ODD/ADHD/dyslexia and attitude

[mamamoose]

This is my first post. I have only been homeschooling since October of this year. I pulled my kids out of school because my son was diagnosed with dyslexia and the school essentially refused to help him. There is a lot more to the story, but suffice it to say, its been a challenge.

 

I have 3 kids, age 10, 8, and 5. My 10 year old does very well in all subjects and is self-motivated for the most part, and she works independently in everything except math (we chose right start math, so it requires teaching for every lesson). My youngest is also self motivated but obviously she doesn't read yet and requires a lot of interaction every day for every subject. I have tried having my oldest teach her math and reading but it never works and ends up in them fighting. 

 

My son is 8 and has adhd and possibly odd, as well as dyslexia. He is technically in the second grade but reads at a K/1 level and is soooooo challenging. We are using the Barton Reading and Spelling program as a tutoring program, and my mom tutors him 3 days a week. I use AAR 5 days a week. I read everything to him, from his science books to history, and everything in between. He can't even look at a page of work without freaking out in math and he tells me he hates everything all day long. All. Day. Long. I have no time to myself and no time for my girls because he sucks all of it up. He is the most negative person I have been around ever. I have thought about counseling, but its 70 miles one way, so its not all that feasible long term. 

 

All he wants to do all day is zone out on his iPod, doing whatever strikes his fancy. I have no idea how to fix the problem. I have taken the iPod away and he just refuses to even understand the consequence. He literally told me, the last time, "That's just more time for me to torture you." 

 

I feel tapped out. HELP!!!

[maize]

Have you tried medication for the ADHD?

 

I have an 8 year old diagnosed ADHD, ODD, dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia. The recommendation from our neuropsychologist was to work on getting the ADHD under control before focusing on academics.

 

Things that help her so far: lots and lots and lots of physical activity, lots of audiobooks, make sure she eats protein and snacks throughout the day.

 

We've got a long way to go, I'm right there in the trenches with you; parenting and teaching these kids is HARD.

[poppy]

That is really hard.  I think he sounds unhappy. I think the above poster is on the right track-   scale back on academics and concentrate on his well being.   Move the body, listen to books (don't pressure to read, audiobooks COUNT!) If counseling isn't an option, medication might help him.  I say that as someone whose kid is on zoloft . It was something I never said I'd do, but,  it makes a huge difference in her ability to cope with frustration and setbacks. 

 

You have my sympathy, my kid is dyslexic and ADHD and it is a daily struggle.

[maize]

You might try an online math program, some kids respond better to a computer teaching them than to mom teaching.

[maize]

 

All he wants to do all day is zone out on his iPod, doing whatever strikes his fancy. I have no idea how to fix the problem. I have taken the iPod away and he just refuses to even understand the consequence. He literally told me, the last time, "That's just more time for me to torture you."

 

 

A child with ADHD does not refuse to understand consequences. They have a deficit in the part of the brain that regulates impulse control, among other things. Self regulation is extremely difficult and cause and effect don't always compute.

 

This is a good site for parents of ADHD kids: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd

[maize]

By the way, you might want to cross-post on the Special Needs board, there are lots of parents over there homeschooling kids with challenges similar to yours. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/32-special-needs-board/

[Targhee]

A child with ADHD does not refuse to understand consequences. They have a deficit in the part of the brain that regulates impulse control, among other things. Self regulation is extremely difficult and cause and effect don't always compute.

 

This is a good site for parents of ADHD kids: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd

Yes, this!!

 

I do empathize with feeling depleted and guilty because one child exhausts your resources (time, energy, patience, etc). I have 3 with ADHD, and one who may be ODD but I didn't pursue the diagnosis. He requires more than the other three combined. God knows I love him, and blessed me with him in my life so that I can learn.

 

One thing that took me a long time to understand, really understand, and until I did understand caused much damage in our relationship, was the notion that "kids do well if they can." That's the mantra of Ross Greene, author of The Explosive Child. He explains that no one wants to fail or do poorly, and the reason that kids (and adults) show maladaptive behaviors is that they are faced with a situation or task which is beyond their current skill set to respond to adaptively - they have lagging skills and unsolved problems. I highly recommend the book, and much of it is to be found at his website LivesInTheBalance.org

 

It very well could be that his dyslexia, as well as lagging skills in self regulation, flexibility, adaptability, and other "soft" skills, is underneath the behaviors you're describing.

 

ETA: He might have anxiety about the dyslexia/reading, especially if he had negative experiences or felt shamed or embarrassed at school and especially because ADHD is often comorbid with anxiety/depression. This might be an unsolved problem triggering his "freak outs."

Edited March 1, 2016 by Targhee

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Good advice in the responses up thread.  Absolutely look at how to help with the ADHD first.  I also recommend reading The Dyslexic Advantage by Brock and Fernette Eide.

 

I will add a few more things:

 

1.  Set a time to work with him and stick with that time, no matter what gets done. Stop when the time is up and take care of your other kids.  Also set a little bit of time aside each day where you take a small break.  Make that time sacrosanct. 

 

2.  As maize said, if at all possible get your son involved in some daily outside, very physical activities, including times where he can be with other kids.  If you go with team sports be prepared to need to help him through sequencing what his duties are and get him some private one on one practice to learn more effectively.

 

3.  Keep his lessons very, very short, for now.  Math, for example.  Pick 5 problems and work on those 5 problems.  See if he can stay focused and willing long enough to do those 5 problems.  Do them on a dry erase board in bright colors if that helps.  If he sees that math won't last forever, it may help his motivation, and only having a small number of problems may give him a fighting chance at successfully learning the material before attention issues and possible depression undermine him.  Is he placed correctly?  Is the math over his head?  Don't be afraid to go way back to basics if he is struggling, or even leap into more interesting material but provide scaffolding for the computation side.  Giving him a feeling of success may help him to eventually be able to handle more.  For now, he needs successes more than volume of work.

 

4.  Your mom is tutoring him in Barton 3 times a week?  Is that going well?  If not, please ask her to keep Barton lessons short, too, if he is struggling with those.  With DD I used to have to break up lessons into 15-20 minutes a day, tops.  I had a hand written checklist of the letter segments of each lesson subsection in a sheet protector and every day I would show her what letter sections we were working to.  Seeing that it wouldn't go on forever helped her stay focused and motivated to get through the lesson.  

 

5.  Since you are having him tutored in Barton, dump all outside independent reading and dump AAR.  Just let Barton be his reading/spelling/writing instruction for now.  Everything else is audio books.  If possible, get him a Kindle and headsets so he can choose some of his own books to listen to.  Barton is supposed to replace all other Language Arts programs through Level 4.  Combining AAR and Barton can really confuse him and delay remediation.  You might also look at the Spelling Success card games.  On days when he is not tutoring Barton you and he could play those card games.  Let him teach you the lessons he is learning.  It might really boost his morale to be teaching you instead of the other way around.  http://www.spellingsuccess.com/

 

6.  Help him find a hobby and get him the instruction and support he needs to hone his skills for that hobby.

 

7.  Find other homeschoolers in your area and maybe set up some play dates and maybe a coffee chat or other just adult outing once in a while.

 

8.  Set up a checklist of things for him to do each day and review that checklist every morning.  Keep the list short and doable.  If he can see progress and have some successes his attitude may turn around some.

 

9.  Don't forget to make eye contact, smile encouragingly, reassure, support, etc.  You are exhausted and demoralized but so is he.  From his perspective, life may seem pointless and a huge struggle, no matter what he does.  You need to try and help him see that he is loved, he has purpose, he is capable and there are things out there that he will love to do.  It won't be easy but if you can it will help you both.

 

10.  Make sure you and your other kids also carve out time every day for exercise.  Make it a priority over heavy academics.  And make sure you are all eating healthy foods and snacks.  Don't wreck your health.  I realize this is easier said than done.

 

Huge, huge hugs.  You are not alone.  Post and skim through the Learning Challenges sub forum and the Special Needs forum.  There may be more helpful suggestions there.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

Edited March 1, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[nature girl]

Such good suggestions here. The only thing I would add is a recommendation to (yes) take away his iPod, or at least severely limit it, even if it does make life miserable for awhile. He's comparing the drudgery and hard work of reading and math to the easy, addictive fun of media, so of course he's rebelling against them. Media is especially addictive for our kids, and especially detrimental. I've always limited it for DD, and since diagnosis I've almost completely taken it away, except for a weekly family movie, and BrainPop.

 

I'll also say, you want to do whatever you can now to work on the ODD, before it turns more severe. His quote "That's just more time for me to torture you" really speaks to me, it shows he thinks of himself as a negative force in your life, which is so hard, you know? I find that the more I criticize DD, the more she acts up, so I just don't anymore (or I talk to her gently about issues.) Praise is so important for ADHD kids, especially when they're on the verge of ODD. I can see my DD's face light up when she's praised, she gets so incredibly happy, and I think thinking of herself as a good person has really helped her to try harder to limit the bad behaviors. Even if your DS doesn't show joy when he's praised, he's internalizing it, and I promise it will help. (I'll sometimes really stretch on finding things to praise, because it can be hard some days! Like a few months ago, she didn't want to brush her teeth because she was too busy running around the house, she happened to run by the bathroom and I praised her profusely for getting within a few feet of her toothbrush...And wouldn't you know it, within a minute she stopped running and went in to brush those teeth.)

 

Along with The Explosive Child, someone on the LC board (yes, please join us!) recommended Kazdin's book, Everyday Parenting Toolkit, which has made a huge difference for us. He also has a book about parenting defiant children, which may be especially helpful for you. :grouphug: I know firsthand how hard this can be, but there are definitely ways to help him and make life easier for all of you...

[OneStepAtATime]

This is my first post. I have only been homeschooling since October of this year. I pulled my kids out of school because my son was diagnosed with dyslexia and the school essentially refused to help him. There is a lot more to the story, but suffice it to say, its been a challenge.

 

I have 3 kids, age 10, 8, and 5. My 10 year old does very well in all subjects and is self-motivated for the most part, and she works independently in everything except math (we chose right start math, so it requires teaching for every lesson). My youngest is also self motivated but obviously she doesn't read yet and requires a lot of interaction every day for every subject. I have tried having my oldest teach her math and reading but it never works and ends up in them fighting. 

 

My son is 8 and has adhd and possibly odd, as well as dyslexia. He is technically in the second grade but reads at a K/1 level and is soooooo challenging. We are using the Barton Reading and Spelling program as a tutoring program, and my mom tutors him 3 days a week. I use AAR 5 days a week. I read everything to him, from his science books to history, and everything in between. He can't even look at a page of work without freaking out in math and he tells me he hates everything all day long. All. Day. Long. I have no time to myself and no time for my girls because he sucks all of it up. He is the most negative person I have been around ever. I have thought about counseling, but its 70 miles one way, so its not all that feasible long term. 

 

All he wants to do all day is zone out on his iPod, doing whatever strikes his fancy. I have no idea how to fix the problem. I have taken the iPod away and he just refuses to even understand the consequence. He literally told me, the last time, "That's just more time for me to torture you." 

 

I feel tapped out. HELP!!!

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

Besides what I posted up thread I just wanted to send you another hug or two...or three.  :)

[Tawlas]

I agree that ADHD should be the first thing to tackle, just wanted to add in that I found some of the resources on this page helpful re dyslexia:

 

http://homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com/

 

 

[Pen]

This is my first post. I have only been homeschooling since October of this year. I pulled my kids out of school because my son was diagnosed with dyslexia and the school essentially refused to help him. There is a lot more to the story, but suffice it to say, its been a challenge.

 

I have 3 kids, age 10, 8, and 5. My 10 year old does very well in all subjects and is self-motivated for the most part, and she works independently in everything except math (we chose right start math, so it requires teaching for every lesson). My youngest is also self motivated but obviously she doesn't read yet and requires a lot of interaction every day for every subject. I have tried having my oldest teach her math and reading but it never works and ends up in them fighting. 

 

My son is 8 and has adhd and possibly odd, as well as dyslexia. He is technically in the second grade but reads at a K/1 level and is soooooo challenging. We are using the Barton Reading and Spelling program as a tutoring program, and my mom tutors him 3 days a week. I use AAR 5 days a week. I read everything to him, from his science books to history, and everything in between. He can't even look at a page of work without freaking out in math and he tells me he hates everything all day long. All. Day. Long. I have no time to myself and no time for my girls because he sucks all of it up. He is the most negative person I have been around ever. I have thought about counseling, but its 70 miles one way, so its not all that feasible long term. 

 

All he wants to do all day is zone out on his iPod, doing whatever strikes his fancy. I have no idea how to fix the problem. I have taken the iPod away and he just refuses to even understand the consequence. He literally told me, the last time, "That's just more time for me to torture you." 

 

I feel tapped out. HELP!!!

 

 

Just remediating with dyslexia is hard work. Cut down everything else.

 

Find a math program that works for him and does not make him freak out (could mean going back to what is easy for him)

 

Let him watch documentaries for science and history, and or let him listen to things like Story of the World on audio recording. Or have some nature study and garden time for science, and really you cannot get "behind" on science and history at the age of 8, so they could be dropped entirely right now and just have math and reading. 

 

Some art time might be nice. Definitely have physical exercise time...plenty of it, and outdoor time.

 

Cut down on screens, iPod etc.

 

Let the reading just be the Barton program.

 

See if you can find some way to work out counseling and evaluation even though it is far. Maybe it could be relatively infrequently, or with some phone help between sessions or something. But it sounds like he and the family do need some outside help.

[mamamoose]

Thank you all for the responses! They are so well thought out and caring and I really appreciate that. I'm not sure I can cover each thing brought up, but one of the issues is we live very remotely, and we have long drives to do anything "extra". He is currently wrestling and doing really great, but its 65 miles one way for practice, 3 times per week. 

 

We are not medicating and don't plan to at this point. I have watched so many kids who failed on medication later in life and really want to avoid medication until we have exhausted all other options, and I don't feel like we are there yet. 

 

My concern with just letting Barton be his reading is my mom lives 45 minutes away and can't come more than 3 times a week. I don't feel like an hour of reading instruction for a kid who is already 2 grades behind is going to catch him up. His lesson with her is short (20 minutes), and I never spend more than 20-30 minutes total in a day working on spelling/reading. We do all of his spelling in color on a dry erase board, sitting on the floor, and he still hates it. We use Right start math and when he's focused, it does seem like he's in the right level. Again, those lessons are short and never longer than 30 minutes. But literally, I suggest playing a game (rummy, go fish, etc) and he says he hates games and doesn't want to play. I am not kidding you, there is no making him happy. And if I try and just let him be, he is disruptive intentionally because he wants attention. 

 

We already don't do science or history, not to speak of. I have a smithsonian book that he got for Valentine's Day that he loves, and he will actually even attempt to read it and that's what we've been counting as both history and science. Literally, if we sat down from start to finish, he could be done with all subjects, including tutoring in 1.5 hours. Instead, he spends so much time fighting that we end up spending 4-5, just getting through it.

 

He hates art. I did a cuneiform project with the girls and he refused to even join us. The girls and I had a blast without him. Then we painted it. He just sulked.

[mamamoose]

A child with ADHD does not refuse to understand consequences. They have a deficit in the part of the brain that regulates impulse control, among other things. Self regulation is extremely difficult and cause and effect don't always compute.

 

This is a good site for parents of ADHD kids: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd

This is a good sight, thank you!

[mamamoose]

You might try an online math program, some kids respond better to a computer teaching them than to mom teaching.

I am considering teaching textbooks, for him, when we finish this right start level.

[maize]

All the negativity could be a sign of depression.

 

Do you live somewhere with short winter days? Could he be impacted by seasonal depression?

 

Increasing his opportunities for physical activity, especially outdoor activity, might help. Since you are in a remote location, look for activities he can do on his own and things you can do as a family. Walking, running, biking, playing frisbee; put up a basketball hoop if you don't have one, get a trampoline and a swing set. We have trampolines all over the place--a big one outdoors, a six foot one in the basement, a little rebounder that gets moved from place to place. I would also suggest fish oil and vitamin D supplements.

 

I know this is hard, but try to see his negativity as a symptom, not an attitude that he can control.

 

Big hugs, I can tell you care deeply and are doing your best to make things work.

[Pen]

Thank you all for the responses! They are so well thought out and caring and I really appreciate that. I'm not sure I can cover each thing brought up, but one of the issues is we live very remotely, and we have long drives to do anything "extra". He is currently wrestling and doing really great, but its 65 miles one way for practice, 3 times per week. 

 

We are not medicating and don't plan to at this point. I have watched so many kids who failed on medication later in life and really want to avoid medication until we have exhausted all other options, and I don't feel like we are there yet. 

 

My concern with just letting Barton be his reading is my mom lives 45 minutes away and can't come more than 3 times a week. I don't feel like an hour of reading instruction for a kid who is already 2 grades behind is going to catch him up. His lesson with her is short (20 minutes), and I never spend more than 20-30 minutes total in a day working on spelling/reading. We do all of his spelling in color on a dry erase board, sitting on the floor, and he still hates it. We use Right start math and when he's focused, it does seem like he's in the right level. Again, those lessons are short and never longer than 30 minutes. But literally, I suggest playing a game (rummy, go fish, etc) and he says he hates games and doesn't want to play. I am not kidding you, there is no making him happy. And if I try and just let him be, he is disruptive intentionally because he wants attention. 

 

We already don't do science or history, not to speak of.

 

Literally, if we sat down from start to finish, he could be done with all subjects, including tutoring in 1.5 hours. Instead, he spends so much time fighting that we end up spending 4-5, just getting through it.

 

He hates art. I did a cuneiform project with the girls and he refused to even join us. The girls and I had a blast without him. Then we painted it. He just sulked.

I accidentally erased a part I wanted to bold and say that's great too! namely the Smithsonian book.

 

 

I did not use Barton, so maybe don't understand, but is there a reason that you can't do that with him when your mom is not available?

 

We used a program called HighNoon and I worked with ds on several short sessions split during the day.

 

I thought we lived remotely, but nothing compared to you. Wow. If you do any therapy, I'd try to put the times for that and whatever else you are doing together. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you all for the responses! They are so well thought out and caring and I really appreciate that. I'm not sure I can cover each thing brought up, but one of the issues is we live very remotely, and we have long drives to do anything "extra". He is currently wrestling and doing really great, but its 65 miles one way for practice, 3 times per week. 

 

We are not medicating and don't plan to at this point. I have watched so many kids who failed on medication later in life and really want to avoid medication until we have exhausted all other options, and I don't feel like we are there yet. 

 

My concern with just letting Barton be his reading is my mom lives 45 minutes away and can't come more than 3 times a week. I don't feel like an hour of reading instruction for a kid who is already 2 grades behind is going to catch him up. His lesson with her is short (20 minutes), and I never spend more than 20-30 minutes total in a day working on spelling/reading. We do all of his spelling in color on a dry erase board, sitting on the floor, and he still hates it. We use Right start math and when he's focused, it does seem like he's in the right level. Again, those lessons are short and never longer than 30 minutes. But literally, I suggest playing a game (rummy, go fish, etc) and he says he hates games and doesn't want to play. I am not kidding you, there is no making him happy. And if I try and just let him be, he is disruptive intentionally because he wants attention. 

 

We already don't do science or history, not to speak of. I have a smithsonian book that he got for Valentine's Day that he loves, and he will actually even attempt to read it and that's what we've been counting as both history and science. Literally, if we sat down from start to finish, he could be done with all subjects, including tutoring in 1.5 hours. Instead, he spends so much time fighting that we end up spending 4-5, just getting through it.

 

He hates art. I did a cuneiform project with the girls and he refused to even join us. The girls and I had a blast without him. Then we painted it. He just sulked.

If your mother felt that Barton wasn't actually doing any good at all then I would say switch to another program entirely instead of using both AAR and Barton.  If your mom feels that Barton is helping, then I really recommend just having him do Barton for now.

 

I tell you this with all sincerity, mixing in another reading program that he also hates, that is using a bit different approach from the very specialized program you are currently having him tutored in, may not help him learn to read.  The programs may end up competing with each other.  Barton is supposed to replace all other language arts through Level 4 for a reason.  Most kids need to unlearn poor reading practices then learn new reading practices that are HARD for them, that they cannot intuit, that take a LOT of time and energy to get down.  Having him also working with another program simultaneously, and one that he really doesn't like, could bog him down and increase his negative attitude (and may already have).  

 

I know you are afraid he will never catch up.  I totally understand that and sympathize.  I was where you are at but I was dealing with a demoralized 6th grader that could barely decode Clifford books.  She HATED reading remediation and didn't believe anything would ever help her.  I feared the same thing.  We were both wrong.  She and I both needed to just keep helping her work to unlearn the poor reading practices she had picked up and give her time to process and internalize the specialized instruction for learning better ones.  It has not been easy but oh my goodness her reading/spelling are 1000% better than when we first started homeschooling in 6th grade.

 

Reading remediation isn't this linear thing where if a person is 2 grade levels behind they must work twice as long each day to catch up.  Think of it like a puzzle.  Most people are given a ton of pieces to the puzzle, maybe most of those are border pieces, and a picture to follow.  Your son was only given a few pieces and they were maybe scattered all over.  He didn't have a picture to guide him, either.  No one's fault.  Its just what he started with.  Now, he is being given a picture to follow, and better fitting pieces.  Give him time to assemble that puzzle.  Don't toss pieces from another puzzle in there to confuse him.

 

Barton covers reading/spelling/grammar/writing.  AFTER Level 4, it is recommended to add in a writing program and additional grammar if you feel it necessary, and outside reading if the child is interested.  Barton is very well thought out.  Give Barton a chance to help.  This process takes time and effort but if you give him that time he has a good chance of catching up.  The levels in Barton are not grade levels.  Level 1 and 2 usually go quite fast (maybe a couple of months for both, sometimes less, sometimes a bit more).  Some of the other levels may only take 3-4 months to complete, sometimes less.  Level 4 usually takes the longest of all 10 levels but some people can get through that one in 6 months or less.  Level 9 and 10 are actually High School level.  At that point it isn't even really reading remediation, it is more advanced material.

 

If your mom is tutoring him in Barton 3 days a week, can't she supply you with the extra practice, spelling and fluency pages from Barton for the days he isn't tutoring with her?  Also, maybe you could order the Barton leveled readers and maybe the Spelling Success card games (depending on what level he is in) and do those for 10-15 min. on days that he is not tutoring?  Just do those things and keep the sessions short.  Reinforce what your mother is doing with him.  That could help a lot with his reading remediation.  

 

I also agree that his strong resistance may very well be depression.  He goes three days a week to do wrestling, I assume in a town or city.  Is there any way that on those days he could also do something else?  Some sort of class that would help him develop a skill or hobby he might enjoy?   Does he have any friends?  Anyone he could hang out with?

[maize]

One thing that happens with ADHD and with learning disorders is that kids get discouraged. They fail and they fail and they fail and they fail. They don't live up to the expectations of the adults around them. A child with dyslexia sees their classmates progressing with apparent ease through material that for them is a terrible struggled. The child with ADHD is often blamed for their behavioral failures. It is easy to start feeling like nothing they do is right and they're going to be in trouble no matter what.

 

There is no incentive to keep trying because they know they are never going to be good enough.

[OneStepAtATime]

One thing that happens with ADHD and with learning disorders is that kids get discouraged. They fail and they fail and they fail and they fail. They don't live up to the expectations of the adults around them. A child with dyslexia sees their classmates progressing with apparent ease through material that for them is a terrible struggled. The child with ADHD is often blamed for their behavioral failures. It is easy to start feeling like nothing they do is right and they're going to be in trouble no matter what.

 

There is no incentive to keep trying because they know they are never going to be good enough.

Agreed. Especially if siblings are breezing through stuff that the child just can't.

[mamamoose]

If your mother felt that Barton wasn't actually doing any good at all then I would say switch to another program entirely instead of using both AAR and Barton.  If your mom feels that Barton is helping, then I really recommend just having him do Barton for now.

 

I tell you this with all sincerity, mixing in another reading program that he also hates, that is using a bit different approach from the very specialized program you are currently having him tutored in, may not help him learn to read.  The programs may end up competing with each other.  Barton is supposed to replace all other language arts through Level 4 for a reason.  Most kids need to unlearn poor reading practices then learn new reading practices that are HARD for them, that they cannot intuit, that take a LOT of time and energy to get down.  Having him also working with another program simultaneously, and one that he really doesn't like, could bog him down and increase his negative attitude (and may already have).  

 

I know you are afraid he will never catch up.  I totally understand that and sympathize.  I was where you are at but I was dealing with a demoralized 6th grader that could barely decode Clifford books.  She HATED reading remediation and didn't believe anything would ever help her.  I feared the same thing.  We were both wrong.  She and I both needed to just keep helping her work to unlearn the poor reading practices she had picked up and give her time to process and internalize the specialized instruction for learning better ones.  It has not been easy but oh my goodness her reading/spelling are 1000% better than when we first started homeschooling in 6th grade.

 

Reading remediation isn't this linear thing where if a person is 2 grade levels behind they must work twice as long each day to catch up.  Think of it like a puzzle.  Most people are given a ton of pieces to the puzzle, maybe most of those are border pieces, and a picture to follow.  Your son was only given a few pieces and they were maybe scattered all over.  He didn't have a picture to guide him, either.  No one's fault.  Its just what he started with.  Now, he is being given a picture to follow, and better fitting pieces.  Give him time to assemble that puzzle.  Don't toss pieces from another puzzle in there to confuse him.

 

Barton covers reading/spelling/grammar/writing.  AFTER Level 4, it is recommended to add in a writing program and additional grammar if you feel it necessary, and outside reading if the child is interested.  Barton is very well thought out.  Give Barton a chance to help.  This process takes time and effort but if you give him that time he has a good chance of catching up.  The levels in Barton are not grade levels.  Level 1 and 2 usually go quite fast (maybe a couple of months for both, sometimes less, sometimes a bit more).  Some of the other levels may only take 3-4 months to complete, sometimes less.  Level 4 usually takes the longest of all 10 levels but some people can get through that one in 6 months or less.  Level 9 and 10 are actually High School level.  At that point it isn't even really reading remediation, it is more advanced material.

 

If your mom is tutoring him in Barton 3 days a week, can't she supply you with the extra practice, spelling and fluency pages from Barton for the days he isn't tutoring with her?  Also, maybe you could order the Barton leveled readers and maybe the Spelling Success card games (depending on what level he is in) and do those for 10-15 min. on days that he is not tutoring?  Just do those things and keep the sessions short.  Reinforce what your mother is doing with him.  That could help a lot with his reading remediation.  

 

I also agree that his strong resistance may very well be depression.  He goes three days a week to do wrestling, I assume in a town or city.  Is there any way that on those days he could also do something else?  Some sort of class that would help him develop a skill or hobby he might enjoy?   Does he have any friends?  Anyone he could hang out with?

AAR and AAS actually are very complimentary to Barton and use the exact same rules and exact method, as far as I've seen so far. They actually track really similarly as well. They are both OG based and I haven't seen anything that is actually any different. the problem isn't the amount of work, or even the kind of work, its any work at all.

 

His dad coaches wrestling and he goes with his dad 3 times a week to practice. There is no extra time in his day as his dad already takes 2 hours off work to make it happen for him. We do have friends, but there isn't much "hang-out" time for any of us, and I'm not driving any more than we already do to make that happen. 

[mamamoose]

Agreed. Especially if siblings are breezing through stuff that the child just can't.

That's not happening.

[OneStepAtATime]

That's not happening.

Thank goodness.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

AAR and AAS actually are very complimentary to Barton and use the exact same rules and exact method, as far as I've seen so far. They actually track really similarly as well. They are both OG based and I haven't seen anything that is actually any different. the problem isn't the amount of work, or even the kind of work, its any work at all.

 

His dad coaches wrestling and he goes with his dad 3 times a week to practice. There is no extra time in his day as his dad already takes 2 hours off work to make it happen for him. We do have friends, but there isn't much "hang-out" time for any of us, and I'm not driving any more than we already do to make that happen. 

Yes, you are correct.  They are both OG based.  AAR/AAS is a good program.  If he wasn't fighting you on it, I wouldn't say drop it out of hand.  I was suggesting dropping it because your son is currently resistant to any work, there are some terms that AAR/AAS use that are different from Barton and they also both use tiles, but the tiles are a bit different so that could be confusing, AAR/AAS moves at a faster pace than Barton and Barton is designed so you don't need to add additional reading/spelling remediation in the early levels.  

 

In other words, since he is really hating it (or any work), I was offering reassurance that you are not doing him a terrible disservice by dropping the AAR side of things.  I won't argue with you on switching to only using Barton.  You obviously need to do what you think is right for your child and I applaud the hard work you are putting in to helping him.  I just wanted to reassure you that if AAR/AAS is a daily battle, then putting that aside for now doesn't mean that your child will never learn to read.  Barton is a good program.  The main thing Susan Barton recommends is at least 2 hours of tutoring in Barton each week.  If he isn't getting 2 hours of tutoring in Barton each week, then maybe just doing some Barton extra practice pages and games on the days he isn't tutoring could help fill in that 2 hour expectation.

 

Whatever you decide is a good course of action for addressing your concerns, I wanted to send you hugs of support and best wishes.

[Pen]

AAR and AAS actually are very complimentary to Barton and use the exact same rules and exact method, as far as I've seen so far. They actually track really similarly as well. They are both OG based and I haven't seen anything that is actually any different. the problem isn't the amount of work, or even the kind of work, its any work at all.

 

His dad coaches wrestling and he goes with his dad 3 times a week to practice. There is no extra time in his day as his dad already takes 2 hours off work to make it happen for him. We do have friends, but there isn't much "hang-out" time for any of us, and I'm not driving any more than we already do to make that happen. 

 

 

From my understanding, AAR/AAS are similar to Barton in both being OF based, but Barton is specifically geared to dyslexia and AAR/AAS not.

 

My experience dealing with a son with dyslexia was that he needed a program specifically geared to dyslexia, even though I chose a different one for him. Also at least at the beginning he was very overwhelmed and having just the one program with its various components worked better for him than mixing things up.

 

Later he got more able to mix things up and we added on some other programs successfully, for example, Read Write Type from Talkingfingers.com was a big help as it worked on typing and also reinforced reading skills--and also allowed work on the computer at his own pace (the main program we used has a computer part now, but did not back when my son used it). Plus he then was in an IEP at the local school where they used a program from, I think, McGraw Hill.  And we also had a brief time with Language! but that was not as good a fit for my son.

 

We had to build up very gradually on what my ds could do with reading, starting at first with just 5 minute sessions. It was cognitively, physically, and emotionally very hard for him.  It worked much better to have a 5 minute success than a longer failure and built him up to be able to handle more. Between the sessions, he was mainly free to do what he wanted to do.

 

It is also possible that the  Barton / strict OG approach is not a good fit for your son. They are not the only options.

 

The math program that worked best for my ds back then was Math U See--the lay out was very dyslexia friendly. He could do it all on his own except word problems which he needed me to read.  For him, TT was too jangly and visually over-stimulating.

[Pen]

In above I meant OG based, OF = typo.

[OneStepAtATime]

From my understanding, AAR/AAS are similar to Barton in both being OF based, but Barton is specifically geared to dyslexia and AAR/AAS not.

 

My experience dealing with a son with dyslexia was that he needed a program specifically geared to dyslexia, even though I chose a different one for him. Also at least at the beginning he was very overwhelmed and having just the one program with its various components worked better for him than mixing things up.

 

Later he got more able to mix things up and we added on some other programs successfully, for example, Read Write Type from Talkingfingers.com was a big help as it worked on typing and also reinforced reading skills--and also allowed work on the computer at his own pace (the main program we used has a computer part now, but did not back when my son used it). Plus he then was in an IEP at the local school where they used a program from, I think, McGraw Hill.  And we also had a brief time with Language! but that was not as good a fit for my son.

 

We had to build up very gradually on what my ds could do with reading, starting at first with just 5 minute sessions. It was cognitively, physically, and emotionally very hard for him.  It worked much better to have a 5 minute success than a longer failure and built him up to be able to handle more. Between the sessions, he was mainly free to do what he wanted to do.

 

It is also possible that the  Barton / strict OG approach is not a good fit for your son. They are not the only options.

 

The math program that worked best for my ds back then was Math U See--the lay out was very dyslexia friendly. He could do it all on his own except word problems which he needed me to read.  For him, TT was too jangly and visually over-stimulating.

Good points.

[Pen]

Also to add, during my son's reading remediation, we worked on it 7 days per week, no vacations until he became a reader, but never in longer sessions than 1/2 hour per day, and only that much after building up to it. And at the start of his reading remediation, it was a summer time and no other school work was being done at all. And that was all he could handle. It was really intensive for him to be doing that remediation work.

[maize]

I think putting all other schoolwork on the back burner while remediating reading is an excellent idea.

Edited March 7, 2016 by maize

[Targhee]

I think simplification and focus is a good idea. Also, give yourself and him some repair time. He's probably feeling pretty lousy about himself (and I'm sure you're discourage as parent and teacher). Reframing the dynamic in your relation to give positive intent to him, as well as positive feedback, will go far in helping him with behavior. It won't cure ADHD, but it will likely make him feel it's worth trying again.

[mamamoose]

To be honest, its not the ADHD or the dyslexia, its the constant negative attitude about anything. Its not at all just school related, even. I don't know, maybe I do need to make seeing a counselor a priority right now. Its just SOOO much for the entire family to have to participate in, I don't have a sitter for counseling time, etc.

 

ETA: What else is out there that is good for education for him? He is excellent at math, and retains information extremely well, when he's not mad because its school related. We are all done with school today and we did all subjects (he doesn't have tutoring on Tuesdays, so we have AAS/AAR and it took 2 hours total. He was in a decent mood, obviously and even had fun during math.

Edited March 8, 2016 by mamamoose

[Targhee]

To be honest, its not the ADHD or the dyslexia, its the constant negative attitude about anything. Its not at all just school related, even. I don't know, maybe I do need to make seeing a counselor a priority right now. Its just SOOO much for the entire family to have to participate in, I don't have a sitter for counseling time, etc.

 

ETA: What else is out there that is good for education for him? He is excellent at math, and retains information extremely well, when he's not mad because its school related. We are all done with school today and we did all subjects (he doesn't have tutoring on Tuesdays, so we have AAS/AAR and it took 2 hours total. He was in a decent mood, obviously and even had fun during math.

I don't presume to know your child, and the dynamic in your home, so please take my persistence on this idea for what it is: I really wish I had discovered this much earlier, and wish the same for all parents who struggle with behaviorally challenging kids.  If you really don't think this is applicable to your situation then disregard. And accept my apologies.

 

Because of the ADHD and the dyslexia, the probable discouragement and feelings of failure or feelings of inadequacy on the part of your son may have reached such a level (especially since ADHD kids tend to react more extremely to criticism, intended or only perceived) that he feels it is no longer worth trying.  Kids with ADHD also have a high comorbidity of anxiety and depression, which in kids often manifests in irritability and inability to be joyful about things.  It could be any number of other things, honestly, food, or what not, but the point is this - Kids do Well if They Can, and if they aren't doing well there is probably something in the way (a lagging skill or an unsolved problem) which, by addressing methodically and collaboratively, can be helped thereby helping them to respond adaptively (i.e. behave themselves). LivesInTheBalance.org

 

I really do wish you the best!

[maize]

"Kids do well if they can" --this deserves to be repeated!

 

Sometimes our job as parents is to play investigator--try to figure out what it is that is dragging our kid down academically, or behaviorally, or in any other way.

[mamamoose]

"Kids do well if they can" --this deserves to be repeated!

 

Sometimes our job as parents is to play investigator--try to figure out what it is that is dragging our kid down academically, or behaviorally, or in any other way.

Oh believe me, most of my day is spent trying to figure out why his mood is what it is! Haha...Its not easy job, that's for sure!

[Tiramisu]

You know about the iPod, it's satisfying a need. It's an escape. I recently watched a video on video game addiction by Asperger Experts and it really resonated with me. You don't mention a spectrum issue, but I think it couldn't hurt to watch the video to help you understand what need the iPod is satisfying. I would guess it could be an anxiety or sensory thing and the iPod allows him to control his enviromental stimulus.

[Pen]

I think I'll post this in a separate thread somewhere, but I have been reading an interesting book about "Dyslogic" syndromes (a bunch of things from autism to ADHD to learning challenges get mentioned under that category). It might apply. It takes more of a physical rather than emotional approach in terms of what to do about it.

[maize]

I think I'll post this in a separate thread somewhere, but I have been reading an interesting book about "Dyslogic" syndromes (a bunch of things from autism to ADHD to learning challenges get mentioned under that category). It might apply. It takes more of a physical rather than emotional approach in terms of what to do about it.

 

I'm interested in this, if you start a thread could you link it here please?

[mamamoose]

You know about the iPod, it's satisfying a need. It's an escape. I recently watched a video on video game addiction by Asperger Experts and it really resonated with me. You don't mention a spectrum issue, but I think it couldn't hurt to watch the video to help you understand what need the iPod is satisfying. I would guess it could be an anxiety or sensory thing and the iPod allows him to control his enviromental stimulus.

Well, he doesn't play any video games. Its watching tv programs. I think its an entertainment need that books could fill if reading weren't so difficult. He actually finds video games frustrating! I am interested in watching it though.

[mamamoose]

I think I'll post this in a separate thread somewhere, but I have been reading an interesting book about "Dyslogic" syndromes (a bunch of things from autism to ADHD to learning challenges get mentioned under that category). It might apply. It takes more of a physical rather than emotional approach in terms of what to do about it.

Yes, please link it here? Thank you! 

 

We are looking at neurofeedback for him, as was recommended by my physician. I'm not sure if its related, but he has SO many issues (dysgraphia, dyslexia, ADHD, anxiety, etc), I think its worth checking into.

[maize]

Well, he doesn't play any video games. Its watching tv programs. I think its an entertainment need that books could fill if reading weren't so difficult. He actually finds video games frustrating! I am interested in watching it though.

 

My 8 year old dyslexic/adhd child listens to audiobooks. Lots of sources: audible, library, librivox https://librivox.org/, learning ally http://www.learningally.org/ , bookshare https://www.bookshare.org/cms 

 

Library is free, librivox is free, bookshare is free but you need proof of dyslexia or other disability that affects reading.

[SarahW]

My kid doesn't have as many issues going on as yours does, but just some points to consider - 

 

I understand the desire to focus on remediating weaknesses and trying to bring that up as quickly as possible. I mean, if you can get that one thing fixed, their life will be a lot easier. But kids don't see that. And if all of your daily schoolwork does nothing but focus on their weakness, they will feel very bad about the whole thing. As my kid put it to me one time "Schoolwork is nothing but a bunch of boring stuff that I hate." This made me crazy at the time, because I was trying really, really hard to find things that were fun and appealing, but in retrospect I see that most of what I had chosen only magnified his weaknesses.

 

My kid is good at math, he finds math easy, and he knows that he's good at it. This gives him a lot of confidence. So nearly half of our "school" time is spent on math. It seems crazy, to put so much time on something he's already good at and working ahead in, when other things are lagging. But it is something which makes him feel psychologically confident enough to work on his weaknesses. I do short, targeted lessons on his area of weakness between his math times, and I make sure that his math work is not hampered by his weaknesses. I've come to see that he has real issues with inferencing and sequencing, so when Math Mammoth made him mad because he couldn't understand the directions, I dropped it. There's no point to making him mad about math because of something that isn't even math. Now I try very hard to support his interest in math and science with things which capitalize on his strengths. So documentaries, videos, reading aloud from a higher level book, etc. and requiring minimal to none output from him other than oral discussion.

 

My kiddo is also not positive about math games and other "fun" things. He sees them as worthless contrivances designed to make his life difficult. Games also open the possibility that he won't win, no matter how hard he tries. Which reminds him of all the other things he doesn't "win" at, even though he tries really hard. And this has been difficult for him to emotionally deal with, though it has lessened recently.

 

I understand you have a lot going on, and also need to spend time with your other children. But I suggest you explore his desires and strengths a bit, and see what he responds to. I've made my kid accounts for Khan Academy, Scratch, Duolingo, etc. and had him give them a good go. Some he decided to drop, some he kept with, and some he now asks to do during his free time. You can also explore how he responds to things like puzzles, gardening, baking, snap circuits, tanagrams, etc. etc. etc. Anything that circumvents his weaknesses and lets him build up mastery of something.

 

And lots and lots of praise and encouragement. My DH has ADHD, and he wants me to praise him for every.little.d*mn.thing. "You cooked breakfast today (just like I've done every morning in recent memory without anyone really noticing)! Good job! Thanks!" It drives me a bit crazy. But if I don't do it he gets super-pouty, and a pouty husband is more annoying than remembering to dish out praise all the time, so I do try to remember to do the praise.

[Pen]

link to the thread i started re the book I recommended taking a look at:

 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/591651-dyslogic-syndrome-why-millions-of-kids-are-hyper-attention-disordered-learning-disabled-depressed-aggressive-defiant-or-violent-what-we-ca/

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

I'm interested in this, if you start a thread could you link it here please?

 

 

Yes, please link it here? Thank you! 

 

We are looking at neurofeedback for him, as was recommended by my physician. I'm not sure if its related, but he has SO many issues (dysgraphia, dyslexia, ADHD, anxiety, etc), I think its worth checking into.

 

 

Link is in post above this one.  

 

I think where there are a bunch of things going on at once it is probably especially likely that there has been something that affected the brain.  Also there are a lot of people esp on the Learning Challenges part of these boards who are dealing with one child with ____ and another with _____ type situations, so maybe not two things in one child, but more than one thing going on in the family.

 

Although I also think that some things of a primarily emotional nature like PTSD can also create such strong effects that even the body can become affected, so I think it can go both ways.   Or even that there can be a bad downward spiral of physical issues and emotional ones making each other worse and worse (for example, if a physical cause provoked a depression which created a cascade of damaging brain chemicals, and also led to not eating well which meant that there would be fewer nutrients to repair the damage...)   And some things could simultaneously cause both physical and emotional injuries, such as a war situation where there was both emotional PTSD and also various physical assaults from lead bullets contaminating the ground even if not actually shot (or worse radioactivity) and so on.

 

In the thread about Charles Ingalls, I was even wondering about how much he was exposed to lead, making his own bullets and hunting, and probably from quite early childhood he was at least exposed to and helped his own father with bullet making. I remember being a bit shocked about little Laura helping with the molten lead.

[mamamoose]

My kid doesn't have as many issues going on as yours does, but just some points to consider - 

 

I understand the desire to focus on remediating weaknesses and trying to bring that up as quickly as possible. I mean, if you can get that one thing fixed, their life will be a lot easier. But kids don't see that. And if all of your daily schoolwork does nothing but focus on their weakness, they will feel very bad about the whole thing. As my kid put it to me one time "Schoolwork is nothing but a bunch of boring stuff that I hate." This made me crazy at the time, because I was trying really, really hard to find things that were fun and appealing, but in retrospect I see that most of what I had chosen only magnified his weaknesses.

 

My kid is good at math, he finds math easy, and he knows that he's good at it. This gives him a lot of confidence. So nearly half of our "school" time is spent on math. It seems crazy, to put so much time on something he's already good at and working ahead in, when other things are lagging. But it is something which makes him feel psychologically confident enough to work on his weaknesses. I do short, targeted lessons on his area of weakness between his math times, and I make sure that his math work is not hampered by his weaknesses. I've come to see that he has real issues with inferencing and sequencing, so when Math Mammoth made him mad because he couldn't understand the directions, I dropped it. There's no point to making him mad about math because of something that isn't even math. Now I try very hard to support his interest in math and science with things which capitalize on his strengths. So documentaries, videos, reading aloud from a higher level book, etc. and requiring minimal to none output from him other than oral discussion.

 

My kiddo is also not positive about math games and other "fun" things. He sees them as worthless contrivances designed to make his life difficult. Games also open the possibility that he won't win, no matter how hard he tries. Which reminds him of all the other things he doesn't "win" at, even though he tries really hard. And this has been difficult for him to emotionally deal with, though it has lessened recently.

 

I understand you have a lot going on, and also need to spend time with your other children. But I suggest you explore his desires and strengths a bit, and see what he responds to. I've made my kid accounts for Khan Academy, Scratch, Duolingo, etc. and had him give them a good go. Some he decided to drop, some he kept with, and some he now asks to do during his free time. You can also explore how he responds to things like puzzles, gardening, baking, snap circuits, tanagrams, etc. etc. etc. Anything that circumvents his weaknesses and lets him build up mastery of something.

 

And lots and lots of praise and encouragement. My DH has ADHD, and he wants me to praise him for every.little.d*mn.thing. "You cooked breakfast today (just like I've done every morning in recent memory without anyone really noticing)! Good job! Thanks!" It drives me a bit crazy. But if I don't do it he gets super-pouty, and a pouty husband is more annoying than remembering to dish out praise all the time, so I do try to remember to do the praise.

This is great advice and a good reminder. I do feel like we do a lot of the stuff he likes, but its a "never enough" kind of thing. If we watch a documentary one day, he throws a gigantic fit the next because its not on the agenda. I am seriously considering a computer based math something or other and hope to find time to check out the other stuff. He is dysgraphic as well so puzzles are very frustrating. I will take a look at some of your other suggestions though!