Jewish Sedar Meal.....questions for Jews or others who have done this

[Ottakee]

Our church is offering a Sedar meal on Good Friday after our regular service Friday evening.

 

I am interested in taking our entire family.

 

I was just wondering what this involves.  Are practicing Jews OK with Christians celebrating this meal?  I think it would be very rich in history and culture and symbolism for my kids and help them understand the Bible better.

 

Also, if there are any Jews here, do the priests still practice all of the sacrifices listed in the Pentateuch (do I have that right?)?  I am reading through the Bible in a year right now and finding the laws very interesting.  I can see how the priests were medical and health department people of that day in addition to the religious leaders.

[maize]

Sacrifices have not been performed since the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem shortly after the time of Christ.

 

I'm not a Jew so I won't attempt to answer your other questions. But I will note that Passover this year actually falls about a month after Easter. Western tradition Christians use a different calendar system than do Jews to calculate the dates. Eastern tradition Christians also have their own calendar.

Edited March 6, 2016 by maize

[eternalsummer]

There is no temple, so there are no sacrifices

[eternalsummer]

Regarding Jews and their opinions of your having a Christian Seder (?), I dunno.  The Reform Jews I knew as a kid were happy to let anyone participate in a Seder, but they were *really* reform (the most liberal/non-orthodox Jews).  Even for them, though, I don't know that they'd be anything but disparaging if you told them you were having a Seder so you could teach your kids about how Jesus fits the prophecy or some such.  The Reform are pretty easygoing so they might laugh.

 

But, 2 Jews, 3 opinions, etc.  Ymmv.

[Lawana]

When this has been discussed before, it was brought up that Jews do find it rather offensive when others attempt to coopt Jewish practices. If I understand it correctly, the kinship Christians feel towards Jews is not reciprocated.

[maize]

I think an argument can be made for some Jewish traditions (including a Seder meal) having a place in Christian worship; the account of Jesus and his disciples celebrating the Passover is very much a part of Christian tradition.

 

I think it is good to acknowledge that the way Christians interpret many Biblical traditions is necessarily different from the way modern practicing Jews interpret those traditions. Christians have Jewish elements in our heritage but Jews do not have Christian elements in theirs. Attempts to Christianize Jewish traditions can be offensive, so I personally believe they should be approached carefully with clear delineation between Jewish tradition and any Christianized interpretation.

Edited March 7, 2016 by maize

[umsami]

Does your church do any sort of interfaith outreach?  You might have some local Rabbis who can advise/help/whatever.   I'd also venture to guess that a Mizrahi seder might have different traditional dishes vs. an Ashkenazi or Sephardic one.   Some things I'm sure are the same... but maybe not?... bitter herbs, the things dipped into the salt water, roasted egg, etc.

 

 

[Lawana]

I think an argument can be made for some Jewish traditions (including a Sedar meal) having a place in Christian worship; the account of Jesus and his disciples celebrating the Passover is very much a part of Christian tradition.

 

I think it is good to acknowledge that the way Christians interpret many Biblical traditions is necessarily different from the way modern practicing Jews interpret those traditions. Christians have Jewish elements in our heritage but Jews do not have Christian elements in theirs. Attempts to Christianize Jewish traditions can be offensive, so I personally believe they should be approached carefully with clear delineation between Jewish tradition and any Christianized interpretation.

Can you explain why you see it(including Jewish practices in Christian worship) that way? I would be interested in hearing the argument for that.

[JFSinIL]

Well, unless the church has some actual Jewish folks running the Seder, I'd skip it. I have been to a few Seders (my SIL was married to a Jewish man for a while - his brother also married a Catholic, much to their mom's chagrin but I digress) and it was very meaningful. BUT - Sussie (the Jewish grandma) knew exactly what she was doing in preparing the food etc. I think having a Seder without being Jewish just to have the experience might be kinda like if non-Catholics go to Mass and want to take Communion since it is "part of the experience".

 

Now you have me remembering what a tasty kugel Sussie would make. Need to find a recipe...

Edited March 7, 2016 by JFSinIL

[Tanaqui]

I believe the Samaritans still perform sacrifices at their mountain, but they're not really Jews, are they?

[catz]

We've had Jewish Seders in our UU. Led by Jewish leaders for outreach. I loved the experience and I'm glad our local Jewish community was open to it.

[JFSinIL]

We've had Jewish Seders in our UU. Led by Jewish leaders for outreach. I loved the experience and I'm glad our local Jewish community was open to it.

Yes, that is the way to do it.

[Pen]

My family has people who are from a variety of religious backgrounds as well as none.

 

I have experienced both a Christian church type Seder and home based Passover Seder, and did not find that they had much in common.

 

I do not think it true that "kinship" that Christians feel toward Jews is not reciprocated--the problem has seemed more often to be that Christians do not feel kinship toward Jews as Jews, but only as stepping stones on the way to Christianity.

 

I have a feeling that a Christian church doing a Seder, or your taking your family for the reasons you mention, might be received by some observant Jews in a similar way to what I guess  you, or if not you then other observant Christians I have known, might feel if a Muslim mosque held an Easter observance to show how Jesus was a prophet on the path preceding and leading up to the greater and final prophet Mohammed. eta: I'm thinking if someone wrote that the children experiencing Easter would be "rich in history and culture and help them understand the Koran better," it might be disturbing, especially if, perhaps, this were to be taking place after a large proportion of the world's Christians had been slaughtered in religious genocide. 

 

I do realize that you are trying to avoid being considered insensitive, but your post felt insensitive in the way it phrased the question as well as wondering if priests still perform all of the sacrifices.

 

I suggest that if you want you children to understand Judaism you try taking them to a temple and talking to the rabbi. (Not The Temple of the Bible, which as has been pointed out, was destroyed.)

Edited March 7, 2016 by Pen

[Joker]

Our Catholic church has one during Holy Week. It is ran by a deacon who grew up in a home with a practicing Jewish mother and a Catholic father. He takes it very seriously and we have found it moving.

[Alessandra]

Sacrifices have not been performed since the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem shortly after the time of Christ.

 

I'm not a Jew so I won't attempt to answer your other questions. But I will note that Passover this year actually falls about a month after Easter. Western tradition Christians use a different calendar system than do Jews to calculate the dates. Eastern tradition Christians also have their own calendar.

Samaritans -- who are sort of Jewish and sort of not Jewish -- still do a ritual Passover sacrifice. An Orthodox Jewish friend of mine saw them killing a sheep on a street in Brooklyn! But it is more common in Israel.

[Alessandra]

I gave very mixed feelings about Christian seders. I have been to several, by accident, after Maundy Thursday services while visiting churches. I think people really seem to enjoy them and feel a kinship with the past.

 

I have also been to regular family seders in observant, but not ultra-Orthodox families. My favorite part is the prayers when they are chanted in Hebrew, very haunting melodies. Also, there is special china and serving dishes, often with Jewish symbols. I know that food has been prepared more or less (depending on the family) according to dietary rules. The meal and prayers begin at a specific, announced time to the minute, depending on sunset that day. I guess I am saying that there are so many traditions that could be lost in a non-Jewish Seder. Which doesn't make it wrong, just something to be aware of.

 

Adding that a lot of secular Jewish families I know find holding a Seder complicated and don't do it, but are happy to be invited to other people's houses for holidays. Some of my nicest memories are at Sukkot, when you sit outside in a shelter -- sort of an arbor -- made of branches and look up through the roof to see the full October moon.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Alessandra

[maize]

Can you explain why you see it(including Jewish practices in Christian worship) that way? I would be interested in hearing the argument for that.

When Christians read the Bible as a Christian holy book, much of what we are reading about is Israelite/Jewish people, prophets, and traditions. All of that is a part of our heritage.

 

We tend to interpret it all however in the light of our Christian theology--so sacrifices under Mosaic law become a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Passover in Egypt is representative of Salvation through Christ, the elements of Christian Communion may derive from Passover traditions.

 

If we invoke these things as legitimate expressions of our own faith I do not think we dishonor the faith of another; the Jews do not have exclusive rights to that heritage (just as Christians do not have exclusive rights to interpret the life and mission of Jesus). We can't control whether or not someone takes offense, but I do not think choosing to use elements of Biblical Jewish tradition is inherently disrespectful.

 

Adopting and adapting modern Jewish traditions is more problematic in my eyes, those traditions have evolved separately from Christianity and do not rightly belong to any Christian heritage. I think contemporary traditions of any religion should be treated respectfully and not changed or co-opted to fit a different theology.

Edited March 7, 2016 by maize

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Sacrifices have not been performed since the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem shortly after the time of Christ.

 

I'm not a Jew so I won't attempt to answer your other questions. But I will note that Passover this year actually falls about a month after Easter. Western tradition Christians use a different calendar system than do Jews to calculate the dates. Eastern tradition Christians also have their own calendar.

 

Eastern Orthodox observe Pascha (Passover) after the Jewish Passover. This is why we do not always celebrate Pascha on the same day as Western churches.

[maize]

Eastern Orthodox observe Pascha (Passover) after the Jewish Passover. This is why we do not always celebrate Pascha on the same day as Western churches.

Thank you for clarifying; I had a vague recollection that Eastern churches did correlate somehow with the Jewish calendar for this celebration, but didn't remember the details. I knew they used a different calendar from Western churches. By after do you mean the Sunday immediately following the Jewish celebration?

 

I seem to remember a year or two ago (maybe three, my memory is faulty) the Jewish and Western Christian celebrations were in sync but I know that is a rare occurrence.

[kewb]

I do find it a bit off putting when non Jews run a seder. I still recall the year I had to explain to a coworker that the afikomen is not an egg. Her minister hid easter eggs for the children to find and called it the afikomen. If you want to experience a seder to experience what Jesus experienced then contact a Rabbi and attend a seder.

 

I have welcomed friends of all religions to share in our seder. I love sharing our seder table with all our friends just as I love joining my friends at their religious celebrations.

[Alessandra]

For most dates, Eastern Orthodox by and large use the same calendar as western Christians, but The Easter cycle is calculated differently. So Christmas, Presentation, Annunciation, etc are on the same dates. But the Easter cycle feasts can be different.

 

There are some Orthodox (typically a minority in most countries) who use an old, Julian calendar for everything. Their dates are always about 2 weeks after Gregorian calendar users. And, iirc, the main Coptic churches use the old calendar.

 

Here is one link, near top of google results. There are no doubt more explanations that the EO people here can give, and I am sure they know a lot more than I do.

 

http://usa.greekreporter.com/2015/04/05/why-orthodox-christian-easter-is-later-than-the-catholic-one/

Edited March 7, 2016 by Alessandra

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Thank you for clarifying; I had a vague recollection that Eastern churches did correlate somehow with the Jewish calendar for this celebration, but didn't remember the details. I knew they used a different calendar from Western churches. By after do you mean the Sunday immediately following the Jewish celebration?

 

I seem to remember a year or two ago (maybe three, my memory is faulty) the Jewish and Western Christian celebrations were in sync but I know that is a rare occurrence.

 

In 2015 East and West celebrated Pascha together. All Orthodox Churches follow the Julian calendar for Great Lent and Pascha. Some churches changed to a revised Julian calendar that aligns with the Gregorian calendar but many are still on the original Julian calendar which is why some of us celebrate Christmas on January 7th. Pascha is not always the first Sunday after Passover but it's always closely after.

[Ottakee]

I believe this will be Jewish leader run.

[Lawana]

When Christians read the Bible as a Christian holy book, much of what we are reading about is Israelite/Jewish people, prophets, and traditions. All of that is a part of our heritage.

 

We tend to interpret it all however in the light of our Christian theology--so sacrifices under Mosaic law become a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus, the Passover in Egypt is representative of Salvation through Christ, the elements of Christian Communion may derive from Passover traditions.

 

If we invoke these things as legitimate expressions of our own faith I do not think we dishonor the faith of another; the Jews do not have exclusive rights to that heritage (just as Christians do not have exclusive rights to interpret the life and mission of Jesus). We can't control whether or not someone takes offense, but I do not think choosing to use elements of Biblical Jewish tradition is inherently disrespectful.

 

Adopting and adapting modern Jewish traditions is more problematic in my eyes, those traditions have evolved separately from Christianity and do not rightly belong to any Christian heritage. I think contemporary traditions of any religion should be treated respectfully and not changed or co-opted to fit a different theology.

Thank you for taking the time to explain your position. I do think that sensitivity requires understanding how others perceive our actions, regardless of whether we intend offense or not.

[Guest]

We've had them before, performed by a messianic Jewish organization. It was worthwhile to attend as a Christian observance, I thought they explained the how and why of that application extremely well.

[Spryte]

Half of my family is Orthodox Jewish, and very, very conservative. They welcome visitors to meals and homes, are very open to explaining practices etc. I am not sure how they would feel about non-Jews practicing this, and I think to do it well, you'd need some guidance from a Jewish group willing to share their traditions.

[eternalsummer]

I do find it a bit off putting when non Jews run a seder. I still recall the year I had to explain to a coworker that the afikomen is not an egg. Her minister hid easter eggs for the children to find and called it the afikomen. If you want to experience a seder to experience what Jesus experienced then contact a Rabbi and attend a seder.

 

I have welcomed friends of all religions to share in our seder. I love sharing our seder table with all our friends just as I love joining my friends at their religious celebrations.

 

lol @ the egg afikomen

[Guest]

In 2015 East and West celebrated Pascha together. All Orthodox Churches follow the Julian calendar for Great Lent and Pascha. Some churches changed to a revised Julian calendar that aligns with the Gregorian calendar but many are still on the original Julian calendar which is why some of us celebrate Christmas on January 7th. Pascha is not always the first Sunday after Passover but it's always closely after.

 

If you click on this link:  http://www.antiochian.org/date-pascha-coming-years

you will see the dates where Western and Eastern Christianity are aligned for Easter and Pascha (names of same feast, respectively).

 

Some are the same date, most are a week apart, but some can be 6 weeks apart.  This year is one that has a wide separation of the dates.  About the time the West is celebrating Easter, the East is just getting rolling on Lent.  These years are the hardest for me.  But we do get a good deal on Cadbury eggs. 

[Nan in Mass]

My church does this. We have a number Jewish members who want their children to have one, so a local rabbi comes and does one. We usually wind up with some other Jewish people who don't belong to a temple as well. It is considered by everyone involved that I,ve talked to be shared history and an important reminder about slavery and freedom.

 

Nan

[eternalsummer]

I think accepting an invitation to a Jewish seder is a very different thing from creating and participating in a seder that is designed to be a Christian religious experience.  

[Spryte]

I think accepting an invitation to a Jewish seder is a very different thing from creating and participating in a seder that is designed to be a Christian religious experience.

Yes, I think so, too.

 

My sister would probably feel (I have not asked her outright) that there is room for both in the world, especially if one keeps the above in mind. But again - haven't asked her, and that would only be one person's feeling, anyway.

[Nan in Mass]

OP, trying to answer your first question - I,ve only been to the one at our church so I don,t have a lot of experience, but if you were coming to the one at our church, I would warn my children that the meal is long, questions will be asked of children, and that they are going to be eating bitter things that they might not like but that that is the point. Tell them that the meal is a long story with lots of participation and the point is to learn and remember this story and how important it is. I wouldn,t say the one at my church was easy for my children, being a long event involving strange food and reading aloud difficult names, but the event was very child-oriented, much more so than most of our church events. The child-orientedness meant that my children couldn't sit out the event with a book or pencil and paper discretely in their laps, the way they normally got through long adult sit-down things. It also meant they weren't bored.

 

Nan

[Lanny]

You might browse around this web site for some information. Possibly it will be helpful to you.

 

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/

 

 

ETA:  Here are the 15 steps of the Seder:

 

http://www.aish.com/h/pes/t/si/The-Passover-Seders-15-Steps.html?s=show

Edited March 7, 2016 by Lanny