When is normal behavior not normal anymore?

[PeterPan]

I think I've definitely mishandled his shutdowns - I always try to get him to come out and respond again, when I might need to just back off and let him decompress. Like he's so overwhelmed by whatever is going on that he can't deal/function and needs time to process/reduce stimuli.

 

We do allow him to color during church, but we also always try to talk him into his class. I need to just pack a bag with a snack or two, coloring stuff, and not even ask him to go to his class. When he reaches an overload point, I'll just take him to the hall and sit quietly with him. I already get enough looks and comments from people who wonder why I don't just force him into his class. I can sit in the hall with him to help him handle the environment better. Then as he learns to trust me, I can start teaching him coping skills. 

Is this kind of behavior typical of his agemates in that situation?  Are there enough kids in the class that you can say whether his behavior is typical for that age in that setting?  

 

I agree there's personality and just kids who are shy.  But once you are saying a dc gets overwhelmed, shuts down, hides under tables, and engages in escape behaviors (hitting, bolting, etc.), that's not normal.  And that's where you get evals and get that compared to his peers and let them sort it out.

 

You don't have to diagnose.  All you have to do is start seeing these behaviors enough and really watching them and noticing them so that THEY can diagnose or say it's nothing.  

 

I would call in EI.  He may qualify for OT or some other things that could improve your quality of life.

[Carol in Cal.]

In addition to all of the good advice in this thread, I would suggest reading and considering "The Out of Sync Child".  It covers sensory integration issues and how to address them.

 

My own daughter was 'resistant' on the SI scale, and I remember being very, very glad that she was a girl so I could easily dress her in all cotton knit all the time.  Until she was around 3 1/2 she couldn't stand denim, because it was too scratchy.   I think that for SI resistant boys some soft, new (still furry inside) sweat pants that don't have the elastic at the ankles would be the most comfortable 'normal' option for pants, and I'd also recommend being very careful about seams on socks and about socks working their way down into shoes, both of which are really hard on those kids.  

 

I talked with two OTs about our daughter, and they gave me things to try with her to expose her to sensations in a safe way.  So, for instance, we would sit by the lawn and I would run my hands through the grass and then run her feet through it, and smile.  (This was age 2 or so.)  She had her doubts but she got used to this eventually.  We made heavy use of the sandbox and sensory tables (full of dry beans or rice) at her preschool as well.  It was a happy day for me when she started to casually go barefoot at age 4.  

 

Regarding the meltdown thing, the standard techniques that others have referred to will help even if he has a sensory or spectrum disorder.  These are giving a heads up a few minutes before transitions, and preventing hunger and tiredness from becoming overwhelming.  The other things I would say is that at that age you really have to squat down to his level and catch his attention from close in.  Also, remember that he can hear you even if he is screaming.  You don't have to raise your voice, and assuming that you're down at his level you can tell him what he needs to hear, and he will hear it even if he can't act on it right way.  So continuing to project calm toward him is helpful to him.

 

[PeterPan]

Another option on the church school class might be you volunteering in the class and taking him out when needed. Perhaps that way he could get used to it.

Or make a social story about him going to class nicely.  Look up social stories.  They're basically just little books.  You could visit the class ahead and talk about where he sits, the fun things he will do, how he'll know when it's about over, what he can do if he feels unhappy or wants you or needs to go potty.  The teacher could spend some time outside of class pairing with him, so that when he goes to class she's familiar.  He could have an object to take or a person he knows who is assigned to him who can say let's take a walk and then come back so he's not disrupting the class.  I would *not* have that be mother, only because mom needs a break too!  So find another kind soul he can latch onto, someone with the right level of bubbling and personality.  

 

You can also set up a rewards system so he knows when he's good, he comes out and there's this extra special treat, say a snack.  He could have a token chart and the person assigned to him puts a token on every time he does something good in class.  Then when his token card is full, he comes out and gets the prize he was working toward.  You would have a little pile of choices like a tiny bag of candy, a new matchbox car, a big sticker, getting his preferred seat in the car, that kind of thing.  You would make it such that he always get enough tokens that he gets the prize so long as he's in the room.  

 

You can do this sort of differential rewarding, where you reward *improvement* even if it's not actually where you want the behavior.  So if he usually gets up and walks around the room or hides under tables *twice* in Sunday School, then he would earn his prize by only hiding under the tables or walking around *once*.  Or if he normally does that behavior 4 times in 30 minutes at SS, then you could reward doing it *3* times.  

 

Lots of ways to work on this.  But just to say oh mom go in and sit there and miss church and get no emotional support for herself, that doesn't teach him any good skills AND it doesn't help mom.  

[Pronghorn]

On the church school class thing, it seems to me he's young enough that you should not feel obligated to push him. I'm a Sunday school teacher, and there are much older kids (even fourth grade!) who don't feel comfortable enough to go to class. Perhaps you could start a social story to prepare him for class when he is "a little older." And then try when he is four or something. Three is quite young for independence, even if the kid is neurotypical.

 

If you get concerned about rewarding bad behavior and acting as an enabler of his meltdowns, then you can take charge more than you have. Instead of waiting for that moment when he seems overwhelmed and then taking him out, set a target time that he CAN manage and take him out at that time, even if he is not yet overwhelmed. And then tell him what a good job he did of keeping it together. So, perhaps ten minutes of the adult class, and then you take him out for a little break (or a long break). This way, you are in charge but you are setting him up for success. And you can gradually increase the time each week or month to help him extend his tolerance.

 

Rewards help some kids. For others (my child), rewards make things dramatically worse. Rewards can add anxiety and potential disappointment to an already overwhelming situation. And then there is the moment when the child decides he's not going to get the reward anyway, so why try to follow the behavior guidelines....

 

The advice to take care of yourself is important. However, that can look different for different people. Sometimes pushing things too fast can make things dramatically worse for the mom. (I know this by experience.) But you can be creative too in trying to find space to get your own support. Perhaps your husband can take your child out some of the time -- maybe take turns.

 

 

[mliss]

:grouphug:  I'm so sorry you're going through this.  Your experiences sound similar to what I went through with my DS and it was a truly intense and difficult time in my life.  Even though DS is 11 years old now I can make myself cry just by talking about his early years.

 

You've received lots of good advice here but one thing I wanted to mention is the possibility of adding a liquid omega-3 supplement to your son's diet.  I think DS was five years old when a practitioner recommend Metagenics OmegaGenics EPA-DHA 2325 liquid as a possible way to alleviate DS's tantrums.  Since I was desperate I bought the liquid and, with daily dosing, within three day DS started to act more calm and within a week the tantrums completely disappeared - unless I forgot to give him his omega-3s for two or three days that is  :001_rolleyes:   (Since then I've tried another brand of omega-3 and didn't notice a difference in effectiveness.)  DS still takes an omega-3 supplement, although he now can miss a day here and there without having a melt down.

 

Going to church classes with other children never worked well - and it still doesn't.  DS becomes overwhelmed by groups of high energy children that don't pay attention, so for years we had our own mini Bible class in the hall but, now that he is older, he mainly goes to the adult Sunday School class with me.  This was what I felt was right for us.  In my opinion, religion wasn't something I felt I should force on DS because, if he was miserable (not just an "I don't feel like going" but a deep-down-emotionally-distraught-miserable) then I assumed he would develop long lasting aversion to church settings.

 

Oh, and organic minimally processed food was / is important here too.  DS had some minor clothing issues.  Being worn in a woven wrap baby carrier (until age six even!) was helpful when DS was overwhelmed by being in large groups in an enclosed setting (like church).  Not leaving the house too often.  Buying a trampoline.  And trusting my instincts even when DH told me that DS was just trying to manipulate me. 

 

And that's all I have to add to all the supportive suggestions you've received so far.  Except more  :grouphug:

 

 

Edited March 7, 2016 by mliss

[PeterPan]

Yes, I agree with Pronghorn that rewards don't bring into reach a task that is out of reach.  However it *is* possible to incentivize behavior that *is* within reach.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[wintermom]

No, he can't tell me why. 

 

 

Does he indicate the sense that may be irritated, at least. For example, with loud noises even non-verbal children cover their ears. Bright lights they may cover their eyes or duck away from the light. I guess I'm directing you to perhaps try and find out if there is a pain in his belly, which is why he doesn't feel comfortable in pants, for example. Know what I mean?  We don't have a lot of pain receptors in our abdomen, so some of the pain is referred from other areas. He may not feel "pain" as such in his belly, rather bloating or pressure.  I was thinking of trying to track down any food related reasons for his behaviour. I don't know whether celiac ever manifests as abdominal pain.

[calihil]

My daughter is 7 and was like this when she was younger. I had people tell me over and over to cut dairy from her diet but I didn't want to because, well, that's hard! But I did two months ago (along with gluten and eggs because her eczema was bad, too) and she has reeeeally chilled out. She still has trouble paying attention, and I'm starting to supplement with magnesium to help with that, but overall she's so much better.

[Pen]

Could you try things like have a baby sitter ready to go before church? If ds is ready for church, sitter could go too and be ready to take him when/if he melts down so that you can have some church time? If ds is not ready to go, he can stay home with sitter. It sounds like you need some breaks is a big part of the problem.

 

I'm not sure that 3 year olds are generally ready for a class at church. At church's I have been to kids that young stay with their parents, or sometimes there has been a nursery, which mainly just has food, cots, some easy activities.  I can't recall 3 yo's being expected to get through sermons and Sunday school.

 

On pants, my ds is sensory seeking so opposite situation, but there are things like 100% cotton knit or cotton flannel pants that look okay, but feel more like PJs that might be an option.  My ds had a pair of 100% cotton jersey knit pants at one point when he was little that were a grey that made them look like pretty dressy flannel wool slacks, but they were just a soft and cozy cotton.

[Pen]

And, if money is the issue, I agree with OhElizabeth to seek Early Intervention as a way of possibly getting some answers. And maybe some help.

[Tsuga]

OP's son certainly needs extra support in doing what OP needs him to do. But the idea that there is one "truth" to the matter of labeling, diagnostics, and developmental norms rankles me. Choosing to get help via diagnosis is fine but that is not "the truth" of kids who are sensitive and high-strung, nor is my family's choice to live with ourselves and not seek labels but seek functional solutions "the truth".

 

Framing it in those terms puts an unnecessary moral dynamic of "ignoring the truth" or "being afraid of the truth" which I believe is unhelpful and, when applied to those who don't have the same cultural beliefs about developmental norms, can be harmful.

[mamashark]

 I don't know whether celiac ever manifests as abdominal pain.

 

Yes it can. And we have a family history of celiac, so it's a possibility. I never thought about abdominal pain being a possible cause for not liking pants - and if the pants are at all snug at the waist, he refuses to let me button or snap them and I never could figure out why. 

[mamashark]

OP's son certainly needs extra support in doing what OP needs him to do. But the idea that there is one "truth" to the matter of labeling, diagnostics, and developmental norms rankles me. Choosing to get help via diagnosis is fine but that is not "the truth" of kids who are sensitive and high-strung, nor is my family's choice to live with ourselves and not seek labels but seek functional solutions "the truth".

 

Framing it in those terms puts an unnecessary moral dynamic of "ignoring the truth" or "being afraid of the truth" which I believe is unhelpful and, when applied to those who don't have the same cultural beliefs about developmental norms, can be harmful.

 

Thank you for this comment!

 

And thank you to all who have given me great strategies and ideas. I have a lot of info to think about and process and in the end, regardless of what decision we make as a family, I have learned a lot and appreciate each person's input!

[Shellydon]

I would say not normal and time for some help.

[ElizaG]

He's got two older sisters and a younger brother and he plays nicely with them (well, mostly nicely, typical sibling stuff) and he's especially attached to his closest in age sister. When they have friends over, he plays with them too, but I don't see him directing play, interacting on his own outside of sibling stuff or parallel play. Without watching him play at the park without siblings I can't know for sure, but my gut says he'd play by himself or throw a fit for me to play with him. He'd be lost.

FWIW, this part seems very normal for a 3 year old (insofar as there's such a thing as 100% normal behavior at that age ;-) ). The textbooks put them right in the peak stage for parallel play, and it's typical for them to be more comfortable with siblings. So if it turns out that he doesn't want to play with strange children at the park, that would seem to me to point to absolutely nothing, except that he's probably not going to win the Mr. Congeniality award at the preschool pageant.

 

At this age, social development has historically taken place largely within the family, so it's understandable that little ones might feel quite literally "lost" without the special people they're attached to. But I do get the sense that some parents and professionals have taken on new expectations that are based on early entry into group care as the default.

 

When these sorts of issues come up, my children remember the boy in Patricia MacLachlan's "Three Names," who cried on the first day of school because he was only seven years old and had never been away from home before.

 

Also -- if you want to get a sense of how your son is doing in terms of developing fundamental social awareness and motivation (vs. just meeting certain cultural norms), this older RDI book is very good, whether his current difficulties turn out to be diagnosable or not. I wish the authors were able to promote their findings more widely, as I'm sure that they could help many families with challenges other than ASD. The normal developmental process they describe is basically the "stage two" that the attachment parenting books never talked about. Which is quite a big omission, since it starts within the first year of life.

 

Relationship Development Intervention With Young Children

[Incognito]

FWIW, whatever the underlying cause, it sounds to me like your son is throwing tantrums because of anxiety.  In our house, I have a child like this who has been this way since birth.  It is beyond exhausting.  There is an ebb and a flow, but we don't know the exact triggers.  My child who does this explodes when they are anxious or overwhelmed by their feelings (and when they can't remember what kind of apple they like... ;) ).  

 

For us, it has worked best to be very free-flowing AND very strict. For reference, we are at 4yo now.  

 

Clothes/bedtime/daily tasks that MUST occur are very matter of factly done.  We get dressed first thing - so it is not a fight when we need to go somewhere.  It is just a fight right away, but then that fight is out of the way. Well, there are still the shoes and jacket, but... small victories?   ;)  Bedtime - I have two books I read with my child.  If they get ready nicely (relatively nicely, only one or two reminders), we read both books.  If they are too tired to control themselves I drop the longer book (chapter), with a mention that their behavior is telling me they are too tired to read books.  I remind that we will still read the short book if they are able to control themselves.  It works 85% of the time now, so I call that a big win.

 

For church, I can totally understand how this happens because this type of behavior backs a parent into the corner.  I've had to step back and hit the reset button on a lot of things like that.  I don't know what the right answer is for you, but a possible option would be to remove the idea of sunday school from the equation (reduce anxiety), and expect quiet behavior sitting with you in class.  If it doesn't happen, out in the hall with DH instead of you?  Also, FWIW, I never ever bribed my other children.  Was morally opposed.  I will bribe this child to do things and it works where nothing else will (and I am able to get rid of the bribe after a few successes for most issues).

 

Ultimately, I often have to step back and remind myself that stopping the screaming or being polite or whatever really isn't the goal - my child developing self control is the goal, so I have to make choices that lead me towards a long term gain even if the short term is more painful.

 

HTH

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Incognito

[mamashark]

FWIW, this part seems very normal for a 3 year old (insofar as there's such a thing as 100% normal behavior at that age ;-) ). The textbooks put them right in the peak stage for parallel play, and it's typical for them to be more comfortable with siblings. So if it turns out that he doesn't want to play with strange children at the park, that would seem to me to point to absolutely nothing, except that he's probably not going to win the Mr. Congeniality award at the preschool pageant.

 

At this age, social development has historically taken place largely within the family, so it's understandable that little ones might feel quite literally "lost" without the special people they're attached to. But I do get the sense that some parents and professionals have taken on new expectations that are based on early entry into group care as the default.

 

When these sorts of issues come up, my children remember the boy in Patricia MacLachlan's "Three Names," who cried on the first day of school because he was only seven years old and had never been away from home before.

 

Also -- if you want to get a sense of how your son is doing in terms of developing fundamental social awareness and motivation (vs. just meeting certain cultural norms), this older RDI book is very good, whether his current difficulties turn out to be diagnosable or not. I wish the authors were able to promote their findings more widely, as I'm sure that they could help many families with challenges other than ASD. The normal developmental process they describe is basically the "stage two" that the attachment parenting books never talked about. Which is quite a big omission, since it starts within the first year of life.

 

Relationship Development Intervention With Young Children

 

interesting, thanks for this resource!

[wintermom]

OP's son certainly needs extra support in doing what OP needs him to do. But the idea that there is one "truth" to the matter of labeling, diagnostics, and developmental norms rankles me. Choosing to get help via diagnosis is fine but that is not "the truth" of kids who are sensitive and high-strung, nor is my family's choice to live with ourselves and not seek labels but seek functional solutions "the truth".

 

Framing it in those terms puts an unnecessary moral dynamic of "ignoring the truth" or "being afraid of the truth" which I believe is unhelpful and, when applied to those who don't have the same cultural beliefs about developmental norms, can be harmful.

 

Undiagnosed diseases, such as celiac, can become life threatning. If there were a "truth" of such a disease, then it's the parent's responsibility to try and support discovering underlying physical problems with a minor child. As is said time and again, on this forum and in many other places, the parent knows their child best. Medical professions can only work with information they can collect themselves, combined with information provided through the observations of people close to the patient. 

[Tiramisu]

Just my experience.

 

My kid who wouldn't wear clothes at three, and beyond, but who was emotionally very even keeled turned out fine.

 

My kid who had meltdowns everyday at three ended up with a dx ten years later. I wish I got intervention for her back then, even though the ped, dh, and many others reassured me she would grow out of it. I don't believe any evaluations or interventions would have hurt her even if she wound up growing out of it.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Tiramisu

[Susan in TX]

My child who had similar problems at age 3 was finally diagnosed as being on the autism spectrum and bi-polar at age 14. I think that the most important thing is to get the support YOU need. No matter what the cause of the behavior, dealing with a child like this day in and day out is very hard. I would try to find a licensed professional counselor or a family counselor.

 

As far as dealing with the meltdowns I would structure life in such as way as to avoid the triggers as much as possible. If the pants are the problem, let him go without them at home. If you have to go somewhere, let him choose which pair he wants to wear. Please understand that your child isn't misbehaving, he is simply not able to regulate his emotions and is easily frustrated.

 

Susan in TX

[dirty ethel rackham]

I haven't read all of the other posts. I do think the threes are much harder than the twos (partly because they really haven't outgrown the behavior, but we have higher expectations since they have more words.)  But, from what you describe, that doesn't sound like what you are dealing with here.  BTDT.  Your kid sounds a lot like K as a little one.

 

K was a particularly intense baby and toddler.  The threes and fours were even more challenging.  It took until K was 6 that we figured out that K had auditory and sensory processing issues, both of which are often co-morbid with being on the autism spectrum.  Until then, it was seen as a "poor parenting" issue.  (Gee, why then is my oldest such an easy kid?)   K does not have an autism diagnosis as they don't fully match the diagnostic criteria, but does have a lot of the factors.  We did a ton of therapies to help K's nervous system better organize the sensory soup we all live in each day.  We happened upon a neurodevelopmental approach which suited us well ... no car schlepping 2-3 times a week which was a large source of tantrums.  We did a targeted program at home developed by our neuraldevelopmental evaluator which was based on targeted short-duration activities several times a day.  We did see a dramatic change in K after about 6 months.

 

I would go with your gut on this one.  I would look for an evaluation first to see what you are dealing with.  Then you can look into what options you have available.