well stocked, and he knew that neither the claim shanty nor the building in town were adequately insulated. They had the money to go back "east" (ie. Iowa where he could have likely found work given his handiness, work ethic, and potential references from the railroad, and in a more settled area Ma and Laura could take in sewing for pay), but god forbid they take any of that money they set aside for Mary's "college" in order to keep the family safe and fed. And then when they were hoping to find some groceries after that first really bad snowing in, they gushed to Mary how sorry they were they might have to dip into her college money, but to be certain they'd pay her back!!! :banghead:  :banghead: :banghead:  

 

If they'd used that money to buy the supplies to fix up the house, to buy supplies to begin with, they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. It just staggers the imagination that favoritism towards Mary was so darn strong that it was worth risking the very lives of the family so she could go to school.

 

Pa knew it was going to be bad. He even told Laura that he believed what the Native Americans said and was very concerned about how fortified the animals' dens had become. Yet he didn't go buy out beans, potatoes, wheat, coal, etc. from the store with that money nor get them out of there while the going was good.

 

It was stupid. And the whole darn time, the whole time, that money wasn't for tuition or books because that was paid for by the state. It was all of her to have fancy clothes, and a beautiful new trunk to take to school, hoops, and train tickets!!! Her fancy duds were worth risking everything for, and that makes me think that Ma and Pa were a bit addled in the head by the time the Long Winter occurred, especially considering the fact that they refused to butcher that calf or the cow in order to keep everyone from starving. It was even worth the very life of a pregnant woman. Though not mentioned in the books, it is known that they harbored a young couple, the wife pregnant, in that store front for the winter.

 

Almanzo did fine. Pa and Ma were looney toons.

[LucyStoner]

Faith, IIRC the money that Almanzo and the other guy paid the farmer with the wheat wasn't theirs. They got the money from the shop owner and then went and fetched it at great personal risk. They refused to take payment for going to get it. The shopkeeper tried to mark it up WAY past the price he had, through Almanzo, paid. The men in the town made it clear to the shop owner that if he did that, he'd regret it and he agreed to sell it closer to his cost. The men then haggled over who could buy how much based on what each family had available to them to eat besides the wheat. Pa had quite little and was able to buy quite a bit whereas those with fuller pantries were allowed to buy less. This stuck with me because it betrays the libertarian propaganda Rose wove in and underscores the historically accurate populism of the time and place.

[FaithManor]

Faith, IIRC the money that Almanzo and the other guy paid the farmer with the wheat wasn't theirs. They got the money from the shop owner and then went and fetched it at great personal risk. They refused to take payment for going to get it. The shopkeeper tried to mark it up WAY past the price he had, through Almanzo, paid. The men in the town made it clear to the shop owner that if he did that, he'd regret it and he agreed to sell it closer to his cost. The men then haggled over who could buy how much based on what each family had available to them to eat besides the wheat. Pa had quite little and was able to buy quite a bit whereas those with fuller pantries were allowed to buy less. This stuck with me because it betrays the libertarian propaganda Rose wove in and underscores the historically accurate populism of the time and place.

Oops, you are right. I forgotten that part.

 

Still they risked their lives to save everyone, but Pa wasn't willing to risk clothes money or a cow to save his family. I don't get it.

 

Thanks for correcting this part.

[Carol in Cal.]

Remember that scene in the beginning of the show where Melissa Gilbert runs down a grassy hill and as her braids fly up, it freezes the frame?  That was filmed in the Sierra Nevada Mountains here in CA, and the property is for sale.  I've seen it; it's beautiful.  But you can only get there for half the year or less.

 

On this link, scroll down to the 'Sardine Meadow' property:

 

http://www.cowdenrealty.com/eaglemeadows.html

 

Unconsciously I never understood how tall prairie grass was until I was an adult.  All the meadows I ever saw had grass a maximum of about 2 feet tall.  Picturing the 6-10 foot grasses changes the whole 'feel' of these and other pioneer books for me.  I never really imagined grass that you couldn't even see over.  Not just a sea of grass, but a sea of grass over your head.  Wow.  And this would make prairie fires even worse.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Guest]

Yes! Really tall praries are, imo, terrifying. You can be standing right next to someone and not even know it. Think corn field, but denser!

[LucyStoner]

 

Still they risked their lives to save everyone, but Pa wasn't willing to risk clothes money or a cow to save his family. I don't get it.

 

 

I don't get it either but I remember it is another example of our modern eyes and an old fashioned set of values.  

 

Also, I can understand the deep, urgent longing to both take care of and give all that you can to a child with a disability.  I can also recall reading about the immense pressure to look right for schools above or beyond the local one room schoolhouse.  Some schools definitely expected/required a certain minimum standard of dress.  

 

Still, yeah.  I would definitely NOT starve all my children over keeping up appearances at school for one child.  It is a fairly difficult thing to understand.  

Edited March 11, 2016 by LucyStoner

[MrsWeasley]

I just picked up Pioneer Girl from the library. WTM book club?

[Shelly in IL]

Ok - how weird is it that I'm enthralled with this thread. I'm impressed with everyone's knowledge!

[staceyobu]

Would someone give me some examples of the Libertarian propaganda?

 

I've read the series several times and don't really know what you all are talking about...

[PineFarmMom]

Wow. After googling Rose's name I discovered she hung with Ayn Rand but was maybe not extreme enough for Rand. I'm really out of it!! I had no idea about her libertarian views...I only understand libertarian politics to a basic degree. I want to rewind and romanticize those books again. I prefer my idyllic childhood views of it all!! Haha

[staceyobu]

Wow. After googling Rose's name I discovered she hung with Ayn Rand but was maybe not extreme enough for Rand. I'm really out of it!! I had no idea about her libertarian views...I only understand libertarian politics to a basic degree. I want to rewind and romanticize those books again. I prefer my idyllic childhood views of it all!! Haha

Most of my knowledge of libertarian philosophy is from Parks & Rec, lol.

 

But, isn't it heavily debated how much of a role Rose had in editing/writing the books?

[LucyStoner]

Would someone give me some examples of the Libertarian propaganda?

 

I've read the series several times and don't really know what you all are talking about...

 

It can be subtle but it's there and if you look at earlier and later rewrites, the libertarian-ism dialed up a little.  It is for instance glossed over that the Ingalls benefited considerably from government expenditures like Mary's college and policies like uh, yeah, all that essentially free land. Yet it is reiterated that the government is at fault for various misfortunes (like enforcing treaty boundaries at least for a minute or so). There are MANY other examples and many long papers one can find about the presence of libertarian values and the addition of more due to Rose.  I could write an essay here and now but I only have a few minutes break from coaching spelling.   :p

 

Yeah, I have probably read a little too much LOHTP on top of reading a ton of other related materials and research on the family. The odd thing is that while I have always loved and been fascinated by parts of the books, I have been also always been a bit of a LHOTP skeptic.  I was a late reader who rapidly became an advanced reader and so these books were among the very first books I ever read and then I started reading about the books and that was a sizable chunk of my life that I loop back to a lot.  

Edited March 12, 2016 by LucyStoner

[FaithManor]

And it should be noted that Rose was kind of all over the map politically before she finally landed libertarian and stayed. She had a strong flirtation with communism that ended after she spent some time in Russia.

 

Here is a blog with some quotes from letters between Rand and Lane that are very interesting.

 

http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/17/the-new-yorker-libertarian-founding-moth

 

Here is an article she published in 1936.

 

http://www.panarchy.org/lane/liberty.html

 

This article - if you wade down quite a ways, highlights Rose's run ins with the government as she was considered, for a time, a subversive.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/10/wilder-women

 

[Sherry in OH]

...

The thing that just chaps my hide about Pa was he knew the reputation for the severity of Dakota winters, he knew he didn't have enough food stored up and would be dependent on the grocery store being well stocked, and he knew that neither the claim shanty nor the building in town were adequately insulated. They had the money to go back "east" (ie. Iowa where he could have likely found work given his handiness, work ethic, and potential references from the railroad, and in a more settled area Ma and Laura could take in sewing for pay), but god forbid they take any of that money they set aside for Mary's "college" in order to keep the family safe and fed. And then when they were hoping to find some groceries after that first really bad snowing in, they gushed to Mary how sorry they were they might have to dip into her college money, but to be certain they'd pay her back!!! :banghead:  :banghead: :banghead:  

 

If they'd used that money to buy the supplies to fix up the house, to buy supplies to begin with, they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. It just staggers the imagination that favoritism towards Mary was so darn strong that it was worth risking the very lives of the family so she could go to school.

 

Pa knew it was going to be bad. He even told Laura that he believed what the Native Americans said and was very concerned about how fortified the animals' dens had become. Yet he didn't go buy out beans, potatoes, wheat, coal, etc. from the store with that money nor get them out of there while the going was good.

 

It was stupid. And the whole darn time, the whole time, that money wasn't for tuition or books because that was paid for by the state. It was all of her to have fancy clothes, and a beautiful new trunk to take to school, hoops, and train tickets!!! Her fancy duds were worth risking everything for, and that makes me think that Ma and Pa were a bit addled in the head by the time the Long Winter occurred, especially considering the fact that they refused to butcher that calf or the cow in order to keep everyone from starving. It was even worth the very life of a pregnant woman. Though not mentioned in the books, it is known that they harbored a young couple, the wife pregnant, in that store front for the winter.

 

Almanzo did fine. Pa and Ma were looney toons.

 

To be fair, the winter of 1880-81 was one of the worst winters in U.S. history.  The blizzards started in October and didn’t let up until May.  The Ingalls family was not alone in being unprepared.  The settlers were counting on that modern innovation, the railroad, to bring in needed supplies.   By the time they realized the trains weren’t coming, it was too late to leave.  The stores sold out of food and burnable items quickly.  They hadn't had much to begin with as they were expecting shipments when the first storms hit.

 

I view Charles not killing the cow and calf in much the same light as Almanzo not wanting to sell his seed wheat.  The livestock was the family’s most valuable asset.  The family’s long-term survival depended on those animals.  

 

To get an idea of how deep the snow was, look at this image on this site. http://boingboing.net/2012/12/11/the-meteorology-of-little-hous.html

[gardenmom5]

This thread is facinating. I held off reading the later books with DS until he was a little bit older. the Long Winter is grim. I am still struck by the Wilder boys hoarding seed wheat in the walls while they knew people around them were starving. The fact that this selfishness is never commented on is amazing to me.

D

 

 

you haven't done much farming in primitive conditions have you.

ok - so they give people their seed wheat to eat.  come spring - what do they plant?  come fall - what do they harvest?  come next winter - what do they EAT? 

 

this is the reality in some parts of the world today - eat the seed and starve next year, or starve this year, maybe survive, and hopefully have a better crop next year.  in those times, seed was a big deal - you couldn't just go buy it.  you'd have to hope your local grange/store was able to get some in -and that you had enough money to buy some.  sometimes that local grange was a good 20 - 30 MILES and you'd need to take a pack animal - which may have starved to death too - to haul it back.

[Valley Girl]

you haven't done much farming in primitive conditions have you.

ok - so they give people their seed wheat to eat.  come spring - what do they plant?  come fall - what do they harvest?  come next winter - what do they EAT? 

 

this is the reality in some parts of the world today - eat the seed and starve next year, or starve this year, maybe survive, and hopefully have a better crop next year.  in those times, seed was a big deal - you couldn't just go buy it.  you'd have to hope your local grange/store was able to get some in -and that you had enough money to buy some.  sometimes that local grange was a good 20 - 30 MILES and you'd need to take a pack animal - which may have starved to death too - to haul it back.

 

Very true. I've been thinking about this because I was a little surprised at the condemnation levied against Almanzo for not distributing his  wheat to the town. Imagine you're there--snowed in for weeks at a time. Virtually cut off from the world. No such thing as a telephone or TV. How isolating that must be! How much would you really know about the state of your neighbors' pantries? The Wilders were well-provisioned. They may have assumed that their neighbors were likewise. Going by what's in the book, it wasn't until Pa showed up at their door with his bucket that they were confronted with the fact that people in town were starving. And then Almanzo DID SOMETHING about it at great risk to himself.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[PineFarmMom]

After reading some of the articles and understanding the impact Rose had on libertarian thinkers, the impact the LHoTP books had on people in the past, the independent spirit they fired in people, I'm starting to get a feel that there was a lot of disdain for them because of that. Those who were and are against a nanny state would tend to revere those writings (I'm one of those who are against so much govt.). Ronald Reagan was fond of the shows and maybe the books? I don't think people with any type of socialist or more-government leanings would appreciate those writings at all because of the independent, we-don't-need-government feel they had. And apparently they did have that impact in people. I know they gave me a desire to head out and have farm animals and a garden (I do.)

 

This is an opinion after a cursory overview. I plan to read more on it. I still have much respect for Ma and Pa and Laura, not so much for Rose.

 

I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather die in a Long Winter than live in an Orwellian 1984. I think that is how a lot of people feel.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Texas T

[katilac]

Completely unrelated but same for Kirsten Dunst. Brad Pitt: interview with a vampire. She was 11 and he was 29...BLECH! As a Mom, I would have a very hard time with that.

 

Gross! 

 

Even as a kid, Dean Butler never looked right as Almonzo to me. I guess he wasn't quite hot enough in my eyes to be the man Laura raved about.

 

And he had that round face and stockier build, whereas Almanzo had a naturally slender build and face. 

 

Except Laura on TV kissed a boy seasons earlier. It was a quick peck (and he kissed her I think), but it was on the lips. It was some boy she had a crush on and they would hunt frogs together.....

 

 

Huh, she said in an interview that Almanzo was the first kiss and she was so nervous. Maybe it was because the first one was clearly a 'kid' thing, whereas Dean Butler was a grown man. 

[LucyStoner]

After reading some of the articles and understanding the impact Rose had on libertarian thinkers, the impact the LHoTP books had on people in the past, the independent spirit they fired in people, I'm starting to get a feel that there was a lot of disdain for them because of that. Those who were and are against a nanny state would tend to revere those writings (I'm one of those who are against so much govt.). Ronald Reagan was fond of the shows and maybe the books? I don't think people with any type of socialist or more-government leanings would appreciate those writings at all because of the independent, we-don't-need-government feel they had. And apparently they did have that impact in people. I know they gave me a desire to head out and have farm animals and a garden (I do.)

 

This is an opinion after a cursory overview. I plan to read more on it. I still have much respect for Ma and Pa and Laura, not so much for Rose.

 

I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather die in a Long Winter than live in an Orwellian 1984. I think that is how a lot of people feel.

That's a broad brush and not at all accurate. I know people of all political persuasions who enjoyed the books.

 

I didn't enjoy the show because it was truthfully barely related to the books beyond the characters' names and a few miscellanous details. there were some episodes that were more in line with the books but a lot of episodes really projected modern values about things like race, gender, class, adoption and politics into the story. They are a whole different beast than the books.

 

Also, it really doesn't take much to see the irony in the "we don't need government vibe" of the book from a family who was heavily benefited by the government. There's of bit of hypocrisy going on with it.

Edited March 12, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Meriwether]

 

 

To get an idea of how deep the snow was, look at this image on this site. http://boingboing.net/2012/12/11/the-meteorology-of-little-hous.html

 

That picture is amazing. I showed it to the kids this morning.

[gardenmom5]

Very true. I've been thinking about this because I was a little surprised at the condemnation levied against Almanzo for not distributing his  wheat to the town. Imagine you're there--snowed in for weeks at a time. Virtually cut off from the world. No such thing as a telephone or TV. How isolating that must be! How much would you really know about the state of your neighbors' pantries? The Wilders were well-provisioned. They may have assumed that their neighbors were likewise. Going by what's in the book, it wasn't until Pa showed up at their door with his bucket that they were confronted with the fact that people in town were starving. And then Almanzo DID SOMETHING about it at great risk to himself.

 

someone upthread posted a link to frontier house.  three families - five months (spring to fall) and one thing they have to do is put aside enough provisions/wood to survive the winter.  they were judged by experts.  only one of the families had (barely) enough wood.  the others ddn't have remotely enough.  it's really easy to underestimate - especailly for those new to frontier living (even then , you had city dwellers who moved to the frontier and it was a new experience.)

[PineFarmMom]

That's a broad brush and not at all accurate. I know people of all political persuasions who enjoyed the books.

 

I didn't enjoy the show because it was truthfully barely related to the books beyond the characters' names and a few miscellanous details. there were some episodes that were more in line with the books but a lot of episodes really projected modern values about things like race, gender, class, adoption and politics into the story. They are a whole different beast than the books.

 

Also, it really doesn't take much to see the irony in the "we don't need government vibe" of the book from a family who was heavily benefited by the government. There's of bit of hypocrisy going on with it.

I'm reading more as I have time. I do agree that Rose was a hypocrite and I'm really not crazy about her as a person. She lacked the character of her family. I still believe some people despise the idea of the independent pioneer spirit that those books encourage. I see too much of an undercurrent, politically, to believe otherwise.

[ktgrok]

I'm reading more as I have time. I do agree that Rose was a hypocrite and I'm really not crazy about her as a person. She lacked the character of her family. I still believe some people despise the idea of the independent pioneer spirit that those books encourage. I see too much of an undercurrent, politically, to believe otherwise.

 

I've never heard of any one disliking them for that. I've heard people not liking Ma for being cold, or getting upset about Jack being sold/dying. But that's it. I adore the books, and I'm so far left I'm nearly off the charts. I LOVE me some social safety nets. But that has nothing to do with me liking the books. You can be in favor of government social programs and growing your own garden. They are not mutually exclusive. 

[Tsuga]

Without seed, there would be no crop to put in the ground in the spring. Then everyone would have starved for another year. I can understand why they hid the wheat and I can also understand why Charles Ingalls stole some.

 

In addition, hoarding as a response to starving is almost an unconscious or irresistible impulse.